babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » from far and wide   » manitoba, ontario, quebec   » Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 15 October 2008 03:12 PM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My Pick is Peter Kormos but what do youall think.
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4173

posted 15 October 2008 03:14 PM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think this should be in the Central forum as Hampton is not a national leader.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 15 October 2008 03:18 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes it should be moved, but that said I think Peggy Nash should now open the door for a run for the leadership.
From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 15 October 2008 03:32 PM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
fair nuff moving it on over!
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 15 October 2008 04:04 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Kormos isn't going to run.
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 October 2008 04:53 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peggy Nash.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 15 October 2008 07:52 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think she'd make a good ONDP leader...I guess she could run in Davenport.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 October 2008 07:56 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She's a woman. She's a trade unionist. She champions progressive causes. I'll bet she could make peace with the CAW.

Ok, come on, let's go here. I'm a foreigner. It's up to you Ontarians. Would a letter-writing campaign be in order, asking her to run?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 15 October 2008 08:04 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately she was defeated but it's not the end of the world. Maybe a "Draft Peggy" movement isn't a bad idea.

I know I'll get the usual accusal of being "a single-issue voter and this divides the working class" but I wonder if she'd support abolishing Catholic school funding.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 15 October 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The fact that she was defeated is why this is a good idea. If Peggy Nash had been re-elected she would almost certainly have wanted to stay in federal politics and it would have looked really bad to run for ONDP leader just weeks after running for re-election federally.

Now she is a free agent and I find her a lot more attractive than any of the other people running.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 October 2008 09:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
Unfortunately she was defeated but it's not the end of the world.

Harper was defeated in the 1988 election, but apparently he made a comeback.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 16 October 2008 06:33 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, Harper didn't run in 1988
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Olly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3401

posted 16 October 2008 08:22 AM      Profile for Olly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack Layton ran many a time and lost, so having a history of winning really isn't a prerequisite.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
genstrike
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15179

posted 16 October 2008 09:03 AM      Profile for genstrike   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
No, Harper didn't run in 1988

Actually, he ran against a PC MP who was his old boss in Calgary West. But he went by Steve Harper in those days


From: winnipeg | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 16 October 2008 09:09 AM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think a draft Koprmos campaign would still be ok as Peggy isnt running either. that said I would put Nash as my number one in the event she runs as Kormos actually seems uninterested. whos up for letter writing Ms.Nash lets organize people unless a better alternative comes up in this board.
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
farnival
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6452

posted 16 October 2008 09:16 AM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tabuns. no question.
From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 October 2008 09:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
I think she'd make a good ONDP leader...I guess she could run in Davenport.

She could...but Ferreira made amazing inroads here during the last provincial election. He reduced Tony Ruprecht from 58% of the vote in 2003 to 42% in 2007. Not bad! And now that he's run in a couple of elections, he has name recognition. (I'm not sure how he did in the federal election, but Mario Silva isn't as weak a candidate as Ruprecht.)

Also, for some reason, I think the Davenport NDP have this idea that they just have to have someone with a Portuguese last name. Personally I've always thought it was kind of racist/ethnocentric to assume that people of a certain background will only vote for people of the same background. But that seems to be the prevailing wisdom in this riding. I personally don't agree with that, but I think that she might not get the nomination for that reason.

[ 16 October 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mahmud
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15217

posted 16 October 2008 09:28 AM      Profile for mahmud     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suggest a franco-Ontarian this time: Gilles Bisson. Smart, serene, dedicated and unafraid of hard work, like all NDPers PLUS he is parfaitement bilingual.

I would also mention France Gelinas, albeit less experienced.


From: Nepean | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 October 2008 09:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, let's draft Kormos. Then perhaps he can hold Christian Supremacy Party prayer meetings instead of caucus meetings.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 16 October 2008 09:46 AM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hear Bill Murdoch is looking for a party.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 16 October 2008 10:26 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
I hear Bill Murdoch is looking for a party.
As long as he's aware that it's BYOB.

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 16 October 2008 11:05 AM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I admit that suupport for the lords prayer in legislature is a regressive and plainly unintelligent thing (as is any belief in the invisible man who hear us all mutter into his ear at once as we go to bed) but honestly if this is what is on Kormos record to attack I think he still viable but Peggy Nash is still my pick as Kormos letter writing has garnered me response letters that seem unfavorable.
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 16 October 2008 01:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why is it that the two old line parties can field pre-programmed robots with all the personality of boiled kleenex, like Harris and McGuinty, and still win phony majorities? I don't believe their minority support bases examine the party leaders' credentials all that closely. People vote for brand names not labels. NDP needs money to campaign with in between elections, and fair voting in Ontario. McGuinty is a 22% tin pot who made two public appearances during the campaign. McGuinty is "ZardOz" behind a curtain. He's very beatable.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
asterix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2419

posted 16 October 2008 08:44 PM      Profile for asterix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sign me up for the "Draft Peggy Nash" club.
From: deep inside the caverns of my mind | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 17 October 2008 10:10 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
She could...but Ferreira made amazing inroads here during the last provincial election. He reduced Tony Ruprecht from 58% of the vote in 2003 to 42% in 2007.

How much of the reduction of Ruprecht's vote was actually because of Ruprecht? Ferreira didn't do all that well federally, faring worse than Gord Perks.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 17 October 2008 10:13 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
No, Harper didn't run in 1988

Huh???????


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193

posted 17 October 2008 10:13 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Peggy Nash is very talented. The Ontario NDP would be foolish not to take a serious look at her.

The most predictable problem with Nash coming forward is she is an outsider and like Layton would probably not get a ton of caucus support- half of which seems to be running anyways

Seeing all the caucus members running to replace Hampton has me appreciating how hard his job must have really been. Hardly any of these MPPs have really distinguished themselves in any way.

I don't see Nash running without any support from Cheri DiNovo and the Layton crowd/machine. To date their support has been either rumored or reported to flow more towards Peter Tabuns. I also don't know if Nash wants the job. I wouldn't blame her if she had some real reservations. An interesting endorsement in this next leadership campaign will be if anyone can manage to pull the support of Adam Giambrone. For any candidate hoping to be the leader of a renewed ONDP, it seems like getting him to give your nomination speech would be a minor coup.

As for ridings, York South-Weston seems like a better bet than Davenport for electing Nash. It would also provide outstanding symbolism if the break-with-the-Rae era leader was elected in Rae's old riding (e.g. we're back, and this time we've cooked up something different). If she ran, I would like to see that be her general election riding and I would like her to commit to contesting the first available byelection to show off what she can do as an election organiser.

