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» babble   » from far and wide   » bc, alberta, saskatchewan   » Defeated BC Federal NDP Candidates Who SHOULD NOT Run Provincially

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Author Topic: Defeated BC Federal NDP Candidates Who SHOULD NOT Run Provincially
Dean Notes
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posted 14 July 2004 09:28 PM      Profile for Dean Notes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
1)Kennedy Stewart

-The party spent tons and tons of money in this riding. They brought Jack out. They did tons of free advertising. They released staff. They had Kennedy appear as a BC spokesperson, always in front of the news. But still he couldn't win one of the most winnable ridings in BC. If he couldn't win an ultra urban seat with an ultra urban agenda and ultra urban credentials --what can he win? Should go back to SFU!

2)Ian Waddell

-Going to run for dog catcher next. It's getting to be too much. A little to freaky left and was a little to obnoxious during campaign.

3)Bev Meslo

-Nuff said.

4) Jim Karpoff

-Back to the future. Again it's too much. I didn't like some of the things Jim said about Chuck Cadman, insinuating that Cadman was milking his son's death and his own cancer. Not classy to say the least.

There are probably more. But seriously, this party needs some credible, moderate voices if it's goint to have any chance at forming government. And voices that are from outside of Vancouver would be nice too. Unlike, this disaster of a federal campaign, where the only reason the party did well outside of Vancouver was because all of the advertising happend inside Vancouver, so fortuately enough, in the interior, we didn't hear the shitty central message.

Learn from our mistakes. Let's not repeat them.


From: Ol' Dixie | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 14 July 2004 09:37 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
How about Charley King?

He did everything possible, from policy to the NDP colours, to dissociate himself from the NDP but gladly took the NDP's financial support...and STILL LOST!!!

He had his chance...bye bye Mr King.


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dean Notes
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posted 14 July 2004 09:39 PM      Profile for Dean Notes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair, the NDP vote in that riding was 8% in the last election. King finished with 27%.
From: Ol' Dixie | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 14 July 2004 10:11 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Selling out for votes is dishonorable...he took the risk and it didn't work out. Unfortunately, I don't think he can get his honour back.

Even Bev Meslo went up by 6%.


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 July 2004 10:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I have to say that Cherley King had one of the most disappointing showing of any NDP candidates in BC. In most Vancouver seats the NDP vote went up to over 30%. He only went up to 26% despite virtually running as an independent populist trying to exploit hot button issues like crime.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
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posted 15 July 2004 02:12 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think you're being a bit hasty with Ian Waddell there mate. He would've made a great MP and last time I checked he was only a few votes off.

He's got some great ideas and I hope to see him around next time.


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 July 2004 03:23 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To Dean Notes,
1) Kennedy Stewart
The claim that Vancouver-Centre is one of "the most winnable ridings in BC" isn't even true. I think a realistic possibility exists that Vancouver-Centre can be won by the NDP, sometime in the future, but the fact is it has never been a federal NDP seat and I think it was only a CCF seat once *with a very different configuration then now I might add*. Besides this is well known but the Federal NDP always gets less votes than the Provincial NDP so if Stewart decided to run in the provincial riding of Vancouver-Burrard he would win hands down, as we all know Lorne Mayencourt is a horrible MLA and if the NDP nominated a paper bag it would win. Besides he said he was going to run in the next Federal Election not in the Provincial Election so bringing him up is a mute point. I also think that the reason Stewart didn’t win was because in Vancouver-Centre the possibility of a Conservative government was likely, and due to the riding’s large LBGT community that threat may have convinced many un-committed voters to vote Liberal whereas they might have voted for Stewart if that threat didn’t exist or for a myriad of other reasons.

2) Ian Waddell
What's "a little to freaky left"? If your going to make such a statement you could at least back it up -- and perhaps the same could be said in regards to the claim that he was obnoxious during the campaign.

3) Bev Meslo
I've heard why people don't like her but "nuff said" isn't nuff said. She managed to turn Vancouver-South, once an electoral wasteland for the Federal NDP into a respectable 24% finish -- she can't be that horrible. I know, I know, wasn't she the chair of the 'Socialist Caucus' of the NDP (therefore ready to be painted as a gasp Socialist) but they're entitled to their views as well.

