He would be 187 today.

5. Mai: Geburtstag von Karl Marx

So, ok: Das Kapital is boring. I mean, I found it boring, the early bits that I read. That's not to say that it isn't important -- just, y'know, like most economics textbooks, deeply boring.

All the same, The Communist Manifesto is a gem of rhetoric, one of the great achievements of Western literature (probably partly because Karl was lifting a certain amount from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, but hey, allusions are all part of the literary game, yes?).

Och, Karl. You have left us with so many problems. But you had your eyes on the prize, and for that, some of us are still grateful.

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Back to Marx - has everyone hoisted a glass of Sekt or a beer? (We need some Rhenish drinking songs...)

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Though not to worry - such trolls never last long on the board.

It always amuses me no end when some yahoo insinuates that I'm a fan of Stalinism.

[ 06 May 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]

I believe that those are photos of Cambodian prisoners of the Khmer Rouge torturers. For some reason, the sadistic murderers carefully took photos of each person they were about to destroy horribly. I know that there are walls and walls of them in the central prison/torture centre the KR ran.

[ 06 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]

No mention of how Mao saved a 100 million in China over 30 years, facts which are backed up by the World Bank.

A friend of mine is teaching in Kassel (upper Hesse) this term - he is supposedly retired from his job as research director at the French CNRS but seems to be working more than ever! Teaching courses on Walter Benjamin, on Kafka and on Marx - I sent him greetings for Marxtag yesterday and Freudtag today - it is also his birthday, and he is of Viennese descent and a Marxist of surrealist cast - and he sent me a sehr romantik photo of himself in front of a Schloss in the forested hills there.

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I thought that the Volkspolizei were Hitler's?

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No, the VoPos were a product of the DDR regime. An easy enough mistake to make, I suppose, for a dilettante in the field of applied Marxism.

The main task of the VoPos was to apprehend any infiltrators from their jealous western neighbour, who might manage to somehow circumvent the impenatrable "anti-fascist protection barrier". Their hope was to enjoy the much higher standard of living, political freedom, and economic prosperity available to every DDR citizen, and so envied by the West.

[ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

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Yeah, will he be accusing Jesus Christ of the Inquisition, religious wars, Crusades with their massacres and pillage, and various persecutions of heretics, Jews, witches and cats?

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A rather desperate analogy, don't you think? Aside from Christianity and Marxism both being types of religions, your analogy fails mainly on the basis that every manifestation of the Christian religion has not resulted in Inquisitions, etc.

By comparison, I challenge you to present us with one single instance where a real-world manifestation of Marxist political philosophy hasn't given rise to massive repression and murder. Take all the time you want.

However, I do agree with you that communism looks wonderful -- on paper, at least.

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Though not to worry - such trolls never last long on the board.

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My, how ominous -- yet at the same time, essentially Marxist. I'll be one of the first up against the wall, eh? But what is it I've said which has you so worried? If Marxist theory is so wonderful, shouldn't the facts speak for themselves? Why do you find it necessary to make such veiled threats?

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It always amuses me no end when some yahoo insinuates that I'm a fan of Stalinism.

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While I don't deny being a "yahoo", I vigorously deny insinuating that you are "a fan of Stalinism".

This sort of dish can be found with variations throughout the Rhineland; and on the Alsace side as well.

In many Germans' minds, this traditional savoury pie is inseparable from the fall grape harvest. In the earliest part of the winemaking process, the juices from crushed grapes are separated off and allowed to begin fermentation. The resulting effervescent liquid has a pleasant fruit taste that changes from day to day as it ages, though it is most often compared to cider or pear juice. At harvest festivals, stalls feature glasses of this fresh wine mixture, called "Federweisser", paired with a warm slice of onion pie. The pie's popularity has led neighbourhood bakeries to offer slices as well, and this treat is a popular snack with students.

(lagatta notes that vegetarians and non-pork eaters can simply omit the bacon; it is utterly authentic - there was a large Jewish community in the Rhineland).

8 servings

Ingredients:

1 package active dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
3 cups flour
1 tablespoon shortening
1 cup warm water
6 slices bacon, cut-up
2 medium onions, sliced
1/4 teaspoon cumin
1/2 teaspoon salt
pepper
1 egg yolk
1 cup sour cream
Directions:

Mix together yeast, sugar, l teaspoon salt, and 1/2 cup flour. Blend in shortening and warm water. Beat for 2 minutes. Add enough flour to make a soft dough (between 2-3 cups). Knead dough until smooth and elastic (this should take about 5 minutes). Place dough in a lightly greased bowl. Cover and let dough rise in a warm place for 30 minutes.

