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Author Topic: Florida Student killed By SWAT Team Had Pellet Gun
Maritimesea
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posted 13 January 2006 05:56 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
LONGWOOD, Fla. -- The handgun that a Florida eighth-grader was holding when he was shot by a SWAT team member turned out to be a pellet gun.

"(Deputies) pleaded with him to drop what looked like a 9 mm Beretta handgun," Seminole County Sheriff Donald Eslinger said. "It was actually a pellet gun modified to look like a real gun."

The 15-year-old boy is at a hospital, but officials haven't revealed his condition.

Full Story

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Maritimesea ]


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
nuclearfreezone
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posted 13 January 2006 07:50 PM      Profile for nuclearfreezone     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What is going on with our young people? Why would a 15 year old be suicidal? What the fuck is going on?
From: B.C. | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 13 January 2006 07:57 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can't provide specifics about clients, but I'm working on Native issues these days, and alas 15-year-olds committing suicide or trying to isn't rare.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Carter
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posted 13 January 2006 08:14 PM      Profile for Carter        Edit/Delete Post
What is going on with our police?
From: Goin' Down the Road | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 13 January 2006 08:19 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nuclearfreezone:
What is going on with our young people? Why would a 15 year old be suicidal? What the fuck is going on?

Although a fifteen year old wanting to commit suicide is only tragic, in this case it was not really going to happen as he had a pellet gun, not a real gun. So he was shot, and could have easily been killed because a swat member who erroneously identified his pellet gun as a real gun.

Top pic is a 9mm "style" pellet gun, bottom is a real 9mm handgun.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 13 January 2006 08:29 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maritimesea,

I'm not quite sure I understand your point. The article did say the pellet gun was modified to look like the real thing. However, looking at the two pictures you posted it's not all that obvious which is which [after all, someone could also have modified the real thing as well].

I'm not a cop but I wouldn't ever want to be in the position of having someone point a "fake" gun at me and refuse to drop it. If you do nothing and it turns out to be real you, one of your friends, or someone in the general populace ends up dead. If you take action and it turns out to be a fake, you get pilloried in the press.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 13 January 2006 10:21 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't really know what they mean by "modified" to look like a real 9mm because as you can see they are already sold like that in stores by the major air gun manufacturers Daisy and Crossman.

Although I think Florida has been in the news more than a few times regarding excessive police force against children like here and hereand again here,and although I have my doubts about whether this situation could not have been solved any other way, based solely on statements from the people who did the shooting, the police, I am willing to admit that this may not have been a "shoot first ask questions later" situation. Maybe.

Because it's true the guns look identical. An identical looking gun that will instantly get you killed by police if you have it in your hand is specifically marketed to children.

Point? Airguns should look like the fakes they are.


From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 13 January 2006 10:31 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
'Suicide by cop' is not entirely unheard of. It sucks for the suicide, their family, the cop, and the rest of us.

It would be terrible to be the cop in that case. It would be terrible to be a suicide in any case.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 January 2006 11:03 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They shoot to kill all the time down there, including unarmed citizens and the odd mistaken idenity, mentally retarded etc. They're so trigger happy, the Yanks have to come to Canada to see Grizzly bears and Bald Eagles in their natural habitat.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 13 January 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the latest Associated Press report:

quote:
Eslinger said negotiators tried unsuccessfully to start a dialogue with the boy, identified as Christopher David Penley.

"He did not respond," Eslinger said. "He refused to even comment. All he said was his first name. He did not drop the firearm."

When the boy raised the gun at a deputy, he shot the youth, the sheriff said.

Penley was taken to a hospital, where he was on "advanced life support," the sheriff said.

"He was suicidal," Eslinger said. "During this standoff, and during the chase, the student said he was going to kill himself or die." At one point, the boy held the gun to his own neck.

No one else was injured. The sheriff's office confirmed later that the weapon was a pellet gun fashioned to look like a 9mm handgun. The tip of the gun had been painted black, covering brightly colored markings that would have indicated it was nonlethal.


I think this is one where the officer had no choice. Incredibly sad. The kid is still fighting for his life in the hospital and hopefully he'll through.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 January 2006 01:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You'd think in a case like this that snipers could have shot the bb gun out of the kid's hand, or at most, shot the kid in the shoulder or maybe his gun hand?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 14 January 2006 01:15 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's the handgun that the kid used.



From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
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posted 14 January 2006 01:17 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
You'd think in a case like this that snipers could have shot the bb gun out of the kid's hand, or at most, shot the kid in the shoulder or maybe his gun hand?.

