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Author Topic: Do Conservatives have an Inferiority Complex?
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 12:03 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So many Conservatives seem to envy our Southern neighbours. And a lot of Conservatives would like us to join the US.

Why dont they take pride in Canada like most Canadians?

Do Conservatives have an Inferiority Complex?


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Big Willy
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posted 20 April 2004 12:19 AM      Profile for Big Willy        Edit/Delete Post
I take pried in Canada when it is appropriate, however all too often I am left with little to take pried in. Sure I am big fans of Canadian teams, I do enjoy “Monday Report” (although there should be not CBC but that’s another story), and I do love good Canadian maple syrup and fresh fish. However I do look at the United States with envy for all that they have to take pried in. Yes some conservatives would even like to join the U.S., but that is ridiculous since Canada is much too large as it is to deal with regional issues effectively. I support better relations with our American friends, freer trade, and definitely taking a lesson from them on many issues.
From: The West | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 20 April 2004 12:22 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Big Willy:
I take pried in Canada when it is appropriate, however all too often I am left with little to take pried in. Sure I am big fans of Canadian teams, I do enjoy “Monday Report” (although there should be not CBC but that’s another story), and I do love good Canadian maple syrup and fresh fish. However I do look at the United States with envy for all that they have to take pried in. Yes some conservatives would even like to join the U.S., but that is ridiculous since Canada is much too large as it is to deal with regional issues effectively. I support better relations with our American friends, freer trade, and definitely taking a lesson from them on many issues.

You will not happy until Canada is pried from us by the Americans.

I hope for your sake that English is not your native language.


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 12:37 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I don't think it's an inferiority complex so much as it is that conservatives just happen to admire American culture and the way Americans do things. Reliance on material wealth as an indicator of social status and success, concentration on entertainment and leisure as priorities in life, and an unwillingness to embrace nuance and complexity as the natural state of the world, etc. I'm not saying these traits are in and of themselves negative (although obviously I'm not a fan of them) but I think this is just a reflection of what it means to be conservative (or at least the latest flavour of conservativism). America is a deeply conservative nation, and it's only natural that conservatives here would admire that.

That they have to go out of their way to be so anti-Canadian just makes me think that the conservative mindset is also fundamentally mean and angry.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 12:54 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hope for your sake that English is not your native language.

Please do not do this.


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
East/West
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posted 20 April 2004 01:57 AM      Profile for East/West     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Big Willy:
, and definitely taking a lesson from them on many issues.

And which issues would these be? How to get bogged down in Iraq? How to construct history's largest deficit? How to have the highest murder rate in the industrialized world? The highest incarceration rate?

Inquiring minds want to know.


From: west bank of the east branch of the Don | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 20 April 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftcoastguy:
So many Conservatives seem to envy our Southern neighbours. And a lot of Conservatives would like us to join the US.

Why dont they take pride in Canada like most Canadians?

Do Conservatives have an Inferiority Complex?


Many of us DO take pride in Canada. Adam Yoshida and his ilk do not representative of the majority of Conservatives.

The reason why Conservatives might appear to be so pro-American is that they do not reject ideas soley on the basis of "America=bad" like the NDP.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 02:47 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gir....I think you are missing the point. I never knew anti-Americanism to be NDP policy. I am not particularly fond of the Bush administration policies, in many areas, but I am not anti-American.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
sir_springer
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posted 20 April 2004 03:15 AM      Profile for sir_springer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been a Reformer/CAer/nowConservative for over 15 years.

I have yet to meet one single member who advocated that Canada should be more like the US. Not once.

For the life of me, I cannot fathom this deep-seated and virtually eternal insecurity vis-a-vis America, especially as expressed by the Liberal Left.

The facts are that we are next-door neighbors with America. We share a ton of common history. There is hardly a household in Canada that does not have family ties across the border, as well as common roots. We do 85% of our trade with the US. We have fought side by side with them in two world wars and Korea, plus a host of other battles and peace keeping missions. We share in the mutual defence of North America, as well as partner with them in NATO. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Canadians vacation in the US, and Americans holiday here in massive numbers. Up until a few years ago, Canadians were the largest foreign investers in the US, as well as the largest group of foreign property owners.

To paraphrase one American member of government who said: "Ah, yes. Sovereignty. That's something that Canadians can't define, don't want to pay the cost to defend, and are so afraid that the US wants to take from them."

How true, how sadly true.

Is it even remotely possible any more for Canadians to define who we are without referring to America? Why does being "Canadian" immediately come down to whatever it is that is not being "American"? Or more to the point, start with being "anti-American"?

To put it bluntly, Canadians, by and large, have just about the worst case of collective "small cock syndrome" on the planet when it comes to our relationship with America. It's bizarre...and there's absolutely no God damn excuse for it.

