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Author Topic: NDP's core is more of a fringe
Common Sense New Democrat
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 20 September 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for Common Sense New Democrat        Edit/Delete Post
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=30cbc325-91d2-44c5-803f-fa535a0103c6&k=13340

An interesting perspective from mainstream media on the Federal NDP convention. bottom line -- this display may not translate into many votes at the polls next time.


From: East Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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Babbler # 3138

posted 20 September 2006 04:03 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know about you, but I don't consider the National Post to be be "mainstream media". They are about as far on the extreme right as the Socialist Worker is on the far left so I consider anything they have to say about the NDP to be quite worthless.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
indiemuse
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Babbler # 12564

posted 20 September 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for indiemuse     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Common Sense New Democrat:

An interesting perspective from mainstream media on the Federal NDP convention. bottom line -- this display may not translate into many votes at the polls next time.

Ha! Look at the source. You know CSND, looking over your recent posts, I'd be about ready to call you a troll - to bad I'm not a moderator.


From: The exception to every rule . . . | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Common Sense New Democrat
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posted 20 September 2006 04:15 PM      Profile for Common Sense New Democrat        Edit/Delete Post
Well I'd be about ready to call you a number of things as well... but I'm not a troll
From: East Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6194

posted 20 September 2006 04:25 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How about reformatory flying monkey..i think that fits the bill.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Common Sense New Democrat
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13200

posted 20 September 2006 04:28 PM      Profile for Common Sense New Democrat        Edit/Delete Post
Feel free to label yourself all you want for all I care. But please don't ascribe labels to other people... such bigoted behaviour has no place in progressive circles such as these.
From: East Vancouver | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fartful Codger
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Babbler # 9019

posted 20 September 2006 04:32 PM      Profile for Fartful Codger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do we
Assume that a banned poster has
Graciously returned
Maliciously suggesting others' opinions are
Antithetical to
Reason
?

From: In my chair | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
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Babbler # 6061

posted 20 September 2006 04:33 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Boy you are on a passive aggresive troll run today aren't you (Lack of) Common Sense.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 20 September 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isn't this thread and its title prima facie evidence that the originator of the thread is mis-representing him/herself as an NDPer? Doesn't that violate a babble rule of some kind? I seem to remember a Green Party supporter expressing objections to someone doing the same thing in relation to the party that he supports.
From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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Babbler # 518

posted 20 September 2006 05:08 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh it's ok. Communist Party members get to be anonymous here, and anyone who points it out gets criticized for redbaiting.

So, let everyone just pretend.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 20 September 2006 05:16 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
jeff house: Oh it's ok. Communist Party members get to be anonymous here, and anyone who points it out gets criticized for redbaiting.

Argg. My point was that our newcomer seems to be misrepresenting himself as an NDPer. If Commies want to be anonymous ... isn't that a different sort of issue? It's not like they're pretending to be Commies, eh?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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Babbler # 5594

posted 20 September 2006 05:32 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There's no need for commies to masquerade behind aliases or pen names. Persecution of commies just doesn't happen anymore. At least I don't believe it does. Besides, my middle name really is Fidel. And since joining rabble, I often introduce myself to new coworkers, supervisors and Homeland security feds at the border by this same moniker as an ice breaker.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
libertarian
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Babbler # 6136

posted 20 September 2006 05:45 PM      Profile for libertarian        Edit/Delete Post
Just because the article in question comes from the NP does not mean its assertions are incorrect.
How many of you actually read the article?

From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 20 September 2006 05:54 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by libertarian:
Just because the article in question comes from the NP does not mean its assertions are incorrect.
How many of you actually read the article?

I haven't read it, but I think it sucks.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 518

posted 20 September 2006 05:54 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read it. It's a hack job which would interest only morons.

Here's a sample:

quote:
From the party that compared Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan to terrorists, another great idea: a Trans (gender) Day of Remembrance to be held every November -- presumably when the rest of us are paying tribute to those who made the ultimate sacrifice.


Notice that word, "presumably"? That is a technique to permit the author to misrepresent the resolution he is referring to.....presumably to cover his own involvement in white slavery.

See how easy it is? You just invent a "fact", prefact it with the word "presumably", and away you go!

Luckily you use a nom de plume, "presumably" to avoid embarassment at being unable to recognise propaganda when it smacks you in the face.