[ 17 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]


From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 18 October 2008 07:21 AM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm changing my vote. I nominate Fidel! Think about it, the negitive attack campaigns practically write themselves and a firmer believer in the status quo in NDP policy and ranks there never was. I call on all Rabble Rousers to support Fidel for ONDP leader! Mind you not much of a break with Rae what with his support of the 90-95 govt in other threads but I'm sure if we tell people how the Tories and Grits suck the voters will come in droves! (toung and cheek fidel but all in fun I assure you)
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 18 October 2008 07:35 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by V. Jara:
As for ridings, York South-Weston seems like a better bet than Davenport for electing Nash.
Those would be the two most obvious candidates for Nash if she were to run... unless maybe Marchese in Trinity-Spadina decides that he's had enough.

Does anyone know where Nash actually lives? Is it P-HP, or somewhere nearby?


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 18 October 2008 07:45 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
And here is something Unionist and I agree on (unionist does this mean the moshiach may come ), I too believe that Peggy Nash ought to be seriously considered as a potential leader of the ONDP.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 214

posted 18 October 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would have said Kormos years ago, right after Benedict Rae left us in tatters. Kormos would have been the guy to rebuild after that. But that time, and his, has come and gone.

Many years ago, I had a beer with Gilles Bisson, and I liked him then. Not sure what these many years in the legislature since has done to him. Put an edge of experience on his easy honesty and what I found altruistic outlook? If so, I'd love to see him run.

Peggy Nash, however, might be a no brainer, for many reasons others have mentioned.

But now that Ohara and Unionist both find aggreement in this, it's time to re-examine that idea.

(and, as long as we are talking leadership, I am supporting Joe Volpe to replace Dion, as any good NDP person should.)

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Tommy_Paine ]


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 18 October 2008 10:40 AM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peggy would make an excellent choice.... But FYI Cheri has backed Tabuns already, so no endorsement there. And yes she does live in P-HP.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Mojoroad1 ]


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
adma
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11856

posted 18 October 2008 11:38 AM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I find this draft-Nash campaign a bit of a kneejerk reaction to her unceremonious federal loss--yes, she might be valid and "winning", but let things settle in a bit, huh? I'm getting a whiff of the macabre here.

But if she does seek office again, provincially or federally; given her background, how might Oshawa be as a fit?


From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
asterix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2419

posted 18 October 2008 12:19 PM      Profile for asterix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
adma, there might be a bit of a kneejerk aspect to it, but I really don't think that's the whole story. At least in part, it's also a reaction to the fact that none of the declared candidates have really generated a whole lot of excitement so far.
From: deep inside the caverns of my mind | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 18 October 2008 12:33 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by adma:
Personally, I find this draft-Nash campaign a bit of a kneejerk reaction to her unceremonious federal loss--yes, she might be valid and "winning", but let things settle in a bit, huh? I'm getting a whiff of the macabre here.

Well, I suggested her long before the federal election, so my knee isn't jerking and I'm not macabre. I haven't changed my mind on this one:

quote:
She's a woman, she's a trade unionist, she's got guts (if she can manage to keep them in a leadership situation), she could rebuild some links which the ONDP stupidly destroyed with the CAW, she can speak - good pick!

[Dafydd: Would she run?]

I don't know. I'm from Québec. All I know is it's high time you people had a female in charge, especially one with good credentials. No, not Cheri DiNovo.

I'm biased though. I'm a trade unionist.


Draft Peggy NOW. Make sure she knows there are masses of people that want her there. She is also the only one not tainted by the horrendous election platform of the ONDP in the last provincial election, and its do-next-to-nothing record over (pick your time frame).

quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
unionist does this mean the moshiach may come

She has already arrived, and her name is Peggy!

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Prophit
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15312

posted 18 October 2008 01:24 PM      Profile for Prophit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we should bring back Francis Lankin.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
enemy_of_capital
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15547

posted 18 October 2008 01:24 PM      Profile for enemy_of_capital     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
ok so I dont want to have to do it but someone should start the draft peggy nash committee thread (id do it but Ive started like 8 threads today and some people are accusing me of spamming...PPFFFT!)
From: Mississauga | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 18 October 2008 01:34 PM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
At least in part, it's also a reaction to the fact that none of the declared candidates have really generated a whole lot of excitement so far.

I'm not sure that's quite fair. Don't forget most of the candidates are still undeclared....the ONDP put the leadership race on hiatus because of the federal election. It'll start to heat up soon enough I'm sure.


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13870

posted 18 October 2008 03:28 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Prophit:
I think we should bring back Francis Lankin.

I'm pretty sure she supports Bob Rae now.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 19 October 2008 05:02 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
The Toronto Star writes about this today

Toronto Star


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 19 October 2008 05:14 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From ohara's link:

quote:
Nash declined requests from the Star for an interview. Her friend and colleague, MPP Cheri DiNovo, said Nash told her Thursday she is absolutely not interested in pursuing leadership of the provincial NDP, a point she has made before.

"First and foremost, she was interested in federal politics, it was her gift and her joy. The other thing, of course, is she doesn't have a seat provincially and we've all seen how difficult it is to be a leader without a seat," said DiNovo, referring to provincial Progressive Conservative Leader John Tory and Green Leader Elizabeth May.


It's very strange for someone to deny interest in leadership intentions on someone else's behalf.

Perhaps Ms. DiNovo (Reverend DiNovo?) should confine her public comments to her own plans, and refrain from commenting on Peggy Nash's.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 October 2008 07:00 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, that's really weird, isn't it? I wonder what her motivation would be behind trying to discourage the media from speculating about Nash running for the leadership?

Perhaps Nash asked her to do so? Although, if Nash wanted such a statement to be made, surely she would have made it herself.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193

posted 19 October 2008 11:41 AM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Buzz's comment about why Peggy left the CAW is curious too. It seems so vague and gratuitous. I wonder what Buzz was trying to suggest by it.
From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 19 October 2008 06:15 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:
I'm pretty sure she supports Bob Rae now.

Did she call you up and tell you that, or do you have a link or anything credible at all to back that claim up?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mahmud
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15217

posted 19 October 2008 08:57 PM      Profile for mahmud     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
On August 29, 2008, (Gilles) Bisson announced he will run to succeed Howard Hampton as the next leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Bisson


From: Nepean | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 19 October 2008 09:04 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, we've already had lots of occasion to discuss Gilles Bisson's bid for leadership - including comments like this one:

quote:
Most Ontarians give the NDP full credit for standing up for them when it comes to enhancing and protecting social programs such as public health care. However, voters want to be assured that the NDP will take economic policies just as seriously.