How many people on this forum know that last June, that mighty naval power, Denmark, sent a small military force to some obscure island between Ellsmere Island and Greenland...a rock that has been considered Canadian territory since forever...and planted their flag upon it and claimed it for themselves?

And you know what we...Canada...did about it???

Sweet fuck all.

Why?

Because we're incapable.

We can't even defend our God damn soveriegnty from some second rate rinky-dink nation like Denmark...forget about America.

The one thing Manley said that I agree with wholeheartedly was: "Canada wants to sit at the table with big boys...but as soon as the check arrives, we head for the washrooms."

Ain't that the pathetic truth!

Thank you, Trudeau/Chretien/Martin, for reducing this country's sovereignty to little more than a passing fart in a windstorm.

Thank you for making Canada almost entirely dependant upon America for own national security.

Thank you for bringing our military to its bloody knees.

Thank you for working so hard to reduce our stature in America's eyes to that of some impotent little third world wannabes.

But even worse, for reducing the stature of Canada in Canadians eyes to that of limp-dick mediocrity...to the point that we dare not even hope for better, lest, God forbid, we might seem too "American" in our pride and patriotism in our own nation.



From: Kootenays, BC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 03:18 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I rest my case.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 20 April 2004 03:26 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok...so the Conservatives want:

1) An American style Senate
2) An American style Judicial System
3) An American style Health Care system
4) An American style economic system (tax policy)
5) An American style foreign policy
6) An American style immigration policy

But they don't want Canada to be more like the Americans??


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 20 April 2004 03:35 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've thought of some more:

7) An American style environmental policy
8) An American style social policy
9) An American style economic re-distribution policy
10) An American style foreign trade policy

Any others?


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
sir_springer
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posted 20 April 2004 03:46 AM      Profile for sir_springer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Marc:
Ok...so the Conservatives want:

1) An American style Senate
2) An American style Judicial System
3) An American style Health Care system
4) An American style economic system (tax policy)
5) An American style foreign policy
6) An American style immigration policy

But they don't want Canada to be more like the Americans??


That is utter bullshit, and you know it.

But don't let the facts get in the way of your rabid hatred for all things un-leftwing.

1) We want a Senate that is more than merely a collection of party hacks beholding to the Prime Minister, and representative of the people and regions of Canada. What the hell is "American" about that???

2) We want a system in which judges are not, similar to Senators, appointed at the discretion of one man according to his own political leanings...just like most other western nations. Yes, that's really "American", isn't it?

3) I don't know of anyone, not one single person, in the CPC who wants an American style healthcare system. And I defy you to provide one shred of evidence that we do. Even one. And don't hand me some collection of bullshit espoused by a Liberal or NDPer, either.

4) American style tax policy? Since when did having a competitive and non-punitive tax regime become an "American" concept???

5) American style foreign policy? I'd be happy if we just had our own foreign policy, as opposed to that dictated by a bunch of thirdworld, wannabe dictators and empire builders hanging around the UN looking for their next freebie.

6) American style immigration policy? You mean one that actually screens just exactly who we are allowing into to our country? Is that an "American" concept??? Give me a freakin' break!


From: Kootenays, BC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 20 April 2004 03:51 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
11) American style gun laws
12) American style cultural policy, with US TV, film, book and magazine policy
13) American style abortion laws
14) American style “choice” in the teaching of biological sciences, especially in relation to evolution
15) American style relation to indigenous peoples

but we should be fair...not all Conservatives want all of the above. It's just too much work to figure out which is which, they all whine the same...

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
sir_springer
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posted 20 April 2004 04:08 AM      Profile for sir_springer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I take it that, as repeatedly demonstrated on this forum, all things not of the Liberal Left are thus, ipso facto, somehow American, eh?

I find it telling...if not amusing...that my assertion that any discussion about Canadian sovereignty and merely being Canadian, particularly with Liberal Leftists, always revolves around whatever being American is or isn't...

Is immediately countered by posts which do precisely that.

Brilliant.


From: Kootenays, BC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
madman
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posted 20 April 2004 04:13 AM      Profile for madman        Edit/Delete Post
Forget it

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: madman ]


From: Republic of western Canada | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 20 April 2004 04:17 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
actually, I thought the last two replies were prima facie evidence of my assertion that all Conservatives "whine the same."

Edited to add: At least there WAS evidence. History seems to have been re-written.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 04:17 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Birds of a feather......

Harper flattered by 'anti-Canadian' attacks

quote:
And one after another, they bashed Harper's get-tough approach to crime, support for the war in Iraq, call for massive tax cuts and diminished role for government as antithetical to the country's cherished values.

