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Author Topic: Happy Birthday, Karl Marx!
skdadl
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posted 05 May 2005 10:54 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Karl Heinrich Marx was born into a comfortable middle-class home in Trier on the river Moselle in Germany on May 5, 1818. He came from a long line of rabbis on both sides of his family and his father, a man who knew Voltaire and Lessing by heart, had agreed to baptism as a Protestant so that he would not lose his job as one of the most respected lawyers in Trier.

He would be 187 today.

It may be the memorizing of Voltaire and Lessing that led the family slightly astray. I would have advised Diderot and Schiller instead, just a touch less dry.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 05 May 2005 11:27 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
they've got a historic house in trier dedicated to marx.


From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 May 2005 12:00 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Earlier this morning, I sent Marxtag greetings to two friends in Germany. I guess it is still a bit early to raise a glass of Sekt (hic!)

5. Mai: Geburtstag von Karl Marx

Vor 185 Jahren, am 5. Mai 1818,wurde Karl Marx geboren.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 May 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Not a lively Marxist crowd here this evening, is it?

So, ok: Das Kapital is boring. I mean, I found it boring, the early bits that I read. That's not to say that it isn't important -- just, y'know, like most economics textbooks, deeply boring.

All the same, The Communist Manifesto is a gem of rhetoric, one of the great achievements of Western literature (probably partly because Karl was lifting a certain amount from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, but hey, allusions are all part of the literary game, yes?).

Och, Karl. You have left us with so many problems. But you had your eyes on the prize, and for that, some of us are still grateful.

Here's to human equality. Liberty, equality, fraternity. One day.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 05 May 2005 05:50 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
amusing quote: "We abandoned our manuscript to the gnawing criticism of the mice all the more willingly as we (Karl and comrade Fred Engels)had achieved our main goal - self-clarification."

Why is it funny? Because the manuscript of The German Ideology showed signs of having been nibbled on by small rodents. I love that. The gnawing criticism of the mice.


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beibhnn
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posted 05 May 2005 06:54 PM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
When my parents were on their honeymoon in London, they visited all the Marx related sites they could find. There are pictures of each of them posing in Highgate at his grave, and I think a picture of my mother sitting in the chair he normally sat at every day in the British Museum. Young, idealistic and madly in love with each other and Marx? Perhaps. But we did the same tour many years later on our first family visit to the UK after my parents ideology had had a chance to "mature". The big disappointment was that the chair was no longer available for seating. I remember this being quite crushing as we were told that would be our big treat for the day.

Yes, my sister and I are members of the brainwashed children of socialist parents. Happy birthday Karl. Thanks for the years of bedtime stories and dinner discussion.


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lagatta
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posted 05 May 2005 07:30 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
By the way, tomorrow is Freud's birthday. Next year is the 150th, and the Viennese are organising a huge party in Sigmund's honour. Of course the Viennese would organise a huge party on just about any pretext .
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
sub lite
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posted 05 May 2005 11:23 PM      Profile for sub lite   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Wow, I had forgotten what exalted company I shared my birthday with.

Cheers, Karl, wherever you may be.


From: Australia via the Canadian Wet Coast | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Grady Wilson
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posted 06 May 2005 03:00 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
In honour of Karl Marx's birthday, let us take a moment to ponder his glorious legacy, which includes, but is not limited to:
[LIST]
  • the KGB
  • NKVD
  • the Cheka
  • GRU
  • the Volkspolizei
  • the Stasi
  • Stalin
  • Lenin
  • Kim Il Sung
  • Kim Jong Il
  • Pol Pot
  • The Khmer Rouge
  • Mao
  • Nicolae Ceausescu
  • Erich Honecker
  • the Berlin Wall
  • Gulags
  • Lau Gai camps
  • Fidel Castro[
  • ... and a supporting cast of about 100 million dead people

    And this place.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
  • Fidel
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    posted 06 May 2005 04:51 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    The Khmer Rouge were aided and abetted by the CIA. And Fidel says for Grady to get stuffed.
    From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 06 May 2005 07:09 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Back to Marx - has everyone hoisted a glass of Sekt or a beer? (We need some Rhenish drinking songs...) Here is a long excerpt on Marx's boyhood and youth from Francis Wheen's biography: http://www.wwnorton.com/catalog/spring01/karlmarxex.htm
    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 06 May 2005 09:24 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    Back to Marx - has everyone hoisted a glass of Sekt or a beer? (We need some Rhenish drinking songs...)