So public health care is somehow distinct from "economic policies". Interesting thought process.

Go, Peggy, go!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 19 October 2008 09:18 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would also be good to have the NDP led by someone who was not in the Rae Cabinet.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
adma
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11856

posted 19 October 2008 09:34 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or, the Rae caucus. (Bisson was never in cabinet, was he?)
From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 20 October 2008 08:12 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
So public health care is somehow distinct from "economic policies". Interesting thought process.

Go, Peggy, go!


Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
candle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3103

posted 20 October 2008 09:42 AM      Profile for candle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Andrea Horvath
From: Ontario | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 20 October 2008 03:21 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by candle:
Andrea Horvath

As previously discussed

here, and

here, and

here, and

here, and

here, and

here. As well as

here and even way back when she was running in the 2004 by-election:

quote:
Originally posted by Booker:
Just watched the CH @ 5:30 debate and subsequent TV coverage.

Another decisive victory for the confident, articulate, stately Andrea Horwath. On issue after issue, she looked every bit the next Hamilton East MPP.



quote:
Originally posted by Booker:
More coverage of the Hamilton East debate in the Stoney Creek News.

Highlights:

New Democrat candidate Andrea Horwath and Progressive Conservative candidate Tara Crugnale relentlessly hammered at Mr. Agostino and the Liberal government's record of broken promises, saying Hamilton East residents need a "fighter" at Queen's Park and not a person who makes "excuses" for breaking the government's promises.

"I'm an arrogant government's worst nightmare," said Ms. Horwath, to a chorus of applause from the pro- NDP crowd at Hamilton Cathedral Secondary School.



quote:
Originally posted by Phil:
I am fascinated by the energy this election has generated among my Steeltown co-workers.

. . there seems to be a real sense that dirty tricks and slimy tactics are completely wrong when they're directed toward someone like Horwath. Her local profile and reputation for integrity has clearly generated a degree of respect that is pretty rare these days.



From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
lover0fighter
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8398

posted 22 October 2008 04:44 PM      Profile for lover0fighter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FYI: There is a Peggy Nash for Leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party facebook group started a few days ago...

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31921988206&ref=mf


From: Toronto | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 22 October 2008 04:49 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.


Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrétien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

I think there's a campaign slogan in there somewhere:

Get rich, get healthy!!

or

Health via Wealth!!

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 22 October 2008 08:17 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrétien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 22 October 2008 08:24 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.


Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

It's too much to be explained by coincidence.

I would rather trust a poor person than a rich one with the survival of our social programs.

No country ever went broke looking after its people. Check out the United States if you require an example of the opposite.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 22 October 2008 08:49 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.


Canada's economy was pretty dull and grey in 1935. Liberals nationalised Bank of Canada in 1938 and pressured by CCF to do it. A war debt was paid down, and new infrastructure and social programs were funded by the feds creating near interest-free money - about a quarter of the total supply between 1938 and 1974. There was money for schools, hospitals, power dams and health care. "Stagflation" happened, and neoliberalism. Banking and finance was deregulated. Bank bailouts ensued.

Second to few other countries in the world national debt happened in Canada unnecessarily.

Obssession with paying down debt happnened unnecessarily. FTA-NAFTA happened against the wishes of a vast majority of what is one of the most well-educated and informed publics in the world here in Canada.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 23 October 2008 02:42 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
[QB]
Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later.

Nope - not true at all. Social programs in Canada were created very cautiously with paying for them always a concern. Medicare started in 1944 as a limited program to insure the cost of hospital stays, and that's it. The original pension plan was stingy compared to Social Security in the US (and still is, in some ways). Unemployment insurance wasn't very generous and not available to most workers until 1971. The history of social programs in Canada is one of incremental expansion up until we reversed course with cutbacks in the 1980s and 90s.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 23 October 2008 02:49 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly right Doug. Tommy Douglas first had to reverse the near bankruptcy of the previous government to be able to move forward more dramatically on social spending. Yes some things were done right away, but many others had to be brought in over time.
Fiscally responsible and fiscally conservative are NOT the same thing. CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.

From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 23 October 2008 07:08 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.

Rae's NDP ran budget deficits and injecting much-needed countercyclical dollars into a recessionary Ontario.

Rae's NDP was the first government in the province's history to reduce year to year spending in order to deal with the recession.

Ontario's economy began picking up momentum in 1994, and Floyd Laughren put Toronto on track for balanced budgets by turn of the decade. It would have happened if not for Harris borrowing $35 billion at high interest rates to finance tax cuts for rich friends of the party. Tories left the province saddled with a $5 billion dollar annual budget deficit instead.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 23 October 2008 08:13 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8273

posted 23 October 2008 08:20 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 23 October 2008 08:28 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 23 October 2008 08:38 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

Since FTAA-NAFTA, provinces are living in a phone booth wrt powers of taxation and public sector expansion. Canada is middle of the pack wrt overall taxation at the federal level. If Ottawa pulls tax revenues well below the OECD average as a percentage of GDP, then we're not going to be able to afford a lot of things.

Layton would reverse Tory-Liberal corporate tax cuts

NDP MP announces task force on NAFTA renegotiation


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 23 October 2008 08:44 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.


What about three decades of neoliberal Liberal and Tory rule? Magic wand much?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 23 October 2008 09:22 PM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

I can't say I agree. People will not agree to be taxed more for social services, infrastructure, etc if they think that the money is going to be wasted or just spent rewarding political allies.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 26 October 2008 02:11 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 26 October 2008 02:15 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't made out at any event since high school. Sounds like fun, though.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 26 October 2008 02:24 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tabuns media release
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
spincycle
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14767

posted 26 October 2008 03:18 PM      Profile for spincycle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?

Yep, I was there. Standing room only crowd in a very large room. Very impressive considering many had just come off volunteering on the federal election. High energy and lots of excitement. Quite certain other babblers were there.


From: 416 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
spincycle
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14767

posted 27 October 2008 08:24 AM      Profile for spincycle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.
From: 416 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 27 October 2008 08:37 AM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by spincycle:
Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

Ya, I was there, along with my (hidden behind some guy who jumped into the photo at the last second Prov candidate partner- you can see her hand- so she claims )....

Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
malpeque
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12480

posted 27 October 2008 10:40 AM      Profile for malpeque     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mojoroad1:


Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.


It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers!


From: send lawyers, guns and money | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
spincycle
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14767

posted 27 October 2008 10:45 AM      Profile for spincycle     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Looks like there was a number of Babblers there. I was off to the side near the membership table. Room was too packed to get into by the time Tabuns arrived.
From: 416 | Registered: Nov 2007  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 27 October 2008 10:55 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by spincycle:
Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

quote:
Also endorsing Peter was none other than Jill Marzetti, former executive director of the Ontario NDP, and the party's former federal secretary, and Janet Solberg -who introduced Tabuns- Steven Lewis's accomplished sister who's famous beyond her familial ties for advocating social justice within the NDP and outside of it.

There was a time when the support of the Lewis clan would clinch the election of a new NDP leader.

But didn't they support Frances Lankin?

[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 27 October 2008 11:57 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck. All this does pretty much signal Tabuns as the "establishment" choice, to whatever degree that helps or hurts.
From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 27 October 2008 12:08 PM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by malpeque:

It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers!


Yeah I was impressed by the diversity of the room....I don't know Janucz by sight, even though I lived in PHP for more than a few years.

Heh, as an aside, funny thing about the Torstar "comment" I wrote... as it was completely factual, I had to laugh when someone put a "disagree" thumbs down on it!

Hilarious!

If someone in the NDP (or supporter) was quoted as saying "The Earth is Round", you can bet a right wing wingnut or 2 (or a dozen) would "disagree".


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 27 October 2008 12:15 PM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Doug:
Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck. All this does pretty much signal Tabuns as the "establishment" choice, to whatever degree that helps or hurts.

True enough I suppose, But Peter was very smart when he announced he's "from the change wing of the NDP"...to dissuade that albatross from haunting him (even though he had no part in the Rae Govm't).


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 27 October 2008 12:17 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck.

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 27 October 2008 01:01 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All the candidates had the albatross, with the possible exception of Peter Kormos, who had his own problems. In relative terms Francis was considered the closest to Rae.

I think the support of the party apparatchiks for Francis had the perverse effect of reducing her support. Also I suspect there was some union guys going for the union guy going on (and yes, guy is an important word in that sentence).


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
PoliticalVixen
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15686

posted 27 October 2008 05:00 PM      Profile for PoliticalVixen        Edit/Delete Post
No danger of the "union guys going for the union guy" here. Given his labour record at Greenpeace AND his recent labour charges at QP Peter Tabuns is definitely NOT a union guy.

Tabuns and DiNovo are the kind of bad bosses we protest against not share a stage with.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
adma
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11856

posted 27 October 2008 05:00 PM      Profile for adma     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...
From: toronto | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mojoroad1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15404

posted 27 October 2008 06:33 PM      Profile for Mojoroad1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by adma:
Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

Thought about that one awhile ago.....but you know what? Howard has steered the ship from the farthest flung riding in Northern Ontario for so long, I really can't see that as a drag on the 3 "southerners" (inc Horwath).... I really do think it will come down to ideas and debates , leadership skills and organization.

Also, there is the "White Male" thing...Advantage: Andrea. BUT Peter has a huge and diverse support base. It was no accident he featured so many "new generation" female candidates behind him. And I'm not so sure it matters when so many big gun NDP women are activly supporting him....says alot IMHO.


From: Muskoka | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 27 October 2008 06:47 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

Try paying your rent, mortgage or grocery bills without being fiscally responsible. All fiscal responsibility means is that you set a budget and you live within your means. That is most decidedly not neo-liberal, right wing or conservative, in fact as Flarhety has proven twice now, they do the opposite.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 27 October 2008 07:36 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 27 October 2008 09:53 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto -

But of course he always said "I'm not from Toronto, I'm from Montreal."

Tabuns' press release says "Originally from Hamilton, he lives in Toronto . . ." Well, it worked for Jack.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
1948
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15673

posted 28 October 2008 08:13 AM      Profile for 1948   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...


And winning fewer seats in Toronto than the man from Fort Frances. At one point half of Hampton's caucus was from Toronto - whereas Layton's Toronto caucus has meetings whenever the Leader and his wife have a date.

Funny world.

Wilf, you seem like an historian, did the Lewis clan back Michael Cassidy? If not, that's another one they lost. If so, I think they're repeating history. Peter's a nice guy but he's not a Jack Layton much less a Stephen Lewis.

I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: 1948 ]


From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090

posted 28 October 2008 08:15 AM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thought this would be of interest to folks here. The first debate among the potential leaders for ONDP.

Saturday, Nov. 1, 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. OISE Auditorium, Toronto, main floor
Debate of the Candidates for Ontario NDP Leader
open to all NDP members, the general public and the media

Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

Format: Opening statements from each candidate, questions to candidates from our panel.... Street nurse, leading anti-poverty activist and author of Dying for a Home, Cathy Crowe; School trustee with Bluewater District, and Vice-Chair, Western Region, Ontario Public School Board Association, Jan Johnstone; and NDP Socialist Caucus co-chair Barry Weisleder; followed by candidates answers, questions from the audience, more candidates answers, and a concluding statement from each candidate.
____________________________________________________________________

6 p.m. Social gathering at Fox and Fiddle pub, 180 Bloor St. W., 1 block west of OISE

For more information, call: 416 - 535-8779 e-mail: barryaw@rogers.com
and visit the Socialist Caucus web site: www.ndpsocialists.ca


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 28 October 2008 09:06 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

You may be right - but what are the alternatives?

Prue (another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s NOT talking about energy efficiency).

Bisson (windbag from Timmins who is regarded as an ANTI-environmentalist and who cast one of the only votes against a bill to increase penalties for cruelty to animals)

Horvath (may be OK, but some say not quite ready for prime time)


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Olly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3401

posted 28 October 2008 09:41 AM      Profile for Olly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

I have to say, this is about the least inspiring crew of leadership wannabes I've ever seen. Can someone please convince Peggy Nash to run?


From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
malpeque
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12480

posted 28 October 2008 10:45 AM      Profile for malpeque     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.
From: send lawyers, guns and money | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 28 October 2008 11:09 AM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.



I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. He does seem to be the "safe" choice for the powers that be. And maybe he can "get down" and forceful in a fashion that Stephane, for instance, found impossible?


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
malpeque
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12480

posted 28 October 2008 11:24 AM      Profile for malpeque     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:


I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics.