The thing about the NDP comparing soldiers to terrorists is a lie, too.

[ 20 September 2006: Message edited by: jeff house ]


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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Babbler # 7791

posted 20 September 2006 05:58 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I haven't read it, but I think it sucks.



From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 20 September 2006 06:02 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by libertarian:
Just because the article in question comes from the NP does not mean its assertions are incorrect.

Ok, I still haven't read the article (because I decided it sucks), but I thought I'd be fair and test libertarian's assertion, so I opened the link, pointed my cursor at random, and it landed on this:

quote:
the sheer number of dumb ideas coming from the NDP grassroots suggests the policy convention is going to resemble the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.

Well, I checked that out:

I'm trying to be open-minded here, but I don't see the resemblance.

Libertarian, are you telling me I have to read the WHOLE article? Please say no. Please, pretty please.

[Edited to add correct convention photo, with thanks to the grey.]

[ 20 September 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
the grey
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posted 20 September 2006 06:14 PM      Profile for the grey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I did read the article, and noted that most of the resolutions complained about seem to come from Durham. Anyone familiar with the party knows that Durham always sends fringe resolutions, and that Durham always loses.

BTW, Unionist - that pic isn't from the NDP convention in Quebec City. Quebec City had rectangular tables, not round ones.


From: London, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 20 September 2006 06:24 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by the grey:

BTW, Unionist - that pic isn't from the NDP convention in Quebec City. Quebec City had rectangular tables, not round ones.

Thanks, grey. I edited in an actual photo from the Québec convention, but now it's starting to look as if the article may have been accurate... Except for the top hat of course...

Oh well, maybe I'll read the article after all. But it's so sucky.

[ 20 September 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
marzo
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posted 20 September 2006 06:28 PM      Profile for marzo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Consider the source. In the National Post, they print articles that call warnings about global climate change 'junk science' and considered the Mike Harris government in Ontario some kind of 'golden age' of freedom and prosperity. The writers of the Post and their followers believe in capitalism as a moral absolute and will say that any limits to personal greed are 'looney' or 'against freedom'.
The opinions in the Post don't deserve to be taken seriously.

From: toronto | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 20 September 2006 06:34 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've read a number of amusing articles by literary types, poets and so on, along the lines of "I was a slut for The National Post" and they've been a good read. Perhaps, like the Devil, the National Post is a necessary evil?

OK. I don't really believe that. But I've taken cash from similar institutions, such as Chapters, for poetry readings and the like.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
brightorange
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posted 20 September 2006 08:16 PM      Profile for brightorange     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not sure anybody in the NDP would expect the National Post to say anything positive about the NDP. I can still imagine the NDP copying the Conservative platform and calling it ours and the National Post would still call it fringe and extreme.
From: Sask | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 20 September 2006 08:26 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why would anyone want to read the national post ?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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Babbler # 13076

posted 20 September 2006 09:29 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Just because the article in question comes from the NP does not mean its assertions are incorrect.
How many of you actually read the article?

Well I skimmed over it, and as other have said here it's the typical loony stupid corporate capitalist dictatorship ranting off with little, if any, fact.

The National Post (I call it the Nazi Post because that's about it's philosophy and level of intelligence) is part of the Global CanWest media empire--a totalitarian tyranny that makes its editorial policy based largely on bald-faced lies, religious adherence to idiotic and oppressive corporate capitalist economics and total worship of the imperialistic foreign policies of the US government/Corporate America.

If you live in BC, where the Global CanWest dictatorship has its most centralized monopoly, you see this pushed to the max every day.
There's nothing "mainstream" (to the extent there is such as thing) about the NP or any of the Global CanWest media outlets.

This is the same media that calls BC's record job creation and wage rates, as well as consumer spending and savings, ecological, labour and human rights standards, health care and education sustainable economic development and new sectors during the NDP government the "dismal decade."

Meanwhile, it calls the current falling wages rates, stagnant consumer spending and record consumer debt, and record poverty levels, as well as authoritarian government secrecy and corruption the "golden decade" and a "boom."

It's the same media the still wants us to believe there really were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and Chancellor Bush was right to invade (while censoring the fact the US government put Saddam Hussein in power and supported his brutal reign for years).