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    skdadl
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    posted 06 May 2005 09:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    I think that Grady Wilson is trying to tell us that he has an ahistorical view of history. Certainly of biography.

    (And a small note: I thought that the Volkspolizei were Hitler's?)


    From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    skdadl
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    posted 06 May 2005 09:39 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Oh, and happy birthday, sub lite.
    From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 06 May 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Yeah, will he be accusing Jesus Christ of the Inquisition, religious wars, Crusades with their massacres and pillage, and various persecutions of heretics, Jews, witches and cats?

    Though not to worry - such trolls never last long on the board.

    It always amuses me no end when some yahoo insinuates that I'm a fan of Stalinism.

    [ 06 May 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    skdadl
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    posted 06 May 2005 11:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Those photographs are very moving and chilling, of course, and deserve a memorial of their own.

    I believe that those are photos of Cambodian prisoners of the Khmer Rouge torturers. For some reason, the sadistic murderers carefully took photos of each person they were about to destroy horribly. I know that there are walls and walls of them in the central prison/torture centre the KR ran.

    Like Rwanda, Cambodia is almost beyond imagining. What happened there stops the mind.


    From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 06 May 2005 11:22 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

    [ 06 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 06 May 2005 11:27 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Yes, there is a very similar series of photos of prisoners in the Gulag about to be shot in the days of the Great Purges. Indeed, we could well start up a 30th anniversary memorial thread to the victims of the Khmers Rouges very soon, alas. The problem will be how to keep it from being infested with trolls.

    I recall seeing something just as affecting in the small cluster of southeast Asian shops near me, on St-Denis just south of Jean-Talon: a couple of photos of young women, aged somewhere between 18 -23 or so, "missing since 1975" in Cambodia, that a desperate relative was seeking out. Obviously those women, who'd be my age now, were long dead, but the relative or friend must have derived some relief from the very act of seeking them out or making their long-ago disappearance public.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Fidel
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    posted 06 May 2005 06:00 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Yes, Grady's "100 million" figure was probably quoted from Stephane Courtois', Black Book of Communism. The facts in the book have been criticised for a lack of documented evidence and exaggeration on the part of Courtois. Courtois seems to side with Hitler when he states that the world would have been better off under Nazism and lowballs the number killed by Hitler over the course of only 12 years at something like 20 million. Historians say that there were between 50 and 80 million people missing in Europe and Asia at the end of WWII.

    No mention of how Mao saved a 100 million in China over 30 years, facts which are backed up by the World Bank.

    European colonialism in the Congo alone is estimated to have killed off over 10 million. If one were to do some cursory dusting of imperialist and free trading colonialist regimes throughout recent history, Capitalism/imperialism has killed far more than 100 million.


    From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 06 May 2005 07:01 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    I think the best thing to be done with trolls that spam the board and deliberately vandalise thoughtful threads - or even ones where babblers are enjoying themselves - is to complain to the moderators. I have already done so. Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

    A friend of mine is teaching in Kassel (upper Hesse) this term - he is supposedly retired from his job as research director at the French CNRS but seems to be working more than ever! Teaching courses on Walter Benjamin, on Kafka and on Marx - I sent him greetings for Marxtag yesterday and Freudtag today - it is also his birthday, and he is of Viennese descent and a Marxist of surrealist cast - and he sent me a sehr romantik photo of himself in front of a Schloss in the forested hills there.

    The old town of Kassel was utterly destroyed by British bombers in 1943, killing 10.000 civilians - according to my friend it is unclear if it was an error or a deliberate attempt to destroy morale.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    skdadl wrote:
    quote:
    I thought that the Volkspolizei were Hitler's?

    No, the VoPos were a product of the DDR regime. An easy enough mistake to make, I suppose, for a dilettante in the field of applied Marxism.

    The main task of the VoPos was to apprehend any infiltrators from their jealous western neighbour, who might manage to somehow circumvent the impenatrable "anti-fascist protection barrier". Their hope was to enjoy the much higher standard of living, political freedom, and economic prosperity available to every DDR citizen, and so envied by the West.

    The "anti-fascist protection barrier" was virtually 100% effective, as almost nobody from the West dared to sneak into the DDR. In fact, it was so effective, the guards turned around most of the machine gun turrets to face the east, so that they could enjoy some extra sun in the morning. Yet another testament to the superior socialist working conditions of the DDR!


