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Author Topic: Man died on ETS system
Andy (Andrew)
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posted 09 March 2006 10:33 PM      Profile for Andy (Andrew)   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A dude got killed in Edmonton when riding the bus.They need to re-look at the whole policy of people being allowed on the impaired. Half the time I catch the bus after 10p.m. there are drunk obnoxious people on the bus. These guys got on, were obnoxious, and beat someone up for asking them to be quiet.
From: Alberta | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 09 March 2006 10:56 PM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
people don't have to be drunk to be assholes

I think developing a different culture on the transit may help. In Edmonton I notice most people are not willing to chat. Seniors chat, and I have had great converations with seniors. Are their any initiatives in other cities that could be used as inspiration? People are very guarded, weary, and don't want to unintentionally piss someone off, because "we have all heard stories". I wonder if we could all watch out for each other.

What I am amazed at is the odd statement by friends and families of the young adults that have been charged in the murders of several people in Edmonton and Calgary in the last couple of years. They always refer to the accused as "nice guys".


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 09 March 2006 10:58 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That is utterly ghastly.

The problem is people being obnoxious and violent, not being impaired.

I've certainly been legally "impaired" on the bus in the evening. I don't mean drunk out of my mind, but certainly over the legal limit - and with the sense to leave my bicycle chez les amis after une soirée bien arrosée.

What rules could one advocate to ensure a safe public transport ride for all without increasing the risk of drink driving - or people freezing to death?


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 09 March 2006 11:03 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
They need to re-look at the whole policy of people being allowed on the {bus} impaired.
Would you rather they drove?

From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Andy (Andrew)
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posted 09 March 2006 11:04 PM      Profile for Andy (Andrew)   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Point taken that not every drunk person on the bus is obnoxious or threatening. Anyone well-behaved should be allowed on the bus of course.
Anyone threatening others should be booted off the bus - drunk or sober.

re: Edmonton bus culture I talk to people sometimes on the bus and offer to help people how do you think that will help deal with drunken asses though?


From: Alberta | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 09 March 2006 11:17 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do you have transit cops in Edmonton? I don't think passengers should have to deal with dangerous people. Toronto transit are pretty quick to eject people or call the police before things escalate.
From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
TemporalHominid
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posted 10 March 2006 12:30 AM      Profile for TemporalHominid   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
Do you have transit cops in Edmonton? I don't think passengers should have to deal with dangerous people. Toronto transit are pretty quick to eject people or call the police before things escalate.


I wouldn't trust EPS or the transit security. Their track record is dismal. They are brutal to visible minorities, and I talked to some EPS officer they say " F--- em, I don't risk my life for no one." They claimed they drove past beatings and only responded if dispatch called to cover their buts but they made sure the incident was over. A culture of corruptness and ineptness pervades in EPS.


From: Under a bridge, in Foot Muck | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
kuri
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posted 10 March 2006 01:40 AM      Profile for kuri   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I heard on the radio there's an inquiry into why it took the (real) cops so long. Absolutely tragic.

I think it's interesting to note that almost all the violent crime in Edmonton over the past few months has taken place in relatively expensive neighbourhoods.


From: an employer more progressive than rabble.ca | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 March 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
The problem is people being obnoxious and violent, not being impaired.

I've certainly been legally "impaired" on the bus in the evening. I don't mean drunk out of my mind, but certainly over the legal limit


Ha. I've even been drunk out of my mind on the TTC a couple of times too, but quite "orderly" and certainly not obnoxious or violent.

Not allowing inebriated people on public transit is an absolutely ridiculous idea. Why do you think so many cities make public transit free on New Year's Eve? Because they want all the drunks to take transit instead of driving!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 March 2006 07:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
P.S. Not that it in any way makes it okay for those drunk jerks to beat up another passenger, but what is up with telling other people on the bus to be quiet? By the way, I didn't see that in the article.

If someone told me to "be quiet" on the bus, I wouldn't beat them up, and there's absolutely no excuse for these teens to have laid a finger on this guy even if he did tell them to shut up. But I'd be inclined to tell them to fuck off, and take a cab if they want a silent ride. There are certain things you have a right to expect if you're a passenger on a bus. A quiet ride ain't one of them. I take buses all the time and hear teenagers talking loudly to each other. That's what (many) teenagers do.

P.P.S. Not only do I not see mention in the article (nor the earlier article linked to in the current one) that the victim told the teens to be quiet, but it also doesn't say that the teens were drunk. Did I just miss it?

[ 10 March 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Accidental Altruist
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posted 10 March 2006 08:02 AM      Profile for Accidental Altruist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm still without a driver's license so I've taken the red n' white limo for decades in Ottawa. The only time I've felt compelled to communicate displeasure with strangers on a bus is when they were being spouting racist, sexist or homophobic speech loud enough for the whole bus to hear. The last incident was a couple months ago when a group of men were huddled up near the front of the bus, making conversation with the bus driver and making sexist comments about 'lady drivers'. All I did was turn a round and glare - but they saw me and got the message.