The medicare system would be gutted by Harper's tax cuts, said Liberal campaign co-chair David Herle.

"(Conservatives) actually don't like Canada the way it is," Herle said.

"They do think it's some socialist backwater that's in decline and they do think that it needs to be fundamentally changed. Stephen Harper says, `If we get into office, you won't recognize this country.'

"Well, that scares Canadians. That's not what they're looking for."


[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
madman
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posted 20 April 2004 04:22 AM      Profile for madman        Edit/Delete Post
Sir Springer

I apologize that you may have been acused of being involved with my post. I tried to edit before the fangs came out.


From: Republic of western Canada | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 April 2004 04:25 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftcoastguy:
Gir....I think you are missing the point. I never knew anti-Americanism to be NDP policy. I am not particularly fond of the Bush administration policies, in many areas, but I am not anti-American.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


Have ya ever noticed that you never hear the phrase, "anti-Swiss," or "anti-Polish," or "anti-Russian," or "anti-Canadian" etc. etc. But the Yanks were the ones who invented the term "anti-American" in the days of the HUAAC witch hunts. As if anyone who dared voice an objection, or even failed to bray the anthem loudly enough was somehow harbouring treasonous plans and unpatriotic thoughts...

And these Conservatives accuse Canadians of being insecure and paranoid! I don't need to celebrate my love of country with a show of flag-waving and blowhard jingoism, thanks very much. And I also don't need to define myself by comparing my country to the USA and its residents. I work in the tourism industry, and meet many, many Europeans every summer. I don't need to point out the differences. Anyone with a pair of eyes and "the common sense God gave a goose" (as the saying goes) can see it for themselves.

And there's a reason so many of these visitors (including Yankees) come back time after time after time. They appreciate that difference as well.

But if these Conservatives are so all-fired enamoured with everything Yankee, I don't hear any big clamour asking them to stay here. If they'd be happier there, why don't they move there? Or do they like to just sit here and whine?

************

Added:

Well that kinda blows THAT little theory... There's "Hinterland" using the term "anti-Canadian." (But I still think it's a silly phrase!)

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 20 April 2004 04:40 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those who are trying (rather poorly) to defend the Conservatives seem to fail to realize that in politics, perception is reality. The Cons will be seen as an extremist party which is the puppet of the Republican Party. Harper has done an awful job of distinguishing his party from this perception and has, by his blind support of GWB, in fact cemented it.
From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 20 April 2004 04:53 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When the NDP forms government, we can arrange for an offshoot of our national childcare program, a Canada-wide nursery for whining Conservatives.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 April 2004 04:54 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sir_springer:
Is it even remotely possible any more for Canadians to define who we are without referring to America? Why does being "Canadian" immediately come down to whatever it is that is not being "American"? Or more to the point, start with being "anti-American"?

I'll give you a great example that doesn't even mention Yankees...

A few years ago when the cod started disappearing from the east coast, and a lot of the fishermen couldn't even come up with the scratch to feed their families, a group of farmers in Saskatchewan got together and went to the railroad. With corporate backing from the rail line (I think it was CN, if memory serves) they put together a full-sized train shipment of wheat, which was hauled down to the east coast and distributed for free. The grain was all donated, and CNR donated the expense of hauling it.

National reporters descended on these small-time Saskatchewan farmers to quiz them about what had moved them to do it. The guy who had originally cooked up the idea told about how his grandfather had told him stories about the "Dirty Thirties," and how just as things were looking their very bleakest, a trainfull of fish— all donated by east coast fishermen and packed in ice— showed up in Saskatchewan, where the fish was distributed for free to the hungry farm families.

I’ll never forget what that shy, 30-something farmer said to the television reporter. "Well, I guess their grand-dads helped out our grand-dads when they needed it, and I figure now it's time to return the favour."

And THAT’S what it means to me to be a proud Canadian. No Yankees involved in that story whatsoever. Just a bunch of farmers who had never in their lives even seen the ocean, paying back a favour that was done over 50 years before. And not for glory and credit, either. Simply because it was "neighbourly" (as the farmer called it) and the right thing to do.

Makes me damn proud to be a Canadian....


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
sir_springer
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posted 20 April 2004 05:11 AM      Profile for sir_springer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look, I get choked when someone, just because I am "conservative", accuses me of wanting to make Canada "American".

Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not impressed at all by the American political system, nor by much of how they do anything.

But that's what makes them "American"...

In the same manner as how we do things here makes us "Canadian".

That said...

How we do things here is not beyond criticism. And wanting to change things does not equate to being "anti-Canadian".

Yes, I hang out over at Free Dominion.

And, yes, there are a relative few there who have an affinity for how the Americans handle some of their issues.

But I can state definitively that, as a "conservative" forum, comparisons to the US are relatively rare.