It still insists the US is "liberating" Afghanistan, despite the fact that the US funded and trained and Taliban and Al Qaeda for years, and is now propping up a fraudulent regime there made up largely of the same type of people.

It's the media that fanatically supports the brutal polices of the WTO and IMF and destructive trade and investment regimes like NAFTA, FTAA and the MAI.

It lies about everything from who really creates the markets and jobs in our economy to who works and who doesn't. It still thinks the Kyoto protocols are some weird science.

It's dictatorial bosses, like Conrad Black and the late Izzy Asper, are on record saying that "freedom of the press" means the absolute privilege of the corporate bosses to dictate what information gets released and what gets censored and the truth and balance be damned.

Izzy is even on record saying that anyone who criticizes the Israeli government is anti-Semitic, even if they are Jewish. His son Leonard, also a CanWest big boss, has said if the US invades Canada he will lend them a hand.

And, most importantly, they are known for proudly firing, demoting, re-assigning, harassing or otherwise punishing any journalist or media worker who disagrees with them.

That is the totalitarian parasitic corporate loony fringe that dictatorially controls the biggest media empire in the country.

The only reason why it has any force is because it enjoys such a suffocating lock on the media and information systems in the country.

And this is who the NDP is supposed to look to for guidance and reference?

Get a life. The goal of the NDP is, and always has been, to defy these parasitic affronts to democracy and discredit them and all they stand for.

I have been working for years to develop independent working class public interest and democratic oriented media that actually reports facts and information, instead of making it up or twisting it around to suit dictatorial corporate special interests and their loony economics.

If anything, the NDP needs to bring its CCF democratic socialist fundamental back to the forefront and start using its political ties to the labour, cooperative, CED, credit union, social justice and ecological movements to build a viable sustainable democratic media that can punch these lying corporate lunatics out--just like we did to the banks by setting credit unions, or to the agricultural cartels by setting up the cooperative wheat pools, or, more recently, to the elite investment house parasites by setting up labour-sponsored venture capital funds, and on and on.

We need to ridicule and laugh at the NP as we expose them for what they are, not do what they tell us to do.

Sorry for the long rant, but this just has to be said!


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 21 September 2006 12:41 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Oh it's ok. Communist Party members get to be anonymous here, and anyone who points it out gets criticized for redbaiting.

So, let everyone just pretend.


Uh, actually Jeff(assuming it actually is JEFF, that is)ANYBODY who wants to be anonymous on Babble is permitted to do so.

Why on earth, at this stage of the game, are you uptight about COMMUNISTS posting here? Is there some risk that Babble may become an outpost of...of...OK, could somebody tell me if there's still anyplace that communists could turn Babble into an outpost of?

We could probably rule out North Korea for a start, since none of us wear our hair like Kim Jong Il(at least I HOPE not).


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Policywonk
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posted 21 September 2006 01:33 AM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not too surprising that the NP attacks the idea of a moratorium on oil sands development. This is rather misleading though. The energy paper passed at Convention called for a moratorium on future development until certain conditions are met. Even Peter Lougheed is calling for such a moratorium. While perhaps not quite a mainstream idea in Alberta, it is hardly on the fringe. No-one, except perhaps Ralph Klein, can deny the negative social, environmental and economic impacts of oil sands development.

Of course the NP would probably never run such a story on the looney resolutions at a Conservative convention.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Policywonk
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posted 21 September 2006 01:43 AM      Profile for Policywonk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Note to CSND: You might have fewer people accusing you of trolling if you added a question mark to the topic. Referring to the NP as "mainstream media" and using the "bottom line" terminology doesn't help either.
From: Edmonton | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 September 2006 02:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see you guys found a new pet. Perhaps Michelle will let you keep this one...
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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Babbler # 7791

posted 21 September 2006 03:43 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Why would anyone want to read the national post ?.

