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Author Topic: Defeated B.C NDP candidates who should run Provincially
Adam T
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posted 05 July 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for Adam T     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
These are all people who would run in winnable provincial ridings:

1.Port Coquitlam Charley King
2.Delta North Nancy Clegg
3.Powell River-Sunshine Coast Nicholas Simons
4.Maple Ridge-Pitt Meadows Mike Bocking
5.Comox Catherine Bell
6.Saanich North Jennifer Burgis
7.Malahat-Juan de Fuca Randall Garrison
8.Kootenays Brent Bush
9.Kamloops Brian Carroll

Candidates who should run in the next municipal elections:
1.Kennedy Stewart Vancouver
2.Ian Waddell Vancouver
3.Steve McClurg New Westminster


From: Richmond B.C | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 05 July 2004 09:23 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The provincial scene is quite a bit different than federal though , would these people want to run?
For sure there are some quality people that just narrowly missed going to Ottawa.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 05 July 2004 09:34 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree that people who ran well in BC federally ought to be considered prime recruits to run provincially. They have name recognition and goodwill. This is important.

I think that a lot of these people might actually PREFER to get elected provincially. As a federal NDP MP, you have to fly all the way to Ottawa on a weekly basis and be in perpetual opposition (though the federal issues may be more fun). As an MLA, you can just hop over to Victoria and back and you have a good chance of being in government.

The BC NDP has a golden opportunity next year since there are so many seats that are virtually guaranteed to go NDP next year where the NDP has no incumbents (ie: everywhere except where Jenny Kwan is running). This is a great chance for renewal and to assemble a star studded cast of candidates.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 05 July 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Ian Waddell's been kicking around the provincial scene a while, too. He was Minister of something or other from 1996 to 2001, so he's no stranger either.

Anita Romaniuk of COPE fame is thinking, I hear, about running against Rat Bastard in Vancouver-Fairview.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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posted 06 July 2004 12:58 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adam T:
These are all people who would run in winnable provincial ridings:

2.Delta North Nancy Clegg
6.Saanich North Jennifer Burgis
8.Kootenays Brent Bush


1 Delta North - Surrey Newton might be the better bet;

2. Saanich North - If any riding remains in Liberal hands on Vancouver Island this will be it;

3. East Kootenay has changed considerably as it has strong influence from Calgary - West Kootenay Boundary or Nelson Creston would be better bets;

It will be interesting to see how the federal Liberal vote breaks - likely toward the NDP in urban centres and trending the other way in rural areas.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 06 July 2004 04:12 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Can't Jennifer Burgis run in Sannich South? From what I've seen of her she would be a decent minister.

As for Vancouver-Kingsway I've heard Judy Darcy wants the nomination. And I've heard that a small businessman wanted the nomination too I can't recall his name right now. I haven't heard anything about Anita Romaniuk but I think she's done a good job on Parks Board and might be happy there or at least trying to get a seat on City Council especially if the ward system is initiated she might be the representative for my district from what I understand about local geography *should she win*.*

Oh yeah I think Ian Waddell should come back to provincial politics he'd be able to easily take out one of Campbell's clones in Vancouver-Fraserview or Vancouver-Kensington. He has previous government experience and he wasn't too deeply involved in the Clark government so he won't be a liability even though Campbell & Co. will try to make him one.

[ 06 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 06 July 2004 04:16 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Anita Romaniuk(who ran in 2001), Gregor Robertson(owner of Happy Planet juice company), and Judy Darcy(former CUPE National pres.) are all said to be angling for the Fairview nomination. Heather Deal is looking for Point Grey apparently.

Kennedy Stewart should take Burrard. It's just as important to have municipally minded people at the provincial level as at city hall, and, barring any acts of god, COPE is doing alright. Plus, it'd be new blood, rather than Tim Stevenson, who's maybe been around a little too long. I'd be just as happy to see Ian Waddell take a deserved retirement. I worry his credibility may be wearing thin. Plus, there will need to be a delicate number of Clark-era ministers re-nominated this time for sheer PR reasons.

Another island area that we can't count on is Parksville/Qualicum Beach; those people are old and generally wealthy. Word is that their vote alone kept Nanaimo-Alberni Conservative, federally.

Don't rule out Delta North. It's not top tier, but we took it in '91, and that's the election we should be looking to replicate, in terms of targets.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 06 July 2004 04:43 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well regarding the Clark era cabinet ministers a future NDP has to have some experience not too many old guard but perhaps a few -- of the decent ones anyways. Otherwise they just might be back in the same situation later with incompetent or at least a team of rookies, which isn't necessarily a good thing. And as far as I know Waddell is one of the clean ones he might be good to have around for one term or so for reasons of stability. Andrew Petter might be ok but I'm not sure would he want to come back. Would he?

I think right now though the three safest Vancouver Island seats for the Liberals are Nanimo-Parksville, Sannich North and the Islands and Oak Bay Gordon Head. The NDP will need very strong and *moderate* candidates -- but yes obviously strong candidates are a given in the sense that that always helps ones chances.

Oh yeah regarding Heather Deal she just might have a good shoot vs Campbell. If one takes a look at some of the old results they can see that this west side riding isn’t a slam-dunk for the Liberals. It was an NDP riding in a bi-election in 1989 and in the NDP victory of 1991 and in 1996 Gordon Campbell only won by 6% so he could be swept out with a good candidate.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 06 July 2004 05:21 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Absolutely, experience is needed in a huge way, but so many of Clark's ministers were tarred with a bad brush. Any calls of 'fast ferries' need to be defused right away, and the best way of doing that is to have new faces. I don't know what that delicate balance is, but I'm sure people will agonize over it.

Waddell, I know, lost a lot of goodwill when it came out that he was representing a group trying to put slot machines into the Plaza of Nations. It may only be an issue in hastings-sunrise, but it's a vote-deciding issue for a lot of those people, and they're well organized.