Certainly much more so than I find on this "pro-left" forum.

I frankly do not know where this idea that "conservatives" obsess with things "American" comes from. I've never experienced it among "conservatives". It rarely ever enters into a discussion about Canadian politics or what or what not this country should be doing to improve our lot.

I, for one, don't really care how America handles things. It's got little to do with Canadian politics...other than issues about foreign policy or trade.

What I do care about...passionately...is that this country is able to stand on its own two feet, and do so with some pride and dignity.

I am offended...as a Canadian...that our national security is almost wholely dependent upon America, and their good will towards this country.

And I am offended...as a Canadian...that our sovereignty has become little more than a subject for jokes.

And even more offended that we place our own sovereignty second to the UN, which is little more than a debating forum for a variety of politicos with whom this country has almost nothing in common, certainly in areas regarding our tradition and heritage of freedom and democracy, and the defence thereof.

But most of all, I get infuriated when I see Canadianism being reduced to little more than whatever it is that is not American...whatever the hell that means.

That kind of, bluntly speaking, crap demeans me and my country.

A lion does not celebrate his "lionism" by merely thanking God that he is not a tiger or a warthog. Nor does a lion even bother to compare himself to other creatures in order to somehow feel good about himself. If he got wrapped up in that, it would not be long before he forgot what "lionism" is all about...which no doubt would lead to his ultimate demise.

Ya see?

We have to start thinking in terms of what "Canadianism" is about, and forget about comparisons to America or anything else.

Or we, too, are on the path to our own demise.

To the lion, the warthog and the elephant are facts of life. He lives with it, and works either with it or around it, whatever it takes. But he doesn't ignore their reality, nor deny it.

America is also a fact of life.

What we, as Canadians, have yet to learn to do is to accept that, and learn to work with it or around it, as need dictates.

Our biggest problem, vis-a-vis the US, is not that they don't see us as equals.

It's that we don't see ourselves as equals.

And equality is NOT achieved by slagging the rest of the world down to our perceived level, nor is it achieved by feigning superiority.

Any more than, for example, is one man's superiority proven by debasing others because of their race, colour, religion, or gender.

Nuff said.


From: Kootenays, BC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 April 2004 05:19 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Ummmm...... read one post up. Proudly Canadian... no Yankees... Satisfied?

And what's with the warthogs and lions? Have you been watching "The Lion King" too many times? Disney will rot yer brain, y'know!

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Tackaberry
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posted 20 April 2004 10:22 AM      Profile for Tackaberry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was so side-tracked by the first post I couldn't continue. Fresh fish, in Winnipeg? If you believe that you'll believe anything dude.
From: Tokyo | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There's "Hinterland" using the term "anti-Canadian."

I've only very recently started using this term (...and it's probably only the second time I have) as a short-cut to say a lot of things, mostly that today's Reformatory conservatism really does seem to get off protesting and criticising what are long-standing traditions in this country. I'm not using it in that mindless "witch-hunt" way the term anti-American is being used.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Big Willy
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posted 20 April 2004 11:04 AM      Profile for Big Willy        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by East/West:
[QB]
And which issues would these be?

Liberating 2 oppressed nations, making the world safer, a great tax system, and a wonderful system of government, yadda yadda yadda.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Big Willy ]


From: The West | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 11:11 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am offended...as a Canadian...that our national security is almost wholely dependent upon America, and their good will towards this country.

I wonder if the Reformatories are ever going to give this little myth a rest for a while. It's actually never happened in the history of this country, and yet, it's trotted out regularly as a fact of life.

It's a result of the Cold War. If the Soviet Union had attacked Canada with its considerable nuclear arsenal, then I suppose the Americans would have had to retaliate, and, as noble as that might have seemed to some people, I wasn't going to thank the Americans for protecting me once the first nuclear winter rolled around (...actually, during that time, I was happy I lived in Toronto, which I figured would ensure that I was vaporised in a second).

I've yet to see a real public discussion about whether current military spending is adequate for our needs. There has been a lot of whining about aging helicopters and wrong-colour uniforms, which seem to be embarrassing some boys in the latest penis-measuring contest, but a serious discussion of the military, spending, and what our defense needs are?

Maybe that's at the heart of conservative inferiority complex. Small penises. Because nothing else is sure making any sense.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 20 April 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Big Willy:
[QUOTE]Liberating 2 oppressed nations, making the world safer, a great tax system, and a wonderful system of government, yadda yadda yadda.
...thus proving that Big Willy is a brilliant left-wing satirist doing a clever parody of a Bush supporter for us. You had me going there for a while. Bravo, comrade Willy!