Sometimes it's not by choice. When I stay at the Quality Hotel on Rideau at King Edward (it's the easiest place to get to in Ottawa) a copy of the NP lands at your door around 5am every morning. The Globe is also available (for free) in the lobby.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kevin_Laddle
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Babbler # 8163

posted 21 September 2006 04:43 AM      Profile for Kevin_Laddle   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Common Sense New Democrat, is their a single issue you agree with the NDP (you know, that party you supposedly belong to) on? From the viewpoints you have expressed here, one can only conclude you'd be a far better fit in another party. Now, I have no problems accepting a free vote if you genuinely want to support the NDP. But I don't believe you for a second. You are lying through your teeth and playing political games here.
From: ISRAEL IS A TERRORIST STATE. ASK THE FAMILIES OF THE QANA MASSACRE VICTIMS. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 21 September 2006 04:57 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's gone now. No sense in responding to him now.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 21 September 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, OK. Didn't know. Which leads me to a thread I'm going to open in "Rabble Reactions".
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
jerysb1980
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 21 September 2006 07:00 PM      Profile for jerysb1980     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
IF National Post is saying is true, wow ndp sure is full of wackos. nationalizing finacial industry, oil and gas, health care?!? it's understandable canadians don't trust the ndp with the economy.
From: calgary | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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Babbler # 6194

posted 21 September 2006 07:31 PM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where are they coming from? Did Harper slither out from under his rock and release the entire brood of flying monkey reformatory snakes with him? The NP and all the Southam newchain are such a joke. What was once an OK paper chain is now just corporate shilling. I think I see maybe 1 issue a month(so like 4% of the time) that I might not disagree with my paper. This is usually a municpal matter to boot. Which doesn't fall under the umbrella of heir Asper.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 21 September 2006 08:11 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the humorous and telling address by President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela has got all the neocon hornets and wasps buzzing angrily out of their nests and holes in the ground. In particular the skyrocketing sales of Chomsky's fine book, the stunning lesson in socialist marketing, is probably driving a few neocons mad with jealousy and rage.

Apparently the American people aren't as dumb or reactionary as some would have them.

[ 21 September 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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Babbler # 13076

posted 22 September 2006 01:37 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
IF National Post is saying is true, wow ndp sure is full of wackos. nationalizing finacial industry, oil and gas, health care?!? it's understandable canadians don't trust the ndp with the economy.

First, as has been shown here before, very little of what the National Post says about anything is true.

Second, the NDP doesn't just seek nationalization of the financial industry (actually the five big banks), but the democratization of it--as in credit unions and similar cooperative businesses.

THe booming success of Canada's credit unions, which were started mostly by NDPers, is proof that this is a good idea.

The whackos are the corporate apologists who want to continue to have most of the nation's capital under the dictatorial thumb of profiteering private banks--which consistently hold economies all over the world at ransom. We see every day the harm that does.

Third, the NDP supports full public ownership of resources, like oil and gas with appropriate compensation to the public for the marketing of those resources--extracted preferably by local union and/or cooperative Canadian-based enterprises. Some of those public revenues can then be invested in new clean sustainable energy technology and production development.

The whackos, on the other hand, want to keep everything under the dictatorial control of multi=national corporations and their global energy cartels that literally starve economies and spread poverty and debt.

Fourth, on health care, anybody with one eye and 1/10 of a brain can see universal public health care is not only a fundamental democratic right, but by any measure a far better economic deal. Just compare health care quality, costs and availability between even our half-assed (thanks to Liberal and Conservative governments) public system and the private one in the US.

The whackos, seeking pay-offs and promotions in giant private health insurance firms, support the stupid US-style one.

Then again, the Post and all the Global CanWest media empire is run by a clique of whackos. What else can you expect from these types?


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
2 ponies
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posted 22 September 2006 11:39 AM      Profile for 2 ponies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steppenwolf, do you have to belittle people to make your arguments? I agree that the National Post is a poor excuse for journalism and reporting. And I read it maybe twice a year if I happen to get a free copy. But to refer to them as Nazi’s (clearing proving Godwin’s law relatively early on in this thread)…isn’t that a little extreme and unfair? I skimmed through the article and it’s unfair, poorly written and a sorry excuse for journalism, editorial, even opinion sharing. It unfairly labels all NDP members as recently coming back from vacation in Wonderland, amongst other silly things.

I don’t want to be argumentative, but to imply that people who support private healthcare have less than 1/10 of a brain cell isn’t very progressive as far as I’m concerned. I don’t support private healthcare for various reasons…but I don’t presume that people who do lack any intelligence. How is that any different than right-wing fundamentalists implying that progressive people and leftists are idiots for supporting social-democratic or socialist ideology? It just seems to me that what you’ve said in the past couple of posts is analogous to how right-wingers label NDPers as idiots, dreamers, etc for caring about people and trying to find a way for each other to work together and have benefits shared by as many people as possible.