It's very true that Point Grey is winnable; it's polls went decidedly for COPE in 2002 as well, I believe. That would be a delicious victory, though if the Libs are in opposition next time, I expect Gordo to step down quickly.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 06 July 2004 06:02 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Lets keep in mind...

We need ethnic minority candidates... a lot of ethnic minority candidates. We have to do a lot better than our federal counterparts.

Some possibilities...

Sav Dhaliwal
Monica Malcolm
Raymond Louie


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 06 July 2004 07:39 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by captain_easychord:

Waddell, I know, lost a lot of goodwill when it came out that he was representing a group trying to put slot machines into the Plaza of Nations. It may only be an issue in hastings-sunrise, but it's a vote-deciding issue for a lot of those people, and they're well organized.

It's very true that Point Grey is winnable; it's polls went decidedly for COPE in 2002 as well, I believe. That would be a delicious victory, though if the Libs are in opposition next time, I expect Gordo to step down quickly.


I doubt Waddell wouldn't run in Hastings anyways. I think Vancouver-Kensington or Vancouver Fraserview would be much more likely. I have no idea who would be running in Joy McPhail's old riding. Any Ideas?

Right now the only 'safe' Liberals in Vancouver Proper are probably in Vancouver-Langara (which would be in play with around 50% overall support for the NDP IMHO at least) and Vancouver-Quilchena -- Vancouver-Quilchena in particular would need a victory on the scale of the Liberal victory in 2001 to become competitive for the NDP. And I agree a victory in Vancouver-Point Grey would be extra sweet.

As for Luke's point about more ethnic minority Candidates that's an absolute must. Especially in winnable ridings even though someone like a Mary Woo-Sims didn't win the nomination for the federal riding of Vancouver-Kingsway she would be a very good candidate for one of the east side ridings. Although I somehow doubt that Raymond Louie would want to leave city council he was only elected in 2002 (which is why I found the talk about Larry Campbell becoming BC NDP leader after being Mayor for a year or two hilarious) also Mayor Campbell will probably want to keep him with him on council for multiple reasons. 1) The COPE split between 'Classic' Cope and Cope 'light' whereas Raymond Louie usually sides with Mayor Campbell and the 'light' team 2) He's only been on council for two years 3) He's a strong ethnic minority councillor and considering the fact that Vancouver's population is 49% visible minority and he's the only one on Council Cope will want to present an image that they are inclusive and aren't just full of Caucasians.

[ 06 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 06 July 2004 01:49 PM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
an old rumour had both Shane Simpson of 'Stop the Slots in Hastings Park' fame and Raj Sihota, current political assistant to Joy mcphail interested.
From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
meades
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posted 06 July 2004 02:17 PM      Profile for meades     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
There's a number of great people the BC NDP could poatch from municipal and federal spots.

Let's also not forget from the federal scene:
Alex Atamanenko from Southern Interior,
Rollie Keither from Cilliwack Fraser Canyon
Itrath Syed from Delta Richmond East
Scott Fraser from Nanaimo Alberni
Alice Brown in North Okanagan Shuswap
Jim Karpoff in Surrey North
Pummy Kaur in South Surrey White Rock Cloverdale

Jennifer Burgis, Ian Waddell, Mary Woo Sims, Catherine Bell, Steve McClurg, Randall Garrison, and all the others already mentioned, I think it goes wihtout saying, are certainly awesome candidates.

And Municipally:
Sav Dhaliwal of Burnaby
Pietro Calendino of Burnaby
Maurine Karagianis of Esquimalt
and Lyndsay Poaps of the Van. Parks Board would be an awesome young candidate.
There's any number of people from the Parks Board or School Board in Vancouver that would be awesome, not to forget Burnaby


From: Sault Ste. Marie | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 July 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That assumes Lindsay Poaps wants to jump to the provincial scene. I get the feeling she will want to remain municipal - she helps put together those THINK! (Insert word) conferences that regularly go on in Vancouver, which is my reason for why she might stay muni.

If I had to come up with a Burnaby name, I'd say "Derek Corrigan".

Don't forget the North Island, folks. That provincial riding is, as far as I know, still somewhat similar in layout to the federal riding which, I remind you people, was a whisker away from being an NDP riding. The NDP had that riding in the early 1990s, as well. Colin Gabelmann was our MLA back then. (it was kind of cool having the Attorney-General as your MLA)

Someone may have mentioned the Comox Valley, but if not I would say that riding might also be winnable, again, for the NDP. I believe in 1991 it was also NDP, so there's historical precedent.

The one thing that bothers me is that the Green Party could siphon enough of the vote to screw a lot of stuff up. We need to not only steamroller the Liberals, but we also need to steamroller the Greens. Someone in the NDP should pull up the BC Green platform and compare it to the BC Liberals' platform and then make an ad that says, "Do you really want to vote for a party that pretends to be left-wing? Vote for the real left-wing party!"

Boom. Bye-bye Green vote.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 06 July 2004 03:40 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Waddell, I know, lost a lot of goodwill when it came out that he was representing a group trying to put slot machines into the Plaza of Nations. It may only be an issue in hastings-sunrise, but it's a vote-deciding issue for a lot of those people, and they're well organized.

My husband is currently competing work on the renovations to the Plaza of Nations to turn the whole building into a casino.
The bad feelings that may be directed to Waddell should be easily countered by pointing out the hypocrisy of of the Liberals screaming against gambling when in opposition and expanding gaming madly when in power. I can't remember the other building sites but there are many new casinos under construction.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 July 2004 03:41 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Someone in the NDP should pull up the BC Green platform and compare it to the BC Liberals' platform and then make an ad that says, "Do you really want to vote for a party that pretends to be left-wing? Vote for the real left-wing party!"