Meanwhile, fry bacon until crisp. Remove from pan and drain on absorbent paper. Add onions to bacon drippings in pan; cook slowly over moderate heat until softened, do not let not brown.

Pat dough onto a lightly greased 12-inch baking sheet. Press up edges to make a slight rim. Sprinkle onion, bacon, cumin, remaining 1/2 teaspoon salt, and pepper over dough. Bake at 400° for 20 minutes.

Meanwhile, blend egg yolk and sour cream. Pour over partially baked pie. Return pie to oven and bake until golden brown, about 10 minutes. Serve warm.

Guten Appetit!

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I think the best thing to be done with trolls that spam the board and deliberately vandalise thoughtful threads - or even ones where babblers are enjoying themselves - is to complain to the moderators.

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I'm deeply sorry that I have interfered with you enjoying yourself. However, I see nothing "thoughtful" about this thread. On the contrary, I see people deliberately evading and ignoring the fact that in every single case where it has been applied, Marxist theory has had horrific and unspeakable consequences.

By the same token, would you sit idly by while people raise giddy toasts to the author of Mein Kampf, while studiously ignoring the existance of gas chambers and concentration camps? By all accounts, Hitler was a very gracious host who loved children and animals -- a vegetarian, even. Why trouble ourselves with the inevitable consequences of his theories? How rude to even mention it! After all, we're trying to enjoy ourselves. Why let some "troll" spoil our fun?!

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Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

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Rather difficult to do, when you are working so feverishly to have me banned, isn't it? But then, you're not really interested in any sort of interaction or dialogue, unless it is of the back-slapping, mutually congratulatory variety, are you?

I wish I could join in your fun and enjoyable admiration of Herr Marx, but for some reason I can't. I am lucky enough to have never suffered under Marxism directly, but as a first-generation Canadian, I can't say the same for memebers of my family. I have aunts, uncles and cousins who have experienced life in the DDR, and know what it's like to be a "Young Pioneer"; what it's like to deal with the VoPos and the Stasi. I have other family members who have spent a decade in Soviet P.O.W. camps, doing forced labour, and a few who never survived the experience.

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Like Rwanda, Cambodia is almost beyond imagining. What happened there stops the mind.

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Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

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... later on, lagatta writes:

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Palatinate Wine Sauerkraut with Grilled Sausages or Pfaelzer Weinkraut

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lagatta once broke up with a (new) boyfriend because he thought the Khmers Rouges were unfairly maligned.

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Alas there is no recipe for Trollbraten. The roast of troll is a rare but lovely thing that seems to crop up at repeated intervals and is particularly common just prior to Federal elections. The origin of the creature is somewhere over in the dark side, in the so-called "Free" Dominion.

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Does anyone else ever wish their inchoate anger could be as focussed and scathing as Grady's?

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How can my anger be both "inchoate", yet at the same time "focussed"? How does that work?

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Or do you have to be an American to be that obnoxious?

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Palatinate Wine Sauerkraut with Grilled Sausages or Pfaelzer Weinkraut

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Lecker!...actually, not really. I don't like German food. Here's my recipe for une bonne soupe aux pois.

One big ham hock (or two small ones)...not to be confused with pork hocks. It has to be a smoked hock.
1 kg of yellow peas, soaked overnight and drained
5 cloves of garlic, finely chopped
4 onions, chopped
500g carrots, julienned
4 bay leaves
small bunch of thyme, tied up with thread
Dill
Worcestershire and Dijon Mustard (a tbs or so of each)
2-3 liters of quality chicken stock

Sautée garlic, dill in butter.
Add oninons.
Cook oninons until juices flow and the onions start to become clear.
Add mustard, Worcestershire
Add stock and bring to a boil
Add peas
Add thyme and bay leaves.
Add ham hock(s) and enough water to cover.
Bring to a boil, then reduce to simmer.
Cook for one hour or so.
Remove hock, and separate meat from skin, bones, fat, etc.
Chop meat from hock and return to pot
Bring to boil and reduce to simmer for about 2 hours (until peas become a paste)
Add carrots, and cook until tender (about 20 minutes)
Remove thyme bunch and bay leaves, and serve.