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 05:43 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Yeah, I think we got that you hate Commies. What might be interesting for everyone is if you detailed exactly how you hate Commies. Is it how they look? How they dress? What they eat? Is it that Commies hate America and therefore hate freedom?

    [ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 06:00 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta wrote:
    quote:
    Yeah, will he be accusing Jesus Christ of the Inquisition, religious wars, Crusades with their massacres and pillage, and various persecutions of heretics, Jews, witches and cats?

    A rather desperate analogy, don't you think? Aside from Christianity and Marxism both being types of religions, your analogy fails mainly on the basis that every manifestation of the Christian religion has not resulted in Inquisitions, etc.

    By comparison, I challenge you to present us with one single instance where a real-world manifestation of Marxist political philosophy hasn't given rise to massive repression and murder. Take all the time you want.

    However, I do agree with you that communism looks wonderful -- on paper, at least.

    quote:
    Though not to worry - such trolls never last long on the board.

    My, how ominous -- yet at the same time, essentially Marxist. I'll be one of the first up against the wall, eh? But what is it I've said which has you so worried? If Marxist theory is so wonderful, shouldn't the facts speak for themselves? Why do you find it necessary to make such veiled threats?

    quote:
    It always amuses me no end when some yahoo insinuates that I'm a fan of Stalinism.

    While I don't deny being a "yahoo", I vigorously deny insinuating that you are "a fan of Stalinism".

    You've managed to do that all by yourself.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 06:41 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Does anyone else ever wish their inchoate anger could be as focussed and scathing as Grady's? Or do you have to be an American to be that obnoxious?
    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
    rabble-rouser
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    posted 07 May 2005 06:47 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Palatinate Wine Sauerkraut with Grilled Sausages or Pfaelzer Weinkraut

    This sort of dish can be found with variations throughout the Rhineland; and on the Alsace side as well.

    In many Germans' minds, this traditional savoury pie is inseparable from the fall grape harvest. In the earliest part of the winemaking process, the juices from crushed grapes are separated off and allowed to begin fermentation. The resulting effervescent liquid has a pleasant fruit taste that changes from day to day as it ages, though it is most often compared to cider or pear juice. At harvest festivals, stalls feature glasses of this fresh wine mixture, called "Federweisser", paired with a warm slice of onion pie. The pie's popularity has led neighbourhood bakeries to offer slices as well, and this treat is a popular snack with students.

    (lagatta notes that vegetarians and non-pork eaters can simply omit the bacon; it is utterly authentic - there was a large Jewish community in the Rhineland).

    8 servings

    Ingredients:

    1 package active dry yeast
    1 teaspoon sugar
    1 1/2 teaspoons salt
    3 cups flour
    1 tablespoon shortening
    1 cup warm water
    6 slices bacon, cut-up
    2 medium onions, sliced
    1/4 teaspoon cumin
    1/2 teaspoon salt
    pepper
    1 egg yolk
    1 cup sour cream
    Directions:

    Mix together yeast, sugar, l teaspoon salt, and 1/2 cup flour. Blend in shortening and warm water. Beat for 2 minutes. Add enough flour to make a soft dough (between 2-3 cups). Knead dough until smooth and elastic (this should take about 5 minutes). Place dough in a lightly greased bowl. Cover and let dough rise in a warm place for 30 minutes.

    Meanwhile, fry bacon until crisp. Remove from pan and drain on absorbent paper. Add onions to bacon drippings in pan; cook slowly over moderate heat until softened, do not let not brown.

    Pat dough onto a lightly greased 12-inch baking sheet. Press up edges to make a slight rim. Sprinkle onion, bacon, cumin, remaining 1/2 teaspoon salt, and pepper over dough. Bake at 400° for 20 minutes.

    Meanwhile, blend egg yolk and sour cream. Pour over partially baked pie. Return pie to oven and bake until golden brown, about 10 minutes. Serve warm.

    Guten Appetit!

    ---

    lagatta is
    very amused as being called a Stalinist, as are all her friends. lagatta once broke up with a (new) boyfriend because he thought the Khmers Rouges were unfairly maligned.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta wrote:
    quote:
    I think the best thing to be done with trolls that spam the board and deliberately vandalise thoughtful threads - or even ones where babblers are enjoying themselves - is to complain to the moderators.