4) Jim Karpoff
I didn't hear these things but lets if he said them in an inappropriate manner than clearly that's un-acceptable. But let's not kid ourselves part of Chuck Cadman's appeal was that people felt sorry for the way he was treated by the Conservative Party, and maybe even a partial reason was that it was even worse because he had cancer -- so yes there was a bit of feeling sorry for the guy, even though he is clearly somewhat popular in Surrey North. Also he does run on an anti-crime platform, and the fact that his son was killed and he has been a well-known advocate for victims rights obviously increases is appeal to some.

To Marc,
5) Charley King
So what if he ran as a "populist candidate" in the previous election. Don't other parties have people who disassociate themselves from their parties why must people in the NDP suckle the teat of the party? Does this mean that everyone running in the NDP need to speak like the Borg? Ok, I'm being a bit cheeky here and obviously I'm using hyperbole in regards to the points about King but in all reality most campaigns have these sorts of people so that in itself isn't so bad. I'm not a fan of those using hot button issues simply because they tend to cheapen debate and skew the political scene from one resembling some form of reality to one where idiot generalizations can be made but has he done that though? If it's an important issue for the voters of Coquitlam than it needs to be addressed and if the NDP wanted any chance at winning that seat then their candidate should address it. Obviously people who vote NDP don't like crime so what's so bad about him running on that platform, I mean what's so bad about it from a moral point of view. I think strategically it was a bit strange though because from what I understand Coquitlam isn't a crime filled place, and the violent crime is mostly gang vs. gang related -- perhaps he should of ran on something, amongst other things, that has more traction with the community. If the argument is that he doesn't have much political judgement that's one thing but the previous suggestions where bizarre.

P.S Just a question what did he sell out for? I'm serious.

2nd P.S Not addressed to anyone in particular:
Bev Meslo went up, because imho at least, she's at least a strong vocal candidate with a strong ability to get her message across. For that I rather like her, I think people also respect her (I do at least) because of her activist work, in the community, and as a person who as a mother and grandmother was still able to go back to school and get a couple of degrees (I think it was two at UBC).


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 15 July 2004 04:11 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This is just more of the same baiting. It's getting foolish.

I do have to ask, however, that when the NDP cuts candidates out for being too left, what's the point of even existing as a party? If Bev Meslo isn't at our table, then we've just sold out.

In defense of Kennedy Stewart, he didn't reasonably expect to win at the campaign's start. That he had a fighting chance in Centre and the best result since '88 is impressive. The feeling that I'm aware of in the riding was that people wanted to vote for him, and liked him, but were honestly frightened of Stephen Harper. Should he run again? Absolutely. He would be an incredible asset to either a provincial or federal caucus, not to mention government bench or cabinet table. He is who we need in public life; qualified people, not 'winning' people. If you get a crew together that can win superficially but isn't bringing anything into politics, you're doing more than Canwest Global ever could to undermine confidence in the state as an institution.

I'm confused about Ian Waddell being described as 'freaky left'; I've always had the impression that he was closer to the party's moderate side.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 July 2004 05:47 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Yes electing a socialist candidate in a more middle-class yet winnable (and oh how sweet it would be if this is the case next year) riding like Vancouver-Point Grey wouldn't be a good idea for strategic reasons, so therefore a strong centrist candidate might be a better choice. But to simply say that a socialist candidate shouldn't be allowed to stand because they'll scare of all voters in any and all ridings is just untrue and unfair.

I agree with the Captain not only does Bev Meslo have every right to be a part of the party -- she's integral to it. If the NDP wants to attract the support of activist types then they have to be more than just a bunch of slightly left-wing populists. They can have a variety of views and Bev Meslo's views are just as valid, whether you disagree with them or agree with them, as Peter Stoffer's.

[ 15 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


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LukeVanc
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posted 15 July 2004 06:09 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If Bev Meslo was running in PoCo-Westwood-Port Moody instead of Charley King, she would have won.

