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Author Topic: rabble book lounge boycotts Chapters/Indigo
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 June 2007 02:11 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We at rabble have decided to join with Palestinian solidarity activists in their boycott of the Chapters/Indigo family of companies. As a result, we will no longer be publicizing events taking place at Chapters, Indigo, The World’s Biggest Bookstore, Coles, Smithbooks, and The Book Company.

The boycott aims to pressure Heather Reisman and Gerry Schwartz — the owners of the Chapters/Indigo group — to halt their financial backing of the HESEG Foundation for Lone Soldiers. Founded by Reisman and Schwartz in 2005, HESEG provides scholarships to former “lone soldiers” of the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) who are pursuing post-secondary education. It has been commended by Israel’s former Minister of Defence, Shaul Mofaz, for “directly supporting the morale of the IDF.”

As their title suggests “lone soldiers” are non-Israeli individuals who volunteer to serve in the IDF. As IDF soldiers, they support an army that systematically oppresses Palestinian citizens by operating checkpoints, restricting Palestinian freedom of movement and enforcing the occupation of Palestinian land. The IDF has been found responsible by human-rights groups and Israeli courts for countless rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza including the unlawful killing, arbitrary detention, torture and assault of hundreds of Palestinians.

This boycott is being spearheaded by the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid, the Coalition for Justice and Peace in Palestine, Palestinian and Jewish Unity and the Jewish Alliance Against the Occupation. The boycott is part of the larger International Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Campaign, which is endorsed by 170 Palestinian Civil Society Organizations. —rabble book lounge staff


Read it here.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 28 June 2007 06:38 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Outstanding. As a public service it may be useful to review some of the substantive arguments for the boycott.

1. Gabriel Ash, over at ZNet, notes the strong connection between the neoliberal assault on working people and support for the continuing atrocities of the state of Israel. As Ash puts it, "The nexus between assault on labor and social services and vocal support for Israel crawls up from under every stone one turns."

quote:
Ash: The major argument for boycotting Israel is that it is the right thing to do. And it is. But for those of us who live off wages and depend on public services, it is also the smart thing to do — especially in Europe, where the BDS campaign is now facing a vocal onslaught. Support for Israel is an important pillar of an islamophobic, anti-immigrant and pro-war front, which includes many in the political leadership of Europe; their final prize is finishing off the welfare state.

Why Boycott Israel? Because It's Good for You.

2. The UK University and College Union Boycott Resolutions also provide some helpful information about why the boycott is so necessary:

quote:
Congress notes that Israel’s 40-year occupation has seriously damaged the fabric of Palestinian society through annexation, illegal settlement, collective punishment and restriction of movement.

Congress deplores the denial of educational rights for Palestinians by invasions, closures, checkpoints, curfews, and shootings and arrests of teachers, lecturers and students.

Congress condemns the complicity of Israeli academia in the occupation, which has provoked a call from Palestinian trade unions for a comprehensive and consistent international boycott of all Israeli academic institutions.

Congress believes that in these circumstances passivity or neutrality is unacceptable and criticism of Israel cannot be construed as anti-semitic.

Congress instructs the NEC to
§ circulate the full text of the Palestinian boycott call to all branches/LAs for information and discussion;
§ encourage members to consider the moral implications of existing and proposed links with Israeli academic institutions;
§ organise a UK-wide campus tour for Palestinian academic/educational trade unionists;
§ issue guidance to members on appropriate forms of action;
actively encourage and support branches to create direct educational§ links with Palestinian educational institutions and to help set up nationally sponsored programmes for teacher exchanges, sabbatical placements and research.


Which passed.

quote:
Resolution 31 European Union and Israel
Congress notes:

1. That since the Palestinian elections in January 2006 the Israeli government has suspended revenue payments to the Palestinian authority (PA), and the EU and US have suspended aid, leaving public-sector salaries unpaid and earning the condemnation of the Palestinian General Federation of Trade Unions;
2. That Israel is seeking to upgrade its relations with the EU to the same level as Norway and Switzerland, permitting free passage of goods, people and capital, while denying these freedoms to Palestinians.

Congress resolves to campaign for:
1. The restoration of all international aid to the PA and all revenues rightfully belonging to it;
2. No upgrade of Israel’s status until it ends the occupation of Palestinian land and fully complies with EU Human Rights law;
3. A moratorium on research and cultural collaborations with Israel via EU and European Science Foundation funding until Israel abides by UN resolutions

Congress instructs the NEC to encourage Branches/Associations to
1. raise these campaigns in their Institutions and
2. investigate the possibilities of twinning their Institution with a Palestinian University or College


Which also passed.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Seeker of Wisdom
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posted 28 June 2007 07:46 PM      Profile for Seeker of Wisdom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have you considered the effect a boycott would have on the writers whose books are being promoted?
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
mayakovsky
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posted 28 June 2007 07:56 PM      Profile for mayakovsky     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This will of course be followed by a boycott of Iran and Pakistan whose leaders have actively called for the death of a writer.
From: New Bedford | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Farmpunk
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posted 29 June 2007 01:58 AM      Profile for Farmpunk     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But I wanna go to the Harry Potter Parties.
From: SW Ontario | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 June 2007 02:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker of Wisdom:
Have you considered the effect a boycott would have on the writers whose books are being promoted?

You don't need to be worried about that. If anything, a boycott of Chapters/Indigo would have been warranted all along even without the I/P motivation, in my opinion, because of the great harm they do to the book industry. They are no friend of publishers and authors. They order thousands of the same title (especially at special occasion times, often buying out the title so that independent book stores can't get the title in before that special occasion) at an extremely cut rate, only to either destroy most of them and get credit for them, or send them back to the publisher for credit. So if a publisher wants the book to be sold in Canada, they have to print enough to send thousands and thousands to Chapters at practically no profit to them, even though they know that Chapters is just going to turn around and send most of them back again and they're going to be stuck with books that Chapters never wanted, never intended to sell, but ordered anyhow.

It's ugly. Chapters has destroyed the book business for authors and publishers in Canada. If people start buying all their books from indies, who generally try to buy only the books they think they can sell, that can only help writers and publishers.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 June 2007 02:45 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by mayakovsky:
This will of course be followed by a boycott of Iran and Pakistan whose leaders have actively called for the death of a writer.

I'm sorry, is there a book seller or major business in Canada who has set up a fund to finance the trips of Canadians who want to go to Iran and work for their revolutionary guard?

I must have missed that. Please, give me all the details! Inquiring minds want to know.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 29 June 2007 03:45 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I commend rabble.ca for taking this decision. I gave up television over a year ago and I read voraciously. A guilty pleasure for me is trips to the only big box I visit, Chapters, to browse and purchase books. I had no idea Chapters supported this fund. I have cut up my Chapters club card, and I will purchase on-line (there are no independents near me) from now on.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
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posted 29 June 2007 11:21 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
And I've just renewed mine
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 29 June 2007 05:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just went to Toronto Women's Bookstore for the first time tonight. I know, I know. I've lived here for how long? But it's always been out of the way so I've never gone.

Anyhow, it was a wonderful store. I went there to pick up a book I had ordered. I took my son in and he loved it too.