I'm not sure if that is such a good idea. People who truly are "leftwing" in BC already know to vote NDP. The people who are flirting with voting Green may well be people who are MORE likely to vote Green if they know that it is NOT a leftwing party. We have already seen from the federal election that the typical Green voters are often eccentric free-market types who are into organic salads and composters, plus some Marijuana/Rhino Party contrarians. Many of these people probably WANT an alternative to Campbell that is NOT seen to be idelogically left.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
VanMan2000
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posted 06 July 2004 05:08 PM      Profile for VanMan2000     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

I'm not sure if that is such a good idea. People who truly are "leftwing" in BC already know to vote NDP.


Not if the Vancouver Sun repeatedly sqwaks about the Greens challenging the NDP for the "left wing" vote like they did in 2001.

It's imperative for NDP to differentiate ourselves. We don't necessarily have to get into baiting the Greens on their platform, but we do have to get the message out that our platform deals with social justice, the economy, AND the environment.


From: Great Northern Way | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 06 July 2004 05:44 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree with you 100%, demonstrate the NDP has better policies than the Greens, but don't waste time with ad hominem attacks on the Greens for "not being a truly leftwing party" because some people actually like them for that very reason.

Let's face it. The main reason that the NDP has a good chance to win the next BC election is because there is no liberal party in BC. The BC Liberals are indistinguishable from the Mike Harris Conservatives in Ontario. If there actually was a moderate Ontario liberal-like party in BC, people would probably flock to it. If the NDP wins the next BC election it will be largely by default.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Lefty
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posted 07 July 2004 02:20 AM      Profile for West Coast Lefty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Well regarding the Clark era cabinet ministers a future NDP has to have some experience not too many old guard but perhaps a few -- of the decent ones anyways. Otherwise they just might be back in the same situation later with incompetent or at least a team of rookies, which isn't necessarily a good thing. And as far as I know Waddell is one of the clean ones he might be good to have around for one term or so for reasons of stability. Andrew Petter might be ok but I'm not sure would he want to come back. Would he?

I doubt Petter would come back - he didn't run in 2001 and has a cushy gig at the University of Victoria Law School. I agree we want some experience but typically, the really stellar BC NDP cabinet ministers (Petter, Sihota, Ramsey, Sawicki, Priddy, Cashore) are least likely to run again, while the cabinet/caucus duds of the Clark era (Lali, Stevenson, Orcherton, Giesbrecht, Waddell) are lining up for another kick at the can.

I can see some strong local personalities with personal followings in their communities like Jim Doyle, Corky Evans, or Cathy McGregor running again and doing well, but I'm hoping that we'll see a lot of new blood in the 2005 candidate slate.

Carole James is a fresh face on the provincial scene, so she'll need a strong team of credible candidates to present as a possible cabinet - including David Levi or another big name as a NDP Finance minister, strong labour, enviro and community reps (i.e. Judy Darcy, David Cadman, Rob Fleming, Derek Corrigan).


From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dean Notes
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posted 07 July 2004 11:03 PM      Profile for Dean Notes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Many good candidates being tossed around. It will come as no suprise that I think Charley King from Port Coquitlam would be excellent. I followed his campaign closely and was impressed with his give em hell attitude and his moderate, populist, maverick message. However, I understand that former PoCo MLA and Health Minister Mike Farnworth has declared with the support of King. I think Farnworth was a very strong MLA and Minister and obviously has immense popularity in his own riding, capturing 35% of the the vote in 2001 and holding the Lib to 42%. There will hopefully be a time for Charley King provincially. In other ridings-- I like Nils Jensen in Oak Bay, Gregor Robertson in Fairview, Raymond Louie in Kensington, Adrian Dix in Kingsway, Corky in Nelson and my two picks I want the most.

Chuck Cadman in Surrey Whalley. I know he's an independent MP, but his blue-collar, working class, tough on crime credentials are exactly what we need. I also like Victoria Police Chief Paul Battershill in one of the Island ridings.


From: Ol' Dixie | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 07 July 2004 11:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Chuck Cadman in Surrey Whalley. I know he's an independent MP, but his blue-collar, working class, tough on crime credentials are exactly what we need.

There is a reason why this man got into politics as a Reform Party MP. He has profoundly Conservative views on all economic and social issues. Just because someone spells tough "tuff" and has a grey ponytail doesn't mean that they are some latest social democrat. Gee, while going after Chuck Cadman, let's also ask Bill VanderZalm to run as a New Democrat as well. Why don't we also invite Gordon Campbell to switch parties!!

Seriously, I think the number one criteria for some one being a prospective NDP candidate is that they demonstrate some level of beliefs in the party's central credo of social democracy and liberal social policies. The purpose of political parties is after all to arlly people with common beliefs - not to say "we don't care what your views are, as long as your grey ponytail looks good on our campaigtn brochures!"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 07 July 2004 11:52 PM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know, there's a reason that Chuck Cadman ran for the Reform party AGAINST the NDP: he's not a New Democrat. Having grown up in Surrey and followed the guy since '92, I can safely put a lot of money against him ever joining the party, let alone resigning a position that is now a personal victory to run for them. You might like the idea, but there's no possibility in it coming true.

I can't tell if you continue to put forth this idea out of myopia, or just to push buttons.

Farnworth would be popular, although I've heard some negative rumours about his time in cabinet. Graeme Bowbrick is a possibility. Don't count Penny Priddy out; she's healthy again and topped the polls in 2002 in her run for Surrey city council.

I'm inclined to take Judy Darcy over Gregor Robertson, but I'm not confident. She lacks a, um, common touch. Kingsway is Alicia Barsallo's chance first.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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posted 08 July 2004 01:15 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by captain_easychord:
You know, there's a reason that Chuck Cadman ran for the Reform party AGAINST the NDP: he's not a New Democrat.