Nuff said.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 15 July 2004 10:17 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Dean Notes:
[QB]2)Ian Waddell

-Going to run for dog catcher next. It's getting to be too much. A little to freaky left and was a little to obnoxious during campaign.
QB]


'A little too freaky left'? Waddell? Are you sure you've got the right man?


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
babbler 8
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posted 15 July 2004 01:46 PM      Profile for babbler 8     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LukeVanc:
If Bev Meslo was running in PoCo-Westwood-Port Moody instead of Charley King, she would have won.

Nuff said.



Why? How? Both seats were equally unwinnable for the NDP. True, it annoyed me that King wouldn't use NDP colours but he did a great job making himself visible. Outside of the Port Coquitlam part King's riding was a practical NDP wasteland. The incumbant James Moore was also quite popular.

There was a lot of effort put into making it look like King had a shot there, which is what you have to do to be competative. I guess some people believed a bit too much of it because his result wasn't the least bit bad.

I agree with David. We need to have view points in the party that include both Meslo and King. I think they both did very well particularly considering just how much of our vote ended up bleeding to the Liberals.


From: take a break, we've been on this site too long | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 15 July 2004 01:47 PM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
To Marc,
5) Charley King
So what if he ran as a "populist candidate" in the previous election. Don't other parties have people who disassociate themselves from their parties why must people in the NDP suckle the teat of the party? Does this mean that everyone running in the NDP need to speak like the Borg? Ok, I'm being a bit cheeky here and obviously I'm using hyperbole in regards to the points about King but in all reality most campaigns have these sorts of people so that in itself isn't so bad. I'm not a fan of those using hot button issues simply because they tend to cheapen debate and skew the political scene from one resembling some form of reality to one where idiot generalizations can be made but has he done that though? If it's an important issue for the voters of Coquitlam than it needs to be addressed and if the NDP wanted any chance at winning that seat then their candidate should address it. Obviously people who vote NDP don't like crime so what's so bad about him running on that platform, I mean what's so bad about it from a moral point of view. I think strategically it was a bit strange though because from what I understand Coquitlam isn't a crime filled place, and the violent crime is mostly gang vs. gang related -- perhaps he should of ran on something, amongst other things, that has more traction with the community. If the argument is that he doesn't have much political judgement that's one thing but the previous suggestions where bizarre.
Fair enough...I agree with most of what you say. IMO, King stayed away from the NDP (as I guess he saw it as a liability) but was only happy to take the NDP's financial support. If you want to run as an Independent that is great but just don't take the NDP's money.

There is a difference between being an individual candidate with a message that works for your constituency and being a maverick who will ignore or contort party policy according to what they believe will play best in the constituency.

A Saskatchewan NDP candidate will inevitably have a different view on certain issues than a Toronto NDP candidate...this is good and should never be discouraged. My problem is when a candidate decides to run for the nomination and, once nominated, does nearly everything to disavow the party that is supporting him/her. This was displayed in King's choice of colours, the minimalization of the "and the NDP" in "Charley King and the NDP" and his occasional ignorance of party policy ie -- the Triple E Senate (which was eventually changed).


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
babbler 8
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posted 15 July 2004 04:02 PM      Profile for babbler 8     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To be fair I don't think King got that much support from the central campaign.

Personally though I think departing too much from the central campaign only hurts your own campaign because you aren't taking advantage of all that the central campaign is offering.


From: take a break, we've been on this site too long | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 July 2004 05:22 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Imho at least, I think that King's attempt to 'minimize' the NDP wasn't that bad -- in the sense of his "Charley King and the NDP" thing. Politicians do it all the time but the funny part is people aren't stupid they'll know that their part of party X. Besides as a mute point I've been through that riding and his signs were the same as most standard NDP signs in BC anyways.

(Also before the fact that he voted reform in 1993 thing gets brought up people change I mean Pierre Ducasse voted for sovereignty in 1995 would he do it again?)

Edited to add. Also in regards to the Senate he said that he believes in having either a Triple E senate or an abolished one. Personally I think the possibility of having a Senate that is fair, representative and democratic is still a good idea, although I'm against a triple E senate, however if the formula for reforming it is to difficult or is going no-were I'm in favour of abolishing it.