I think it's a particularly good store to bring up in this thread because I'd much rather go to a book store that stands up to the jingoism of lobby groups trying to pressure them into carrying buttons that say "Stop Homocide Bombing" because some dumbass with a chip on his shoulder was unhappy about them selling buttons that say "End the Occupation Now". Read here for some background on the bullyboy tactics used against them.

Such a nice alternative to shopping at a book store that destroys publishers, beggars writers, and pays young people to leave their families to go to Israel, join the IOF and oppress Palestinians.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Seeker of Wisdom
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posted 29 June 2007 06:35 PM      Profile for Seeker of Wisdom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see what you mean about Chapters, but it seems to me that on the scale of evil businesses they're no worse than maybe a 4 out of 10. I tend to buy my books used or borrow, so they'e not going to miss my business anyway.
From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 02 July 2007 04:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I'm not much of a book-buyer either. Too expensive. Unfortunately, they're ubiquitous. My son likes Chapters, but he really loved the Toronto Women's Bookstore when I took him there, so I think it just depends on what kids are exposed to. I think it's the "book wonderland" feeling of the big box bookstores that make kids like it so much.

It's kind of interesting, explaining to an 8 year-old why it's better to shop at indies than at Chapters. I didn't go into the whole Israel-Palestine thing with him. I instead went into the economic stuff, and he understood it. And now he likes the idea of going to indie stores a lot.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
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posted 02 July 2007 01:49 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I buy tons of books! Now I tend to buy from Barnes & Noble in the states when Im there (which is often), Amazon.ca or I patronize independants like Nicholas Hoare, Sleuth of Baker St, etc

Chapters has been crap since heather took it over.


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Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 03 July 2007 02:21 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh yeah, that's right too.

I think bcg would be wrapping your knuckles over Amazon and Barnes & Noble. (I think they operate on the same predatory market principles that Crapters does here.)

I'm going to make an effort to buy only from indies. I haven't heard of the two you mentioned. Are they in Toronto?

BTW, what do you do when you receive a gift card from Crapters? I have received gift cards in the past from Walmart, and I generally just suck it up and use it, since I'd rather not just let them have the money for nothing. And I find it difficult to tell the non-politicized (or actually right-wing) members of my family not to get me gift cards from places like Walmart or Chapters.

I suppose I could be pre-emptive and ask for gift cards from specific stores in Toronto, like the Toronto Women's Bookstore, etc.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 03 July 2007 03:41 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle, I too like the Woman's Bookstore but the button fiasco was pretty stupid. Everyone from all political stripes damned suicide bombing. That the Woman's Bookstore refused to sell those buttons was as much about their pettiness than anything else. Just because a Jewish organization that suppoorted Israel asked for the store to distribute the button should not have resulted in an automatic "no".
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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Babbler # 8938

posted 03 July 2007 04:33 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Coming out of the urban wilderness to comment on ohara's post.

Please have your facts correct.

TWB was not asked to sell buttons that read "Stop the Suicide Bombing". They were told, in fact, it was demanded of them to give away buttons that read "End the Homicide Bombings".

For a whole host of reasons they refused. This was the right decision and it was supported by the staff, board and community associated with TWB.

Note that TWB did begin to carry buttons that read "Jews against the occupation" and "Jewish women against the occupation"

Here's an old link to the button story from almost 5 years ago. Note the image in the upper left corner, the Palestinian flag with an image of a woman's symbol with a closed fist in the middle, in the colours of the Jewish flag. This was the image on the button.

WAO

Women Against Occupation is now called Women For Palestine, fyi. In the article they also got the text of the button that was demanded to be carried incorrectly, btw.

P.S. To Petsy: How about you make a donation directly to HESEG and also boycott Chapters? That way you can support a cause you believe in, and you don't contribute to the downfall of Canadian bookselling and Canadian publishing? Win-win.


From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
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posted 03 July 2007 05:16 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
Big city gal, how about I do both?

On the Toronto women's bookstore issue, I wasnt around when this was discussed here but it seems to me a tempest in a teapot. The WBS does not have to distribute anything it feels it wont support. No one can TELL it what to do so your claim seems a bit preposterous.

So if the WBS did not support an end to suicide bombings in Israel it didnt have to distribute that button. Clear and simple.


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 03 July 2007 05:22 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, and the best part is, it was demanded of them by MEN. It was a MAN who came into the bookstore and got all in a tizzy over the buttons, and got the CJC to put pressure on the store, to the point of trying to put them out of business by calling for a boycott.

Luckily, TWB customers aren't stupid lemmings, and didn't fall for the hype.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 03 July 2007 06:49 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
How stupid!!

Imagine a man "demanding" the WBS carry a button that advocates an end to suicide bombings in Israel!!


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 03 July 2007 07:08 AM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How stupid is it to believe that a button means everything or anything. Who gave this "man" the auhtority to decide others views on major issues based on a button?

It's basically the "have you stopped beating your wife?" routine and it's being continued in this thread.

I'd like to object to the contributions of Petsy and ohara in this thread. The comments about being petty, suggesting that it was by viture of being a Jewish organization they refused the buttons which is just a thinky veiled accusation of anti-semitism and then we get accusation that some how by not giving into bullies over a button they must actually support suicide bombings. It's pretty much slander.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
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posted 03 July 2007 07:59 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
1. I support totally the right of the WBS to sell whatever it likes whenever it likes

2. I think it was grossly stupid and ignorant for any man to have tried to coerce the WBS into doing anything.

3. My favourite button is "wearing buttons is not enough"

4. The WBS did not handle this well and either did the Jewish organizations. It was a time fraught with tension. Innocent Israelis were being killed in Israeli cafes and innocent Palestinians were paying the price for this as well. Surley a statement deploring violence could have been coonsidered probably from both sides.

If all that is, as Scout says, an attempt at bullying and slander well what can I say. Maybe I could have expressed myself better but there it is.

[ 03 July 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 03 July 2007 09:22 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I dont quite get it. How can anyone DEMAND anything from the Women's bookstore?

I certainly remember this fiasco and I still believe that the button issue was nothing more thatn a political spat. Trouble was that Israelis were being killed in the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and many believed that the Bookstore by refusing to stock the buttons against suicide bombing was blaming the victim by insisting that "it was the occupation stupid"!!


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 03 July 2007 09:40 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Easy. You say, "We demand that you carry our stupid buttons. If you don't, we're going to organize a boycott against you."

Just because you make a demand doesn't mean it will be met. But it's still a demand.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
EmmaG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12605

posted 03 July 2007 10:18 AM      Profile for EmmaG        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Easy. You say, "We demand that you carry our stupid buttons. If you don't, we're going to organize a boycott against you."

Just because you make a demand doesn't mean it will be met. But it's still a demand.


And they have every right to organize a boycott if they want, as babble book lounge is doing until/unless chapter/indigo meets rabble's demands in regards to its choice of charity fundraising.


From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 03 July 2007 10:22 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Easy. You say, "We demand that you carry our stupid buttons. If you don't, we're going to organize a boycott against you."

Just because you make a demand doesn't mean it will be met. But it's still a demand.


BTW who said a boycott would be launched? And yes anyone can make demands and "anyone" usually does. So what made this demand so onerous?

From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 03 July 2007 11:49 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by EmmaG:

And they have every right to organize a boycott if they want, as babble book lounge is doing until/unless chapter/indigo meets rabble's demands in regards to its choice of charity fundraising.