I'm inclined to take Judy Darcy over Gregor Robertson

Kingsway is Alicia Barsallo's chance first.


Charley King admitted that he had previously voted for the Reform Party.

Chuck Cadman is fiscally conservative like 75% + and socially moderate like 51% + of British Colombians.

The remaining 49% falls mostly into the social liberal and to a lesser extent, the social conservative mold.

Cadman resonates with voters in Surrey North in a similar fashion to Nelson Riis' 20-year tenure in Kamloops.

Cadman's forte probably still resides with the issues surrounding his son which are in the federal domain.

Unlike other independents, Cadman likely will continue to hold his seat as long as he wants it, which could be another decade.

He will probably continue to hold the seat as an independent, notwithstanding his statement that he might poll his riding to ascertain whether he should rejoin the Cons.

With respect to the provincial scene, Judy Darcy unfortunately might not be very electable irrespective of the riding she is nominated in, unless it's Vancouver Mount Pleasant.

Regarding Alicia Barsallo, the media in the 2001 election had a field day with her credentials as a member of the socialist caucus wing of the party which was certainly embarrassing.

I hope that she is not brought back onto the political scene.

[ 08 July 2004: Message edited by: Centrist ]


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Lefty
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posted 08 July 2004 01:33 AM      Profile for West Coast Lefty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Farnworth would be popular, although I've heard some negative rumours about his time in cabinet. Graeme Bowbrick is a possibility. Don't count Penny Priddy out; she's healthy again and topped the polls in 2002 in her run for Surrey city council.

I'm inclined to take Judy Darcy over Gregor Robertson, but I'm not confident. She lacks a, um, common touch. Kingsway is Alicia Barsallo's chance first.


Farnworth has tons of Casinogate baggage and is widely overrated, he was not a particularly effective minister, except perhaps in Health towards the end of the mandate. Bowbrick is a total write-off, Farnworth is like Tommy Douglas compared to him. On the other hand, I would love to see Priddy run again, her integrity and competence shine through, she's a popular Surrey City Councillor and would make an excellent Health Minister in a Carole James cabinet.

I'd take Darcy over Gregor as well. As for Kingsway, I think David Chudnovsky is planning to seek the nomination there as well.


From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 08 July 2004 01:41 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Chuck Cadman is fiscally conservative like 75% + and socially moderate like 51% + of British Colombians.


Cadman is no "social moderate". he is an extreme social conservative. He voted against amending the Human Rights Act to protect gays and lesbians from discrimantion in housing and the workplace. he voted agaist hate crimes legislation. He voted against equal marriage. He voting record is a 100% monument of hate - just like all the Reform MPs. The NDP and the BC Liberals have IDEOLOGIES. They are not just two interchangeable teams one coloured red and the other coloured orange. Cadman would actually make a perfect BC Liberal. They are an ultra rightwing party just like the the federal Reform/Alliance/Conservative party. If the shoe fits - wear it!!

If anyone could seriously suggest that Cadman could be NDP I suggest we also ask Stockwell day to run as a provinbcial New Democrat. i mean he did that jetski stunt so i guess he must be a bit of a populist. So what if he was an ultra conservative Treasurer of Alberta, that was then and this is now!

The NDP represents social justice, helping the poor, helping labour and progressive views on social issues etc... If you don't want that, then go knowck on Gordon Campbell's door.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 08 July 2004 02:24 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For a final word, Cadman played some footsie with the BC Libs back when he was still in limbo and the Panorama Ridge seat had opened up. The statement was vague, akin to his current 'all the doors are open now' line, but it was left hanging. OTOH, he categorically denied siding with the NDP in the current federal parliament, citing philosophical differences.

I hadn't heard that about Bowbrick; all I know is that he hasn't retired and didn't look *too* bad in 2001.

Chudnovsky would be alright. I heard a rumour that Kelly Quinn was also interested.

In other news, Moe Sihota's out of a job again...


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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posted 08 July 2004 02:28 AM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Cadman is no "social moderate". he is an extreme social conservative.


Stockholm, you have some good political insight but I think your previous posting was somewhat overboard.

Frankly, I personally do not have any time nor do I pay any attention to the voting records of individual MP's or MLA's but agree with your sentiments on what the NDP stands for.

That being said, in the BC context, "personal" social issues first appeared on my radar screen, as well as probably the rest of the electorate's, during the Bill Vander Zalm era when, for whatever reason, abortion became a hot button issue at his own initiative, which became one of the first galvanizing issues against that govt.

Many moderate members of that gov't abandoned the party, just like many moderate members of the NDP abandoned the NDP prior to 2001.

The ensuing 1991 election not only saw the election of Mike Harcourt's NDP but there was a migration of Socred's to Gordon Wilson's 2nd place Liberals as a result of that so-con issue, notwithstanding the Fantasy Gardens fiasco.

Chuck Cadman, during the election, was recently on local TV and re-equivocated his support of a woman's right to choose. I would hardly call that as an act of social conservatism, let alone *extreme* social conservatism.


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 08 July 2004 03:43 AM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by captain_easychord:
For a final word, Cadman played some footsie with the BC Libs back when he was still in limbo and the Panorama Ridge seat had opened up. The statement was vague, akin to his current 'all the doors are open now' line, but it was left hanging. OTOH, he categorically denied siding with the NDP in the current federal parliament, citing philosophical differences.

I hadn't heard that about Bowbrick; all I know is that he hasn't retired and didn't look *too* bad in 2001.

Chudnovsky would be alright.