    I'm deeply sorry that I have interfered with you enjoying yourself. However, I see nothing "thoughtful" about this thread. On the contrary, I see people deliberately evading and ignoring the fact that in every single case where it has been applied, Marxist theory has had horrific and unspeakable consequences.

    By the same token, would you sit idly by while people raise giddy toasts to the author of Mein Kampf, while studiously ignoring the existance of gas chambers and concentration camps? By all accounts, Hitler was a very gracious host who loved children and animals -- a vegetarian, even. Why trouble ourselves with the inevitable consequences of his theories? How rude to even mention it! After all, we're trying to enjoy ourselves. Why let some "troll" spoil our fun?!

    quote:
    Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

    Rather difficult to do, when you are working so feverishly to have me banned, isn't it? But then, you're not really interested in any sort of interaction or dialogue, unless it is of the back-slapping, mutually congratulatory variety, are you?

    I wish I could join in your fun and enjoyable admiration of Herr Marx, but for some reason I can't. I am lucky enough to have never suffered under Marxism directly, but as a first-generation Canadian, I can't say the same for memebers of my family. I have aunts, uncles and cousins who have experienced life in the DDR, and know what it's like to be a "Young Pioneer"; what it's like to deal with the VoPos and the Stasi. I have other family members who have spent a decade in Soviet P.O.W. camps, doing forced labour, and a few who never survived the experience.

    Over the years I have also gotten to know fellow students and work colleagues, and made some good friends who have variously managed to escape Marxist regimes such as Poland, the USSR, Nicaragua, Vietnam, China, Romania, Czechoslovakia, and even Cambodia. Having heard some of their horrific experiences, and then seeing dilettantes like you -- who will never suffer the consequences -- toasting Karl Marx is a nauseating affront.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 06:59 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    skdadl wrote:
    quote:
    Like Rwanda, Cambodia is almost beyond imagining. What happened there stops the mind.

    Actually, I was hoping those photographs would have the opposite effect.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:05 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta writes:

    quote:
    Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

    ... later on, lagatta writes:

    quote:
    Palatinate Wine Sauerkraut with Grilled Sausages or Pfaelzer Weinkraut

    Uh, riiiight ...


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:08 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta wrote:
    quote:
    lagatta once broke up with a (new) boyfriend because he thought the Khmers Rouges were unfairly maligned.

    You dated Noam Chomsky??!


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Here is another lovely site with recipes specific to the Moselle region. It is all in German though. http://www.mosel.de/pages2/0305_lukullisch.jsp?dom=de

    Alas there is no recipe for Trollbraten. The roast of troll is a rare but lovely thing that seems to crop up at repeated intervals and is particularly common just prior to Federal elections. The origin of the creature is somewhere over in the dark side, in the so-called "Free" Dominion.

    Hinterland and skdadl, pray tell, what is the appropriate wine to serve with Troll? And what should I prepare as a salad, and if possible, a dessert?


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Hinterland wrote:

    quote:
    Does anyone else ever wish their inchoate anger could be as focussed and scathing as Grady's?

    How can my anger be both "inchoate", yet at the same time "focussed"? How does that work?

    quote:
    Or do you have to be an American to be that obnoxious?

    Yes, well, speaking of obnoxious ...


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
    rabble-rouser
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:18 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    Palatinate Wine Sauerkraut with Grilled Sausages or Pfaelzer Weinkraut

    Lecker!...actually, not really. I don't like German food. Here's my recipe for une bonne soupe aux pois.

    One big ham hock (or two small ones)...not to be confused with pork hocks. It has to be a smoked hock.
    1 kg of yellow peas, soaked overnight and drained
    5 cloves of garlic, finely chopped
    4 onions, chopped
    500g carrots, julienned
    4 bay leaves
    small bunch of thyme, tied up with thread
    Dill
    Worcestershire and Dijon Mustard (a tbs or so of each)
    2-3 liters of quality chicken stock

    Sautée garlic, dill in butter.
    Add oninons.
    Cook oninons until juices flow and the onions start to become clear.
    Add mustard, Worcestershire
    Add stock and bring to a boil
    Add peas
    Add thyme and bay leaves.
    Add ham hock(s) and enough water to cover.
    Bring to a boil, then reduce to simmer.
    Cook for one hour or so.
    Remove hock, and separate meat from skin, bones, fat, etc.
    Chop meat from hock and return to pot
    Bring to boil and reduce to simmer for about 2 hours (until peas become a paste)
    Add carrots, and cook until tender (about 20 minutes)
    Remove thyme bunch and bay leaves, and serve.