I didn't say they didn't have every right. Please read what I was responding to. Someone asked me how it would even be POSSIBLE to demand anything of the Women's Bookstore. I responded with how it is possible.

Of course it is their RIGHT to make such demands and launch boycotts. And it is my right to disagree with such an action and say so if I think their cause is unjust.

Who said anything about "rights" before you came along? What strawperson are you fighting today?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Max Bialystock
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posted 03 July 2007 11:54 AM      Profile for Max Bialystock     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Michelle, I too like the Woman's Bookstore

You do?


From: North York | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 03 July 2007 06:13 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Max, you can be so obtuse
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 03 July 2007 06:23 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought he was rather a cute.
From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
CharlotteAshley
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posted 04 July 2007 03:54 AM      Profile for CharlotteAshley   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I'm going to make an effort to buy only from indies. I haven't heard of the two you mentioned. Are they in Toronto?

Nicholas Hoare is a beautiful shop on Front Street, just west of the St. Lawrence Market. They carry everything, but I find they have especially good selections of history and politics.

The Sleuth of Baker St. is a shop which (surprise!) specializes in mystery books. They are world-reknown, extremely good at what they do. I haven't been there in a while, but afaik they carry new & used titles. They're on Bayview Ave.,

The thread below, of indy book stores, has got a pretty decent list of what Toronto has on offer!

Charlotte


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
sourrazz
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posted 04 July 2007 02:59 PM      Profile for sourrazz        Edit/Delete Post
I'm curious whether you're going to propose a boycott of Mt. Sinai Hospital's Emergency Room next, since that's also supported by Riesman/Schwartz funds.
From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 July 2007 03:26 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sourrazz:
I'm curious whether you're going to propose a boycott of Mt. Sinai Hospital's Emergency Room next, since that's also supported by Riesman/Schwartz funds.

Unlike Chapters/Indigo, the Mt. Sinai ER doesn't generate any revenue for Riesman/Schwarts thus using it does not result in funds being made available for them to donate to soldiers of a foreign military.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 04 July 2007 05:11 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sourrazz:
I'm curious whether you're going to propose a boycott of Mt. Sinai Hospital's Emergency Room next, since that's also supported by Riesman/Schwartz funds.

I recommend only boycotting that part of the ER that was paid for by Reisman and Chapters.


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 04 July 2007 06:10 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Unlike Chapters/Indigo, the Mt. Sinai ER doesn't generate any revenue for Riesman/Schwarts thus using it does not result in funds being made available for them to donate to soldiers of a foreign military.


What a hypocritical position.

Well no more going to movies then either since Onyx (Gerry Schwartz) owns ciniplex and galaxy theatres.

Oh yes and let's not forget Eastman Kodak's medical imaging unit, now owned by Onyx as well. This would mean boycotting any MRIs by this company that might image clots and tumors.


Or are there excuses for these as well?

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 04 July 2007: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 04 July 2007 07:02 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There are plenty of excuses for everything. Why I have read many, many excuses for a racist occupation and brutality, including a medieval siege, against an entire people for the terrible audacity of being in their own country and not being Jewish! Imagine!

I bought books online today. And my excuse for not buying them at Chapters is provided by the initial post in this thread.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 05 July 2007 03:04 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
That's really good FM but is no real answer to my question. If you are not going to be a hypocrate then why would you not boycott the Eastman Kodak imaging units? And do you plan to stop attending any cinemas owned by Onyx?
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
EmmaG
rabble-rouser
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posted 05 July 2007 06:03 AM      Profile for EmmaG        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I didn't say they didn't have every right. Please read what I was responding to. Someone asked me how it would even be POSSIBLE to demand anything of the Women's Bookstore. I responded with how it is possible.

Of course it is their RIGHT to make such demands and launch boycotts. And it is my right to disagree with such an action and say so if I think their cause is unjust.

Who said anything about "rights" before you came along? What strawperson are you fighting today?



Sorry, I had misread the context in which the term "demand" was being used.


From: nova scotia | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 05 July 2007 06:15 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Given the Wal-Mart like predatory business practices of Chapters the boycott is a no-brainer anyway. Chapters has successfully destroyed many small publishing companies in Canada - precisely the kind of companies that would publish the sort of thing that rabble would support.

As an example, Chapters has in the past bought up most of the copies of particular books, preventing smaller sellers from getting any copies, and then returned the bulk of the books to the publishing companies, driving the latter out of business. Chapters has been able to impose the onerous conditions (returns, etc.) in much the same way that Lowlaws used to swallow up small manufacturing companies by insisting on an exclusive arrangement and then forcibly "re-negotiating" the price from a position of strength down the road.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Continually sleepy
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posted 05 July 2007 09:00 AM      Profile for Continually sleepy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The IDF has been found responsible by human-rights groups and Israeli courts for countless rights violations in the West Bank and Gaza including the unlawful killing, arbitrary detention, torture and assault of hundreds of Palestinians.

Hi friends,

I am a little worried that by launching a boycott solely against an organization that supports the IDF, you are implicitly condoning the human rights violations that the IDF try to prevent. While there is no justification for the abuse of the Palestinian people, it is also undeniable that A) rockets are fired into Israel from the Gaza stip with the intent of causing civilian casualties; B) Hamas, Hezbollah, and the government of Iran have called for the destruction of Israel; C) Hezbollah has fired rockets into Israel with the intent of causing civilian casualties; D) Hamas and Hezbollah have engaged in kidnapping as part of their campaigns against Israel.

Regardless of what the IDF does and whether Heather Reisman and Gerry Schwartz provide financial backing of the HESEG Foundation for Lone Soldiers, the fact is that there are certainly crimes committed on both sides. Furthermore, it should be remembered that the IDF not only has the responsibility to prevent Palestinian attacks, but also to guard against the threat from Iran and other neighbouring countries.

As such, I think it would be best if you added some nuance to the statement of the rationale for the boycott. Ignoring one set of crimes to protest another will likely only strengthen the hand of those who wish to oppose the boycott in its entirety. Furthermore, any arguments that the disproptionality of the force used by the IDF justifies the absence of a discussion regarding rights violations by Palestinians has the effect of implying that human rights violations are okay in some circumstances - which is certainly a tenuous approach to take.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 05 July 2007 09:19 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Continually sleepy:
I am a little worried that by launching a boycott solely against an organization that supports the IDF, you are implicitly condoning the human rights violations that the IDF try to prevent.

Well, worry no more. We're not condoning any human rights violations.

I hope that put your mind at rest.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 05 July 2007 09:33 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Continually sleepy:

Hi friends,

I am a little worried that by launching a boycott solely against an organization that supports the IDF, ......- which is certainly a tenuous approach to take.


So first off, Rabble does not condone violence in any form. Virtually everyone here does not condone any missile attacks, or any human rights violations. Your strawman arguement that by boycotting one we support the other isn't going to work here.

Second, go look at the amount of deaths on both sides (anywhere from a 1 to 4 ratio), take a look at the targetted killings that the IDF are involved in, the kidnappings of DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED officials, the repeated destruction of palestinian homes, the murder of peace protesters, the continuous derailing of the peace process, etc etc etc . Sure both sides are bad, but we're already boycotting the palestinians by leaving them in the conditions they're already in, it's time to add the IDF to the list.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 05 July 2007 10:14 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's really good FM but is no real answer to my question. If you are not going to be a hypocrate then why would you not boycott the Eastman Kodak imaging units? And do you plan to stop attending any cinemas owned by Onyx?