Let me understand, you were at Sunday's event and did not come away with a clear understanding?


From: send lawyers, guns and money | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 28 October 2008 11:26 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tabuns' launch speech is on YouTube

code:


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 13870

posted 28 October 2008 12:08 PM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.


You're right - Hampton is a hypocrite.


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
janfromthebruce
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14090

posted 28 October 2008 12:12 PM      Profile for janfromthebruce     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:


I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. He does seem to be the "safe" choice for the powers that be. And maybe he can "get down" and forceful in a fashion that Stephane, for instance, found impossible?


That Green aversion to nuclear is a real problem in Huron-Bruce riding. Advocating a mixed system is realistic unless Tabuns wants to ensure that in cities everybody has a windmill in their backyard.


From: cow country | Registered: Apr 2007  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 28 October 2008 12:25 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.


Lankin was seen as being in Rae's inner circle while Hampton - who was demoted from Attorney General to Natural Resources in 1993 - was not. It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along and widely perceived that the party establishment backed Lankin.

I was at the convention and saw Rae moments after Hampton was elected - his face was ashen and he looked very displeased, FWIW.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
1948
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 15673

posted 28 October 2008 12:28 PM      Profile for 1948   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Max Bialystock:

You're right - Hampton is a hypocrite.


And retiring.

From: Ontario | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 28 October 2008 12:29 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow was that ever the best least inspiring speech I have heard in awhile from Tabuns. I got bored about 25 seconds in.
My money is on Nash, failing her getting in Horwath. At least they can deliver a speech.

And could we knock off re-fighting the leadership of what 11-12 years ago. All you do is turn new members like me off.


From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 28 October 2008 01:04 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what message is the Tabuns campaign trying to send by surrounding him *entirely* by women in the camera shot?
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 28 October 2008 01:07 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was also widely believed that Rae and Hampton didn't get along

hmmm...well i have to say that both Rae and Hampton are both pretty disagreeable people on a personal level - Its not surprising that two people with poor people skills would also exhibit poor people skills towards each other!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 28 October 2008 01:28 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who cares! Quit focusing on the past battles. It is the now that matters.
From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Other than Rev. DiNovo kindly telling the media that Peggy isn't interested in running, has anyone actually heard from Peggy herself?

Do I need to go appeal to her as one trade unionist to another?

Is there no Ontarian here who will rise to the occasion?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193

posted 28 October 2008 02:08 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess no one will vote Green anymore (tongue squarely in cheek).

Bring back the angry Hampton:

What happened to the ONDP's rebel spirit? Rae stole the party's idealism, somebody please bring it back.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]


From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 28 October 2008 02:14 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I actually thought that was one of Hampton's finest moments.
From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 02:23 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
I actually thought that was one of Hampton's finest moments.

Beg to differ. He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only). With an unprincipled stand, it's easy to let the agenda slip away from you.

Seniors need to be cared for, and public education needs to be secular and the same for all. There's no contradiction here.

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

This issue was amply debated on babble at the time.

Go, Peggy, go!!!


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193

posted 28 October 2008 02:24 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: V. Jara ]


From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 28 October 2008 02:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What makes you so sure that you would like Peggy Nash's views on whether or not to abolish the separate school system in Ontario?
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 02:29 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
What makes you so sure that you would like Peggy Nash's views on whether or not to abolish the separate school system in Ontario?

It doesn't matter in the least. The world doesn't revolve around that one issue. The ONDP is going absolutely nowhere at top speed, and they need a serious change. They need a woman, they need a trade unionist, they need an inspiring and hardworking leader, untainted by the messes of the past. That's Peggy Nash.

If she takes bad positions as leader, I will criticize her. I hope the same can be said for those who never criticize anything the NDP leader does under any circumstances whatsoever.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 28 October 2008 02:31 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Beg to differ. He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only). With an unprincipled stand, it's easy to let the agenda slip away from you.

Seniors need to be cared for, and public education needs to be secular and the same for all. There's no contradiction here.

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?

This issue was amply debated on babble at the time.

Go, Peggy, go!!!



What a load of horsedung. There was nothing unprincipled about the NDP stance on funding. If you really think the most pressing issue in Ontario education is seperate vs public financing you need to get out more. Not only that put I went past one of the location McGuinty made one of his big defense of public education speeches at the time all the media vans and the tour bus were there. It was at a school called Mother Theresa. Yu think that was a 'public' school.

And if you think the conditions in nursing homes that many seniors face is anything comparable to a debate of private vs public education you are in for a sad shock in a few years.

Hampton was exactly right and I for one was very proud of him and the NDP when he took on those reporters. The sad answer was though that none of them cared.


From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 02:44 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
There was nothing unprincipled about the NDP stance on funding.

Yes there was. They're ok with having public Catholic schools but not public Jewish and Muslim schools. That could well serve as a definition of "unprincipled".

quote:
If you really think the most pressing issue in Ontario education is seperate vs public financing you need to get out more.

I never said it was "the most pressing issue". If Hampton had said, "John Tory is an idiot, and McGuinty had better understand that we need to move toward a single public school system with careful preparation and transition", he could have got back to his agenda. But he (and/or his ONDP) were too cowardly, too scared of their own shadow, to take that simple stand of principle. So, he was fucked, and deservedly so.

quote:
Not only that put I went past one of the location McGuinty made one of his big defense of public education speeches...

What are you talking about? McGuinty and Hampton shared exactly the same pathetic position. Only McGuinty was a lot more skillful than Hampton at skating and diverting. He managed to turn it into a poison pill for Tory, while Hampton whined about "why won't anyone listen to me and what I think are the REAL issues???"

It would be nice to have an ONDP not haunted by its past that could actually look like a viable opposition to McGuinty's Liberals.

quote:
And if you think the conditions in nursing homes that many seniors face is anything comparable to a debate of private vs public education you are in for a sad shock in a few years.

Oh spare me. Either the seniors, or secularism, and I have to prioritize. Go Google logical fallacies. And what did Hampton do about nursing homes in 1990 to 1994? Or about same-sex benefits for that matter?

quote:
Hampton was exactly right and I for one was very proud of him and the NDP when he took on those reporters. The sad answer was though that none of them cared.

He didn't "take on" the reporters. He was whining and evading because he had lost. He's not a leader. Thank God he's leaving.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Left J.A.B.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9046

posted 28 October 2008 02:54 PM      Profile for Left J.A.B.     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please let me know which reporters pointed out the irony of McGuinty speaking about 'public' education at Catholic schools.