[ 15 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 16 July 2004 02:04 AM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LukeVanc:
If Bev Meslo was running in PoCo-Westwood-Port Moody instead of Charley King, she would have won.

Nuff said.


You're right, that really is quite self evident.

Bev Meslo took a riding that got 19% in the last election and managed to get 25%, with a net gain of 6%.

Charley King took a riding that got 9% int he last election and managed to get 27%, with a net gain of 18%. (I don't think any Dipper has cracked the 20% barrier there since 1988, when the NDP won 19 seats in BC!)

No knock against Bev, she did pretty well considering that she was running against Ujjal, who siphoned off a lot of potential NDP vote. But a member of the socialist caucus wouldn't have fared any better in King's riding, which includes the more affluent parts of Port Moody, and Westwood Plateau -- she would've gotten creamed. (Similarly, King would't have done too well in Vancouver South either).

I agree with Jeff. The fact that anyone thought that King could win just goes to show how adept he was at creating that kind of hype.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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posted 16 July 2004 03:16 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You gotta remember that 79 seats are available for the taking.

That being said, the party needs some previous experience (not all greenhorns) in an enlarged caucus.

Ian Waddell always had a positive and upbeat persona and never had any negatives that I am aware of (although he's been around in the provincial/federal sphere for as long as I can remember).

On the other hand, I personally do not want to see worn out retreads such as Steve Orcherton, Harry Lali, etc. receive nominations as they might instill some negatives from yesteryear in the voting public's mind.

I do hope that the majority of candidates nominated will not carry ideological baggage and be respected by most segments in their respective communities.

A respectable slate of candidates could bring an additional 5% of the provincial vote in an ideal environment.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 July 2004 09:24 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Bev Meslo took a riding that got 19% in the last election and managed to get 25%, with a net gain of 6%.

This is incorrect. The NDP vote in Vancouver South in 2000 was 8% NOT 19%


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 16 July 2004 02:10 PM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I stand corrected about this. Bev Meslo did a good job and so did King.
From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 16 July 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Bev Meslo ran in an unwinnable riding (mine) and got a decent finish. She was taking one for the team, and did a fine job at it. When Dosanjh took the nomination, it actually raised our profile in this riding, and I daresay increased our vote. That being said, I'm not sure if I'd like Bev in a provincial cabinet.

Waddell would be good, as well as Stewart. Throw in David Askew as well.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 17 July 2004 07:36 PM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

You're right, that really is quite self evident.

Bev Meslo took a riding that got 19% in the last election and managed to get 25%, with a net gain of 6%.

Charley King took a riding that got 9% int he last election and managed to get 27%, with a net gain of 18%. (I don't think any Dipper has cracked the 20% barrier there since 1988, when the NDP won 19 seats in BC!)


Totally, totally incorrect. The NDP recieved 7.91% of the vote in Vancouver-South in 2000 and 9.35% in Port Moody-Westwood-Port Coquitlam. So Meslo and King made the same gains in each respective riding.

However, the NDP has never held Vancouver South. The Liberals were even running a left-of-centre candidate, and the NDP candidate is from the socialist caucus.

King ran in traditionally strong NDP territory, as a centrist, against two right wing opponents. He did no better than Meslo. That speaks volumes about how mediocre a candidate Charley King is, and also dispells the notion that voters will not elect left wing NDP candidates.

Quite the contrary, left wing candidates seem to be a lot more honest with themselves and a lot more straight forward in their approach, and can do quite well. Voters don't know what the socialist caucus is and they don't dissect the backgrounds of their candidates. Just as very right wing controversial characters like Cheryl Gallant can get elected, so can people that are solidly left wing such as Svend Robinson.

I think the results clearly show that Meslo was a better candidate, and given a chance to run in King's riding would have defeated James Moore.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
babbler 8
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posted 18 July 2004 01:27 AM      Profile for babbler 8     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
With all due respect Luke, to say that King's riding is a traditional NDP area show's a lot of ignorance about the riding. This riding has seen a whole lot of development since the last time the NDP held a seat in the area federally. You just have to look at how much was cut out of it in the redistribution to realize this. Practically all the development has been upscale areas "up the hill" on the other side of burrard inlet.