I wonder what Stefan was asking them to quiet down from? Was is the volume or the content?

re: Michelle's PPS:

from the Edmonton Sun

quote:
Both girls said they hadn't spoken to the accused since Wednesday, but had heard from other friends they had been drinking on the night of the alleged slaying.

"They were drinking and I guess one thing led to another," said Sabatine. "It was an accident."


from the Edmonton Journal

quote:
An Edmonton Transit Service employee said four teens kicked the man to death after he told them to keep quiet. An autopsy determined he died from blunt force trauma to the head.

[ 10 March 2006: Message edited by: Accidental Altruist ]


From: i'm directly under the sun ... ... right .. . . . ... now! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 March 2006 08:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yeah, good question. I've actually done the same thing when someone was being threatening. Andy's first post doesn't make that clear, so I shouldn't have jumped to the conclusion that it was over volume and not content. In fact, I haven't seen it reported that the guy told them to be quiet at all, although I'm sure Andy is probably hearing a lot more local news about it than the two flimsy little CBC articles we have seen here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Accidental Altruist
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posted 10 March 2006 08:19 AM      Profile for Accidental Altruist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think I was editing my response while you were responding to it.
From: i'm directly under the sun ... ... right .. . . . ... now! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 March 2006 08:43 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, but: if these guys were capable of turning into killers in a moment, it seems reasonable to guess that the victim was reacting to something more than ordinary conversation, not just wanting a quiet ride.

Their friends say this was "an accident." Kicking someone in the head is an accident?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 10 March 2006 09:14 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
CBC Calgary reported that the guy told to kids to be quiet/shut up. Reports say the guy who was killed was a pretty upstanding person.

I feel horrible for the people on the bus. They'll be second guessing themselves about not helping. You never know if you'll get a knife in the gut for being a good samaritan.


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
NWOntarian
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posted 10 March 2006 11:29 AM      Profile for NWOntarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:
I feel horrible for the people on the bus. They'll be second guessing themselves about not helping. You never know if you'll get a knife in the gut for being a good samaritan.

Speaking of whom, from the Edmonton Sun.

quote:
An eyewitness to last Thursday's fatal beating on a transit bus in south Edmonton says he and the other passengers have been unfairly criticized for not getting involved.

The 19-year-old man, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said while he came to the victim's aid after the four attackers got off the bus, there was no way he was going to jump into the middle of the melee.

"I'm not going to jump in. I'm the only male (passenger) on the bus," said the teen witness, who weighs 165 pounds at five-foot-nine.

The witness said the other passengers were a 22-year-old woman, two teenage girls, a mother and her son who was about 10 years old.



From: London, ON | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 10 March 2006 11:47 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sure that six months in Juvenile Hall will straighten these thugs out.
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 10 March 2006 11:57 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why would you sentence them to the injustice of jail? Obviously there are vast extenuating circumstances which when we as a patriarchal euro-centric hyper-masculine society rectify will prevent this type of incident from ever occurring again. How can we hold these poor innocent victims of a society running fast and hard away from them accountable for their actions when we all know that they didn't want to be forced into those actions but due to the inexorable tide of human indifference to their plight and angst were left no choice but to react in the only way which would catch the attention of a calloused and hateful public.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Accidental Altruist
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posted 10 March 2006 12:27 PM      Profile for Accidental Altruist   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm sensing a whiff of sarcasm here.
From: i'm directly under the sun ... ... right .. . . . ... now! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gunner
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 16 March 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for Gunner        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:


I wouldn't trust EPS or the transit security. Their track record is dismal. They are brutal to visible minorities, and I talked to some EPS officer they say " F--- em, I don't risk my life for no one." They claimed they drove past beatings and only responded if dispatch called to cover their buts but they made sure the incident was over. A culture of corruptness and ineptness pervades in EPS.



HAHA you got ur head up somewhere very dark buddy. Its the old "conspiracy theory". We paint everyone here on this forum with the same brush eh (when it suits you that is).


From: Western Canada | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 16 March 2006 02:28 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
They're home now, watching TV.

Mind you, they're not allowed to ride buses, which seems pretty sensible.

I gotta wonder though: these guys (probably) killed a man with their bare hands, (probably) over nothing. And they turned themselves in, so mistaken identity seems unlikely. So why give them bail? If the lives of others mean fuck all to them, why let them out and take needless chances?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall around dinner time though:

Dad: So, Billy, about you running around murdering people for no reason. Your mother and I are....

Billy: Get off my case, old man! You don't know what it's like to be dissed!

Mom: Well, Billy, it's just that...

Billy: I don't need to take this crap! You're not the boss of me! (storms off to bedroom to play Halo2)


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 16 March 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well, bail likely means they were asssesed as having low flight risk, and low risk to reoffend prior to the trial.

However, as the incident itself could have taken place anywhere, the bus being simply the unfortunate location, I think that the order to avoid ETS is silly. This wasn't conditioning - a bus or LRT train isn't going to set them off, and the transit rider could get beaten three blocks from the stop by these guys, if they said the wrong thing.