I disagree with the suggestion that the NDP’s core is a fringe. I think that’s a nonsensical suggestion for anyone to make, especially if they’ve taken the time to look into the party a bit. I’ve been at more than enough NDP functions in the past 20 years to know that there is a lot of diversity in the party. The Post isn’t doing anyone any favours by writing crap in their paper. But to belittle everyone who “thinks like” the Post as idiots, small-minded, uneducated, or whatever is pretty ignorant and not very progressive at all. People won’t be convinced that progressive ideals and principles are the wisest ones to support by belittling those who don’t support them. Without reasoned debate we go nowhere. If we’re going to play the “everyone else is stupid” game we may as well just have fist-fights to determine who’s right and who’s wrong. Prove the inaccuracies, the assumptions, use facts to take credence away from the right-wing’s arguments, critique opinions, but don’t use sandbox arguments like “My dad can beat up your dad.” It doesn’t add any merit to the cause of progressive people who are just trying to make the world a better place.


From: Sask | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
jerysb1980
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13237

posted 22 September 2006 12:52 PM      Profile for jerysb1980     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i hope jack layton propose that soon. let's see what the rest of canada thinks.
From: calgary | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
jerysb1980
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posted 22 September 2006 12:54 PM      Profile for jerysb1980     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh yeah 2 ponies, my grandma in france has to pay for some private health insurance and most doctors are in the private sector. they work for themselves. I haven't seen the end of europe cause of that.
From: calgary | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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posted 24 September 2006 01:48 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well hello there 2 Ponies. Good posts on the other threads!

quote:
Steppenwolf, do you have to belittle people to make your arguments?

I don't belittle anyone to make my arguments. If you read my posts, you will that I actually try to take the time to provide facts, perspectives, sources and quotes to help make me points and sometimes post links for reference if folks are interested.

But I do belittle people who hurl out put-downs and grossly inaccurate statements with out any backing in a manner clearly intended to insult, dismiss or show disrespect with clearly no intention of discussing anything.

I was reading this site for a couple months before becoming a participant. It's obvious the Rabble is routinely spammed and flooded by waves (which I sometimes think are coordinated) of arrogant and either self-aggrandizing show-offs or cons, or simply anti-social democratic corporatists and other "right-wingers" who come here not to discuss but to insult and vilify and repeat the standard corporate media BS to people, and even insult them in the process (like some we've had here recently).

I see no need to be pleasant or lenient with these types at all. One thing is a discussion about differing philosophies and perspectives. A poke in the eye is another. I don't want to waste time coaxing people to debate respectfully, when they make it clear that this is not their intent.

An example:

quote:
oh yeah 2 ponies, my grandma in france has to pay for some private health insurance and most doctors are in the private sector. they work for themselves. I haven't seen the end of europe cause of that.

This is someone who started off by calling the NDPers, which includes lots of people here, "whackos," and blindly repeating what the National Post says.

Now this poster is giving you the finger and making totally factless claims about the French health care system.

It took me less than ten minutes on the net to find two summaries based on info from the French government that show that country has an almost total universal public health care system that gives people maximum free choice and involvement in their care.

Doctors are either state employees or dependent contractors, or are working for various non-profit cooperative associations and/or joint agencies set up by unions and employers.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/bb2France.php

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2005/04/health_care_fra.html

And, according to these reports, France and most other European health care systems, which are overwhelmingly universal public and cooperative systems, leave us, and even more so the US, in the dust.

Now if compare this info with what the poster is so harshly and dismissively saying, and call it BS and ask just who is whacko on these matters, why is that non-progressive?

I'll address your points on the National Post later.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
ebunny
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12823

posted 24 September 2006 03:49 AM      Profile for ebunny        Edit/Delete Post
I read the article and thought a few of them were good ideas.
I'm all for Extending Healthcare to cover Autistic learning programs for children and the combining of the Greens and NDP might boost the parties outcome.
A few things I would like to see brought to the table by the left:

1. Increase tax on larger vehicles and gas. At the same time cut taxes all together for Public transit Corp. So that a bus ride won't cost me $3.00 every time I get on the bus. Heck I like that policy in London where it costs money to drive your car in the downtown core.