    [ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:21 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    ... aaaaand, right on cue, Hinterland.
    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:26 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    À vrai dire, Hinterland, mon copain en Allemagne est toujours chez son meilleur ami dans son patelin, un réfugié iranien. Et de toute manière, mon copain est d'origine juive hongroise. Donc une bonne recette de parpikash?

    Mais la soupe au pois est aussi lourde que la bouffe allemande, non?

    J'en ai marre de ce crisse de réac. J'espère que tu as écrit à Audra? Empêcher les babbleurs et babbleuses de jaser est tout simplement ... stalinien.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:30 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    Hinterland and skdadl, pray tell, what is the appropriate wine to serve with Troll? And what should I prepare as a salad, and if possible, a dessert?

    For wine, Ripple comes to mind, for some reason. As for salad, I find the bitterness of endive to be appropriate with Troll. To cleanse the palate though, a life-affirming dessert of fresh wild berries is what the savvy hostess is serving this season.

    ...it's a good thing.


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Stargazer
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    Babbler # 6061

    posted 07 May 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 

    From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:33 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    Mais la soupe au pois est aussi lourde que la bouffe allemande, non?

    It's not the heaviness of German food that puts me off. It's the lack of garlic and other spices.


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    I have never tasted that vintage - Ripple, you say? In German, is it Rippel? And I believe that in Italian it is Ripello, or is it Ripellino?

    Have you done a tour of the Ripple Valley? I've heard that its hinterland is very charming. Especially the world-famous Rippelwald, renowned for its open-air concerts and charming inns where one can partake of the new Ripple and Rippel-Valley (Rippelthal) dishes with their bright fluo colours.

    Oh yes, some wild raspberries are very much in order, but they only ripen a bit later in the season. We'll have to make do with imported American onese for the time being, though they do try to masquerade as the authentic homegrown berry. A warning: they are full of toxic fertilisers and pesticides. It is said that the USian raspberry producers shovel it on by the carload. Puir wee berries!


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    How can my anger be both "inchoate", yet at the same time "focussed"? How does that work?

    Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious.

    Any further questions?


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Oh Hinterland, I wholeheartedly agree about the garlic! But my friend's mum was Hungarian, after all, and loved garlic and other spices. She did have to tone it down in their new home though - it was bad enough being DPs in the postwar years without the none-too-reconverted ex-fascist neighbours complaining about their garlic and paprika!

    Mein Schatz is very fond of my cooking


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Américain Égalitaire
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    posted 07 May 2005 08:04 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Fine, Lagatta, out go all my rasperries. Well this "obnoxious" USian still has South American strawberries.

    As for ripple. well we used to always enjoy Annie Green Springs at football games but it really doesn't qualify as true ripple.

    How about this:


    From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Stargazer
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    posted 07 May 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    AE you are obnoxious? You are super sweet. What type of beer is that in the picture and where is that beer sold. I am assuming it is beer?
    From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Nay! I want Rosa Luxemburg!

    The Che was an Argie, that country produces fine red wines.

    EA, you aren't an "obnoxious" American - is it not clear that we were referring to large-scale agribusiness, with its heavy doses of chemical fertiliser?


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 08:42 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta once wrote:

    quote:
    Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

    I see you're doing a pretty good job, so far.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    AppleSeed
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    posted 07 May 2005 08:46 PM      Profile for AppleSeed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Geez, what's comrade Brezhnev doing there?
    His plonk didn't go over big in Afghanistan.

    And anchoring the other end is comrade Stalin. I've heard rumors that warfarin was the mixer for his last bottle of vodka.


    From: In Dreams | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
    'lance
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    posted 07 May 2005 09:01 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    I think that Grady Wilson is trying to tell us that he has an ahistorical view of history. Certainly of biography.

    But don't you realize, skdadl -- some thoughts and ideas are so deeply dangerous, so unspeakably evil, that they must remain, indeed, unspoken, and even unthought? That they are as powerful as incantations and can cause -- all by themselves -- momentous and terrible consequences generations after their proponents have died, in countries and circumstances of which they knew nothing? Why, it's positively sinister!