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 20 April 2004 03:20 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sir_springer:
I frankly do not know where this idea that "conservatives" obsess with things "American" comes from. I've never experienced it among "conservatives". It rarely ever enters into a discussion about Canadian politics or what or what not this country should be doing to improve our lot.

I, for one, don't really care how America handles things. It's got little to do with Canadian politics...other than issues about foreign policy or trade.

What I do care about...passionately...is that this country is able to stand on its own two feet, and do so with some pride and dignity.

I am offended...as a Canadian...that our national security is almost wholely dependent upon America, and their good will towards this country.


On the national security thing--
But, conservative parties consistently back increased integration between Canadian and American militaries! So, you may be dead set against Conservative/Reform/Alliance/PC policies on this issue, but you can hardly say that conservatives in general are, unless you want to say that actual C/R/A/P *politicians* are all a bunch of lying quisling betrayers of grassroots conservative beliefs. Which, actually, I could buy.

On the rest--OK, maybe you guys just don't notice. That's plausible. Hey everybody, I've figured it out: Conservatives are mainly conservative because they don't look carefully at the media, don't analyze the assumptions they've been handed, and so forth. So, where we tend to keep a careful eye on the ideas of the American right and the ways those ideas spread, grassroots conservatives generally do not. All they see is their local conservatives handing them simplistic but superficially plausible lines. They remain unaware that those lines and the policies enacted are essentially identical to, and indeed sourced from, American right-wing think tank ideas. They don't know their politicians have been going to American seminars on right-wing ideology stuff with American right-wing politicians. They don't know their politicians are echoing American right-wing politicians nearly word for word.

In short, right wingers echo American right wing policies largely without knowing it, because they're not aware of the workings of the media, PR, and the whole manufacturing-consent operation.

Maybe they really aren't knowingly longing to be just like big brother. We just assume they are because to be left wing requires more awareness of what's going on in the world, and at some level it doesn't occur to us that they're missing all that context.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 20 April 2004 03:30 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's not so much that reformatory conservatives hate Canada, or love America, it's that they are only interested in one thing, the all-mighty-dollar, and if that means that we have to sell out our own country, or plunge billions of dollars we could be using to boost our own healthcare, education, housing and poverty problems, into a meaningless military phallic symbol, then when "their God speaks", reformatories do not hesitate for a second in sacrificing the poor for the benefit of the "greater greed"!
From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Shane
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posted 20 April 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for Shane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have yet to meet one single member who advocated that Canada should be more like the US. Not once.

I second that, Springer.

This topic really bothers me because I am as proud to be a Canadian as anyone possibly could be, and I am also a Conservative.

But being proudly Canadian does not mean you have to be anti-American. I'm not aware of what causes anti-Americanism but it appears to be the very inferiority complex that you speak of.

Do you who are so adamantly anti-American believe Canada is inferior to the United States? I certainly don't.

Canada is the greatest nation in the world, the very values that are encompassed in this country speak volumes as to what makes Canada so great.

But we need to evaluate how to make Canada even better. I believe there is a rightful place for Canada amongst the other nations of the world. Canada should be a world leader, with strong international influence. Instead we are very much a vanishing nation in terms of our international outreach.

I am a member of the Tory party first and foremost because it is a pro-Canada party, with Canadian interests as its' number one priority.

We need a Prime minister who will stand up to the United States when necessary, and work with them to achieve what is mutually beneficial. Stephen Harper is the man to do that.

As I've said, I have never met a Conservative who advocates Canada joining the United States. And certainly if party policy even so much as presages such an intention, I will tear up my membership card.

Fortunately, I don't believe such a thing will ever happen.


From: Ontario | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jesse Hoffman
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posted 20 April 2004 10:05 PM      Profile for Jesse Hoffman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As I've said, I have never met a Conservative who advocates Canada joining the United States. And certainly if party policy even so much as presages such an intention, I will tear up my membership card.

Uh, Sir_Springer didn't say that he had never met a Conservative who advocated Canada joining the US, but rather that he had never met a Conservative who advocated Canada becoming more like the US.

I for one find that very hard to believe. Personally I have met quite a few Conservatives who have criticized Canadian policies, and argued that we should do things more like the United States in that respect. Infact one of them was someone who ran for office under the Conservative Party banner.


From: Peterborough, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 20 April 2004 10:23 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm going to cross my self-imposed "Won't someone think of the children!!!" boundary and tell Shane to...well, smarten up. Any more content-free posts like that and you're going to seriously damage your credibility. I don't care if you are the Laura Secord of Canadian nationalism, it is not much of an argument for anything. Try harder, Shane, or be prepared to incur...well, the time-out to end all time-outs!
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 20 April 2004 10:37 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Shane, I realize that Springer is a bit of a one-note wonder, but when he's already droning on with that one note, why do you have to play it too?