The rest of your screed is sure not the reality I remember living in Ontario in the 1990s. But then I wasn't an NDP supporter than. Just a young person trying to make his way in the world.

I was hoping that Nash might come in, but if this is the kind of supporters she would attract, it would doom the NDP to once again fighting for party status. I think I will look elsewhere.

You might want to look up the terms logical fallicies and comparative objects yourself by the way.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Left J.A.B. ]


From: 4th and Main | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 28 October 2008 04:50 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
code:

[/qb]

Okay: he's against smoking, nuclear power and rust belts. He's for Green cars, solar energy and wind power. And to the millions of Ontarians who have been asking "should governments exist?" he has a bold answer: YES.

Hmm.

And he's from the "change wing" of the NDP. A family member asks "is that the old white-haired male wing?"

Andrea Horwath.

quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
He was stuck, because of his hypocritical position on religious school funding (i.e. funding for Catholics only).

Not Hampton's stand. The Ontario NDP's stand, reaffirmed by several conventions. Don't you think Caucus should follow convention decisions?

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 28 October 2008 04:55 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Peggy Nash would probably be a better leader than anyone in the current ONDP caucus. I hope she does support one school system, but the NDP won't do it on its own. What needs to be done is pressure from party activists. Most NDPers support it in principle (we just need to overcome this silly idea that it "divides the working class" and turns the focus away from "real" issues).
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 28 October 2008 05:17 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Hampton's concern for seniors didn't impress the voters much, did it?




Actually, he lashed out at the media in the dying days of the last election and probably saved a couple of NDP seats in the process. It is too bad he didn't get angry earlier.


As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?

The Harrisites lowered the amount of personal care time for long-term-care residents (some wound up with one bath a week) to make the sector more inviting for private sector investment. Helping build some new residences also helped.

One could go on, but what the hell, the great unwashed don't count on ever winding up drooling over the side of a wheechair themselves, so it's not a vital election issue. Certainly not in the face of the now-universal appeal of lower taxes.

Like Bageant's American heartland - "dumb as a bag of hair."


quote:

He didn't "take on" the reporters. He was whining and evading because he had lost. He's not a leader. Thank God he's leaving.



Unmitigated bullshit,u .

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 05:33 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not uncritical of Hampton but I think he's something short of the antichrist unionist.

He voted for same-sex spousal benefits. He started drafting the Legislation when he was Attorney General. The government of 1990-1995 was generally seen as moving in a good direction on long-term care but, as with many things, they bungled the execution and the reform process was stillborn by the time they lost. Hard to blame that on Hampton.

I think he rebuilt a party that could have imploded after the Rae years and I think he got some unlucky bounces in the last election. I certainly think the sweep of Northern Ontario had more to do with Howard Hampton then Jack Layton. To be fair to Jack, Hampton's win in Parkdale-High Park had more to do with Layton the Howard.

Anyway.

Nash not after Hampton's Job reports the local fishwrap.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 05:54 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left J.A.B.:
Please let me know which reporters pointed out the irony of McGuinty speaking about 'public' education at Catholic schools.

McGuinty is smarter than Hampton. He got away with it.

quote:
The rest of your screed is sure not the reality I remember living in Ontario in the 1990s.

Then you don't recall the betrayal of a government, elected by efforts of workers and people with high hopes for change, which broke its promise to nationalize auto insurance; tore up signed collective agreements with its own unions and stole from the workers; and made same-sex benefits a "free vote" because of their craven cowardice. Check the history, since you were doing other things at the time, and let me know your verdict on that dastardly group, who did more to sully the name of the NDP than most in recent history. That betrayal needs to be washed clean.

quote:
I was hoping that Nash might come in, but if this is the kind of supporters she would attract, it would doom the NDP to once again fighting for party status. I think I will look elsewhere.

What a foolish comment. You're smarter than that. Show it. If you think blind uncritical cheerleading support is what your party needs right now, then you are its worst enemy. It will end up on the garbage heap. Your party's leaders need to be held to the highest standard imaginable. If they won't match up, they should be told to ply their wares elsewhere (Bob Rae got that message). You need heroic, self-sacrificing servants of the people in that position, people whose word is their religion, and to whom principle prevails over all petty political partisan advantage. Otherwise, call in the pallbearers and prepare the funeral baked feast.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 05:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I will miss Hampton as leader of the party. He is very knowledgable of government, and Ontario's power system. He would have made the best premier this province has seen in many years.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 05:57 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

Not Hampton's stand. The Ontario NDP's stand, reaffirmed by several conventions. Don't you think Caucus should follow convention decisions?

LOL, what's this, trailblazing a new tradition for the ONDP?

Every gang of hypocrites follows exactly those convention decisions which suits them.

The one time in history that they were in power - those decisions were conveniently shelved.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 28 October 2008 05:58 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I certainly think the sweep of Northern Ontario had more to do with Howard Hampton then Jack Layton.

huh?? how do you explain that credit for the FEDERAL NDP led by Layton winning almost every seat belongs to ONDP leader Hampton who never won more than three seats in the north??

The one seat in all of northern Ontario that the NDP did NOT win on Oct. 14 was Kenora - Hampton's riding provincially. In other words the one seat where you would think that "Hampton-mania" might have helped tghe federal NDP - it didn't.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 06:00 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by George Victor:
As for 1990-94 , you're not arguing there was any opportunity to expand programs in that recession? Or are you ?

1. Betraying the whole electorate by reneging on their promise of public auto insurance.

2. Betraying the workers' movement by tearing up negotiated agreements and stealing from their employees.

3. Betraying the LGBT community by making same-sex benefits (aka human rights) a "free vote", thus ensuring its defeat.

You're not arguing that "the recession made 'em do it" - are you, Mr. Victor?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 06:07 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

1. Betraying the whole electorate by reneging on their promise of public auto insurance.


It was very scary neoliberal old line party-induced nation-wide recession. $4 billion shorted by Mulroney - an "unforseen" $2-$3 billion dollar Liberal budget deficit handoff to the NDP

CUPE told Rae that those insurance industry workers would have a difficult time finding alternate work during that period. Perhaps in a successive term, like Tommy Douglas needed to implement socialized medicine in Saskatchewan

quote:
2. Betraying the workers' movement by tearing up negotiated agreements and stealing from their employees

And so Harris laid off ten thousand nurses, and waged war on teachers and students and poor people in general. Did unionized workers care about any of that?