But I have never used a Kodak imaging unit and I do boycott Cineplex ever since the projectionists strike way back when. You don't?

Just as a plug, I buy online from these guys: http://www.powells.com/

Great prices on used books and the delivery cost is affordable. I will admit I will miss Chapters a little bit but I found a downtown magazine store with at least as good a selection and an indedent coffee store across the street.

[ 05 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Continually sleepy
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14297

posted 05 July 2007 11:34 AM      Profile for Continually sleepy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:

So first off, Rabble does not condone violence in any form. Virtually everyone here does not condone any missile attacks, or any human rights violations. Your strawman arguement that by boycotting one we support the other isn't going to work here.

Second, go look at the amount of deaths on both sides (anywhere from a 1 to 4 ratio), take a look at the targetted killings that the IDF are involved in, the kidnappings of DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED officials, the repeated destruction of palestinian homes, the murder of peace protesters, the continuous derailing of the peace process, etc etc etc . Sure both sides are bad, but we're already boycotting the palestinians by leaving them in the conditions they're already in, it's time to add the IDF to the list.



Okay, so it seems I touched a nerve. I'll let the strawman remark slide in the hopes that you'll focus more on the ideas I present than name calling. I'm glad that you don't support violence, and didn't think you or any rabble user did. What I was worried about was appearance.

Here's the problem: The boycott targets Chapters because its owners provide support to an organization that provides support to foreign soldiers who serve in the IDF - which is a group that has committed crimes against humanity. However, rather than boycotting the businesses of Heather Reisman and Gerry Schwartz in order to have them pressure the IDF to change its practices, the statement calls for the boycott until they stop supporting anything to do with the IDF. Presumably, the ultimate goal then is not the reform of the IDF, but its cessation as a viable entity.

Unfortunately, the IDF cannot cease to exist. If it stopped existing today, the democratically elected Hamas government might try to make good on its stated objective of destroying Israel. Furthermore, even if the Palestinian question were resolved, Israel still faces threats from Iran and Syria, which again requires the continued operation of the army. And even if the Middle East magically became peaceful and happy, there could still be a rationale for the IDF to exist in the hopes of providing humanitarian and peacekeeping existence abroad.

So, all that to say, the point of the boycott does not appear to be the reform of the IDF, but its end. That objective appears to be based on the idea that Israel does not need to defend itself, and the only way to argue that is if you ignore the past and present actions of some radical Palestinian organizations and those in neighbouring countries. If that was not the objective, than I would suggest adding some more nuance to the boycott statement - perhaps something about asking Reisman and Schwartz to withdraw their support until the IDF's human rights record improves.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 05 July 2007 12:24 PM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:

But I have never used a Kodak imaging unit.

[ 05 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]



Well I hope to God you never do because then you will have a real choice to make not something as airy fairy as not buying a book.

And continually Sleepy, your comments are I believe well intended and I support them. I think though you will find that Babble will do nothing that in any way supports or gives credence to the Jewish state of Israel.

[ 05 July 2007: Message edited by: Petsy ]


From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 05 July 2007 01:04 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:

Babble will do nothing that in any way supports or gives credence to the Jewish state of Israel.

probably because people here tend to not support Radicalized religious governments.

Most Babblers (Not all as I was corrected a while back) support the state of Israel, we just don't support it's actions in the west bank and gaza, Sanai, the Golan heights, and Southern Lebanon.

Continually Sleepy's comments are filled with half truths and one sides arguements that seem to indicate that Israel is this poor little nation constantly under threat by it's neighbours. I'm certainly not going to defend the more radical of the middle east, and I would certainly hope you wouldn't try to defend some of the Israeli's extremist views, as there have been some in the government advocating the 'removal' of the palestinians from Greater Israel, however none of the countries in the middle east have a chance in hell of defeating the Israeli army, and the IDF's actions have been far more confrontational than the places you mentioned.

Israel has the right to defend itself as does everyone, which is WHY the Palestinians have a RIGHT to defend their land as the Israeli government pushed the settlements further and further into former Palestinian territory.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Continually sleepy
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14297

posted 05 July 2007 02:46 PM      Profile for Continually sleepy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:

Continually Sleepy's comments are filled with half truths and one sides arguements that seem to indicate that Israel is this poor little nation constantly under threat by it's neighbours. I'm certainly not going to defend the more radical of the middle east, and I would certainly hope you wouldn't try to defend some of the Israeli's extremist views, as there have been some in the government advocating the 'removal' of the palestinians from Greater Israel, however none of the countries in the middle east have a chance in hell of defeating the Israeli army, and the IDF's actions have been far more confrontational than the places you mentioned.

Israel has the right to defend itself as does everyone, which is WHY the Palestinians have a RIGHT to defend their land as the Israeli government pushed the settlements further and further into former Palestinian territory.


Thanks goes to quelar for giving me the benefit of the doubt in his comments above as I don't support many of the actions of Israel or the IDF. However, I must take issue with some of his comments.

My comments were one sided because that's what I feel the boycott statement is. I was hoping to point out the Israeli side of the argument in the hopes of bringing a little more balance to the statement, which I found presented the IDF as conducting its crimes without any violence being conducted on the other side. While it may not be poor, Israel is under close to continual threat. Now there may not be a danger of imminent attack, but with people like the Iranian President calling for the country's destruction, I'd be a little worried if I lived there. Also, my point was not whether Israel could defeat its enemies. My point was that it has enemies, and so is justified in keeping an army. What it should do is have that army act in a more humane way.

I also must take objection with your statement that Israel has been the aggressor. In recent years, Israel has unilaterally withdrawn from the Gaza stip and Lebannon. Their reward? Rocket attacks from both. Furthermore, last summer's conflict with Lebannon was started when Hezbollah seized an Israeli soldier. Did Israel respond with disproporionate force? Yes. Did Israel cause civilian casualties? Yes. But so did Hezbollah - both by shooting rockets into Israel and by locating its rocket launchers in civilian areas, making it very difficult for Israel to defend itself without causing civilian suffering.

Finally, I would urge you to be more precise in your statement about Palestinians having the right to defend themselves against Israeli incursions. As mentioned above, the Hamas responded to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza by stepping up its rocket attacks against Israel - which certainly is not self defence, but rather the targeting of civilians. Yes, Israel has acted in bad faith by trying to expand its territory with the West Bank wall and settlement expansions. But the story is not one sided. Secondly, there is the question of what kind of defence you are supporting. Since earlier you stated that you oppose all kinds of violence, I'm not quite sure what kind of defence you are making reference to.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 July 2007 04:31 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
What a hypocritical position.

Well no more going to movies then either since Onyx (Gerry Schwartz) owns ciniplex and galaxy theatres.

Oh yes and let's not forget Eastman Kodak's medical imaging unit, now owned by Onyx as well. This would mean boycotting any MRIs by this company that might image clots and tumors.

Or are there excuses for these as well?


It's called being tactical, being realistic and selecting a viable target in order to make a point and make an impact. A boycott that is overly broad will fail - one that selects a single target among many is more likely to have an impact. Of course, you already know this ohara but you've never let facts stand in the way of rhetoric. At least you haven't gone as far as the fanatics at Bnai Brith who've misleadingly suggested that the Chapters/Indigo boycott is targetting Reisman because she's Jewish rather than because of her role in Heseg (are you going to pass off this opportunity to bash Bnai Brith? It's your second favourite sport after bashing ACJC).


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 05 July 2007 04:34 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Besides, Chapters/Indigo is already struggling under Reisman's mismanagement so a boycott of them is more likely to have an effect. As well, if Chapters/Indigo goes under there would be a real social benefit in that it would give independent bookstores and smaller chains that have been hounded out of business or to the edge of bankruptcy a chance to revive.

Boycotting Chapters/Indigo is a no-brainer really.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 05 July 2007 06:33 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well I hope to God you never do because then you will have a real choice to make not something as airy fairy as not buying a book.


Thank you for caring about my health.

quote:

And continually Sleepy, your comments are I believe well intended and I support them. I think though you will find that Babble will do nothing that in any way supports or gives credence to the Jewish state of Israel.


No doubt you sympathize with a sympathizer. But why would you want the Jewish state, as you called it, to be such a racist, brutal, regime so committed to hate and war against civilians who just happen to not be Jewish?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Petsy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12553

posted 06 July 2007 10:00 AM      Profile for Petsy        Edit/Delete Post
If it were, that would be a huge problem. Thankfully it is not though it has to deal with neighboring states who routinely deny women their rights, summarily murder gays and lesbians, do not permit Jews their civil rights, denigrate Christians. Indeed it is a tough neighborhood.
From: Toronto | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 06 July 2007 10:03 AM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel does not 'deal with ' those issues petsy, thats jsut crap.

Those states might have those problems, but they do not affect Israel nor does Israel ever attempt to deal with them. They should , however, deal with their own stripping for civil rights for those people within their borders that they consider 'sub human' apparently


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 July 2007 10:56 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
If it were, that would be a huge problem. Thankfully it is not though it has to deal with neighboring states who routinely deny women their rights, summarily murder gays and lesbians, do not permit Jews their civil rights, denigrate Christians. Indeed it is a tough neighborhood.

Petsy, if you were to learn that the owner of a retail chain offers scholarships to Syrian soldiers would you boycott and encourage others to do so?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 06 July 2007 11:20 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If it were, that would be a huge problem. Thankfully it is not though it has to deal with neighboring states who routinely deny women their rights, summarily murder gays and lesbians, do not permit Jews their civil rights, denigrate Christians. Indeed it is a tough neighborhood.

See some people think it is difficult to rationalize racism and murder. It isn't. You just use racism to rationalize murder. Easy!

I remember the KKK and lynch mobs would routinely accuse black men of rape and petty crimes to justify their racist brutality. Different region but the song remains the same. Thanks for reminding me why the boycott is so important.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 06 July 2007 12:52 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Continually sleepy:

Since earlier you stated that you oppose all kinds of violence, I'm not quite sure what kind of defence you are making reference to.

So here we can get into a circular arguement about whether the rockcet attacks came first, or whether the leveling of Palestinian houses, encroachment of settlements and racist government policies came first. Both side are to be abhored and condemned.

The difference here is that Israel is in a far better position to stop their actions as a democratic structured government. The palestinians as shown recently, don't have a single point of control over their territory and people and are in a far more difficult place to stop the rockets that small fanatic groups build.

If someone has a good idea how to stop small bands of people, I'm all for it, but asking a government to start abiding by UN resolutions tends to be a lot easier.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
LDW
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11844

posted 14 July 2007 11:00 AM      Profile for LDW        Edit/Delete Post
So, Rabble is boycotting Chapters-Indigo because the owners contribute to a fund that “provides scholarships to former “lone soldiers” of the Israeli Defence Forces”. Makes sense to me. Why bother helping these young men (and women, too, I suppose) get an education and perhaps learn to think differently about the world? After all, any young person joining the Israeli army is obviously a lost to the Dark Side, and offering them help to get an education is tantamount to joining forces with evil, no? And look at the poor Palestinians. With half a century and a gazillion dollars, you can’t really expect them to have built a functioning social infrastructure! Of course there are shortages of everything there, except guns and explosives. First things first, after all. And, of course they needed to turn their universities into terrorist training camps – what else would they do with them? Now, if those Israelis would just let them have their way, then everything would be hunky-dory. Fatah and Hamas would kiss and make up and the anti-Semitic textbooks would disappear from Palestinian classrooms.

I really think you’ve got a fantastic idea here. Your only problem, really, is that you are thinking too small. Why not get something going on a larger political scale? Maybe a UN resolution against Chapters? We can’t have anyone educating former Israeli soldiers, for God’s sake! Why, this could lead to “directly supporting the morale of the IDF”.Horrors!

True, your campaign could lead to ‘directly supporting the morale of terrorists”, bigots and anti-Semites everywhere, but that’s surely a small price to pay in order to keep those former soldiers out of school.


From: Quebec | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 11:10 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDW:
And look at the poor Palestinians. With half a century and a gazillion dollars, you can’t really expect them to have built a functioning social infrastructure!

The only way my people have survived for so long is by learning to live with all other peoples, respecting them, sharing weal and woe with them, sympathizing with and supporting their struggles.

Your comments about the Palestinian people shows quite clearly either your anti-human upbringing, or (more likely) the mess you have made of your own brain and feelings all by yourself.

Either cure yourself of these racist feelings, or take your ravings elsewhere. This is not a toxic waste dump.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 11:31 AM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

Petsy, if you were to learn that the owner of a retail chain offers scholarships to Syrian soldiers would you boycott and encourage others to do so?


Heather and Garry are strong, proud Jews who are helping former IDF soldiers get an education. There is nothing wrong with that.

This boycott is like the proposed academic boycott of Israel by the UK universities. It smacks of anti-semitism.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
LDW
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11844

posted 14 July 2007 11:40 AM      Profile for LDW        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

The only way my people have survived for so long is by learning to live with all other peoples, respecting them, sharing weal and woe with them, sympathizing with and supporting their struggles.

Your comments about the Palestinian people shows quite clearly either your anti-human upbringing, or (more likely) the mess you have made of your own brain and feelings all by yourself.

Either cure yourself of these racist feelings, or take your ravings elsewhere. This is not a toxic waste dump.


To Unionist – Right on! Right on! Couldn’t have said it better myself! The Palestinians are Powerless Victims! True, they may support the odd suicide bomber or rocket attack and they educate their children to hate but that’s not their fault, surely! Anyone can see that there is absolutely nothing the Palestinian leadership could possibly ever have done to set up a functioning societal infrastructure, with schools and hospitals. If the corrupt leadership couldn’t dole out social services as favours to their supporters, how could anyone ever expect them to hold onto power? And the Palestinians have always been ready to “share weal and woe”…of course, by weal, they mean ‘A ridge on the flesh raised by a blow; a welt’ and not ‘Prosperity and happiness’ but at least they’re sharing, right?

But getting back to the main topic, an important step that we in the West can take towards making a better world is to boycott anyone who dares to try and offer education to former Israeli soldiers. I mean, we have to put our collective feet down somewhere!


From: Quebec | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Khimia
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11641

posted 14 July 2007 11:45 AM      Profile for Khimia     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It certainly does Moishe.
From: Burlington | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 July 2007 11:51 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good lord. Did our site suddenly pop up on some megaphone software today or what?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 01:25 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:

Heather and Garry are strong, proud Jews who are helping former IDF soldiers get an education.


"Strong, proud Jews"?

First of all, Jews are reputed to have a little bit of seykhel. If Heather and Garry had any seykhel, they would provide these pathetic idiots with an education before they volunteered to go kill Palestinians - not after!

What kind of Jews are they who can't figure out that much!?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 01:50 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Good lord. Did our site suddenly pop up on some megaphone software today or what?

You seem surprised that people here would support Israel. Why?


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 14 July 2007 02:35 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Petsy:
Babble will do nothing that in any way supports or gives credence to the Jewish state of Israel.

That's just wrong. "Babble" is a discussion forum, and is all of us.

As to why the rabble book lounge is boycotting Chapters/Indigo, that's a valid topic for debate, and is being debated.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 03:21 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

before they volunteered to go kill Palestinians - not after!


Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.

These are the people you would deny an education.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 14 July 2007 03:37 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:

Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.

These are the people you would deny an education.


Why should Canadian taxpayers subsidize the education of Israeli soldiers? (Heseg is a registered charity in Canada meaning donations to it are tax-deductible)


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 14 July 2007 05:13 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Read it here.

And here: Find out about the International Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Campaign here:
quote:
These non-violent punitive measures should be maintained until Israel meets its obligation to recognize the Palestinian people's inalienable right to self-determination and fully complies with the precepts of international law by:

1. Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall;
2. Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality;



I see that, although I have my doubts about academic boycotts.
quote:
and
3. Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN resolution 194.

Is rabble seriously supporting "broad boycotts and implement divestment initiatives against Israel similar to those applied to South Africa in the apartheid era" until Israel implements a right of return that no one believes will happen? I think Hindus are more likely to return to Pakistan first.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 06:11 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:

Now you are being ignorant. They were draftees, not volunteers. National military service is compulsory for Jewish and Druze men and Jewish women over the age of 18. Men serve three years in the IDF, while women serve two, sometimes less.

These are the people you would deny an education.


You really don't know what Heseg is - or you just want to fool people - which one?

Heather and Gerry's website is different in Hebrew and English. I would imagine, from your "name", and your story about being "a Kibbutzim", that you don't speak a word of Hebrew, so let me enlighten you.

Here is what it says (I hope the orthography works ok):

quote:
קרן "הישג" היא קרן מלגות לחיילים בודדים משוחררים.

"Hayalim bod'dim" means Lone Soldiers.

These are foreign recruits - volunteers - who have no family in Israel. Read about them in English, if that's the only language you can understand.

Amazingly, the English version of the same website speaks only of "former soldiers" - it does not use the term "lone soldiers"!!.

So someone who can't read the Hebrew original might actually think that these lucky scholarship recipients are Israelis - maybe even conscripts. They are not - by receiving money from these billionaires, they become mercenaries.

Nu, "Moshe", vus macht a yid?


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 06:21 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

"Hayalim bod'dim" means Lone Soldiers.

These are foreign recruits - volunteers - who have no family in Israel. Read about them in English,


You are so wrong my friend.

They are Jews who have an inalienable right to return to Israel, and out of love and caring for Israel they do so. But once they do return to Israel they are subject to National Service.

Get it, my friend? Once a Jew returns to Israel, he or she must participate in National Service, provided they meet the religious and age requirements. Is that clear?

Once their service is complete they may go on to other things, and an education will help them greatly. An education provided in part by Heather and Gerry.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 06:37 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you admit they are all foreigners who voluntarily come to Israel to serve in the army. Before you claimed they were "conscripts". But no one conscripted them to go to Israel.

These are thugs - people seeking thrills and violence. One hundred years ago, even 60 years ago, one could have imagined youthful misguided idealists. But in the 21st century?

They are war criminals. And because they are all volunteers, they cannot even repeat that man's infamous excuse (yi'mach sh'mo v'zichro) - "I was just following orders".

ETA: By the way, has anyone else noticed that the Heather and Gerry Show have deleted the term "Lone Soldiers" from the English version of their website? This is amazing - they must be reacting to the boycott and trying to deceive international audiences - just like our muddled friend Mr. Feinstein is trying to do, so far having to eat his words every time he utters anything.

[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
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posted 14 July 2007 07:03 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
These are thugs - people seeking thrills and violence. One hundred years ago, even 60 years ago, one could have imagined youthful misguided idealists. But in the 21st century?

They are war criminals. And because they are all volunteers, they cannot even repeat that man's infamous excuse (yi'mach sh'mo v'zichro) - "I was just following orders".


So, in your world view, Jews who exercise the Right of Return are thugs and war criminals? What bullsh*t you spew!

You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first. What part of this do you not understand?


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 July 2007 07:08 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All Jews are Israeli? Isn't that, like, anti-semitic? What if a Jew doesn't want to be Israeli? Does he or she have a choice in your world? Can an Arab be an Israeli?

[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
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posted 14 July 2007 07:24 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
All Jews are Israeli?

Absolutely not.

Did you know that there are some Jews, in Israel, who do not believe that Israel should exist at all? It is true. They believe that no state will ever be as powerful as G*d when it comes to protecting the Jews, and that having a state of Israel is therefore an afront to G*d himself. They wish to place the fate of the Jews, and Israel, entirely in the hands of G*d.

Now, not very many Jews in Israel or elsewhere agree with this strategy, however it does make sense. If you believe that G*d wants Israel to survive, why bother with a state at all? G*d will smite the enemies and all that.

But no one takes them very seriously.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 July 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:

You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first. What part of this do you not understand?

Parts I don't understand:

Why you don't believe Jews can be at home in Canada or other countries.

Why you yourself have never gone "home" to Israel.

Why you lied about Heseg being for "conscripts". Why you danced and pranced when your lie was exposed. Come to think of it, why the Schwartz/Reisman billionaire duo is now trying out the same lie as you.

Why you thought no one on this board could read Hebrew.

Why you yourself can't read Hebrew (some "Jew" you are!).

And finally: What you are doing on this board, other than being a (singularly unsuccessful) provocateur.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 July 2007 07:31 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whew! Gee, I was worried about that. What about this:

quote:
They are Jews who have an inalienable right to return to Israel

So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
bookseller2321
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posted 14 July 2007 08:16 PM      Profile for bookseller2321        Edit/Delete Post
Chapters & Indigo stores do not raise funds for HESEG (HESEG is a foundation set up for educational scolarships to FORMER soldiers), it has absolutely nothing to with the bookstores or the employees of this company. What you're talking about is a wealthy successful couple in Toronto, who have chosen to spend their hard earned money to support a cause that some disagree with. Having been fortunate enough to be born and raised in a democracy, I actually don't see the problem, for though I don't agree with their apparent political views, I respect their right to have them (don't forget, there are financial supporters on both sides of this conflict ). Should you be denied the right to donate YOUR hard earned money the way you see fit? I've seen signs in Toronto that say "END ISRAELI APPARTEID" and protesters wearing Palestinian scarves, well, quite obviously they are biased towards the Palestinian side of the struggle, has anyone followed them home to protest their right to their opinions/beliefs? And last I checked, this is not a new situation, Reisman and Schwartz are not directly responsible for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Nor do I think a University fund is going to add to the atrocities that have already been committed on both sides, perhaps the newly educated recipients of this fund will help resolve the issues that plague the middle east.
Oh and you're right OHARA! Mt. Sinai's emergency room does not generate revenue for Reisman/Schwartz so feel free to enjoy the medical care provided there should you need it. Onyx and Indigo generate funds, which allows them to PERSONALLY/PRIVATELY (as with HESEG) support the hospital, breast cancer research and numerous other worthy causes.
So what does the company actually support? Has anyone heard of the Indigo Love of Reading fund? In three years Chapters, Indigo, and Coles have managed to raise 4.5 million dollars for Canadian school's that were in desperate need of books and learning materials. The lives of the children and teachers of these schools have dramatically altered for the better as a result!

If you hadn't guessed by my name, I work in one of Heather Reisman's bookstores and am proud to be an Indigo employee. I'm saddened that people would rather spend their time standing outside a bookstore (which as far as I have witnessed, has only angered the majority of the people approached by protesters AGAINST this boycott) and reinforcing the disunity than in seeking a means to resolve a situation abhorred by all.


From: ontario | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
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posted 14 July 2007 08:23 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

Parts I don't understand:


And never will...


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
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Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 08:35 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?

Well, in order to be considered a Jew in the eyes of G*d, many things must have taken place. Here is a long description of who is considered to be Jewish. It is very accurate.

Wikipedia

Now, to answer your question. Yes, any Jew has the right to return to Israel at any time and live there for the rest of his or her life, should he or she choose to do so. Even a Jew raised by Athiests, provided that the articles of faith had been adhered to.

As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 08:44 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:

You go on and on about how they are 'foreigners'. No, they are Jews who have returned home. Home to Israel. They are and will always be Jews first.

Why don't you go "home", Feinstein?

Don't feel like being a "Jew first"?

What comes first in your book?

Fear of the draft?

The biggest Zionist hypocrites have always been the foreigners, who raise money and egg on the Israeli youth to do their fighting for them.

Oh, sorry, Heather and Gerry. I don't mean you! You wouldn't raise blood money to encourage young people to lay down their lives in unjust wars! Naw, you're nice nice people! You're just buying books for Afghan Canadian schools which are in desperate need of supplies, according to the rather bizarre account of your alleged loyal employee above.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Moshe Feinstein
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Babbler # 14325

posted 14 July 2007 08:49 PM      Profile for Moshe Feinstein     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:



Yawn...


From: Manitoba | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 14 July 2007 08:59 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Moshe Feinstein:
Yawn...

Tired already? You just joined babble. My people have been fighting for their survival for thousands of years. We don't get tired.

You said Jews' "home" is in Isr**l. What the H*LL are you doing in M*nit*ba? Hitchhiking to Isr**l?

No wonder you're tired.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 14 July 2007 09:09 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, Uni*nist, you are being a naughty boy.
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 July 2007 09:12 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
Oh, Uni*nist, you are being a naughty boy.

I am naught.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 14 July 2007 09:29 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by bookseller2321:
Chapters & Indigo stores do not raise funds for HESEG

True, they raise money for Heather Reisman, the principal founder and funder of HESEG. Or are you suggesting that Reisman runs Chapters/Indigo as some sort of non-profit and doesn't derive any income from it?

quote:
Should you be denied the right to donate YOUR hard earned money the way you see fit?

Works both ways. We have the right *not* to spend our money as we see fit. If people choose not to shop at Chapters/Indigo because of what its owner does with the money she earns from our patronage then what's wrong with that?

[ 14 July 2007: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 July 2007 10:44 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moshe, what I derive from Jewish history is the belief that one should fight against all oppression, racism and xenophobia and for the equality of all. There's a very proud history of Jews joining, and in many case leading, broad struggles fighting for against injustices far beyond the Jewish community and for the liberation of all.

I think it's tragic when some fail to take these lessons and instead try to replicate the very forms of oppression that Jews have fought so hard against; using the very means that have oppressed Jews for so long and turning them against other populations.

I don't see how any person of good conscious who believes in human rights can think that someone whose family has not lived in Israel for 2000 years has the right to return there while someone else who was born there and fled as a child; or whose parents or grandparents were born there, does not have that same right. How can that sort of contradiction possibly be justified in the context of universal human rights?


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
LDW
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11844

posted 14 July 2007 10:56 PM      Profile for LDW        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Whew! Gee, I was worried about that. What about this:

So, a Jew, born and raised in Toronto, by atheists, can return to Israel and have citizenship? Boy, that is generous. What about a Palestinian who fled Israeli during the Nakba. That person would have an inalienable right to return to Israel, too, right?


Israel was created to make a place for people who had nowhere to go. After the war of 1948, about 500,000 Arabs were displaced from Israel and about 900,000 Jews were displaced from surrounding Middle Eastern countries, where they had lived for centuries. Israel took in every Jewish refugee who asked and gave them citizenship. The surrounding Middle Eastern countries, who started the war, took in no one. They left the displaced people in refugee camps. Those who remained in Gaza and the West Bank have now grown in number to about 4 million, and the entire 'Palestinian' population world-wide numbers approximately 10 million. The Jewish religion is older than the Muslim religion, and Jews have lived continuously in the Middle East for over a thousand years. But the only country that they can now call home is the tiny strip of land created to be modern-day Israel.
I say that when the surrounding Middle Eastern countries return the lands and property they stole from the Jews, and when they let Jews return to their ancient homelands and be given full rights of citizenship and be allowed to live freely and without fear, that perhaps Israel could become a bit more sanguine about having larger numbers of Arabs living as citizens within their borders,
The Palestinians, to date, and most of the Middle Eastern countries surrounding Israel have done little to foster peace, and have despicable domestic records concerning human rights.

And, to Unionist – It’s probably a bit complicated for you to understand, but you see, Israel has mandatory military service for all men and women (Arab citizens are not obliged to serve) and so any young adult returning to live in Israel knows they will have to do their mandatory military service. They volunteer to go to Israel, but are conscripted into the army once they become residents. It is possible to view them as both volunteers and conscripts, because they do the original, voluntary act of moving to Israel, knowing it will lead to their conscription.

Also to Unionist – the bookstore employee who wrote a post said absolutely nothing ‘bizarre’. You, on the other hand make irrelevant comments and hurl insults instead of making cohesive arguments. You say your people have been fighting for their survival for thousands of years and you don’t get tired. Too bad – because you are certainly tiresome in a nasty, puerile, illogical sort of way.


From: Quebec | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 14 July 2007 11:21 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The solution to the fear of persecution is to fight for proper refugee laws so that Jews who fear being persecuted can come to Canada or the United States or Europe. Instead, we saw in the 80s various North American Jewish and Zionist organizations lobbying North American governments to deny Soviet Jews refugee status so that they would have no choice but to go to Israel!
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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Babbler # 8312

posted 15 July 2007 06:04 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.

Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state. Certainly in Europe one nation attempted to create a racially pure state with terrible consequences.

quote:
Israel was created to make a place for people who had nowhere to go

Well, that is perfect. Because Palestinians, as you have aptly indicated, have nowhere to go. So they can go home to Israel. See, everything works out.