Port Moody is not what you could call traditional NDP, and the only part of it that was half way decent was in the riding of New West Coquitlam. Most of the new stuff is very bad for us.

The older part of Coquitlam could be called traditionally NDP, though really it's more swing these days. Coquitlam was very much taken by the Reform/Alliance. Even then the older part of Coquitlam was in the New Westminster - Coquitlam Riding.

Having been involved in the New West - Coquitlam riding I can tell you we did a lot better in the New Westminster part than the Coquitlam part and we still lost. To indicate we had any chance of winning King's riding short of running Tommy Douglas or Jesus Christ is completely unrealistic. If you don't believe me, just ask the party strategists that didn't put any resources there.


From: take a break, we've been on this site too long | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 18 July 2004 05:21 AM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good point, Jeff. Havig golfed up on Westwood Plateau, I can say that it isn't exactly NDP territory.

Interesting that you should mention Tommy Douglas and Jesus Christ. Jesus probably wouldn't have been able to overcome Layton's inheritance tax and would have suffered defeat. Douglas might have won King's riding, but only because he may well have been willing to go even further than King to appeal to mainstream voters. When Douglas first ran Federally in a no-hoper riding in Saskatchewan, he styled himself "Tommy Douglas: Your CCF-Social Credit Candidate" as an attempt to capture all of the western protest vote. He put out flyers ads, and signs to this effect and was nearly kicked out of the party for it. In fact, he is rather unapolagetic for this in his memoirs, stating that the average person didn't care one bit for political ideology or the actual differences that separated CCF from Social Credit, or Liberal for that matter. All they knew was that they wanted change. He won. And later went on to become premier of Saskatchewan, leader of the Federal Party, and the name everyone invokes to as the standard bearer of the CCF-NDP tradition.

So those who are still apoplectic about King's colour scheme or some his policy stances seem rather trivial in my view.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 19 July 2004 05:53 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

With all due respect Luke, to say that King's riding is a traditional NDP area show's a lot of ignorance about the riding. This riding has seen a whole lot of development since the last time the NDP held a seat in the area federally.

I disagree. Re: Westwood Plateau. It is a middle class neighbourhood of detached homes spread out over a large area, but as a percent of the riding population, probably does not exceed 10 to 15%. The major population centre is working class Port Coquitlam. Even the new homes in Westwood and Port Moody are not expensive by GVRD standards and are, quite frankly, filled with modest middle class wage earners living in what is a "wannabe" affluent neighbourhood. A quick check over at Statscan shows that the mean individual income and household income for the riding is pretty close to the provincial average. It is an average suburban riding. I agree that Westwood Plateau is a wasteland for the NDP, not because its wealthy but because the lifestyle there is anathema to NDP values. However the population centres in PoCo and Port Moody should suffice.

The appropriate candidate, perhaps someone older and more active in the community, with a bit more work experience and visibility, can easily take the riding for the NDP.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
babbler 8
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posted 20 July 2004 04:51 AM      Profile for babbler 8     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just to be clear King's riding includes Port Coquitlam plus the areas of Port Moody and Coquitlam to the north of the Burrard inlet and Coquitlam Centre.

I'll give you that Port Coquitlam is decent for the NDP. But it's only half the riding (if that). It does not come close to making up for how terrible the parts of Coquitlam and Port Moody in the riding are.

It's true that the older more established parts of Port Moody and Coquitlam to the south of the Burrard Inlet are more NDP friendly but those areas are in the New Westminster - Coquitlam. Even those areas were stronger for the Conservatives than the NDP.

Also, there has been huge growth in the riding, mostly in the affluent and wannabe affluent areas. Almost 30% of the riding was sliced out and put into New Westminster Coquitlam in the redistribution and nothing was added. Basically this means that the riding grew by 30% Population-wise since the last redistribution. Even that number is low if you consider that the established (non-growth) areas of Port Moody and Coquitlam were what was taken out. Given that I'd say that close half the population in the riding is in residences that simply didn't exist when the NDP last held any part of the it federally.


From: take a break, we've been on this site too long | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged

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