    (And "sinister," as we know, derives from the ancient Mesopotamian for "left"! Coincidence? I think not!)


    From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Américain Égalitaire
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    posted 07 May 2005 09:13 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Oh, I knew you didn't mean me. I was just funnin' back atcha. But I have no idea what's in the bottles. I assumed it was wine. But I don't read Cyrillic script.
    From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 07 May 2005 10:40 PM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Hinterland writes:

    quote:
    Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious.

    Ah, now I think I get it. Thank you.

    quote:
    Any further questions?

    Well, yes. Would it count if I had written something like this?:

    quote:
    Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious. Any further questions?

    Thanks for straightening me out.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 10:45 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    You're entirely welcome. And, as a side note, when I've become obnoxious on this forum, I do tend to apologise (...not always, but often.)
    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Boom Boom
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    posted 07 May 2005 10:50 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Hinterland, one of the things I've learned on these lists, in order to cut down on obnoxiousness, is to think twice before sending a post. Many has been the time when I decided not to send a post that, on reflection, would have contributed little to the discussion, or just pissed someone off without making any kind of a point. For a while I had a piece of yellow sticky paper on my monitor that read "think twice before hitting "send". Worked for me.
    From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 07 May 2005 10:57 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    That is wise, Boom Boom. Usually I've become pretty good at ignoring trolls but this one deliberately vandalised a thread that was going well and attracting both serious and fun contributions. At a certain point it is like having something you've written or painted vandalised. Downright Stalinist, if I dare say so .

    I've learnt better than to respond to them - there is no point whatsoever. But if nobody posts anything, that kills the thread. I really enjoyed skdadl's original inspiration and the posts responding to it and adding things.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    Hinterland
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    posted 07 May 2005 11:06 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    For a while I had a piece of yellow sticky paper on my monitor that read "think twice before hitting "send". Worked for me.

    My Post-It said "Do you really want to make a fool of yourself?"

    Some things I just can't ignore. I have an instinct for hatefulness, which I can't dismiss. But, impulse-control is a useful skill.


    From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
    beluga2
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    posted 07 May 2005 11:13 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    lagatta wrote:
    quote:lagatta once broke up with a (new) boyfriend because he thought the Khmers Rouges were unfairly maligned.

    You dated Noam Chomsky??!


    I thought this was very clever. By blatantly adopting the intellectual techniques of Stalinism -- repeating a scurrilous and baseless lie against a dissident who is not present to defend himself -- Grady was actually making an ironic condemnation of Stalinism. Brilliant.


    From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 08 May 2005 02:13 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    'lance wrote:

    quote:
    But don't you realize, skdadl -- some thoughts and ideas are so deeply dangerous, so unspeakably evil, that they must remain, indeed, unspoken, and even unthought?

    I certainly don't advocate that at all. On the contrary, a review of this thread will show you that this is, in fact, what seems to be the prevailing attitude toward the issues which I have raised. I would be more than happy to engage in discussion. Instead, what I've gotten so far are personal attacks, veiled threats, and idiotic recipes -- while, at the same time, being hypocritically accused of "vandalising" this thread.

    quote:
    That they are as powerful as incantations and can cause -- all by themselves -- momentous and terrible consequences generations after their proponents have died, in countries and circumstances of which they knew nothing?

    I suppose if you insist on being disingenuous, then of course Marx's theories in and of themselves were perfectly harmless. Obviously, Marx couldn't have known with any certainty the real-world implications of his philosophy. Marx did not have the benefit of hind-sight.

    You and the other participants in this thread do not have this excuse.

    Now in the Twenty-first Century, since the Stasi and KGB vaults have been opened, to happily celebrate Marx's theories, while evading any mention of their repeated and inevitable outcome, is both intellectually dishonest and highly odious.


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
    rabble-rouser
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    posted 08 May 2005 02:35 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    lagatta wrote:

    quote:
    Usually I've become pretty good at ignoring trolls but this one deliberately vandalised a thread that was going well and attracting both serious and fun contributions.

    In what way was this thread "going well"? I assume you mean you were successful in avoiding certain inconvenient historical facts, until I weighed in. I sincerely apologise for having taken all the fun out of Marxism.

    quote:
    At a certain point it is like having something you've written or painted vandalised.