2.Make it law for all vehicles to be Hybrids by 2015.

3.Increase spending on the research for renewable resources. In effect we would be investing not only in our environment, but also in our economy (it could become an export).

4.Streamline Healthcare. I like going to the Emergency and not having to pay for stitches.

5. Make it mandatory for all education boards to teach Financial Management in Highschool; including how to invest, how taxation works, how to manage debt and loans.

What can I say, I am socially and fiscally conservative but there are some things, mainly Health and Environment, you got to get from 'accross the street'. If the Greens joined the NDP, those million votes could add a lot of seats in the House.

Edited for spelling

[ 24 September 2006: Message edited by: ebunny ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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Babbler # 8346

posted 24 September 2006 05:22 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should come as little surprise that, according to his profile, the soon-to-be-banned jerseyb1980 is from Calgary.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 24 September 2006 05:27 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ken, did you steal my brain?
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 24 September 2006 07:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now now. His name is Jerysb, leave poor Jersey out of this - it's apparently not so bad once you get past the Sopranos end of the turnpike.

Also, I haven't seen Jerysb say anything too terribly out of line yet. Let's not have a pre-emptive strike policy, huh?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
2 ponies
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11096

posted 24 September 2006 01:08 PM      Profile for 2 ponies   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Steppenwolf, fair enough, I just had to call you on some of your posts regarding that inaccurate NP article on resolutions at the NDP convention. I shouldn’t have made it sound like you don’t provide facts, because I know from several posts you’ve made on several threads that you typically provide references to facts. I still don’t agree that put-downs on those who put us down and try to make their points rudely are the right way to make an argument. And in fairness, it wouldn’t too difficult for me to go back to some of my rabble posts and find communications that I’m sure would be considered belittling by someone. I didn’t think the quality of jerysb1980’s two short posts merit a response. They were poorly written, short, lacking any clear reference to anything and I was a little shocked that he had written something so void of thoughtfulness because that’s not typical of what babblers write. Any how, thanks for the references on the French system.
From: Sask | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 24 September 2006 08:01 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Let's not have a pre-emptive strike policy, huh?

Oh all right...


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hunky_Monkey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6081

posted 24 September 2006 08:34 PM      Profile for Hunky_Monkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can I ask a serious question without being jumped on?

If the far right is seen as extreme, nuts, way of of the mainstream, etc., what about the far left?


From: Halifax | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 24 September 2006 08:36 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tree-huggers, commie pinkos, etc...
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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Babbler # 11323

posted 24 September 2006 08:41 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jerysb1980:
oh yeah 2 ponies, my grandma in france has to pay for some private health insurance and most doctors are in the private sector. they work for themselves. I haven't seen the end of europe cause of that.

Millions of Canadians have some private health insurance (drugs, dental, ambulance, semi-private hospital, vision care, nursing home, etc. etc.). Also the vast majority of doctors in Canada "work for themselves" - they are in private practice - the government sends them fees instead of the patients.

Did you know these facts about Canada?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hunky_Monkey
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6081

posted 24 September 2006 08:44 PM      Profile for Hunky_Monkey     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
Tree-huggers, commie pinkos, etc...

LOL.... well, Boom Boom... the point I was asking about was whether both sides are... extreme, nutty, and out of the mainstream. Why does the left paint the right as such and believe it... while the right does the same to the left.


From: Halifax | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
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Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 09:06 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops! Wrong place!

Sorry

[ 24 September 2006: Message edited by: Steppenwolf Allende ]


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 09:17 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Millions of Canadians have some private health insurance (drugs, dental, ambulance, semi-private hospital, vision care, nursing home, etc. etc.). Also the vast majority of doctors in Canada "work for themselves" - they are in private practice - the government sends them fees instead of the patients.

Did you know these facts about Canada?


T'is very true. Traditionally, here in BC, supplemental health care coverage (that is, anything not directly covered by the public plan) has been most often provided by group health insurance cooperatives, such as the former MSA and CU&C, which have since joined together to become Pacific Blue Cross. These were started by labour unions.