[ 07 May 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]

Mais la soupe au pois est aussi lourde que la bouffe allemande, non?

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Hinterland and skdadl, pray tell, what is the appropriate wine to serve with Troll? And what should I prepare as a salad, and if possible, a dessert?

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For wine, Ripple comes to mind, for some reason. As for salad, I find the bitterness of endive to be appropriate with Troll. To cleanse the palate though, a life-affirming dessert of fresh wild berries is what the savvy hostess is serving this season.

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Mais la soupe au pois est aussi lourde que la bouffe allemande, non?

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Have you done a tour of the Ripple Valley? I've heard that its hinterland is very charming. Especially the world-famous Rippelwald, renowned for its open-air concerts and charming inns where one can partake of the new Ripple and Rippel-Valley (Rippelthal) dishes with their bright fluo colours.

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How can my anger be both "inchoate", yet at the same time "focussed"? How does that work?

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Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious.

As for ripple. well we used to always enjoy Annie Green Springs at football games but it really doesn't qualify as true ripple.

How about this:

The Che was an Argie, that country produces fine red wines.

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Trolls aren't even reading what we have written or cited and are not remotely interested in interreaction or dialogue.

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I think that Grady Wilson is trying to tell us that he has an ahistorical view of history. Certainly of biography.

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But don't you realize, skdadl -- some thoughts and ideas are so deeply dangerous, so unspeakably evil, that they must remain, indeed, unspoken, and even unthought? That they are as powerful as incantations and can cause -- all by themselves -- momentous and terrible consequences generations after their proponents have died, in countries and circumstances of which they knew nothing? Why, it's positively sinister!

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Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious.

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Ah, now I think I get it. Thank you.

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Any further questions?

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Well, yes. Would it count if I had written something like this?:

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Here's how it works, ya big moron. You have a huge well of inchoate anger. Rather than addressing that, you focus that anger on being snide and obnoxious. Any further questions?

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For a while I had a piece of yellow sticky paper on my monitor that read "think twice before hitting "send". Worked for me.

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My Post-It said "Do you really want to make a fool of yourself?"

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lagatta wrote:
quote:lagatta once broke up with a (new) boyfriend because he thought the Khmers Rouges were unfairly maligned.

You dated Noam Chomsky??!

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But don't you realize, skdadl -- some thoughts and ideas are so deeply dangerous, so unspeakably evil, that they must remain, indeed, unspoken, and even unthought?

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I certainly don't advocate that at all. On the contrary, a review of this thread will show you that this is, in fact, what seems to be the prevailing attitude toward the issues which I have raised. I would be more than happy to engage in discussion. Instead, what I've gotten so far are personal attacks, veiled threats, and idiotic recipes -- while, at the same time, being hypocritically accused of "vandalising" this thread.

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That they are as powerful as incantations and can cause -- all by themselves -- momentous and terrible consequences generations after their proponents have died, in countries and circumstances of which they knew nothing?

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I suppose if you insist on being disingenuous, then of course Marx's theories in and of themselves were perfectly harmless. Obviously, Marx couldn't have known with any certainty the real-world implications of his philosophy. Marx did not have the benefit of hind-sight.

You and the other participants in this thread do not have this excuse.

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Usually I've become pretty good at ignoring trolls but this one deliberately vandalised a thread that was going well and attracting both serious and fun contributions.

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In what way was this thread "going well"? I assume you mean you were successful in avoiding certain inconvenient historical facts, until I weighed in. I sincerely apologise for having taken all the fun out of Marxism.

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At a certain point it is like having something you've written or painted vandalised.

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In this case, you've been writing bad science fiction. When I'm not busy letting the air out of your tires, I like to amuse myself by burning down orphanages.

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Downright Stalinist, if I dare say so

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Really? I'm not the one offering authoritarian responses to anyone who happens to disagree with me (ie., some of your previous posts in this thread). You obviously need to review what the definition of "Stalinism" is.

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I've learnt better than to respond to them - there is no point whatsoever.

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No doubt, particularly if your goal is to remain obliviously wrapped in your romantic fantasies about Marxism. I just happen to think that sort of naive silliness needs a counter-balance. No doubt you'd be happier without that.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]

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I thought this was very clever.

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Oh yes, I'm extremely crafty, and full of guile. Look up "mendacity" in the encyclopedia, and you'll see my picture.

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By blatantly adopting the intellectual techniques of Stalinism -- repeating a scurrilous and baseless lie against a dissident who is not present to defend himself -- Grady was actually making an ironic condemnation of Stalinism. Brilliant.

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Aside from being yet another person on this thread who seems to have a very shakey understanding of what constitutes "Stalinism", you also seem to be blissfully unaware that Chomsky's apologetics on behalf of Brother #1 are a matter of public record, and have been for quite a long time.

"...executions have numbered at most in the thousands; that these were localized in areas of limited Khmer Rouge influence and unusual peasant discontent, where brutal revenge killings were aggravated by the threat of starvation resulting from the American destruction and killing." -- Distortions at Fourth Hand, Noam Chomsky & Edward S. Herman,The Nation, June 6, 1977

See? They merely bumped off a few thousand trouble-making peasants who probably deserved it, and in any case -- it was all America's fault!

"The "slaughter" by the Khmer Rouge is a Moss-New York Times creation." -- Ibid

There are literally dozens and dozens of instances over the years, in which Chomsky makes similar looney-tunes statements. And then there are the ones in which he completely contradicts himself. But what do I know, I'm just a "Stalinist", and that's fodder for another thread.

[ 08 May 2005: Message edited by: Grady Wilson ]

And you express above the offence you are taking that no one has addressed the issues you raised. But you didn't raise issues. You started out posting repeated reductionist illustrations that do not raise "issues," plural: they simply express a single opinion, which goes something like this:

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since the Stasi and KGB vaults have been opened, to happily celebrate Marx's theories, while evading any mention of their repeated and inevitable outcome, is both intellectually dishonest and highly odious.

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You think that nothing about Marx is worth discussing, because you also think that all of Marx's work "inevitably" leads to one outcome.

You are entitled to write a couple of lines saying that. But that isn't what you did. We could tell at once that that was your opinion, but you didn't offer it articulately or honestly and wait for refutation -- you just trolled the board.

For the record, no one agrees with your feeble, single, ahistorical opinion, but that's a side issue. Your behaviour from the outset was egregious. This thread wasn't about you and your single feeble opinion, and yet you are claiming offence? You are offended that everything isn't always about you? Seek help.

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Originally posted by Grady Wilson:
I have aunts, uncles and cousins who have experienced life in the DDR, and know what it's like to be a "Young Pioneer"; what it's like to deal with the VoPos and the Stasi.

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Since so many of Marx's self-proclaimed admirers savagely misapplied his thought, it not easy debating what his reputation should be, and perhaps not productive either.

SACP - the party of Joe Slovo

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As a cover for its secret war against Cambodia, Washington set up the Kampuchean Emergency Group (KEG) in the US embassy in Bangkok and on the Thai-Cambodian border. KEG's job was to "monitor" the distribution of Western humanitarian supplies sent to the refugee camps in Thai land and to ensure that Khmer Rouge bases were fed. Working through "Task Force 80" of the Thai Army, which had liaison officers with the Khmer Rouge, the Americans ensured a constant flow of UN supplies. Two US relief aid workers, Linda Mason and Roger Brown, later wrote, "The US Government insisted that the Khmer Rouge be fed ... the US preferred that the Khmer Rouge operation benefit from the credibility of an internationally known relief operation."

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The chief function of Marxism seemed to be to categorize terms and fiercely defend their boundaries to the extreme end of the logic that drove him. What redeems his philosophy is that ultimately it was about class conciousness and was not so successful at a causal relationship between blind human economic behavior and history. Yet astonishingly his view that human economic behaviour was an natural phenomenon modified by human conciousness has been largely accepted today. The only difference is that the capitalist powers have appropriated the means of creating that conciousness so successfully that the conciousness Marc hoped would change the world - the recognition of our species being - has been subordinated to the parochial interests of the ruling classes.

The class society has not been obliterated but merely made bigger and better with the rulers far up in the untouchable stratosphere with the proletariat seduced in the West with the baubles of consumerism.

Attributing the evils of totalitarianism to Marx is just wrong. It was capitalist America that gave fascist Germany the ideas about eugenics that drobe the holocaust. It was the European powers that planned to invade the fledgling communist state and provoked the militaristic reaction that led to Stalin.

It was the short sighted failure of the colonial powers like France and England to promote democracy in te orient that led to despots like Pol Pot, the Kymer Rouge, the Gang of Four, and the numerous other lunatics that called the big bluff of bourgoise democracy around the world.