    In this case, you've been writing bad science fiction. When I'm not busy letting the air out of your tires, I like to amuse myself by burning down orphanages.

    quote:
    Downright Stalinist, if I dare say so

    Really? I'm not the one offering authoritarian responses to anyone who happens to disagree with me (ie., some of your previous posts in this thread). You obviously need to review what the definition of "Stalinism" is.

    quote:
    I've learnt better than to respond to them - there is no point whatsoever.

    No doubt, particularly if your goal is to remain obliviously wrapped in your romantic fantasies about Marxism. I just happen to think that sort of naive silliness needs a counter-balance. No doubt you'd be happier without that.

    [ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    Grady Wilson
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    posted 08 May 2005 02:55 AM      Profile for Grady Wilson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    beluga2 wrote:

    quote:
    I thought this was very clever.

    Oh yes, I'm extremely crafty, and full of guile. Look up "mendacity" in the encyclopedia, and you'll see my picture.

    quote:
    By blatantly adopting the intellectual techniques of Stalinism -- repeating a scurrilous and baseless lie against a dissident who is not present to defend himself -- Grady was actually making an ironic condemnation of Stalinism. Brilliant.

    Aside from being yet another person on this thread who seems to have a very shakey understanding of what constitutes "Stalinism", you also seem to be blissfully unaware that Chomsky's apologetics on behalf of Brother #1 are a matter of public record, and have been for quite a long time.

    "...executions have numbered at most in the thousands; that these were localized in areas of limited Khmer Rouge influence and unusual peasant discontent, where brutal revenge killings were aggravated by the threat of starvation resulting from the American destruction and killing." -- Distortions at Fourth Hand, Noam Chomsky & Edward S. Herman,The Nation, June 6, 1977

    See? They merely bumped off a few thousand trouble-making peasants who probably deserved it, and in any case -- it was all America's fault!

    "The "slaughter" by the Khmer Rouge is a Moss-New York Times creation." -- Ibid

    There are literally dozens and dozens of instances over the years, in which Chomsky makes similar looney-tunes statements. And then there are the ones in which he completely contradicts himself. But what do I know, I'm just a "Stalinist", and that's fodder for another thread.

    [ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]


    From: enjoyin' some ripple | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
    skdadl
    rabble-rouser
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    posted 08 May 2005 09:38 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Hmmmn. Repeated multiple postings. That is considered exceptionally bad netiquette, at least.

    And you express above the offence you are taking that no one has addressed the issues you raised. But you didn't raise issues. You started out posting repeated reductionist illustrations that do not raise "issues," plural: they simply express a single opinion, which goes something like this:

    quote:
    since the Stasi and KGB vaults have been opened, to happily celebrate Marx's theories, while evading any mention of their repeated and inevitable outcome, is both intellectually dishonest and highly odious.

    You think that nothing about Marx is worth discussing, because you also think that all of Marx's work "inevitably" leads to one outcome.

    You are entitled to write a couple of lines saying that. But that isn't what you did. We could tell at once that that was your opinion, but you didn't offer it articulately or honestly and wait for refutation -- you just trolled the board.

    For the record, no one agrees with your feeble, single, ahistorical opinion, but that's a side issue. Your behaviour from the outset was egregious. This thread wasn't about you and your single feeble opinion, and yet you are claiming offence? You are offended that everything isn't always about you? Seek help.

    But leave discussions of what Marx actually did to people who are interested in that topic and have something useful to say.


    From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
    Wilf Day
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    posted 08 May 2005 10:44 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    quote:
    Originally posted by Grady Wilson:
    I have aunts, uncles and cousins who have experienced life in the DDR, and know what it's like to be a "Young Pioneer"; what it's like to deal with the VoPos and the Stasi.

    Since so many of Marx's self-proclaimed admirers savagely misapplied his thought, it not easy debating what his reputation should be, and perhaps not productive either.

    I'd be much more interested in any insight as to the continuing support for the PDS in the former DDR. I realize it transformed itself from the former Communist Party, but still, many ex-Marxists who decided to become social democrats joined the social-democratic party. In the territory of the former DDR, plus West Berlin, the PDS got 15.3% of the vote in the last German federal election, and does even better in some Land elections. Have they simply become a left-democratic-socialist party, such as many European countries have? But their support in the former West Germany is still minimal, so they have obviously inherited some genuine support for the former communist party. What accounts for this? Of course we can all read discussions of this, but some first-hand or second-hand knowledge would actually be interesting.