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 06:07 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
He voted for same-sex spousal benefits.

He's not a homophobe! See, he's not all bad! Too bad he couldn't sway his caucus to have a whipped vote, and too bad he didn't call for the homophobes in his very own caucus to be tossed out on their sorry asses.


quote:
Hard to blame that on Hampton.

Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

The only thing he and his party accomplished was a disgusted electorate and betrayed supporters, followed by 14 years (and counting) of Harris, Eves, and McGuinty. Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 06:10 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's okay, because Liberals and other swell parties in Quebec have provided them with some of the highest daycare rates in the country, and worked to keep it that way, too. Who needs a federal NDP government? According to unionist, not Quebec.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 28 October 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Ok, can I blame auto insurance on him? Did he apologize on his party's behalf and promise to redress the betrayal? What about the attack on the public sector workers? Did he apologize for that? Did he say he would introduce legislation (in conformity with last year's Supreme Court decision on the constitutional protection for collective bargaining) to make it impossible for government to effect such draconian actions again?

The only thing he and his party accomplished was a disgusted electorate and betrayed supporters, followed by 14 years (and counting) of Harris, Eves, and McGuinty. Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.


Seems to me you know next to nothing about Ontario politics in those days. As a young union leader who publicly quit the NDP and the riding association of a Minister I think I can speak with a bit of authority.

Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.

If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame. However, the overwhelming amount of it belongs with Bob Rae. It is only speculation that others would have stood up to Rae publicly like Haslam.

As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge. And here is a little newsflash- it was many union workers, teachers, nurses and even social assistant recipient that helped put Harris into office. That doesn’t mean I agree with the social contract, but that in the fullness of time, it is pretty clear that many of us cut off our nose to spite our face by stepping aside and by doing that indirectly helping to elect Mike Harris.

ETA Call me a Hampton loyalist if you want, but I believe strongly the NDP would not exist in any real sense in Ontario without the leadership Hampton showed. I am in the NDP today because of Hampton and a few others.
That said I am looking forward to a new start with a new leader and to next Friday most especially.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Bookish Agrarian ]


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 06:44 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

huh?? how do you explain that credit for the FEDERAL NDP led by Layton winning almost every seat belongs to ONDP leader Hampton who never won more than three seats in the north??


I think Layton's done a lot to build a base in Toronto but I think in the North he was standing on the shoulders of the party. I give a lot of people credit: Charlie Angus, Gilles Bisson, Bud Wildman, the Martel clan, John Rafferty, Carol Hughes, Bruce Heyer and all of the perenial candidates, and, yes, Howard Hampton. Ask any of these people and they'd tell you the same.

Hampton, as I mentioned, didn't get the splits he needed in the North.

John Rafferty (a Hampton recruit by the by) lost in 2007 with 37% and won in 2008 with 40%. The difference? Tories went from 9% to 23%.

Peter Denley lost in Algoma with 37% in 2007 while Carol Hughes won with 45% in 2008. Tories way up again.

Dave Battaino went up against a popular cabinet minister in Sudbury and scored 27 per cent in 2007. In 2008 that same Liberal provincial minister spent the entire campaign attacking his fellow Liberal while the Tory vote surged from 7% to 28%... and the we took Sudbury.

In Timiskaming we almost won provincially and were blown out federally. Tories were at 13% provincially - 32% federally.

Nickel Belt felt close in 2007 even though we finished at 46%. Federally in 2008 we finished 20 points ahead with the same result. The difference? Tories went from 10% to 22%.

Jim Foulds lost the other half of T Bay with 39% in 2007 while Bruce Hyer won with 37%. The difference? Tories went from 9% to 26%.

That's right. We got MORE votes in 2007 but we lost then.

Do you get it now?

Next federal convention ask John Rafferty whether Howard Hampton was a drag on his chances. Let me know if he doesn't break your nose.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: TCD ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 06:49 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
Lots of penance is needed - and a fresh start.
Well, rather than kicking a guy when he's down and crawling to the exit, let's focus on that fresh start... shall we?

From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sinister
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9869

posted 28 October 2008 07:24 PM      Profile for Sinister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't believe Tabuns, Horwath, Prue or Bisson has what is takes to become elected Premiere one day. Peggy Nash is the only (potential) candidate that could appeal beyond our core support.
From: messy | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 07:38 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
Hampton has in fact publicly admitted that reneging on public auto insurance was a big mistake. How do I know, I was in the damn room when he said it.

And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

quote:
If memory serves the only prominent elected member who objected publicly to the Social Contract was Karen Haslam from Perth. To blame Hampton is downright dishonest and silly. There is not a New Democrat from the time who doesn’t share the blame.

Excuse me, I don't know what you mean by "New Democrat", but every union colleague of mine from Ontario that I can think of (except one weirdo and one CAW local rep) votes NDP, works for the NDP, federally and provincially - and they didn't hesitate to publicly damn the government for what it did to the workers at that time. Yes, let those big shots who all nodded and smiled in unison "share the blame" for what happened at that time. But Hampton, as leader, had to make it good again, and he never did.

quote:
As a public service union local president I have to say that Rae days didn’t seem quite so bad given what happened with Harris in charge.

Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, they didn't come "home" to the NDP.

Understand the depth of the betrayal, and make it good again. A new leader with no fear of self-criticism and no fear of taking risks in the future can do that. This crop of candidates can't. That's another reason why Peggy Nash is needed - unless, of course, you folks have someone else who is untainted by that past.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 07:40 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sinister:
I don't believe Tabuns, Horwath, Prue or Bisson has what is takes to become elected Premiere one day. Peggy Nash is the only (potential) candidate that could appeal beyond our core support.

Apparently with this crazy fptp system, any one of them would only have to lead the NDP to 22 percent of registered voter support. It's not all that tall an order.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 28 October 2008 08:01 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And he promised in subsequent election campaigns to make good on that broken promise? Sorry, I must have missed that.

Yes he did. He was very clear about it. I was in Walkerton at Hamptons side the opening of the 2003 campaign. He was asked about it and was unequivical

quote:
Tiresome argument, the same one trotted out to support voting Liberal instead of Tory. And, of course, the victims of the Rae government's betrayal are transformed into the stupid idiots who shot themselves in the foot. Well here's a tip: Sometimes, when you profoundly betray the trust of the people who have supported you and sustained you and made you what you are, they will endure a fair bit of pain just to teach you a lesson. And guess what - even when they were tired of the pain, and needed some shelter, they didn't come "home" to the NDP.