"Anti-American, anti-American, anti-American..." Bah!

I would venture to say most of the folks here are far from "anti-American," but are rather pro-Canadian. If they are "anti" anything, they are against this moronic right-wing, god-obsessed lunatic who is currently fraudulently pretending to be the elected President of the United States.

I know lots of really wonderful Yanks, Shane, and y'know what? They despise Bushler, too. Sure, they are derided as being unpatriotic, treasonous, ad nauseam, but no one in the States with half a brain left is even listening to those bleatings any more. And when you and Springer take up this type of pro-Bush mantra, all you do is align yourself with one of the biggest abject failures, and most thoroughly corrupt Presidents since Harding.

If that's the image you want to put forth, I can't stop you, but I would caution that you'd better have an inflatable tube handy, 'coz you've hitched a ride on a rapidly sinking ship....


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
leftist-rightie and rightist-leftie
Babbler # 3804

posted 20 April 2004 10:45 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftcoastguy:
Gir....I think you are missing the point. I never knew anti-Americanism to be NDP policy. I am not particularly fond of the Bush administration policies, in many areas, but I am not anti-American.

[ 20 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


It is not official policy. It is just whenever I hear Layton or McDonough attack anything the Liberals or Conservatives propose, there always seems to be something in there about the right-wing wayn (no distinction between Grits and Tories) being the American way, and therefore implicitly the wrong way.

Not all NDPers are anti-American (in fact I know many who are quite reasonable), but your representatives project that image.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 21 April 2004 03:46 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just for the record, I'm anti-American and I'm not particularly ashamed of it. Sure, many Americans survive their culture and manage to be really good people, or even rebel against it, overcome it and achieve greatness by that transcendence. But taking the place as a collective, as a nation, I am anti-American. I don't like their politics, I don't like the dominant aspects of their culture, I don't like their national arrogance, I don't like what they do to the rest of the world, I don't like their stranglehold on world media or what they do with that stranglehold. I don't like their wrestling federations, I don't like their reality TV, I don't like their religions, and I don't like their guns. I don't like their national sense of humour, although they do have some individual comedians who are very funny. I would rather be next door neighbours with nearly any other country in the world.

Sue me.

But I don't think most New Democrats think that way. That's just me.

Meanwhile, it's all very fine for you guys to say over and over that you don't, and never meet anyone who does, want Canada to be more like the States. But get real.
On guns, right wing discourse mimics American discourse, even though American discourse is founded rather specifically in an idiosyncratic part of the American constitution. Many Canadian pro-gun people somehow manage to create a rights discourse about guns that behaves as if the Canadian constitution had something similar--or as if not having the same clauses as the American constitution is a defect that needs to be rectified.
There is an influential strand of Canadian right-wing economic thought that consistently advocates more and more and more economic integration with the United States, even to things like adopting the American dollar which the Americans don't even want us to do. The conservative financial boys are *always* floating that trial balloon, and saying things like how really, it's inevitable in a few years and the only question is how long it will take.

The right wing is constantly talking about privatizing medical care. When they don't think anyone is listening, they talk about it a lot more forcefully than they do in their statements for public consumption. They consistently seem to want to move towards the American model, and are constantly drawing attention to the shortcomings of the current (underfunded) Canadian system compared to the (vastly expensive) American one, while never ever mentioning the massive problems involved in the American model.

The right wing constantly advocates more integration between the Canadian armed forces and the American forces, despite the fact that this inevitably involves the Canadian forces as the junior partners, often directly under American command. They consistently advocate, not merely spending more money on the military, but spending money *on things that will let us meet American expectations*. That is not the same thing as spending money on things that will meet Canadian objectives. Conservative advocacy--at the official, politician level anyway--on military issues consistently emphasizes our role as allies of the United States, rather than either national defense and sovereignty enforcement for Canada or international UN-related roles.

The right generally favours dumping all governmental measures for defending or enhancing Canadian culture out the window.

On issue after issue, the right advocates moving closer to US policies, doing whatever the US asks, or otherwise eliminating barriers or distinctions between the two countries. And then you say oh, no, nobody on the right wants Canada to be more like the US, mercy me how can you even suggest such a thing? Give me a break.

Meanwhile, on the subject of insecurity--hello! We have one tenth of their population, they're the world's only superpower, they are the most active culture exporters in the world, and they're used to doing everything from hard lobbying to covert operations to military action to ensure the policies of other countries align with their wishes. One of Lyin' Brian's more memorable lies was in his pre-election rejection of the concept of free trade, when he made pointed reference to the results of elephants lying down with mice. Only a fool wouldn't be insecure. It's not that they're somehow a better country--but they are certainly much more powerful, and it's moronic to ignore that fact.

Americans can be OK neighbours, if you have a decent fence up and don't let them borrow your tools. We don't take those precautions, so we let them wear a path through the back yard, dump their trash on our property, and find that they never seem to remember having ever borrowed a drill.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 April 2004 09:19 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...not to mention that there's a garden hose and an extension cord running over to their backyard from the side of our house, and everytime we go for the spare propane tank, it's empty.

Very, very well said, Rufus.

And I like Americans. I work with some, representing their products in Canada. I simply know that when it comes to business, there's no friendship. If you recognise that self-interest comes first, and deal on that basis, you might be able to stay friends.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 21 April 2004 09:52 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Count me in on the "anti-American" side along the same lines as Rufus.

Right wingers also would prefer the American political system over the Canadian system . . . elected senators, elected judges, fixed election dates, unlimited campaign spending.

They prefer to have the same support for non-english and non-American-culture as the Americans.

They prefer we have the same foriegn policies as the Americans.

They would have Canada use all the same failed education methods used in the USA applied to Canadian education.

They prefer that we get rid of our legal industry protection devices, such as the wheat board, government owned resources, cultural protection laws, or any other legal device that protects Canada from being unfairly dominated by the USA.

Tom Long, a key back room operator in the Reform/UA/Alliance/CPC has explicity stated that he prefers the USA to Canada and that Canada is some backwater hole that he is determined to turn into another USA.

How any right winger can be so dishonest (or stupidly ignorant of what's there right in front of their face) as to say that the right, especially as represented by the CPC, does not prefer America over Canada is just an incredibly bold example of ignoring the facts.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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Babbler # 1885

posted 21 April 2004 10:27 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rufus, you have the uncanny ability to put into words the fragments and notions that are floating about, disorganized, in my head. Political anti-Americanism, as you describe, is not the same as some vague anti-American racism. It is a resistance to a cultural, military, political, and economic invasion that has been infiltratrating Canada from day one. It is as natural, and neccesary, a defense mechanism as putting on a heavy coat during winter.

Count me in as a proud anti-American.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 21 April 2004 11:12 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Rufus—

As long as we are talking "political anti-Americanism" I guess I'm on-side with that as well.

Very nicely summed up, Rufus!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
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posted 21 April 2004 01:53 PM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland said:
“I've yet to see a real public discussion about whether current military spending is adequate for our needs. There has been a lot of whining about aging helicopters and wrong-colour uniforms, which seem to be embarrassing some boys in the latest penis-measuring contest, but a serious discussion of the military, spending, and what our defense needs are?”

As a member of the military, I agree that a defense review would be a good idea. It would let us know what capabilities we need to develop, and which we can scrap. Much of the organization of the military is still geared to fighting mass battles in a WW3 type setting; which is unlike to happen.

However, I will have to take an objection to the tone and intent of the hinterland’s statement. The helicopters are not a matter of wanting penis extensions; they crash or don’t take off with regularity. They have killed members of the military by crashing. When they can’t fly people could also die, as they are one of our primary search and rescue platforms. As for the uniforms, again this was more that an issue of being embarrassing, it could have been deadly. The mission to Afghanistan, in which the green uniforms become a issue was a combat mission, not a peace keeping mission. Our soldiers were going to fight, not keep two sides separated. I hope I don’t to explain why wearing green in a desert could prove problematic. We have worn green uniforms on desert peacekeeping missions before without complaint.

If the government, representing the people, is going to give us missions, I do not think it is unreasonable to expect that government to properly supply us to carry out those missions. It is hard to argue that the Canadian military is over-equipped, or manned for the current level of responsibilities and missions given.

If a future defense review was to curtail the responsibilities of the military, then yes spending could be cut; however, as long as the government assigns us the current level of tasks, we need more money. While I would agree that our responsibilities should be changed to better reflect the current world situation. I get the idea that you think the size and role of the military should be drastically reduced. It could be, but I would argue, (I admit I maybe be biased, but bear with me) that this would be the wrong thing to do. Especially in the context of separating ourselves from the Americans in foreign affairs. Assuming that you would still want us to take on peace keeping roles, and other UN sanctioned activities; we need to have a certain level of critical mass to stay independent. The more we need the US to transport us, supply us or protect us we become dependent on them. We begin to owe them.

While most people on this board are concerned with the social good within this country, I think our responsibility goes further than borders. The military is often a critical and important part of delivering social goods, or creating the conditions for the development of social goods outside this country.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, but since the comment by Hinterland went unanswered, I felt the need to address it.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 21 April 2004 02:16 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for a very reasonable and enlightening post.

Welcome to babble.

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 April 2004 02:27 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
However, I will have to take an objection to the tone and intent of the hinterland’s statement.

I should have specified that the people I consider penis-measurers are the arm-chair quarterbacks and chicken-hawks who know nothing about wars or the military but are mortified for some reason that Canada is just not measuring up. That certainly wouldn't include someone like you. Although I'm not all thrilled that you consider my comment as having an intent (maliciousness, or not caring about people's lives), I can understand how you took it that way.

I'm not apologising though. We need better discussions about the military than the latest "excellent adventure in Iraq" seems to be engendering.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 21 April 2004 02:29 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rand.....welcome as well. Excellent informative post.

Rufus.....seeing as you put it that way, please add me to your anti-American collective.

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
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posted 21 April 2004 02:44 PM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I accept your non-apology. It sounded like you were belittling the concerns of the soldiers. I agree whole-heartedly that we need to have a detailed policy review, and public debate on the military. We are maintaining capabilities that are not realistic. We need to have a mandate which narrows are focus so we can be proficient on the required tasks. There is enough money and people to do some of the missions we do, very well, but not enough to do everything we are currently tasked with.

Or we could get a huge increase in funding so we can buy all the cool kit the yanks have.

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: Rand McNally ]


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 21 April 2004 02:49 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rand.....if you are interested, I am sure the NDP in your riding would very much appreciate your imput, and you might be able to help shape NDP policy on military issues.

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 21 April 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rand,

Welcome. And thanks for that thoughtful contribution.

Some of us here quite regularly propose more (albeit more considered) military spending. Count me among those.

The ability to defend our territorial sovereignty is paramount (witness the latest nonsense by those Danish pissants), as well as our need to pull our own weight internationally - particularly if we want to support the UN and NATO as counterweights to American hegemony.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 21 April 2004 02:55 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or we could get a huge increase in funding so we can buy all the cool kit the yanks have.

I wonder if that would go over well. I kinda wonder how they'd react if we decided to really beef up our forces and defenses.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 April 2004 03:04 PM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
leftcoastguy: As a regular Forces member I am limited in my level of political involument. We are supposed to appear neutral and not be involed with national level politics. Also, besides my viewpoint as a soldier, anything I could offer would be the same as found in the papers and other public sources. Giving anything more than that will get me into security problems.

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: Rand McNally ]


From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 21 April 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rand.....tks for heads up. I hope you will at least continue to post here.
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 21 April 2004 04:03 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or we could get a huge increase in funding so we can buy all the cool kit the yanks have.

Now you're talkin'. But my favourite suggestion for a cost-effective defensive measure is pretend nukes. Don't actually have them, but say you do. It would be pretty cheap and who's gonna know? Nukes seem to get you noticed by the baddies in the world.

Seriously, though, military defense discussions never go well in public forums. Sir_Springer types show up and the whole thing turns ugly pretty quickly. But maybe you'd like to start on thread on that?

[ 21 April 2004: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
sir_springer
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Babbler # 4230

posted 21 April 2004 07:25 PM      Profile for sir_springer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It gets ugly because I think Canada should be able to carry its own weight with regard to our own national security, or our commitments to Norad and Nato, or to UN Peacekeeping???

Or because it offends me, as a Canadian, that successive Liberal governments have made this country almost wholly dependent on foreign governments for our own defence?

It gets ugly because I have the audacity to tell the truth, and call it like it is...and it offends Liberal Lefties because its been their mentality that has been in charge of this gong show called Canada for just about all of the last 4 decades, starting with Trudeau.

There's an old adage that I'm sure someone like Rand would attest to, given his background:

"You want to play with the wolves, you can't pee like a puppy."

Sovereignty isn't worth the paper on which it is written if one is not prepared to back it up, push come to shove.


From: Kootenays, BC | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rand McNally
rabble-rouser
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posted 21 April 2004 07:54 PM      Profile for Rand McNally     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK it is official this thread got hijacked. Sir_springer, what do you think our capabilities should be. What level is needed to promote our sovereignty. It is not feasible to even try and match the Americans. I am interested to find out what others think on this. Most of the people I deal with day to day are military or tied to it, it is a bit of an echo chamber as far as opinions go. Want to do the honors and start a new thread, I would take part.
From: Manitoba | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
The_Calling
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Babbler # 5377

posted 21 April 2004 08:10 PM      Profile for The_Calling   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canadians fear the US because their neighbor is a rogue state that also happens to be the most powerful country/empire since the Roman empire. It is a legitimate fear. Mexicans feel the same way.

The United States stands much to gain from learning from Canada if it wishes to suceed in the 21st century and rejoin the family of nations.


From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 21 April 2004 09:04 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada needs to erect major barriers to US intrusion, and Canadians need to stop electing politicians who sell us out to the Americans.
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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