*sigh*

Not that I'm saying they should or shouldn't be released on bail. And it might make ETS users who were spooked a little less wary knowing these kids aren't (supposed to be) riding next to them. Which has value. But, I do feel a bit frustrated by the conditions.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 16 March 2006 02:52 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Several gasps were heard from onlookers in the packed courtroom as Judge James Koshman told the four accused they could be sentenced as adults if convicted.

From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Canucko
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posted 16 March 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for Canucko        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TemporalHominid:


I wouldn't trust EPS or the transit security. Their track record is dismal. They are brutal to visible minorities, and I talked to some EPS officer they say " F--- em, I don't risk my life for no one." They claimed they drove past beatings and only responded if dispatch called to cover their buts but they made sure the incident was over. A culture of corruptness and ineptness pervades in EPS.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HAHA you got ur head up somewhere very dark buddy. Its the old "conspiracy theory". We paint everyone here on this forum with the same brush eh (when it suits you that is).


I dont trust ETS Security, ETS Bus Drivers or ETS passengers, its shit and if there are people who like ETS, I wann know what they are comparing it to. Having a pleasant experience on ETS is the exception rather than the rule.


From: Edmonton | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 16 March 2006 03:10 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If I was living in any large city today and taking transit on a regular basis, I think I'd carry my bear spray, and probably my hunting knife, to boot. I am *not* a pacifist, and if anyone tried something like that with me....
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 16 March 2006 03:16 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well, bail likely means they were asssesed as having low flight risk, and low risk to reoffend prior to the trial.

I have to wonder how that risk is assessed. Here you have four young men who beat a guy to death for "sassing" them.

That doesn't suggest a whole lot of impulse control to me. Have these young men suddenly, with the threat of jail time looming, come to an epiphany? I doubt it. I'm betting the next person to "sass" them is met with violence too.

I would have been delighted if any of the parents of any of these young men had said "Please keep him until trial; we don't want a murderer under our roof", but I suppose the love of a useless parent is thicker than water, and hey, if you can't teach your children to respect others enough to not murder them, you can always make up for it by tirelessly going to bat for them after they kill someone.

ed'd to add: we haven't really seen these parents in action yet, I know.

But if the pattern holds, their first public words will be something about how their Poopsie is such a good boy, such a kind boy, the kind of boy who helps others and blah blah blah. Count on it. I'm betting they're the source of the gasps Scout mentioned.

I wonder: parents are responsible for civil crimes their kids commit, like breaking a window and such, no? Would they also be responsible if the victim's kin decided to sue?

[ 16 March 2006: Message edited by: Mr. Magoo ]


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
swirrlygrrl
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posted 16 March 2006 03:24 PM      Profile for swirrlygrrl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yikes. I'm a regular user of public transit, in Ottawa, and have in the past been one in Toronto and Edmonton for years at a time. Never had any experience that made me feel more unsafe than in any other public location.

Smelly people, those who are loud and obnoxious and low-level disgrunteldness from employees are the most common hazards I've found. Ocassionally, someone uses a crowded bus or subway to grope or grind, or people have public fights that feel too exposed, and seem to have a potential to spin out of control. But those are very infrequent - I can think of three situations like this, and I've got more than 10 years of bus riding behind me.

I don't want to dismiss or minimize the risks that people face in the outside world, but the reaction to incidents like this always makes me shake my head, considering that the home is where women are most likely to be assaulted, sexually or otherwise.

There's nothing wrong with carrying something to make yourself feel safe (I usually run with a whistle - though, Heph, a hunting knife? eek. Dangerous, and illegal I presume?), taking self defence, and knowing that one should stay alert to dangers while on transit or in any situation, but I feel like things are blown out of proportion to the risk they pose.


From: the bushes outside your house | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 16 March 2006 03:32 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't want to dismiss or minimize the risks that people face in the outside world, but the reaction to incidents like this always makes me shake my head, considering that the home is where women are most likely to be assaulted, sexually or otherwise.

For the other 49.5% of the population it's the opposite.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 16 March 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by swirrlygrrl:

Heph, a hunting knife? eek. Dangerous, and illegal I presume?)



As someone who has been jumped, beaten and kicked by a small gang of "toughs" like this simply because I walked out of a gay bar alone at night (stupid, I know), and who ended up with blinding headaches for several weeks because of a concussion (not to mention the broken nose, the shattered teeth, the three cracked ribs...) I will no longer travel in circumstances where I do not feel safe without taking steps to protect myself. As a gay man, I have had ample reason to learn that if I don't take such steps myself, no one else will. If I had a gun still, I'd carry that instead. I don't, so it's pepper spray and my hunting knife. Never had to use either so far, but they're there, if I need them.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 18 March 2006 09:07 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There are no circumstances under which I would tell anyone to do anything on public transit, no matter how offensive I found their behaviour. It simply isn't worth the risk of provoking someone who's already demonstrated they don't think the rules apply to them.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged

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