Working Enterprises, a cooperative of eleven unions, also offters these benefits. And many unions have their own cooperative health plans.

But actual private for-profit health insurance and services were little more than a fringe business until a few years ago.

Under the BC Liar reign, private health clinics, including elementary surgery units, have appeared (despite repeated Liar promises that they would not expand into surgery and those few private clinics that did exist would be made "redundant."). They are hugely expensive, and some of them are owned, at least in part, by the same doctors who refer patients to them--and the government pays the increased costs.

It is a key sign of the decline of this country and its infrastructure, along with the freedom and well-being of its people.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 24 September 2006 09:22 PM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If the far right is seen as extreme, nuts, way of the mainstream, etc., what about the far left?

Well, the best answer, I think, is a question: what difference does it make?

"Left" and "right," as said before, are archaic terms that go back to the French Revolution and the first Directorate--a long since defunct legislative body.

There are vague and scattered ideas in Canada about what constitutes "left" and "right." But these are also often conflicted--people can be considered "left" on some things and "right" on others. So the terms have very little practical definition.

So, you can only imagine just how impractical and largely meaningless "extreme" right or left are.

Now, what about "mainstream?" What exactly is it? What does its complimentary term "center" mean? Other than being un-innovative, spineless on most democratization issues, especially around the economy, and supporting whatever any collection of public polling or the corporate media say, I can't think of a real political definition for either of these terms.

For example, some folks have labeled me as "extreme" or "radical" "left." Others say I'm too moderate on certain matters. Some have even accused me of being "right" on some issues. I have been called "green." I have been called "brown." I have of course been called "red."

You probably have too. It seems these terms mean very different things to many different people--and those meanings change over time.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 25 September 2006 01:27 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If there's a problem here, it's not having enough people at the riding delegate selection/resolutions meeting so that the sillier resolutions don't make it to the convention.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 25 September 2006 01:52 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I tend to get called "far left" simply because I actually expect the people I help elect to stay true to the principles they espoused during their campaigns.

And, of course, I always remember the old Yank song "You Ain't Done Nothing If You Ain't Been Called a Red!".


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4372

posted 25 September 2006 02:22 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hunky_Monkey:

LOL.... well, Boom Boom... the point I was asking about was whether both sides are... extreme, nutty, and out of the mainstream. Why does the left paint the right as such and believe it... while the right does the same to the left.


Because every political movement/thought system/ideology has its share of uncompromising assholes who can't appreciate the perspectives or views of others. However, on the left most of those people are well marginalized and kept away from anything important, while on the right they tend to be in charge of governments and parties.

There are jerks on the 'left' for whose statements and ideas I wouldn't want to be held accountable. Nor will I, until the people on the right who try to use those jerks to tar us all with the same brush fully accept responsibility for the likes of Ann Coulter, Rachel Marsden etc.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
montrealais
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9163

posted 25 September 2006 10:17 PM      Profile for montrealais   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The list of idiotic suggestions is so long, the leadership's claim that none of them will become policy starts to look dubious: "new and robust initiatives to demystify sexual orientation and gender identity in schools;" gender identity to be made a reason for discrimination that could warrant granting refugee status...

Interest in queer and trans rights taken as prima facie evidence of looney-tunes-ism. Check. Yup, it's a National Post article all right. What do you expect from a paper one of whose editorials referred to protesters as "faggots," outside quotes, on the front page?

(Speaking as the person who brought forward those parts of the resolution in question, though, I'm thrilled they noticed! )

[ 25 September 2006: Message edited by: montrealais ]


From: Montreal | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Infocus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12535

posted 26 September 2006 07:58 PM      Profile for Infocus        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have been working for years to develop independent working class public interest and democratic oriented media that actually reports facts and information, instead of making it up or twisting it around to suit dictatorial corporate special interests and their loony economics.

And how's that working for you so far? Anybody buying advertising space? How are your circulation numbers so far? Somehow, I'm not seeing you on my local news stand.

quote:
If anything, the NDP needs to bring its CCF democratic socialist fundamental back to the forefront and start using its political ties to the labour, cooperative, CED, credit union, social justice and ecological movements to build a viable sustainable democratic media that can punch these lying corporate lunatics out--just like we did to the banks by setting credit unions, or to the agricultural cartels by setting up the cooperative wheat pools, or, more recently, to the elite investment house parasites by setting up labour-sponsored venture capital funds, and on and on.