    From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
    lagatta
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    posted 08 May 2005 11:00 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Wilf, I think that should perhaps be a separate thread, but I'll try to address it very succinctly here. Indeed the PDS is seen as a party to the left of the SPD - remember a huge number of people feel alienated by the Hartz IV plans cutting social services and labour rights and benefits. This has had a much harsher impact in the poor East than in the more prosperous West; many people from the former DDR feel that unity has not lived up to its economic promises - and remember that while unification mean more political freedoms it also meant attacks on social rights such as child care.

    The PDS is far too identified with the former DDR and Stasi oppression to take off among leftists in the former Western Germany but there are now attempts in the works to build an "electoral alternative" to the left of the SPD that will reject Schröder's current "Blairist" policies and defend workers' rights.


    From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
    N.Beltov
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    posted 08 May 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    When the Berlin Wall came down, support for many Communist Parties around the world declined. Not so for the SACP (South African Communist Party). Under the leadership of the late Joe Slovo, the SACP went from strength to strength. They have an English language site that is very much worth investigating.

    SACP - the party of Joe Slovo

    If you can get your hands on it, Slovo's article, Has Socialism Failed? (June 1990) is a very good read. And the perspective of the SACP in regard to the crisis in Zimbabwe is useful reading. The unbreakable bonds between the SACP, COSATU and the ANC made the victory over the racist Apartheid regime possible. Yes, we can and should learn from them.


    From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
    Fidel
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    posted 08 May 2005 12:04 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Grady's been reading too many history books printed in Texas. Grady, sometimes the victors of a war aren't really victorious, and so the right-wing's version of history isn't even recognized in their own country. The Khmer Rouge were still terrorizing VietNam and Cambodia upt to the late 1990's. That takes funding.

    quote:
    As a cover for its secret war against Cambodia, Washington set up the Kampuchean Emergency Group (KEG) in the US embassy in Bangkok and on the Thai-Cambodian border. KEG's job was to "monitor" the distribution of Western humanitarian supplies sent to the refugee camps in Thai land and to ensure that Khmer Rouge bases were fed. Working through "Task Force 80" of the Thai Army, which had liaison officers with the Khmer Rouge, the Americans ensured a constant flow of UN supplies. Two US relief aid workers, Linda Mason and Roger Brown, later wrote, "The US Government insisted that the Khmer Rouge be fed ... the US preferred that the Khmer Rouge operation benefit from the credibility of an internationally known relief operation."

    Uncle Sam and Pol Pot - John Pilger


    From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
    audra trower williams
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    posted 08 May 2005 01:09 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    I banned him! Thanks for all the complaints!
    From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
    nister
    rabble-rouser
    Babbler # 7709

    posted 08 May 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Rats..I wanted to take his challenge about one country that didn't rue their communist experiment. Mozambique, Grady, if you're reading. Google Samora Machel.
    From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
    Boinker
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    posted 12 May 2005 07:34 PM      Profile for Boinker   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
    Karl Marx as a person was similar in personalty to William Morris - friendly man with a sense of humour to accompany his fierce and terrible intellect.

    The chief function of Marxism seemed to be to categorize terms and fiercely defend their boundaries to the extreme end of the logic that drove him. What redeems his philosophy is that ultimately it was about class conciousness and was not so successful at a causal relationship between blind human economic behavior and history. Yet astonishingly his view that human economic behaviour was an natural phenomenon modified by human conciousness has been largely accepted today. The only difference is that the capitalist powers have appropriated the means of creating that conciousness so successfully that the conciousness Marc hoped would change the world - the recognition of our species being - has been subordinated to the parochial interests of the ruling classes.

    The class society has not been obliterated but merely made bigger and better with the rulers far up in the untouchable stratosphere with the proletariat seduced in the West with the baubles of consumerism.

    Attributing the evils of totalitarianism to Marx is just wrong. It was capitalist America that gave fascist Germany the ideas about eugenics that drobe the holocaust. It was the European powers that planned to invade the fledgling communist state and provoked the militaristic reaction that led to Stalin.

    It was the short sighted failure of the colonial powers like France and England to promote democracy in te orient that led to despots like Pol Pot, the Kymer Rouge, the Gang of Four, and the numerous other lunatics that called the big bluff of bourgoise democracy around the world.

    The irony is that if the US did not spend half a trillion dollars a year on armaments US capitalism would fail and the world would no doubt be much better off.


    From: The Junction | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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