Cadman has philosophical differences with the NDP and is not a good fit as a candidate. Same goes for David Chudnovsky. What's he doing in the NDP anyway? Seems like only a few years ago, the former BCTF Prez was shitting all over the NDP at every turn. Cadman's not on my list as he is a former member of the CPC. And Chudnovsky is not on my list as a former member of the 'other CPC'.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 08 July 2004 04:21 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't want to derail this too much, but as soon the party starts seriously red-baiting, I'm gone. I support the NDP over other major parties because I believe there are enough socialists within the party to matter. Knocking candidates for socialist principles, like Alicia Barsallo higher up, just isn't ok.
From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 08 July 2004 05:53 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Do people seriously think one-term councillors are just going to abandon their posts and run with the NDP in this election? That would look pretty bad on their parts. A few might but frankly I would caution against it -- it makes them look like they have Political ADD or that they just got into municipal politics to have something to do until they could get into provincial politics. It shows a disregard to their constituents.

Stockholm the BC Liberals are not an 'ultra right-wing party' socially in the least. If anything they're Libertarian the BC Liberals are a coalition of those who want the BC NDP out of power. Social Issue's get in the way! This was a problem for the Social Credit when Vander Zalm took over and it was a problem in the Liberal-Conservative coalition of the 1940's. It's about money and the 'right' in BC has learned this lesson well I doubt they'd make it again although the possibility exists.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 08 July 2004 11:42 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
To my mind, anyone who FAVOURS being able to discrimate against gays and lesbians in areas such as employment and housing is an extremem social conservative. Remember that the Reform Party SUPPOSEDLY was big on free votes and letting their MPs vote according to their own conscience. Cadman had every opportunity, but instead he voted in favour of discrimination every single solitary time. So did Keith Martin - whoi then he claimed he was leaving the Conservative party because it was "too socially conservative" ("I am shocked to see gambling in this establishment")
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 08 July 2004 04:56 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Keith Martin was a closet Liberal all along. It made perfect sense when this Moe Sihota said this on his now defunct show *shameless plug for a thread I started* but really was he able to stand Preston Manning and then Stockwell Day? I think he only ran for Reform because it was the best ticket to get elected in the 1990's (in BC).
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 08 July 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Except that Keith Martin was first elected in 1993 against Dave Barrett. It was a major upset. No one expected the Reform Party to do that well that year and barrett was supposed to be unbeatable.

I think you would be hard pressed to find an MP with LESS personal integrity than Keith Martin. He was more than happy to run with Reform in the early 90s when they were at their most neo-fascist and he even ran for their leadership calling for privatized health care. Now he is a Liberal. maybe we shoudl ask him to run as a provincial NDP candidate in BC.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 08 July 2004 09:57 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Keith Martin has never really embraced the Social Policies of the Reform-Alliance-Conservatives but if it didn't bother him for 10 years why the hell would it now! One reason was because at the time he jumped it looked like Paul Martin was going to win a massive majority -- around 200 seats including a major breakthrough in BC. It didn't happen. But Keith Martin sensed an opportunity and took it. So I geuss we don't really we don't disagree to much on that point....

Are the Liberals that much worse at least the Conservatives say what they're going to do -- or it's so obvious it isn't even funny. I mean this in regards to Fiscal Matters i.e.: Social Programmes and taxation. As for Social Matters people will still disagree with you characterizing the BC Liberals as Socially right wing because a good characterization is that they're a classical-Liberal Party (or Neo-Liberal) they may be in favour of negative liberty but not positive liberty, which usually requires action and money. I know what you mean in regards to cancelling programs that benefit people such as homosexuals but that's just it they would like to minimize social programmes as much as possible and if they happen to hurt such a group their response would be something along the lines of "oh well too bad" and "it's just business". The point, they're equal opportunists -- if you're not rich you don't matter!

[ 08 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 09 July 2004 01:07 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Keith Martin has never really embraced the Social Policies of the Reform-Alliance-Conservatives but if it didn't bother him for 10 years why the hell would it now!

But this is ridiculous. All those years from 1993 to 2003 supposedly Reform/Alliance Mps had total freedom to vote as they saw fit on "moral issues". There were a whoel host of bills that came up dealing with human rights etc... and in every single solitary case Keith Martin voted in perfect lockstep with Myron Thompson and Co. He never once broke ranks with the rest of the Reform Party on any of those votes on social issues - even though he was free to do so. His claim to have beena social liberal all those years is an absolute LIE!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 09 July 2004 03:13 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:

But this is ridiculous. All those years from 1993 to 2003 supposedly Reform/Alliance Mps had total freedom to vote as they saw fit on "moral issues". There were a whoel host of bills that came up dealing with human rights etc... and in every single solitary case Keith Martin voted in perfect lockstep with Myron Thompson and Co. He never once broke ranks with the rest of the Reform Party on any of those votes on social issues - even though he was free to do so. His claim to have beena social liberal all those years is an absolute LIE!


Posted by Stockholm earlier in this thread:

quote:

So did Keith Martin - whoi then he claimed he was leaving the Conservative party because it was "too socially conservative"...


I don't dispute your previous point but why did you bring the above up in defending the Federal Liberals -- because they're moderate? Huh? Your the one who started this strange discourse by insinuating that the Liberals federally are nicey-nice and pro human rights. Where as the BC Liberals where even the scourage of the Devil and somehow not liberals. Yes they are Liberals this point has been made over and over again but even though the two parties aren't 'officially' linked -- and the BC variety contains many conservatives it is a party with federal liberal connections. To claim otherwise is just not true.

And if the (Federal) Liberal Party was so socially liberal then why would they have him? I doubt your a big defender of them either but in all honesty they aren't so lovely themselves either.

[ 09 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
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posted 09 July 2004 05:16 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
K'pla! Q'lest for Premier! Martok is the greatest chancellor of the High Council Ever!

Now back to earth. It's always interesting to watch these intense discussions about who could be good candidates for the NDP in upcoming elections, or which of those from other parties might likely cross the floor to join us.

But in most cases, this is pure speculation, and that why people run for what party or put themselves in different political camps is often more complicated than a few proclamations, and why would join us is not that straight forward.