Understand the depth of the betrayal, and make it good again. A new leader with no fear of self-criticism and no fear of taking risks in the future can do that. This crop of candidates can't. That's another reason why Peggy Nash is needed - unless, of course, you folks have someone else who is untainted by that past.


It seems you didn't bother to write what I wrote. I was on the ground, my partner and I both directly effected by the social contract. I had helped organize a union in a large public sector workplace. Did I blame anyone else no. I absolutely saw teachers and union members, in a town with a large union sector, vote Conservative. I didn't- but I did sit out the election. In retrospect I see it as a mistake. Some of us actually learn from the past instead of trying to repeat it.
Peggy Nash is an able politician in some ways, but she is not universially admired. For me at least, the jury is still out whether she would make much of an improvement, especially when someone like Andrea Horwath is expected to run.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 08:13 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:

It seems you didn't bother to write what I wrote.


You were there, I wasn't.

In 2003, Howard Hampton promised to set up a public, non-profit auto insurance scheme to compete with the private insurers. He estimated it would grab 30-35% of the market share.

Sorry, that's not what we did in Manitoba almost 40 years ago.

If he promised something better (or anything at all) in the 2007 campaign, I missed it. Please refresh my memory, I am no expert.

As for the social contract, I feel sorry for you and your partner having been victims of it. But the real victims were not individuals who lost a few bucks. They were the Ontario NDP (self-imposed) and the trade union movement (led down a garden path), and the population as a whole, which saw a government deny fundamental human rights to its citizens - the right to bargain collectively and to rely upon the freely-given signature of the government.

It showed the arrogance of a party leadership that took workers for granted, thinking that workers have nowhere else to go.

What an irony. In actual fact, it is the NDP which has nowhere else to go. Once it loses the trust of the working class, it will die an unlamented death.

That's another reason that someone like Peggy Nash (and none of the others, from what I can see) can rebuild that trust. It is more important than all the other burnt bridges.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 08:21 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How does public sector expansion fit with the very neoliberal-Liberals NAFTA Chapter 11?

Or the Liberals SPP and TILMA?

I know, I know, their neoliberal voodoo is coming apart at the seams around the world now, so who gives a shhhhhugar ...


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 08:28 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can we please start a new thread entitled "Howard Hampton: hideous asshole and source of all evil" and then those of us interested in the thread topic can follow that without getting drawn into the upteenth thread about who was culpable for the shitshow NDP government?

None of the current candidates was in Cabinet during that government. Three of the four weren't even in Caucus. One candidate was still in school.

Heck, you can even talk about the NDP government in that thread. Just relate it to the CURRENT leadership race and save the long debates about the positions taken by the departing leader of the third party in a government that was defeated 13 years ago for the special "Howard Hampton - history's greatest monster" thread.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: TCD ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 08:29 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
Can we please start a new thread entitled "Howard Hampton: hideous asshole and source of all evil"

And then that same poster can tell us all about the piecemeal day care system they have in Quebec no thanks to Howard and the NDP.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 08:34 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
... those of us interested in the thread topic can follow that without getting drawn into the upteenth thread about who was culpable for the shitshow NDP government?...

Good idea.

The thread topic is, "Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?"

I've subtly provided my reply.

What's yours?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3138

posted 28 October 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Next federal convention ask John Rafferty whether Howard Hampton was a drag on his chances. Let me know if he doesn't break your nose.

I never said that Hampton was DRAG on anyone's chances - but i think that Layton is a vastly bigger asset to the federal NDP than Hampton ever was to the Ontario NDP.

Look at the numbers on "best person for PM". Jack was consistently in strong second to Harper and would get over 20% of people in Ontario saying he would be the best PM. Hampton - even after ELEVEN years as ONDP leader was always in the lows teens as Best Premier and way behind both McGuinty and Tory.

For whatever reason, the guy just doesn't seem to be able to connect with the electorate.

In Toronto, people like Prue, Marchese, Tabuns and DiNovo coast in on their personal popularity and a party loyalty - I have to say that its pretty damn rare that during Ontario elections anyone in Toronto has anything (positive or negative) to say about Hampton - he's like the invisible man.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: Stockholm ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 28 October 2008 08:56 PM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Though if one wants to attribute the NDP's pickups in the North to past elections - isn't the '06 federal election (with all those near-misses) just as important if not more than the '07 provincial?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 28 October 2008 09:00 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
None of the current candidates was in Cabinet during that government. One candidate was still in school.

Hmm. A new generation of leadership?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 09:14 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Good idea.

The thread topic is, "Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?"

I've subtly provided my reply.

What's yours?


Horwath intrigues at this point, for the same reason you like Peggy Nash.

From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 09:21 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
Horwath intrigues at this point, for the same reason you like Peggy Nash.

I know nothing about her. If she can do the job, go for it. I'll admit that one reason for favouring Nash is the hope of consolidating, repairing, renewing links with the union movement, even enticing the CAW back in. But new, progressive, and female are a powerful combo, and if Horwath is it - and especially if Nash isn't interested (which doesn't clearly emerge from the linked article up above) - then great.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
TCD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9061

posted 28 October 2008 09:33 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The article seems clear but her quote is less than that. I'm amazed that the local weekly tracked her down but not the Star.
From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9193

posted 28 October 2008 09:52 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm glad things are starting to settle down on the thread here. The only thing that seems clear to me is that the ONDP is still in a lot of trouble. It's been a long time since it picked a leader, it's deep in debt, and no one current contender has really blown the party membership away. It is a time for tough questions but also a time for renewal. The new leader faces very high expectations and is going to need to adjust to them.

As for Hampton, let sleeping dogs lie. He deserves a lot of credit and also a fair bit of blame. Right now, I am focussing on the credit he deserves.


From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 28 October 2008 09:58 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Democracy in general in this country is in trouble. We have 22 percent tin pot dictatorships in Ottawa and Toronto, and some of the lowest voter turnouts in the history of an electoral system invented before electricity...which was a time way before the Neo Tory-Liberal deregulation flip-flop floporama in this province
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 28 October 2008 10:04 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, V. Jara and Fidel - any views on the thread question? C'mon, stick your necks out a bit.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lord Palmerston
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4901

posted 29 October 2008 12:03 AM      Profile for Lord Palmerston     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow 144 posts.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 29 October 2008 01:09 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Closing for length.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

Post New Topic  
Topic Closed  Topic Closed
Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca