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Author Topic: Ripped - Hiphop 101
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 06 June 2006 12:25 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please welcome Carly Burns and Patrick Ryan and their new podcast, Ripped - Hiphop 101.

Drop by, give it a listen and then pop back here with any comments or questions.

This topic seems to be devoted to the appropriateness of white podcasters doing a hiphop show.

If you'd like to discuss other aspects of the show please drop by here.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
tim posgate
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12726

posted 09 June 2006 08:43 PM      Profile for tim posgate   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi guys,

I just listened to Ripped and enjoyed it. It made me feel more comfortable about getting my show up on Rabble which is kind of about Jazz and musicians and more.

Looking forward to the next episode.
tim


From: toronto | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 10 June 2006 09:42 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you very much for listening. I am glad that we could help with your show. Let me know when you get it all finished and we will do a shout out for you. I appreciate it alot that you replied and I hope you enjoy our next show. It can only get better.

Best of luck,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 June 2006 08:07 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In this thread there are a couple of reactions to the podcast. Just wanted to link to them so that the discussion could continue here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 11 June 2006 12:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frpm the other thread: Rabble Rips Hip Hop

quote:

Cueball Wrote:

What would Chuck D or Spike Lee think when confronted with two white kids who look like potential candidates for the next "Survivor" fashion show review Hip Hop?
Ripped

One really has to wonder about Rabble's commitment to affiramtive action, or building left linkages with minority communities, when it can't seem to even find someone from the media savvy black community to give us the inside scoop on themselves.



Periyar Replied


quote:
No kidding- I saw that creepy thread and I am a fan of hip hop, particularly the politicized kind which means that it'll address race and class from a Black perspective and thought oh good- finally some acknowledgement of music that's not white- but then quickly figured out that it's going to be white dominated anyhow so didn't bother checking it out.
But why stop there- there are still other Black orginated musical genres for white folks to educate us about like blues and jazz.


[ 11 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 12 June 2006 08:55 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Oh I dunno. We have middle class white, Canadian posters here regularly informing us of the Palestinian point of view (or to look at it another way, 'appropriating Palestinian voices'). So why can't a white kid write about hip hop?
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 09:10 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll let Carly and Pat speak for themselves, which they are more than capable of doing.

But, from the rpn's point of view, a few points:

1) Lots of volunteer members of the rpn team, including those in the black community, have really worked at reaching out to diverse communities to get their voices on the rpn. In fact, that's what Charlotte, I and others spend a good deal of our voluntary time on. Tori, Charlotte and I just gave a free podcasting seminar at Harbourfront for just that reason.

2) We have continually made it clear (in Podcast DIY and elsewhere), that we are open to all sorts of voices joining the rpn (which is free for podcasters btw).

3) If you know any black hiphop artists who'd like do a podcast, please let them and us know about each other and we'll make it happen.

4) If you're interested in volunteering for the rpn, happy to have you.

5) Personally, I have little time for "voice appropriation" discussions. We're very open to giving everyone tools to discuss their communities and others.

6) I think Pat and Carly have produced an excellent podcast that should showcase hiphop coming out of all sorts of ethnic communities. The popularity of hiphop has spread it beyond the black community and they plan on celebrating and honouring that reality. I don't care what colour they are, frankly.

Wayne MacPhail
rpn executive producer

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 12 June 2006 09:11 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
worker_drone: We have middle class white, Canadian posters here regularly informing us of the Palestinian point of view (or to look at it another way, 'appropriating Palestinian voices'). So why can't a white kid write about hip hop?

Expressions of solidarity with the just struggle of the Palestinians isn't "appropriation" but taking land by force and bulldozing the homes of your victims sure as hell is. What a shitty example.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 09:17 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Let's keep the topic focussed on ripped please. Though, point taken. :-)
From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 09:19 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, please try to discuss this issue without making personal remarks about the hosts. You raise an important point and it would be best for the discussion if folks took you serioiusly without being distracted by ad hominem comments.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Roy_Whyte
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12570

posted 12 June 2006 12:26 PM      Profile for Roy_Whyte   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not a fan of 'hip hop' myself, but not all taking part in that music genre now are black. So let's not generalize. I have friends in the industry in Vancouver and they are of Italian, German, Chinese and other ethnic backgrounds. That is the strength of hip hop is it not - to bridge cultural divides and bring people together through music?

I do enjoy listening to alternative music with a political bent to it, and many of them employ hip hop elements in their music to some degree, and that also speaks to the power of the genre. Two immediately off the top of my head are Rage Against the Machine and SupaClean.

I'm just glad to see Rabble expand their horizons, and hopefully through such work bring people onto the site that might not otherwise find their way here.


From: Abbotsford BC | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 12:37 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Roy. Please spread the word. If you contact me a wmacphail (AT) gmail.com I'll send you a flyer you can print and post. Same goes for anyone.

cya,
Wayne


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 12 June 2006 01:00 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Found the podcast interesting from a 'first timer' perspective... Which I think thats what it's intended to be. Someone who has previous knowledge of hiphop should be well beyond most of what is brought up in the program. If you are intending to get your feet wet, it's a good start.

Reminds me of seeing a lecture on drugs in pop culture and watching a professor try to explain what a roach clip is used for. If you're in the know, it's quite silly... If you've had no exposure what so ever, it's quite helpful.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 June 2006 01:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yabbut...isn't there some legitimacy to the idea that the person introducing people to hiphop should maybe be someone from the community whose music it is? I know there are white hip-hop artists (if I'm not mistaken, one of the people doing this podcast is one, right?), but does a white person really have a lot of insight into the cultural aspects of hip-hop?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 12 June 2006 01:45 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
but does a white person really have a lot of insight into the cultural aspects of hip-hop?

The musics of the streets can be studied and adored by anyone. Since Rap shares alot of it's roots with Blues, theres alot of older white blues artists that are surprisingly good at rapping (There was an email vid that flew around the office with some 50 year old white male imitating most rappers and doing quite a decent job of it... After putting in his rapping teeth that is). If you trace the roots, I believe most hiphop is influenced by bluegrass roots that go back to the first African Americans (There was a discussion in the culture forum on this I think?).

Hiphop is inspired by life on the urban streets, but the subject matter can be all over the place (Deltron 3030 is a good example there). The fact of the matter is that this life on the street (ghetto life) is more common for someone of black descent... But not exclusive. You can be of these streets regardless of race. That isn't to say you can't rap without the urban street roots... There is a preppy rap that has come out where they lack this street heritage. Ryan (no offence intended) appears to be more of the preppy rap as opposed to street rap, but I may be mistaken. Regardless of where it's come from, it's always managed to produce some incredible (and unique) tunes.

bleh, my grammar sucks. eddited to fix

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
periyar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7061

posted 12 June 2006 02:51 PM      Profile for periyar   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wayne MacPhail:
[QB]:

Personally, I have little time for "voice appropriation" discussions. We're very open to giving everyone tools to discuss their communities and others.


Vocie appropriation is a very critical issue for pocs in all realms of life,including culture and to be so dismissive of why this is an issue is really insulting. And it delegitimizes all the rhetoric in your post about reaching out to communities of colour etc etc. With all your reaching out- i'll ask again-why couldn't you show case black artists? When people are marginalized and excluded due to systemic racism, people who have power to make decisions have to make a conscious effort to provide access. You or whoever is in charge had an opportunity to do that and you didn't. So- you can expect to be called on it and it's unfortunate that you respond with defensiveness and empty rhetoric, although not surprising.

And actually- we do have one thing in common-i too am not interested in re-hashing the old cultural appropriation debate as i've already done it here on babble and generally find that it's not a great space for pocs who want to discuss anti-racism without having to defend the basic principles-like that there is actually systemic discrimination-power differentials and all that boring stuff.


From: toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 04:47 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle wrote:

quote:
Yabbut...isn't there some legitimacy to the idea that the person introducing people to hiphop should maybe be someone from the community whose overmusic it is?

Not for lack of trying. And, what am I supposed to have said to Carly, who approached me with the idea, "Sorry, not interested because you're white, Irish and have blonde hair?"

Besides, hiphop is, as has been expressed previously, no longer simply a black cultural expression. It has transcended a single group, and more power to it. Sure, its roots were in the black community, and we welcome black interpreters, but, for whatever reason, none have stepped up to the plate. That doesn't make Carly and Pat second best, it makes them first to approach us.

Flip it around a bit, I don't imagine Carly would get bent out of shape because someone from the Sudan did a podcast about Celtic music (musical overlaps not withstanding). If they're interested, bring a fresh perspective and, better still are exploring the genre themselves (as Pat is), that's a bonus.

As for voice appropriation. The tools are becoming more and more accessible all the time (sure, they're not perfect but the direction is right). All I'm saying is I'd rather spend my volunteer energy (and all my energy at rabble is volunteer) on making good tools available for good people to tell great stories. I have no energy to debate who gets to tell what story. I'm not saying it doesn't matter to some folks, just not high on my to do list. Too many podcasts to encourage folks from all cultures to make.

As for the veiled racist suggestion, pal. Bite me.

If you want to make a podcast, step up.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 June 2006 05:14 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think she called you racist, veiled or otherwise. Discussions about voice appropriation are quite common in anti-racist discourse, and on a progressive web site that welcomes a broad cross-section of the left, people are going to talk about that, and give rabble their feedback about it.

I had a sociology teaching assistant during my first year of university, a white woman. She did her Master's thesis on something to do with the Black community. And she told us that during her defense, she had to answer questions about voice appropriation and her standpoint as a white researcher, researching whatever the phenomenon was she was researching in the Black community. She told us that she wasn't offended - she felt it was a relevant question.

I think it's a relevant question here, too. Respectfully, I think you might consider taking the advice you gave to Cueball earlier, Wayne. If I'm not mistaken, periyar is the only person of colour posting in this thread so far. I think it's kind of sad to see her views dismissed so contemptuously, while at the same time saying that no people of colour are approaching the rpn with their ideas.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Benjamin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7062

posted 12 June 2006 05:55 PM      Profile for Benjamin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Respectfully, I think you might consider taking the advice you gave to Cueball earlier, Wayne.

Tread gently Michelle, or you too might be receiving a digital dismissal via a pink-slip in your inbox.

Was the Podcast an intro to hip-hop? Not really, more like an opportunity for up-and-comers for a little self-agrandizing/free advertising. Hip-hop has a rich history, which surely would be included in even the most basic introductions to the genre, and was woefully absent from this podcast.

The topic of voice appropriation becomes even more important for cultural aspects that were born out of marginalized segments of society. Hip-hop represents just that, the music of a very marginalized segment of society, and yes it has broadened since its beginnings, but to discount this aspect so quickly Wayne, shows a very poor level of understanding on your part.

Asking why people are not stepping up despite your most admirable volunteer efforts also shows a pretty poor understanding of discrimination. Canada would have a female prime minister if women would just step up, right? First nations people would be employed widely throughout the professional sector if they just stepped up also? News anchors would be African-Canadians if they just stepped up too? I could go on...


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 12 June 2006 06:24 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Benjamin:
Tread gently Michelle, or you too might be receiving a digital dismissal via a pink-slip in your inbox.

Oh bull. I'm sorry, but I didn't post that in order to give anyone an opening to smear Wayne with baseless and off-topic accusations. I posted "respectfully" because Wayne and I are colleagues (and friends) who are disagreeing at this moment. Please don't use any of my posts to paint some distorted picture from your imagination of my working conditions.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 12 June 2006 06:48 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Benjamin, however it might suit your construct, Michelle isn't in any danger. Jeez Louise.

Look, we are trying to remove every barrier we can to podcasting. The network backend is built, easy and free. The service is free. An audience of about 100,000 subscribers is handed to podcasters on a silver platter. We're offering free workshops on podcasting. We're doing what we can. If anyone who is complaining wants to help out, great.

It was not my intention to slight anyone, and if I did, I am sorry.

As for suggesting Carly and Pat are doing a podcast for their own self-interest. In part, no doubt. That's fine. More power to them. But, are they providing a valuable service? I think so.

Benjamin, if you'd like to help them out with some history or contribute to the show, I'm sure they'd be open that.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 12 June 2006 11:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne MacPhail:

1) Lots of volunteer members of the rpn team, including those in the black community, have really worked at reaching out to diverse communities to get their voices on the rpn. In fact, that's what Charlotte, I and others spend a good deal of our voluntary time on. Tori, Charlotte and I just gave a free podcasting seminar at Harbourfront for just that reason.

Harbourfront is not in Scarborough.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2006 12:17 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frankly anyone who hangs out at Dooney's more than twice a week will have about five opportunities to meet, and possibly engage enterprisng young hip hop guys peddling their wares. Certainly, an opportunity to make contact.

Why not for instance get in touch with one of the local TO promoters like Jonathon Ramos, and get him to find a co-producer. Your regular hosts work the show to but then you have given someone not only exposure but also an opportunity to hang out with the people with money, which is always useful for people from marginalized communities.

Thing is see, Hip Hip is derived from an expressly revolutionary political left Black liberation movement begun by people like Gil Scott Heron, who carried on the ideas of people like Malcol X into music. Most people I am sure have heard the oft sampled line "the revolution will not be be televised." Well that is Heron, from the his beat black urban beat poetry of the sixties.

The line is so famous, that a recently released film about Hugo Chavez is called "THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED.:"

quote:
The revolution will no be televised
You will not be able to stay home, brother.
You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
Skip out for beer during commercials,
Because the revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox
In 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John
Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.

The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by the
Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie
Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia.
The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
The revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
The revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, Brother.

There will be no pictures of you and Willie May
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being
run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and
Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.

Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and Jackie Onassis blowing her nose.
The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be right back
after a message about a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
You will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.


The beat poetry of people like Heron changed the face of Urban black music and later we had Run DMC, Public Enemy, Bytches with Problem (AKA BWP or just the Bytches) and host of other operating on Def Jam records, originally a DIY label owned and operated by black people to produce black music.

Chuck D, produced the tune "Fight the Power" which became an anthem for black youth living in poverty in the New York slums as ever the present tune transported by the ill-fated Radio Raheem, through Spike Lees' breakthrough movie "Do the Right Thing," which set off a trend of ghetto focussed films like Boys in the Hood," etc.

Can white people do Hip Hop? Of course they can, but at least Eminem was candid enough to run himself down by comparing himself to Elvis. He is certainly no Chuck Berry of Hip Hop, those accolades remain elswhere.

But where would Elvis have been without Chuck Berry? Korea.

quote:
Originally posted by Wayne MacPhail:
Cueball, please try to discuss this issue without making personal remarks about the hosts. You raise an important point and it would be best for the discussion if folks took you serioiusly without being distracted by ad hominem comments.

[ 12 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


Hey I guess I feel a littl sorry about this but I was pretty mad, as for the comment itself, have you ever seen any black people not get voted off the Island?

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 13 June 2006 01:38 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're right, Cueball. Harbourfront isn't Scarborough. And, Harbourfront isn't the only outrearch Charlotte and others have done. It was one example. You want a podcast workshop in Scarborough and you're hooked in there, great. Help us set one up. I'll give up another weekend. But, to be fair, Harbourfront is near a transit line, we charged zip, and we promoted the workshop to a variety of non profits and outreach groups.

As for the revolution and television. Ah, podcasting is about putting media tools in the hands of people. I'm not making excuses nor taking crap from anybody about the work we're doing. Could we do more, sure? Could we use more volunteer help? Damn straight.

You wrote:

quote:
Why not for instance get in touch with one of the local TO promoters like Jonathon Ramos, and get him to find a co-producer.

If you would like to volunteer to do that, great. Good idea. If you just want to snipe from the sidelines, ah, not so great.

Am I going to apologize for who Charlotte and I and the rest of the rpn volunteers have helped make free podcasts? Nope.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2006 02:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look here: I am using the media of my own written words to try and make you understand some things about what I think are important to being "progressive." Progressive is not just what you talk about, it is also about what you do and also how you approach things. I am doing the completely free of charge, even though I am tired, and I think you are probably not interested in understanding what I am saying.

Unlike you, I don't happen to think that entering into this discussion with you is at all "sniping from the sidelines" it is entering into an important discussion about some principles that many people on the "left" are not to clear on.

It is just as good as any podcast. I am volunteering my ideas for discussion.

So to quote Bloch: "I am, you are, we are, now let us begin:" (so much for Descarte, eh?)

"Being" progressive is not just about saying progressive things, it is also doing progressive things. Notice the word "being," as in a state of "being." K?

Ok now, affirmative action, I think a principle that is fairly well established around here as a "progressive" principle, is about creating equity. Equity, is in many senses the kind of things that people like Malcolm X and Martin Luther King died for.

And what that means is that, (when it is appropriate and possible) you need to reach out to communities which are traditionally disadvantaged by structural racism, and actively persue them in order to include them in the power structure to which you are privy to, this is especially true when you are doing things which directly concern them.

This does not just mean talking about things like equity or equality, and what not. It is about actively doing something about it.

And in this case I think you had a perfect opportunity to do just that, by bringing on someone from the community which originated the form of music you are featuring. It is not as if we are talking about Nusserat Fateh Ali Khan, Papa Wemba, or even Natcha Atlas, we are talking about a scene which Canada has made a substantial contribution too, Canadian Carribean influences being trademark contribution to the genre.

So, in doing this you could have achieved three progressive things:

1) Talk about the revolutionary left and progressive origins of the musical form. (Education)

2) Act on those ideas, by proactively pursuing someone to co-produce the show, to give an inside view of it, and give that person an opportunity to develop their journalistic or artistic career. (affirmative action)

3) Build linkages and understandings between communities in deed not just in words. (integration)

None of this was achieved.

Instead we have insular cultural appropriation, as opposed to collective cultural developement.

I don't want anyone to appolozize. What I want is for you to understand the problem. You see this is important because one of the problems of privilege is that people usually don't even know when they are benefitting from it.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2006 04:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I really liked that last post, Cueball. I mostly agree with it, but I just wanted to say one thing:

quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And in this case I think you had a perfect opportunity to do just that, by bringing on someone from the community which originated the form of music you are featuring.

Actually, there's still the opportunity to do that. As far as I know, there is no limit to the number of podcasts that the rpn can put up, nor is there a limit to one podcast per genre. Having one hip-hop podcast does not mean that there cannot be any other ones. So, the opportunity is still there, and I think your suggestions are good ones.

I understand Wayne's feelings here, too - I know, from conversations I've had with Wayne and Charlotte, and the rpn stuff I sat in on at the beginning (I'm not all that involved in it anymore), that representation and outreach to minority communities was one of the top priorities. I believe the Harbourfront was chosen because it is a central location that people from all over Toronto and the GTA could get to easily by public transit. If he'd had it in Scarborough, would people of colour from north Etobicoke communities have been able to reach it easily?

Also, time is an issue. People only have so much time to do stuff. Wayne lives in Hamilton, so it's kind of difficult for him to "hang around Dooney's". I know that he and Charlotte have been actively approaching people from, for instance, organizations that represent minority communities to try to get podcasts going. (And although I'm not familiar with every rpn podcast, I know they've been successful in at least a couple of cases, such as AfricaFiles, which is a podcast about Africa by Africans.)

I think you've come up with a couple of good suggestions for outreach. I agree with you that it's not "sniping from the sidelines" to do so - it's audience feedback, which is important, and better yet, it's audience feedback with concrete ideas and suggestions, which is even better.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 13 June 2006 04:42 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, could we move this discussion somewhere else so that folks that want to discuss some other aspect of the show can do so?
From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2006 04:50 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Like where?

Cueball had started a thread in rabble reactions about it, but since it was specifically feedback about this podcast, I moved the discussion here, where the people involved in the making of the podcast would see it, since this thread was started with a specific request for feedback on the show.

What would be stopping people who want to talk about other aspects of the show from doing so?

In any case, I can't really move posts from one thread to another - I don't think that's technically possible with this software. If you'd like to start another thread for this discussion, then as the co-moderator of this forum, feel free.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 10:06 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hi Guys,

I am very excited that you all responded to the show. Good or bad this is exactly what I was hoping for.

First and foremost I would like to make one thing really clear. Our show is not about US (me and Pat)it is bringing out people who amazed us in hip hop and let others hear them.

Personally I don't know ALOT about hip hop but I know enough from the shows i've been to the battles i've see and the people i've met. It interests me to let others know that hip hop isn"t about "HOEs" or guns or "bitches" is like modern day poetry. Its about expression. Thats why I chose to do the show. So yes as a white women, I can also grow and learn more just as the listeners can. I'm sure that not even Spike Lee knows everything about it and he himself can always learn.

If you stay with the show, you will learn as well to see local artists with something to say about poverty, about surviving, about what it means to them to express themselves in poetry without looking like women. If you stay with the show you will learn that hip hop isn't about black and white (even if they look like they should be on survivor). Its about talent and truth.

So please if your doubting us I am always looking for constructive criticism but have a listen to our next show and pay attention to the fact that me and Pat are merely two interested people who were blown away with outstanding talents that aren't doing it for fame and money. They are real artists who have something to tell you. If you missed that point, then I'm very sorry, let our next show prove you wrong.

Thanks again for the feedback.
Have a good day,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 10:55 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would also like to correct that our email address is ripped101@gmail.com

Thanks again,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 11:03 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball,

I welcome any changes you have about the show. But this show is about what others have to say about their life and their impression of hip hop. I would love to have you on and speak about something. You seem very intelligent and well educated and you see that's the reason I want to let others express what they know as well. Please keep in mind that this was only our first show and it can only get better. Contact me at anytime to help with information or if you know of a show or any artists that infulenced you.

Thanks,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I welcome anyone who wants to have a say in our show, on our show. This is a great opportunity to help our show reach the level you see it. Wether I'm white or not, I do believe that this music, this history is worth hearing. Don't get me wrong, but if hip hop is this powerful why not let a few other people be heard and hear it. I am not arguing with the points made. They are great points and I want to learn from anyone who is willing to take a chance on me. Give me a shot and I won't let any of you down. This show is for everyone and anyone.

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2006 12:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Divorcing the music from the history is the kind of journalistic choice that supports what Malcolm X would likely call the "whitewash," with a sly little grin. It is not as if black artists have not actively contributed to the whitewash either, after all black people are probably more aware than white people, as to what side their bread is buttered on. As it stands today "power" in mainstream Hip Hop has become equated with money, and the power to aquire wealth, and inclusion in society has essentially been reduced to the "right to also be an asshole."

These are capitalist "safe" concepts, whereas the conception of "power," as expressed by many of the early Black urban poets, and Rappers, and even a few of todays Hip Hop artist are taken directly from the political ideas of people like Malcom X, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale and Jessie Jackson. No matter how we slice it, that is the tradition which we are talking about when we talk about Hip Hop, no matter how blanched it is today.

Kanye West being one of the few Hip Hop Artist of note to be excepted from the rule, by taking strong stands on non-safe issues, such as Homophobia, and also on the New Orleans disaster ("George Bush does not care about black people.") But this type of view, is much more on the level of the Dixie Chick or other politically minded celebrities making a stand, as opposed to the early period of rap, or even punk, where politics was an essential element of the genre.

And in this we see one of the reasons that there was an explosion of punk and rap cross-overs because despite differing styles, both punk and rap shared similar political content, in particular anti-racist themes, DIY attitude and left communalist ideas, where "power" was not the personal power of aquisition, but political power, something which was certainly not a capitalist "safe" idea.

Would we actually talk about punk as a genre without mentioning the Clash?

So when I speak about these things, I am not just speaking about the continuance of a racial identity but also a "left" identity embodied in music. So in fact when I think of people like Malcolm X (now there is a poet, no?) and Gil Scott Heron, and Chuck D., I do not think we are only talking about black leadership, (the way it is generally talked about) we are talking about left leadership. Our leadership, and our history, as those people embodied many of the ideals of the left in the USA, of opposition to injustice, poverty and tyranny of the state, not just black leadership safely cordoned of in that safe ideological box of all things black that don't really have much to do with us.

Now this is not to say that "Blackness" can be divorced from the challenge people like Malcolm X posed to the state and their unique importance the communities which they represented, as black leaders, but also to say that they were not only black leaders, but also left leaders. And this confluence of association berween movements should be recognized, exposed and taught, when we talk about Hip Hop and Rap, and the best way to do this is by making an extra affort to empower black youth to speak for themselves, not just speak about them, in all our media.

So by unconsciously erasing these memories, by not consciously making an effort to talk about it, or engaging people who still represent those ideas in their music, (where Hip Hop simply becomes a set of cool phrases, and cultural fad) we buy into the selling out of Hip Hop to the mainstream capitalist media by not expressly bringing attention to its relationship to the black liberation movement, we are also erasing the militant history of the left.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball,

When did I say that I wasn't going to talk about the history? To be honest we originally had a segment that did talk about the history. I wrote a huge piece on Cool DJ Herc. But this first show needed to be slimmed down and we lost alot. There will be plenty of artists on the show that aren't white and plenty of opportunity to get into the history. I'm not sure what you take me as, but I am not going to fail at this or emabrass anyone. I guess im missing your point what is it exactly that you would like to say about the show? Are you willing to help or just comment on it?

Thanks again for the response,
Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
v michel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7879

posted 13 June 2006 12:44 PM      Profile for v michel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
5) Personally, I have little time for "voice appropriation" discussions. We're very open to giving everyone tools to discuss their communities and others.

If you are "giving" the tools, you control the tools. You control the means of production, and you control access to an audience. You have some responsibility to think about voice appropriation, as you are the one controlling which voices will be heard. I sympathize that you probably feel you're doing the best you can by trying to help more people make podcasts, and I'm very respectful of the fact that this is volunteer time. However, I also think that you are in a power position as the one who "gives" tools and access, and that anyone in such a power position needs to think hard about who they are helping and who they are marginalizing.

In this case, you are influencing which voices will be heard. It is unavoidable that you will exert such an influence, as you can't be everywhere and do everything at once. You make choices, and those choices decide who will be heard. In such a position, I think you do have a reponsibility to think about voice appropriation.

My intent is not to say anything personally critical of you, but rather to comment on the responsibilities of all people who control the means of media production and access to audiences.


From: a protected valley in the middle of nothing | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 13 June 2006 12:59 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, we're about as uncontrolling a bunch as you're likely to find. If anyone has a passion for something and would like to have their voice heard, and can commit to dealing with "the beast that must be fed" (i.e. a regular show) we're all about helping them. And, it's a two-way street. We offer the tools and techniques freely but folks also have to, like Carly and Pat have done, make the disciplined commitment to production.
From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2006 01:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Burns11:
Cueball,

When did I say that I wasn't going to talk about the history? To be honest we originally had a segment that did talk about the history. I wrote a huge piece on Cool DJ Herc. But this first show needed to be slimmed down and we lost alot. There will be plenty of artists on the show that aren't white and plenty of opportunity to get into the history. I'm not sure what you take me as, but I am not going to fail at this or emabrass anyone. I guess im missing your point what is it exactly that you would like to say about the show? Are you willing to help or just comment on it?

Thanks again for the response,
Carly


I don't want you to say anything. I am suggesting that you source a series of co-producers from minority communities who use Hip Hop and Rap as a vehicle for expressing minority opinion, and include them in the production of the show.

Simply put, I think you should contact Jonathon Ramos, and say you are looking for people to co-produce shows on politics in Hip Hop from a progressive point of view. This way you will not only be talking about the right thing, but doing the right thing.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 13 June 2006 01:14 PM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That sounds great. I will do that. Thank you for your last post.

Have a good day,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 13 June 2006 01:15 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So that a whole gender won't be erased in this discussion:

About The Revolution: Sarah Jones

femalehiphop.net

And here's a nice ZNet piece for free: Hip Hop's Black Political Activism. It includes this:

quote:
Activist and public speaker Rosa Clemente states, “sexism is Hip Hop’s biggest problem.” Hip Hop must deal with its own sexism before it can make a significant contribution to the larger political arena. Clemente observes that Hip Hop is repelling women of color and “can’t be loosing people” to manifest its potential. Clemente says it must begin with the sexism of male Hip Hop activists, journalists and academics.

quote:
It’s also important to remember that hip-hop feminism is not just about the women in hip-hop. Filmmaker Byron Hurt’s forthcoming PBS documentary ‘Beyond Beats and Rhymes: Masculinity in Hip Hop Culture’ will be screened on the opening night of the University of Chicago conference. As Hurt told Suemedha Sood, “So much of the ills in our society come from the way we men define manhood. I want this film to really get men to question and to challenge the way we’re socialized and conditioned.” blackfeminism.org

From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 13 June 2006 01:39 PM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball wrote

quote:
This way you will not only be talking about the right thing, but doing the right thing.

With, or without co-production with folks from the black community, ripped will be a fine piece of work.

I'm not buying into your construction around this, nor do I think you get to claim any moral high ground or establish polarities and expect the podcast to be measured against them. But we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm stepping out of this discussion.


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2006 01:45 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I appreciate your valiant defence of your co-workers, but I suggest that you rip a couple of Carly's posts from the board, change the font to 36 points, add bold and then post them above your computer as an example of how a media professional handles criticism.

I worked as a project manager on an album for three years, which was compared to shit by the reviewer from Eye Magazine. Life is tough.

[ 13 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7673

posted 13 June 2006 11:03 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I haven't listened to the show and i probably won't, because i'm really busy for the next few days and then i'll be moving. I applaud Pat and Carly for putting the time into the show and i applaud Wayne for all the volunteer work he's done getting the podcast infrastructure going.

But i gotta say Wayne's comments really rubbed me the wrong way. He's not interested in discussions about voice appropriation and he thinks of himself as uncontrolling. But then this thread is set up for feedback on the show, and when people provide some (constructive) criticism, Wayne wants the discussion moved so that "folks that want to discuss some other aspect of the show can do so". This suggestion really bugged me. To me this sounds like "move the negative stuff so that people can come here and gush about how great the show is." Then to top if off he flounces after being unsuccessful at redirecting the dialogue.

Wayne, assuming you're still reading, what do you want us to be talking about? What do you want people to give you as feedback? What do you want us to be having discussions about? Should that be our choice or yours?

This strikes me as someone from the mgt committee coming on here and trying to dictate what is being discussed (and Michelle i think you handled it really well). And no, i'm not trying to stir up shit, or bring up old arguments. I am trying to help.

Wayne, these people are trying to HELP you. And i'm trying to tell you that you are ALIENATING your audience on babble. I have heard that you're not used to the way discussions can go on online message boards (and that you don't really have time to get used to it, since you are a very busy person who does a lot of good things)...it seems to me like you are being unnecessarily defensive. Because nobody is attacking you here. When someone asks, "how come two white kids are doing a hip hop show?", it's not an attack, it's a valid question. If nobody asked it then babblers would be doing you a disservice. You asked for feedback, and your response to the feedback seemed pretty much like "i don't care". How do you think that will make people feel the next time you ask for feedback?


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wayne MacPhail
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 119

posted 14 June 2006 02:57 AM      Profile for Wayne MacPhail   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am still listening. I've also been involved in online discussion boards since the late 70s, and have set up my share of them from scratch, including helping with the creation of this one. I have a pretty good understanding of how message boards work, and the personality enhancement that can take place in an anonymous, mediated environment.

As anyone who knows me will tell you, I'm very open to feedback, positive or negative. What I'm not open to is personal attacks on my friends and colleagues, nor am I interested in suggestions that Michelle will get canned if she disagrees with me, nor that I'm a flouncing interloper from the management committee.

That is so far from reality it is, well, not surprising, but disappointing and infuriating.

I'm not interested in discussion that is so framed and jaded by a tired "David and Goliath" construct that everyone who doesn't agree exactly with your position is "The Man", or in need of education about the real purpose of the left.

I suggested this discussion be moved because it was too long and punctuated by long tracts and poetry that readers not interested in this aspect of ripped would find cumbersome to scroll through, if they wanted to talk about something else.

And no, I'm not especially interested in discussing voice appropriation, especially when it's used as a reason to go at a new podcast. Did I expect it? Sure. Did I expect two students out to produce something interesting to be personally insulted? I had hoped not.

I think babble forums, all online forums, have great potential for feedback and audience building, but, when you start that feedback off with insults (and then half hearted apologies), don't expect me to be all ears.

I'm a big fan of message boards, part of my paying gig is to set them up for companies. I just don't like this one very much.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Wayne MacPhail ]


From: Hamilton | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 14 June 2006 08:46 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dislike the route this thread took... I think it's very important to recognize that rap has very much evolved from it's roots and this show reflects that.

Calgary's Hiphop scene isn't bad... Illmovements and Audible Intillegence are decently established and boast pretty impressive DJ's. In Audible Intelligence's case, the DJ's are primarily of Asian decent (DJ EquAzn and DJ DisOriental for example). As other genre's have developed and diversified, so has Hiphop... It's important to make that link. One of the street artists here, Chains, produces much a much more traditional Hiphop sound which is exceedingly different sound.

As it is important to recognize Hiphops origins, it's also important to recognize this diversity. Carly and Ryan's podcast show this other side of hiphop (as I like to refer to it... Preppy hiphop) and does a good job of introducing a listener. As someone who follows the hiphop scene, I found it somewhat generic... For a someone trying to get into the genre, this does a decent job (hence the name 'Hiphop 101').

If you want to find a podcast that showcases black artists, go find one! This is showcasing a different peice of the world of Hiphop.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 14 June 2006 09:49 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you want to find a podcast that showcases black artists, go find one! This is showcasing a different peice of the world of Hiphop.


I don't think that was the main issue some posters have. However, to draw on your post, Native people also have contributed to Hip Hop - see Buggin Malone, now up for a Nammy.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 14 June 2006 10:02 AM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Native people also have contributed to Hip Hop - see Buggin Malone, now up for a Nammy

Exactly... I beleive there is a couple Native Hiphop artists with illmovements as well.

There was also a post regarding female influence is hiphop as well... Once again, Illmovement leads the way hosting several 'bgirls' along with the 'bboys' (not trying to promoted ill, just pointing out how far Hiphop has diversified).


You can go back to Cueballs original post (from another thread I beleive requoted in this one)

quote:
One really has to wonder about Rabble's commitment to affiramtive action, or building left linkages with minority communities, when it can't seem to even find someone from the media savvy black community to give us the inside scoop on themselves.

You must wonder about one wondering "about commitment to affirmitive action" if they beleive Hiphop is unique solely to the black community (or that giving the 'inside scoop' on Hiphop is akin the the 'black community giving us the inside scoop on themselves'). Hiphop is not unique to any one group like you seem to beleive.

Edit to add:
This isn't to say that we could/should ignore Hiphop's history... I personally would like to here a black Hiphop artist and their views on a Rabble podcast. I just wouldn't discredit Ripped simply because they are coming from a different portion of the Hiphop scene.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 14 June 2006 11:32 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alot of the topics from the this thread will be discussed in our next show. I ask that you please listen to it. I believe that this next show will bring up interesting points from alot of culturals so please stay tuned for it. Proabably as early as next week it will be ready.

Thanks,

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 01:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne MacPhail:

I suggested this discussion be moved because it was too long and punctuated by long tracts and poetry that readers not interested in this aspect of ripped would find cumbersome to scroll through, if they wanted to talk about something else.



I certainly never thought you were "the man." However, this little gem has changed my mind. So, go fuck yourself.

I am sorry if understanding the political history of black resistance to racism requires that you read long articulate poetry about that resistance, or any reading whatsoever.

Have you ever read "Soul on Ice," seen "Do the Right Thing," or bothered to look for the 1972 documentary on "Malcolm X." Perhaps you should.

quote:
I think babble forums, all online forums, have great potential for feedback and audience building, but, when you start that feedback off with insults (and then half hearted apologies), don't expect me to be all ears.

It is quite clear that "feedback" is only a buzz word to you as part of your quest for "audience building."

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 June 2006 01:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I certainly never thought you were "the man." However, this little gem has changed my mind. So, go fuck yourself.

Hey, knock it off. That's completely unnecessary.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 14 June 2006 01:40 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Have you ever read "Soul on Ice,"

Great book.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 01:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wayne brought it up:

quote:
I'm not interested in discussion that is so framed and jaded by a tired "David and Goliath" construct that everyone who doesn't agree exactly with your position is "The Man", or in need of education about the real purpose of the left.


It is his own personal paranoiz.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 01:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is quite clear that Wayne is only really interested in his conception of what the "left" is, he is not interested in discussion about other conceptions of what the "left" is. In fact, there isn't anything he has said wich indicates he believes in anything whatsoever, and just runs and hides as soon as the first shot is fired.

As far as was concerned this issue was over. I had said what I had to say, and felt that Carly, if not Wayne, were listening to what was being said.

Wayne on the other hand is not.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 01:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:

You must wonder about one wondering "about commitment to affirmitive action" if they beleive Hiphop is unique solely to the black community (or that giving the 'inside scoop' on Hiphop is akin the the 'black community giving us the inside scoop on themselves'). Hiphop is not unique to any one group like you seem to beleive.


In this particular case you are dead wrong. Hip Hop is directly derived from North American black poetry styles of the sixties and seventies. Just as Klezmer is Jewish.

The fact that you do not know this is indicative of just how successful the theft is.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 June 2006 01:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
It is his own personal paranoiz.

So, fine. There's still no need to tell him to fuck off. You say you're looking to give some constructive criticism? That ain't it. So, he doesn't have a lot of interest in a more academic debate. Maybe that's a weakness on his part, I don't know. But in his areas of strength (like the work he does for the rpn), he's pretty darned good at it, and you're not going to be allowed to hurl abuse at rabble volunteers like him. He's backed off. You don't need to escalate it.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 01:54 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why should I not tell him to fuck off.

He has said just as much without actually using the words.

At no point has he entered the discussion points that were brought into play by myslef an Periyar. Instead he completely dismissed the aarguement as irrelevant, by repeatedly asserting that voice appropriation is irrelevant, and that he had no interest in it.

His attitude was dismissive to the point where the only person of colour on this thread, and a fan of radical Hip Hop, immedidalty left the discussion.

'nuff said.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 June 2006 01:58 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Why should I not tell him to fuck off.

He has said just as much without actually using the words.


No, actually, he didn't. I agree that he participated just as much as everyone else did in the argument. But at this point, escalating it like this after he's backed off is useless. So cut it out.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 14 June 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So we don't agree.

What about his starting another thread? That seems a lot like "fuck off."

What about "I'm not interested in discussion that is so framed and jaded by a tired "David and Goliath" construct?"

Sounds like "fuck off" to me.

What about: "Personally, I have little time for 'voice appropriation' discussions"? Sounds like "fuck off."

What about dismissing my well thought out, and researched and time consuming efforts as exposition, as long and tedious, as "sniping from the sidelines," Sounds like "fuck off."

He talks a good game of inclusion, but as soon as anyone approaches inclusion by entering into the discussion directly, it becomes for him irrelevant, and he whines about his volunteer time, and gets up on his smarmy soap box about how what I am doing here, and saying here is not relelvant unless I do precisely what he is doing, which is make podcasts.

As if I haven't fucking ever done any volunteer time for anything, or as if my contgributions to this board are the single greatest joy I have in life, and that my long and tedious essays and expressions are not also volunteer efforts, and part of my contribution to the "left" discourse, which Wayne happens to think are irrelevant,

And he calls this inclusion?

It all sounds pretty mushc like fuck off, to me.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 02:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dismissing a discussion about the impact that Malcolm X and the civil rights movement had on modern popular black music, as a "tired David and Goliath costruct," is so laden with white privilege, that it boggles the mind.

What does Wayne really think? Does he really think that everything was AOK after Malcolm and MLK were gunned down, that racism suddenly disappeared from North American culture?

It seems to me that if Wayne is so obtuse as to believe that these are "tired David and Goliath constructs" then the assassins certainly knew what they were about when they killed both of Americas most articulate and popular civil rights leaders.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 14 June 2006 02:31 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In this particular case you are dead wrong. Hip Hop is directly derived from North American black poetry styles of the sixties and seventies. Just as Klezmer is Jewish.

The fact that you do not know this is indicative of just how successful the theft is.


In the 60's and 70's perhaps. Today however, especially in the Canadian market, Hiphop has expanded to include much more (as I have tried to explain, some of the Calgary Hiphop scene is Asian dominated but also includes white, spanish, native, and rappers of all different ethnic origins. Most of which weren't alive in the 70's anyway). Had this Podcast been titled History of Hiphop 101 or something of the likes, I agree entirely with you... But this isn't. Hiphop today includes artists such as Ryan who has as much right to discuss it on the Podcasts as does a Hiphop artist of African American descent that understands its roots.

Heh, though I sorta wish a History of Hiphop 101 podcast did exist now... But I think you're looking too far into what this podcast is. Today's incarnation of hiphop includes artists like Ryan and he is speaking on the subject he is passionate about.

edit: though I can see the frusteration with the thread Cueball... I'm only trying to point out that Hiphop has evolved and Ryan's comments on today's incarnation of Hiphop are as valid as a person of colours would be. If history of Hiphop was the topic, I can see your point quite well.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Noise ]


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what does it say to me, that Wayne who is the master of the media of which we speak, dismisses this "tired David and Goliath construct"? It says to me that Gil Scott Heron was right when he penned his "long and tedious" poem (which we must assume Wayne found too long and tedious to read "the Revolution will not be televised," or podcasted apparently.

quote:
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being
run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and
Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.


He just does not get it. The revolution will not be televised, accroding to Heron because white people will be controling the news.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 02:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Noise:

In the 60's and 70's perhaps. Today however, especially in the Canadian market, Hiphop has expanded to include much more (as I have tried to explain, some of the Calgary Hiphop scene is Asian dominated but also includes white, spanish, native, and rappers of all different ethnic origins. Most of which weren't alive in the 70's anyway). Had this Podcast been titled History of Hiphop 101 or something of the likes, I agree entirely with you... But this isn't. Hiphop today includes artists such as Ryan who has as much right to discuss it on the Podcasts as does a Hiphop artist of African American descent that understands its roots.

Heh, though I sorta wish a History of Hiphop 101 podcast did exist now... But I think you're looking too far into what this podcast is. Today's incarnation of hiphop includes artists like Ryan and he is speaking on the subject he is passionate about.


You are missing the point entirely. I am quite well aware that Hip Hop has expanded its horizons, and is now the voice of many different minority groups, and even marginalized white youth. But the point is that it still functions as an effective voice for marginalized people, because the form, (poetry, overlayed on rhythmn,) is particularly suited to complex expression, such as politics, but also because of its legacy as a means of minority expression, which is dirctectly a legacy of its black american roots.

But my point is not about the genre as being accesible for anyone from any background. This is true of any form of music.

The point I was making, was that given that Hip Hop has this specific tradition, and even today acts as an expression for marginalixed voices, such as minority voices, (as you have pointed out ("...Asian dominated but also includes white, spanish, native, and rappers of all different ethnic origins") that it makes sense for a progressive web site not only talk about the political nature of Hip Hop, but also bring on board people who are from those communities to directly empower them with the voice to express themselves about the music.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Noise
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12603

posted 14 June 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for Noise     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
that it makes sense for a progressive web site not only talk about the political nature of Hip Hop, but also bring on board people who are from those communities to directly empower them with the voice to express themselves about the music.

Ok, I understand what you mean now... More along the lines of whether this is suitable content for Rabble as a progressive site (shouldn't Rabble be focussing on political/activism nature?). From that standpoint, I get what you are saying now... Heh, srry for missing where you were coming from.

Meh, I think the podcast lives up to the title. I wouldn't expect more.


From: Protest is Patriotism | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 03:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Partly, what I really mean is what I expressed to Carly is that "being" profressive, is not just about "saying" progressive things it is about "doing" progressive things, and in this case I am suggesting a progressive thing to do would be to bring on co-producers from minority communities so as to directly empower them with a voice.

I think this is particularly important, as Hip Hop and Rap, have traditionally been, and continues to be in many cases, a means of giving minority people a voice, in a media landscape that offers prey few opportunities to do that.

And this is particularly sailent for me, as I know the history and the roots, and know how the music relates to the "black power" movement of the sixties.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More tedious and long expression by black people framing things in "tired David and Golaith constructs:

quote:
Classic multimedia stars are truly what the past ten years of hip hop stars are. It was because the suits and ties of an industry finally caught up with what they didn't understand at first. We are simply in the hair band era, Framptoned, Slaughter days of the rap game. Then again, I'm talking to the converted that read these T-domes, aren't I? But again as an artist I've been pleased with my approach even if the next 'NATIONS' never lands upon us. I'm tired of the rock cats like Stones, and even Rush and AC/DC being judged by the road of their own thing, and not some grouped in standard.

Hello, does the world of hip hop realize there's a war going on? I look around at the hip hop nation and I get little or no activity whatsoever. The whole hip hop vibe has cheesed itself into the 'elite' class. Man that makes it rough on rappers who have little self esteem. Recently I've been driving my daughter's '92 Dodge Spirit and getting crazy disbelief looks in NYC. That's exactly why I dig driving it. The superficial state of bling has blinded peeps from looking inside, and believing stereotypes. Yeah, I tell people I'd be damned if they think that my self esteem can be defined by a car. I couldn't care less if it was the Concord, anything I'm rolling in is a step down from myself.


Chuck D.

[ 14 June 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 14 June 2006 03:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More tedium:

quote:
Wednesday, April 26, 2006
In the United States, race is the elephant in the room that no one mentions, Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts and hip-hop artist Chuck D told a nearly packed house at the Paramount Theatre on Tuesday night.

"In the days immediately after (Hurricane) Katrina, there were a lot of overdue discussions of race and class," said Pitts, who won a Pulitzer Prize in 2004 for his columns. "Six months later, you don't have that anymore. . . . We as a nation find that stuff very difficult to talk about. We'd rather jump through hoops of fire."

The pair also decried the influence of large record companies on black culture and hip-hop music, which some perceive as representative of black culture.

"Whenever big business gets behind culture, there's bound to be a mutant that'll be formed," Chuck D said. "You cannot look through the portal of (modern) hip-hop and see black people."

Chuck D, born Carlton Ridenhour, is a founding member of the hip-hop group Public Enemy. Since the peak of Public Enemy's popularity in the late 1980s and early '90s, he has done hundreds of lectures around the country. He also runs an online record label.

Dating back to the days of slavery, black people have used music to convey messages they couldn't otherwise say, he said.

"They couldn't say things like, 'Cracker, stop whipping my back,' so they had to sing it," he said, then putting the same words to a tune.
Attacking racism is more difficult now than it was 40 years ago because the issue is submerged, Pitts said.


Hip-hop artist, columnist talk about race relations in America.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 14 June 2006 04:09 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for the veiled racist suggestion, pal. Bite me.

I am deeply appalled.

You dimiss, insult and silence the only poc on this thread and then offer some lame half-hearted apology.

[Comment removed by moderator due to complaint about potential defamation.]

What makes this more deeply disturbing is that periyar is someone who has contributed a great deal in discussions around race issues previously on babble and I believe she actually had left for some time due to offensive interactions that we witnessed here.

Secondly it is not appropriate for a white man to decide whether discussions of cultural appropriation are relevant, that is dismissive and silencing and therefor also racist. The issue of cultural appropration and economic theft is central in any discussion on hiphop or any other musical/art for derived from the african community.

I am alsoirritated that white activists believe there is some magic point you reach and afterwards can never be guilty of behaving in a racist fashion. It is not that easy. Racism is deeply embedded in our cultural , national discourse that it is impossible for any of us as individuals to be free of it. I believe we all harbour racist thoughts and assumptions and I think we all need to be sensitive that they not influence our words or actions.

I realize Wayne's intent was probably to defend the hosts of the pod cast who I am sure are fine people who worked hard are commoitted passionate about music. Unfortunately none of that negates the relevance of a discussion concerning cultural appropriation.

even more unfortunately I think rather than reach his goal his defensive responses have only alienated more people from babble and increased the likelihood that people not listen to the podcast.

I am also aware that Wayne has done good work but it doesn't entitle anyone to act like [comment removed by moderator due to complaint about potential defamation].

I think a genuine apology to both periyar and cueball would be in order.

[ 15 June 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 14 June 2006 04:45 PM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have to agree with N.R. Kissed on this. Cultural (or voice) appropriation is a big deal and it shouldn't be dismissed as not worth getting into.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
Volunteer Moderator
Babbler # 8938

posted 14 June 2006 08:27 PM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm arriving late to this discussion and want to say that I support what periyar, Cueball, N.R.Kissed and Stargazer have said. (NRK, that post above is simply amazing)

Funny timing with this happening now: I just started to read the new bell hooks book, a series of conversations she and amalia mesa-bains had, called "homegrown: engaged cultural criticism".

here's bell on hip-hop, appropriation and consumer capitalism:

quote:

...(w)e are now dealing with a class of white elites who were radicalized by, or at least exposed to, the movements of the 1960s and 1970s. They're not like the capitalists before them. Many have become fiscal conservatives, but many remain social liberals....Some (white people) took on the trappings of being Black, or of being another kind of "other" so as businesspeople they're not afraid of the "other". Instead, for them, black and brown peoples represent a gold mine.

....It's not surprising that young white males - most between thirty and forty - play major roles in the production of hip-hop. It's easy to forget this because when most people critique rap and hip-hop harshly, they assume that young black men are the sole creators and producers of misogynist rap. In fact, nothing is unilaterally produced anymore...(o)nce you have a corporate takeover of the street culture, it is no longer the property of the young, Black and Latino men and women who have created it. It is reinvented with the mass consumer audience in mind.

From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Benjamin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7062

posted 14 June 2006 10:07 PM      Profile for Benjamin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm sorry, but I didn't post that in order to give anyone an opening to smear Wayne with baseless and off-topic accusations.

When using big words such as baseless and accusation, it is best to use them properly.

Accusation:

quote:
ac·cu·sa·tion Audio pronunciation of "accusation" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ky-zshn)
n.

1. An act of accusing or the state of being accused.
2. A charge of wrongdoing that is made against a person or other party.



What I made was a B]suggestion[/B], not an accusation.

Baseless:

quote:
base·less Audio pronunciation of "baseless" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bsls)
adj.

Having no basis or foundation in fact; unfounded.



Fact: a Rabble employee WAS fired via email.

Where is the baseless accusation? Not anywhere in my post.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Benjamin
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7062

posted 14 June 2006 10:16 PM      Profile for Benjamin     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
N.R. Kissed that was very eloquently stated - could not agree more.

quote:
I suggested this discussion be moved because it was too long and punctuated by long tracts and poetry that readers not interested in this aspect of ripped would find cumbersome to scroll through, if they wanted to talk about something else.

The beauty of the scrollbar is that it also has this neat little feature whereby if one clicks below the bar, but not on the arrow, the computer scrolls through such tedium as voice appropriate much more quickly.

From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
wage zombie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7673

posted 14 June 2006 11:02 PM      Profile for wage zombie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wayne MacPhail:
I'm a big fan of message boards, part of my paying gig is to set them up for companies. I just don't like this one very much.

Yeah, and it shows. There's nothing wrong with being honest.

So how do we find a solution? If you don't like this board very much, then you shouldn't be promoting podcasts on it. Because this is just going to keep happening. You come on the board acting defensively (because you feel like you're about to be attacked), babblers sense that and it creeps them out, you try to avoid having a conversation, babblers feel annoyed because their concerns are being ignored and so they attack, which ends up reinforcing your dislike of the board.

So how do we get out of this vicious cycle, Wayne?

I think rabble needs to decide if babble is a place for babblers to voice, or a channel for audience building. Usually it can be both, but not always. This thread is now quite derailed...which is not too great for audience building. You wanted to more the conversation somewhere else...not very good for babblers' voice.

Threads often drift off topic, come back again, branch into three separate conversations and do all kinds of other things. It's how babble is. It's going to happen, whether or not it make audience building more difficult.

But if you don't like this board very much, ... ?


From: sunshine coast BC | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4220

posted 15 June 2006 08:16 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
We're so lucky to have Cueball here to tell us what black people think!

To anybody with any history on babble it's plainly obvious that what's going on here is Cueball trying to grind an axe with Wayne over events of a couple of months ago.

[ 15 June 2006: Message edited by: worker_drone ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 15 June 2006 08:22 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We're so lucky to have Cueball here to tell us what black people think!

Why are you causing shit here? Cueball's point is very valid, although I do not agree with the fuck off part. Cueball isn't telling us what black people think, she is telling us to keep in mind Black History and Black voices of struggle.

Put down your axe to grind.


From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 June 2006 08:23 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stargazer:
Cueball isn't telling us what black people think, she is telling us to keep in mind Black History and Black voices of struggle.
.

"She"?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 June 2006 08:32 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
To anybody with any history on babble it's plainly obvious that what's going on here is Cueball trying to grind an axe with Wayne over events of a couple of months ago.

Actually, that's not obvious at all since he never once mentioned it, and your post isn't helpful in the least. If you've got nothing to say beyond indulging in your own very well-known animosity towards Cueball, then stay out of this, please. Things had calmed down and you're just stirring up the shit again. Classic trolling, and it won't be tolerated. I won't warn you again.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Burns11
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12729

posted 15 June 2006 09:15 AM      Profile for Burns11     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've just read over the last few posts. I think everyone has really good points and are allowed to think and feel how they would like. Every person feels differently about certain topics, and I knew that i would be slammed about this show.

I need to put a BIG THANK YOU out there because to be truthful with everyone I want to do a show because I liked alot of local artists and I found the flow of hip hop to really move me. However I have learned so much more about it since starting the show and getting our second one underway. Also from these posts. The whole show has grown into this learning experience.

Please don't tell people not listen to the show. Thats not very nice, and I'm basically on your side. However this show is about entertainment. It's about talent. I'm going to go into the history obviously, but The main idea is to showoff artists, go to hip hop shows, get people excited about a genre of music that people label as baggy pants, guns and violence. I want to change that and show TALENT.

This was my idea for the show, i'm allowed to like and listen to what i want. I'm not hurting anyone and I am going to make sure that the history and the people who deserve to be credited will be. I'm not trying to start a war.

There is alot of things that "white" people have started that other ethnic backgrounds do better at and even helped change for the good. I'm not saying that I'm trying to change hip hop music i'm just making it ok to be white and listen to hip hop. Every weekend when im at a club and im in the hip hop room is a mixure of people enjoying and cd are bought by millions of different people every day.

Seriously, I like that everyone has an opinion, and it really inspires me for the next show because i see how passionate you all are about your beliefs and I will honour them the best I can. But telling people to not listen to the show or slam me because im white hurts my feelings and I dont appreciate that either.

I'm just asking for a chance at this and I need support from anyone and everyone.
Don't be afraid to listen to the show because im white, becuase the multicultural talent that we will feature is nothing to be embarassed about.

Thanks again,

Enjoy the nice day

Carly


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stargazer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6061

posted 15 June 2006 09:16 AM      Profile for Stargazer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh gripes, Cueball is a he, sorry Cueball.
From: Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist. | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged

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