E.g.; Chuck Cadman: a generally personable guy who you can have a good argument with and not end up shooting him. Generally sides with the social/fiscal conservatives because he's too ignorant to know better.

He ran as a Reformer yet claims to be pro-union, hates big banks and, although he thinks the US is generally good (shows how naive he is), he agrees they are bullies. This is partly why he is mad at the Conservatives (too corporate). This is the basis for his populist image.

Yet I don't think he knows practically what "pro-union" means, and he still banks at a bank, not a credit union.

He is, for the most part, a single-issue candidate, who ran on a tough-on-crime platform, because of the loss of his son, and not really much else. He seems to associate gays and lesbians with nefarious and unhealthy, criminally susceptible behaviour (paranoia is a common condition for conservatives).

Could he join the NDP? It wouldn't surprise me if he did--that is if he gets mad enough at the other parties and happens to be looking for a home. But it wouldn't be because he understands, let alone supports, our philosophy and policies (in fact he doesn't like our overly libertarian approach on most social issues).

Rather, it would be for knee-jerk, shortsighted reasons, like he has always done, and in the end would probably end up quitting our caucus too after a time. Mavericks are usually impossible to work with (Svend to a degree comes to mind here).

But before y'all get too fired up about Cadman's potential future, keep in mind that likely the biggest variable for him now is his health. He is suffering from prostate cancer, and that's nothing to take lightly, considering it could end his life.


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Klingon
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posted 09 July 2004 06:04 PM      Profile for Klingon        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
K'pla! Again! Switching alliances in the midst of a battle is for the weak and timid!

Keith Martin, Lou Sikora, Joe Pechesolido, Bill Nunsiata (I believe) and several others quit the Alliance/Reform/Conservatives to join the Liberals.

Ujjal Dosnajh, Dave Haggard, Bill Barlee, Rick Laliberte and others quit the NDP to join the Liberals (although I understand several of these have either re-joined or are on their way back in--assholes).

Why? We know from their histories and behaviours it isn't because they like their policies or their leaders. And certainly not their philosophy--with one exception: political pay-offs.

Most of these people ran for the Liberals either because they were offered a pay-off or because they felt their political careers were uncertain and they would be more secure in a well-funded, media-supported, corporate-backed political club like the Liberals.

The Liberals, of course operating on the same philosophy, are happy to have them because of their already established records, public profile and experience, regardless of their ethics (they likely have none left anyway) or integrity (the Liberals have never had any).

Any of these types joining the NDP under similar auspices and being promptly accepted, especially as a candidate or in a position of influence, would certainly not say much for us in terms of integrity or principle.

It's fine if people feel they need to change parties because of a change in pr=philosophy or support for the overall direction of a government or political organization over time. But this crazy "party-hopping" that seems to have become so common, for such opportunistic and capitalistic reasons (money and privilege play a role in this practice), is just unpalatable for me.


From: Kronos, but in BC Observing Political Tretchery | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
marcy
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posted 10 July 2004 05:06 PM      Profile for marcy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
UPDATE:

1. David Chudnovsky has already launched his campaign for the nomination in Kensington. As the former president of the BCTF (representing 42,000 teachers) who could easily have been re-elected for an unprecedented fourth term, he is an excellent candidate and would be a fine MLA. At present, he is active on and promoting the newly-formed Charter for Public Education Network.

2. Shane Simpson, of the Burrardview Residents' Association (involved in the Stop Lafarge campaign) is definitely seeking the nomination in Hastings.

3. A number of people are interested in Point Grey but none of those mentioned on Babble have a hope of defeating Campbell. How about Joel Bakan, though?

4. None of those mentioned for Kingsway will win - especially Dix and Quinn- the former is a relatively unknown, unappealing behind-the-scenes type who was often perceived as too impressed by his own self; the latter, unfortunately, is not competent. The nomination looks as though it has already been sewn up by a young lawyer who has boosted the current membership to over 1,200 - at least half of whom are his sign-ups.

5. Robertson would be the best choice for Fairview. Darcy is (rightly, I think) seen as a parachute from Ontario, and there's a sense that she is operating from a place of entitlement. even if she's lived in the riding for a year. Anita has aready declared her candidacy, as has Ros Kellett, a teacher.

6. Murray Warren is interested in Burrard.

I recently re-joined the NDP - I am not a natural social democrat - and I, too, am gone the moment red baiting rears its ugly head. Seems to to peering out here, once in a while.


From: vancouver | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Lefty
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posted 11 July 2004 10:19 PM      Profile for West Coast Lefty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
1. David Chudnovsky has already launched his campaign for the nomination in Kensington. As the former president of the BCTF (representing 42,000 teachers) who could easily have been re-elected for an unprecedented fourth term, he is an excellent candidate and would be a fine MLA. At present, he is active on and promoting the newly-formed Charter for Public Education Network.

Thanks Marcy, I wrongly stated that David was running in Kingsway, when in fact it's Vancouver-Kensington. I agree he would be an excellent MLA and a great bridge-builder with Green supporters and other non-affiliated activists.

quote:
4. None of those mentioned for Kingsway will win - especially Dix and Quinn- the former is a relatively unknown, unappealing behind-the-scenes type who was often perceived as too impressed by his own self; the latter, unfortunately, is not competent. The nomination looks as though it has already been sewn up by a young lawyer who has boosted the current membership to over 1,200 - at least half of whom are his sign-ups.

I used to agree with you about Dix, but he's been rehabilitating himself quite well recently with a column in the Times Colonist and solid TV appearances on the "New VI" (before this week's purge of all competent journalists and commentators there ). Quinn is nice as a person but doesn't have what it takes to be a good MLA.

Who is the "young lawyer" and how will he do against the fervent Barsallo faction? I know Alicia's gang have been working fevershily for the Kingsway nomination for at least a year and they won't give up without a hell of a fight.

quote:
5. Robertson would be the best choice for Fairview. Darcy is (rightly, I think) seen as a parachute from Ontario, and there's a sense that she is operating from a place of entitlement. even if she's lived in the riding for a year. Anita has aready declared her candidacy, as has Ros Kellett, a teacher.

I think that's an unfair slap at Judy. Ed Broadbent only moved to Ottawa a couple of years ago from what I understand, and it didn't seem to bother Ottawa Centre voters one bit. Judy has a solid record of being a compelling advocate for working people and for a social democratic vision for Canada. If the only critique people can throw at her is that she hasn't lived in the riding long enough, that's a pretty weak argument IMHO.


From: Victoria, B.C. | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 12 July 2004 09:38 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by marcy:
4. None of those mentioned for Kingsway will win - especially Dix and Quinn- the former is a relatively unknown, unappealing behind-the-scenes type who was often perceived as too impressed by his own self; the latter, unfortunately, is not competent. The nomination looks as though it has already been sewn up by a young lawyer who has boosted the current membership to over 1,200 - at least half of whom are his sign-ups.

5. Robertson would be the best choice for Fairview. Darcy is (rightly, I think) seen as a parachute from Ontario, and there's a sense that she is operating from a place of entitlement. even if she's lived in the riding for a year. Anita has aready declared her candidacy, as has Ros Kellett, a teacher.


Re: Adrian Dix may not run he, or even win the nomination, but I have to disagree with your opinion of him. He has previous experience even if it's as a 'backroom boy', lets not kid ourselves but 'backroom boy's'*or girls* are still important (as opposed to complete outsiders who are often favoured for reasons of optics among others). When the NewVi still had their political shows Adrian Dix was often on as a replacement when Moe Sihota was away -- and Imho at least he did a good job. My point is I think he would be a good candidate, and more than capable of taking the riding away from Campbell Clone 56 (or is it 43? ).

Re: Vancouver-Frasierview what previous political experience does Gregor Robertson have? And if he has none then is he a good debator and public speaker and communicator? I really would love to see Gary Collins defeated, but sending a neophyte with no political *talent* against him would surely produce an undesireable result. He's an intresting candidate, I've seen his site -- which is obviously biased, but how good is he? Judy Darcy and Anita Romaniuk have previous experience, as far as I know Gregor Robertson doesn't. It's always a risk going with the person with no previous experience.

[ 12 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 July 2004 10:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's "Vancouver-Fairview", by the way.

And yes, I know this is incredibly petty, but I would like to see a campaign prop consisting of an extermination truck painted up with signs saying "RAT BASTARD FUMIGATION PATROL".


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
babbler 8
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posted 12 July 2004 10:35 PM      Profile for babbler 8     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The New Westminster - Coquitlam recount started today and unfortunately ended today. We ended up calling it off due to lack of change in the polls where we thought there might be problems.

Given that, I'd really like to see Steve McClurg run provincially. He did a really great job in the campaign holding Forseth's feet to the fire. The close result was a really good one for us since we were not really expecting a win there. Especially since we lost in other places where we thought we had a lock.

Having worked on several campaigns in the past one of the things that I measure a candidate by is how they handle themselves with their workers and volunteers, especially in defeat.

McClurg did great in this area, always keeping his cool and staying up beat at times that would crush other candidates. He also always made a point of being pleasant and respectful to everyone who was working for him. He never forgot the value and sacrifice of the volunteers.


From: take a break, we've been on this site too long | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 13 July 2004 04:08 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
That's "Vancouver-Fairview", by the way.


Ooops I know typo that went completely out of detection, it's my riding so I should know. Perhaps they shouldn't sound so similar.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Dean Notes
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posted 14 July 2004 09:14 PM      Profile for Dean Notes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Good god...save us from a candidacy from communists like David Chudnovsky. He epitomizes the problems with the NDP, along with his pal Alicia Barsallo. These are the same people who are the very first to shit all over the NDP, but when times are good, they want to be candidates. Give me a break. Another thing...have they even ever worked a single day in their life. I'm getting sick and tired of these BCTF activists who although they claim to represent working people, wouldn't know one if they came face to face. The Chud is too left, too urban and generally too insane and whacked to be even considered.

[ 14 July 2004: Message edited by: Dean Notes ]


From: Ol' Dixie | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dean Notes
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posted 14 July 2004 09:17 PM      Profile for Dean Notes     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I know for a fact that Chuck Cadman and many of his activists (campaign co-chairs) vote NDP provincially. In fact, Former Premier Glen Clark came very close to getting Cadman to run for the NDP in 96.
From: Ol' Dixie | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 14 July 2004 10:49 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Chud is too left, too urban and generally too insane and whacked to be even considered.

God forbid that we shoudl run an urban person in a downtown Vancouver riding!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 15 July 2004 04:20 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry to have to say it, but Alicia Barsallo was a candidate for Kingsway in 2001, which was about the worst year to run in the past 50-odd years. That's some fairweather support for you.

Also, for you to criticize people for shitting on the NDP is, frankly, rather rich. I've got a lot more time for criticism from within the party, from people who know what they're talking about and might actually do something constructive in response, than for a dime-store McCarthy on an internet message board.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 July 2004 04:25 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Kensington isn't a downtown Vancouver riding -- the downtown is on the Burrard Peninsula! *Sorry I couldn't resist but I've been out of town and so many out of towners seems to think that areas like Vancouver-Fairview and Vancouver-Kensington are downtown they're not!!!! -- Although I'll agree with you they're obviously urban ridings *

Now on a completely different note I wonder if Moe Sihota will get back into provincial politics now that he's not on TV anymore. I would really rather see him get back on TV -- or even radio, because we need left-wing commentators, but then again that's far from being a shoe-in because of the simple fact that he's a left-wing commentator *Yeah for the Net*. That being said I don't know that he would want to. Also Maybe he's still a little to connected to the previous administration, although I hope the NDP doesn't run screaming from all NDP MLA's (and former Ministers) from the 90's. One other thing that might make his presence unnecessary would be the fact that Randall Garrisson or Maurine Karagianis *even though she was somewhat recently elected and I've made my feelings about that clear* may take a run at the nomination.