Yep. The State 'means of production' theory has worked out soooo well in other jurisdictions, so far. I'd rather own shares of the big 5 banks than a membership in the local co-op. The latter might make you feel good, but it ain't gonna make your retirement any more prosperous. Oh, and those labour sponsored funds are a huge scam. They haven't made any money for anyone except the fund managers, while at the same time they 'rip off' other taxpayers by offering 'tax subsidies' to 'investors'. I thought you guys were against tax subsidies.


From: Nanaimo, B.C. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
Steppenwolf Allende
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13076

posted 27 September 2006 12:13 AM      Profile for Steppenwolf Allende     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, spot the corporate looney: Infocus.

quote:
The State 'means of production' theory has worked out soooo well in other jurisdictions, so far.

This idiot is still trying to equate socialism with state capitalism of the Leninist variety and economic democracy with state ownership.

He refuses to accept the historic difference between the democratic control of businesses and economies overall by working people and their communities and simply keeping the corporate capitalist economics and institutions largely intact, only under a nationalized framework.

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalismp/URL]

http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ppapers/statecap.html

If he did accept this, it would shoot down all the BS he believes in.

(Besides, given the fact of the historic genocidal atrocities under more classical private or corporate capitalism, I don't know what he feels so righteous about).

quote:
Oh, and those labour sponsored funds are a huge scam. They haven't made any money for anyone except the fund managers, while at the same time they 'rip off' other taxpayers by offering 'tax subsidies' to 'investors'.

Now this is a lie of outright desperation. He's literally grasping at straws trying to find something that justifies his worthless existence.

The truth is labour sponsored funds show more stable and consistent and sustainable returns that standard capitalist funds. And they have now become by far the preferred, and the only readily available way, that small businesses and new economic sectors can get capital investment.

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&se=gglsc&d=5001387588&er=deny

http://www.uswa.org/usw/program/content/438.php

And these funds successfully invest in local socially responsible economic development, including unionization, worker ownership options, environmental and human rights standards and community based activities. And unlike the totalitarian corporate tyrannies out there, labour funds elect their boards by one-person-one-vote.

Of course, Infocus would still likely see this as a "rip-off" because the dividends are going back to working people in the form of RRSPs education trusts, etc, and not into the coffers of various corporate parasites and dictators.

quote:
I'd rather own shares of the big 5 banks than a membership in the local co-op. The latter might make you feel good, but it ain't gonna make your retirement any more prosperous.

Dishonesty is the "right-winger's" only virtue.

The truth is credit unions on average offer higher interest rates on small accounts, especially in the long term, and the same or lower rates on mortgages and small business loans and much better service--without many of those extra gouging fees the banks charge. They are THE better deal. Too bad the banks enjoy the privileged protection of the federal government. Otherwise, they would be part of history by now.

And the most important thing is that they are democratic one-person-one-vote organizations that are based much more on sustainability than the profiteering capitalistic greed of the banks, which consistently causes huge devastation on economies everywhere.

http://www.bankrate.com/brm/static/compare.asp

http://www.affinityplus.org/member/cr_vs_bank.asp

And here's some info on credit union ethical funds, similar in many ways to labour-sponsored funds:

http://www.ethicalfunds.com/do_the_right_thing/

Of course, corporate apologists and similar "right" wing types, other than the usual hollow rhetoric, are opposed to democracy, sustainability and ethical business--especially in the economy, since it is the basis for practical socialism and the death of corporate capitalism and all its undemocratic destructive institutions.

That's why they lie like they do.


From: goes far, flies near, to the stars away from here | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 27 September 2006 05:48 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You can say that again. I wonder if Infocus can point us to an example of laissez-faire capitalism that has worked anywhere in the world since 1929 ?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
prairiefire
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13244

posted 29 September 2006 08:43 AM      Profile for prairiefire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
You can say that again. I wonder if Infocus can point us to an example of laissez-faire capitalism that has worked anywhere in the world since 1929 ?.

I have asked this question of my capitalist libertarian friends and have never receive an answer. The answer given to the problems caused be deregulation of the economy always seems to be more deregulation.


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged

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