[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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Babbler # 9972

posted 15 July 2007 06:13 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for Palestinians displaced by conflict, that is a great controversy in Israel. Should they all return to Israel, along with their descendants, Israel would lose its Jewish majority. This may not seem to be very important in the West, but for Jews it would be very hard to bear.

quote:
Originally posted by Frustrated Mess:
Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state. Certainly in Europe one nation attempted to create a racially pure state with terrible consequences.

But isn't this the same model as First Nations, membership (or citizenship) based on racial background?

[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Sven ]


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 15 July 2007 06:26 AM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, yes. And currently Israel is attempting to push Palestinians into ghettos not unlike the marginal lands first nations were pushed into. Or to push them out all together. Some even advocate genocidal policies: According to Jewish war ethics, wrote Eliyahu, an entire city holds collective responsibility for the immoral behavior of individuals. In Gaza, the entire populace is responsible because they do nothing to stop the firing of Kassam rockets.
From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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Babbler # 9972

posted 15 July 2007 06:43 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, what are you saying, FM? Is race-based citizenship of a nation okay as long as the nation doesn't otherwise behave badly?
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 15 July 2007 06:52 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I think the "Jewish" state of Israel will ultimately cease to exist. Demographically, non-Jews will eventually outnumber Jews (unless, prior to that time, Israel implements very rigid standards for Israeli membership that requires a citizen to be a Jew).
From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 15 July 2007 07:12 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by LDW:

They volunteer to go to Israel, but are conscripted into the army once they become residents. It is possible to view them as both volunteers and conscripts, because they do the original, voluntary act of moving to Israel, knowing it will lead to their conscription.

That is sophistry. They go to Israel for the sole purpose of performing military service right away. Here is your "logic" in another form:

I signed up voluntarily to join "Soldiers of Fortune". Once in, I had no choice but to go where they sent me and follow orders to the letter. So you see, I can be viewed both as a mercenary and as a conscript.

quote:
Also to Unionist – the bookstore employee who wrote a post said absolutely nothing ‘bizarre’.

Oh really? In a debate as to whether it is good to finance Canadian youth who volunteer to go fight for the IDF, this "bookstore employee" says:

quote:
In three years Chapters, Indigo, and Coles have managed to raise 4.5 million dollars for Canadian school's that were in desperate need of books and learning materials. The lives of the children and teachers of these schools have dramatically altered for the better as a result!

S/he's not talking about Sierra Leone or Afghanistan here, but Canada, where the last time I checked we had publicly funded universal K-12 education.

Perhaps "bizarre" is not the right word. This tangential diversion into Indigo's "charitable" endeavours was naive - gullible - suckholing one's employer? Please feel free to choose a more appropriate adjective.

quote:
you are certainly tiresome in a nasty, puerile, illogical sort of way.

I restrict my comments to the things people say, rather than characterizing the people. I challenge defenders of faiths to justify themselves. That's why I spent a lot of time dismantling the lie that Heseg was a scholarship fund for former Israeli soldiers (it isn't - it's for foreigners who volunteer for the IDF only).

That's also why I challenge you, and other obvious defenders of this activity, to explain why Heather and Gerry have changed their English website in a way that can actually fool people like Mr. Feinstein into believing that Heseg isn't just for mercenaries. Read the Hebrew, and please explain the contradiction.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
bookseller2321
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14321

posted 15 July 2007 07:17 AM      Profile for bookseller2321        Edit/Delete Post
Of course Chapters Indigo is not a non-profit organisation! What I'm saying is that Chapters has thousands of employees, who work hard for their wages every day, and there is not a single thing that we do in our daily work that has anything to do with HESEG. So when you're out in front of the stores screaming about injustice and tellig customers how evil we are, you're not protesting the bookstores, you're ultimately protesting Heather's inalienable right to spend her money as she chooses. (I would like to restate the fact that HESEG is a university fund!!! It does NOT buy guns, promote violence or destroy small canadian publishers!)

You ABSOLUTELY have the right NOT to spend your money where you choose, what I take issue with is a protest where protesters are misinforming the public, where customers are told how THEY should be spending their money and are leaving the stores and being harrassed ( -a constant complaint from their own mouths ....which btw has only made them more loyal).

Hypothetically, if a kid who works at MacDonalds sends a couple of bucks to HESEG a month would you be out protesting MacDonalds? That's where he earns his money and makes the same choice Heather does, of course you wouldn't because it would have nothing to do wih MacDonalds how this kid spends his money!
And not to seem slow or anything, but it was brought up earlier that Gerry, being Heather's husband and also someone who donates to HESEG hasn't had to comment on protests outside of movie theatres.....I'm guessing there's too many summer blockbusters to see so Gerry's movie business can't be protested at the moment eh?


From: ontario | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 July 2007 07:24 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

But isn't this the same model as First Nations, membership (or citizenship) based on racial background?


The same model would be if the colonizers of the Americas set up a state with citizenship based on racial or ethnic background.

The difference with the First Nations is the question of self-determination and oppression. If they wish to have a racially exclusive model on their own land, that is their choice (I think it's a lousy one, but I understand it, and most importantly, it's not my business to interfere). If, however, they deprive other races or ethnicities of their inherent human rights, they lose their own.

Likewise with Israel. The majority of the state currently constituted as Israel chooses to have a Basic Law founded in the religio-ethno-cultural form loosely known as Judaism. That is their right. Likewise, it is my right as a human being (and, secondarily, as a Jew) to publicly state my opinion that that model is offensive and repugnant to enlightened human culture.

However, when Israel deprives some of its residents (forget about the Occupation and wars of aggression for the moment) of equality, of human rights, of the right of refugees to return, of the right to social and civil ceremonies that are not religious-based, etc. - then Israel must be condemned. And it is condemned, by the international community.

Does that mean the international community would be justified in marching into Israel (if they were so inclined) and bringing about "regime change", to "free" the people from Zionist tyranny? Absolutely not. That is the prerogative of freedom-loving nations like the U.S., U.K., Canada, the former Soviet Union, etc. Stopping aggression and occupation - yes. Overthrowing regimes that treat people like shit - the people have to do that themselves.

Boycotts, embargoes, diplomatic measures? By all means, where and when warranted.

[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9972

posted 15 July 2007 07:28 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:
If they wish to have a racially exclusive model on their own land, that is their choice (I think it's a lousy one, but I understand it, and most importantly, it's not my business to interfere).

Why do you think it's a "lousy" one?


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 15 July 2007 07:32 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, no, I can understand that. Many whites feel exactly the same way in the West. They want to establish a separate white state. Sort of like a separate Jewish state.
This comparision of a Jewish state to white supremacism should be unacceptable here on Babble. There may be some passionate disagreements on Israel but when you cross this line moderators MUST intervene. What is happening here??

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 15 July 2007 07:40 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

Why do you think it's a "lousy" one?


It's the subject of another thread. I believe people should all intermarry as fast as possible and abandon any differences which divide them rather than enrich them. Just a personal little hangup of mine. But I certainly respect those who feel that they should stick with "their own". I just don't share their feeling.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 July 2007 07:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now look what you guys have done. You've made ohara wring his hands and ask with a plaintive cry for the umpteenth time what is happening on babble. This is a truly tragic turn of events.

Clearly it is time for the moderator to step in and close the thread for length, out of respect for ohara's deep agony.

[ 15 July 2007: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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