Re: Chudnovsky I would prefer someone like Mary-Woo Sims to him. Why? One reason is her previous job as head of the BC human rights commission -- a prominent position where she has clear and obvious government experience. Two she's a multiple-minority in regards to parliamentary representation, she's a lesbian, of Chinese decent and a woman. All three groups are underrepresented and instead of having someone who would simply be a talking head from those groups, she would imho at least be a good MLA, and possible cabinet minister.


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Erik Pool
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posted 15 July 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Erik Pool     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by marcy:
UPDATE:
I recently re-joined the NDP - I am not a natural social democrat - and I, too, am gone the moment red baiting rears its ugly head. Seems to to peering out here, once in a while.


Tell me, what is red-baiting? Is that calling a communist a communist or calling a non-communist a communist?

Regardless, is there such a thing as liberal-baiting in the NDP? It sould seem that there is when people are pushed aside because they never worked a picket line, or worse, crossed one because they were legally required to do so.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 15 July 2004 04:42 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

[ 15 July 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 16 July 2004 01:06 AM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Red-baiting, as I use it, is the denunciation of people for communist beliefs, regardless of whether they do hold them or not, and generally in a situation where they're not shouting it from the rooftops themselves. An example is the people suggesting that David Chudnovsky is untouchable because he was once a member of the CPC. Whether he was or not is irrelevant; he's being dismissed for (supposedly) holding communist beliefs.

On the latter, well, you'd better have a damn good reason for crossing a picket line. Really, though the only way people are going to know or care is if you don't understand what the issue is. If someone crosses a picket line, but understands the symbolic implications of the act and can justify their actions, I'd be more willing to shake their hand than that of someone who simply doesn't get the concept of a picket line and/or class solidarity.

The other side is the old activist cred game; comparing occupation stories, numbering rallies attended/organized, politicians pied, etc. It's really just a swordfight in the showers. Macho posturing happens everywhere, and it's equally counter-productive in the NDP as anywhere else.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 16 July 2004 01:43 AM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Why are Commuists exempted from criticism here while people are attacked for being closet Liberals or Conservatives? Do Communists enjoy some special status among New Democrats that I am unaware of. If it's okay to criticize Liberals, Conservatives, or even moderate New Democrats, then it is also fair game to criticize Communists.

Let's put it this way: I've had more family members tortured and killed by Communists than I have by liberals.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
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posted 16 July 2004 02:26 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Well I don't think I need to defend anyone but take a look at captain_easychord's last paragraph. I think it explains it somewhat.
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 July 2004 09:21 AM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Troll alert on "dagmar".
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 16 July 2004 02:12 PM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
Troll alert on "dagmar".

In other words, you find it easier to attack the person than come up with a halfway intelligible response.

[ 16 July 2004: Message edited by: Dagmar ]


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 16 July 2004 02:21 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, but anyone who thinks "Communists" are exempt from criticism here is either a troll, or is just not paying attention.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
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posted 16 July 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Dagmar: No; in other words, you're being provocative for it's own sake, rather than actually trying to engage in discussion. Grow up or get lost.

There's enough stigma around communism and Marxist ideology/rhetoric as a whole that to levy the charge carries weight, and actual beliefs and their relevance are rarely discussed. Again, see critisicms of Bev Meslo and David Chudnovsky. Criticism of moderate New Democrats, Liberals, and Conservatives, however, is almost always required to have backing, and is often fairly challenged.

x-post: Hinterland is OTM.

(edited for cross-post)

[ 16 July 2004: Message edited by: captain_easychord ]


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 July 2004 02:25 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
For the record, i don't give a damn if someone was a Communist in the past. We all know about how Gilles Duceppe was a Maoist at one time. I do care about what people believe in now. I realize that the NDP has to accommodate somewhat of a range of views, but there has to be some basically core belief in social democracy that unites us.

I do NOT want to see party nominations hijacked by people who still believe in totalitarian Communism (does anyone still believe in that?) and are just using the NDP label as a convenient way to get their foot in the door. I also do NOT want to see NDP nominations being offered to out and out rightwing conservatives like Chuck Cadman.

I don't call that "red baiting". To me "red baiting" is using ad hominem insults to stigmatize someone for past beliefs. For example, I would call it red baiting if the Liberals had run TV ads in Quebec that showed Gilles Duceppe morphing into Mao Tse Tung and then having crawl at the bottom of the screen reminding everyone of how many people Mao killed duringh the Cultural Revolution!


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dagmar
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posted 16 July 2004 02:45 PM      Profile for Dagmar   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stockholm:
I also do NOT want to see NDP nominations being offered to out and out rightwing conservatives like Chuck Cadman.

Stockhom:I would agree as long as there is evidence that Cadman still believes in the tenents of right wing Conservatism. (And he probably does.)

But if he has changed his ways, why not welcome him into the fold as one would a reformed communist?

For others: I was paying attention to the debate, and a number of people WERE suggesting that one shouldn't criticize someone for being a former member of the communist party. I was merely asking a pointed question in my prior post, one that has not been answered as of yet.


From: Santa looks a lot like Daggy! | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 16 July 2004 02:51 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't care if people are former Communists or former Liberals or former Reformers etc... as long as the word FORMER is operative.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
chimo
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posted 21 July 2004 04:51 PM      Profile for chimo        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
how about UVic dean of law Andrew Petter? He blew the whistle that brought down Glen Clark's government (I think). If he ran for the leadership, he probably would have won, and the NDP would probably win the election after that.
From: sobolev spaces :-) | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged

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