How do you know that he wasn't shot in the shoulder?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 January 2006 01:26 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

How do you know that he wasn't shot in the shoulder?


It's possible, I guess. I'm thinking though that advanced life support usually means pulling out all the stops in preventing someone from flatlining. In which case, what kind of bullet or bullets was the kid shot with and where did it enter his body, what kind of damage was done?. That sort of thing. It could be they're giving him special attention because it was city cops involved and they want to avoid suing at all costs.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 January 2006 01:33 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Here's the handgun that the kid used.

I think if he'd actually used it, then they would have known it was just a bb gun.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 14 January 2006 03:54 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
You'd think in a case like this that snipers could have shot the bb gun out of the kid's hand, or at most, shot the kid in the shoulder or maybe his gun hand?.

A very cinematic solution, but one entirely at odds with reality. Police are trained to hit center body-mass. Like it or not, the idea is to put the person down, either by killing him, or disabling him entirely, so as to prevent him from firing back at police or by-standers.

Police select weapons especialy suited to the purpose and are mavens of 'stopping power.' Yes, different weapons would allow many more people shot by police to survive; the weaker weapons would also increase the chances of police or by-stander wounds. Police just about everywhere-- not just in the US-- have decided on the former stance.

As bloody-minded as the above sounds, it's actually rather a compromise. Hollow-point rounds are generally not used by police, even though they do alot more damage to the peron who gets shot and tend to stay in what they hit (and thus minimize civilian wounds from stray bullets).

The reason? For a start, hollow points mushroom inside the wound and make ballistics analysis much harder, and that likewise makes it harder to tell who fired the rounds that hit the traget (say, in a situation where several cops are firing.) The idea there is to make investigation of exactly what happend more precise.

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Tape_342 ]


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 14 January 2006 04:45 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for the Netherlands: We're pretty strict with fire-arms. Handguns and rifles, for every weapon a licence is required. People rarely hunt over here, most of the times it's only forest rangers (to preserve a balance in wildlife) and farmers (to protect their crops) doing the hunting.
You're not allowed to randomly travel with a gun, just for certain purposes (for example going to a shooting range or hunting).

This all has resulted in me knowing just 1 person who (legally!) owns a handgun, a guy at work. I'd be guessing, but I think about 90% of Dutch households don't own a gun, nor do they know anyone who (admits he) has one. So guns are rarely seen in the Netherlands.
As for pellet- or BB-guns, I believe they're both not allowed over here (know BB-guns for sure aren't). Any guns (even waterpistols) resembling real fire-arms, by colour and shape, are illegal over here. A 9mm Baretta waterpistol has to have somekind of bright colour and a metalic coloured watergun should be ridiculously shaped.

Unfortunately, this all hasn't prevented a 20 year old German from getting killed by the police in 2004. He was succesfully trying to commit suicide by having himself wasted by the police, after threating to start shooting, with what later turned out to be a mere gas-pistol.
But since they weren't able to see the difference, the 7 cops fired a total of 21 bullets at the German, of which 4 hit...

So waving a real or real-looking gun at the police seems to be a dangerous pasttime anywhere, eh...?

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 14 January 2006 08:52 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we make a mistake if we think that a pellet gun or a bb gun in the hands of the wrong person cannot be a lethal weapon. If shot in the right place it can be just as deadly as any "real gun".
I'm not sure it's a good idea to even classify this
as not being a "real gun".
My question is..how did the boy get the gun in the first place? Where were his parents? Why hadn't the parents noticed changes in him? If he was suicidal as they say, where were those whom should have seen signs of "withdrawl" "dropping grades" "excessive sleeping" "excessive eating" etc;?
I know the school my teenagers attend keep a good eye on these things with the children, they notice and watch and get to know the children and anything that concerns them, even in the slightest is immediately brought to the parents attention.

So where were all the adults that should have been around supporting this child long before he decided to take a pellet gun to school with him???

And what was the final straw, the last "I've had enough" incident that lead him to this final decision?

It's so damn sad!


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 14 January 2006 09:58 AM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think we make a mistake if we think that a pellet gun or a bb gun in the hands of the wrong person cannot be a lethal weapon. If shot in the right place it can be just as deadly as any "real gun".

I have to echo that. A quick Google will turn up any number of sites comparing pellet gun to "real guns". Even BB Guns can be incredibly dangerous.

If you look at sites like this one you'll see that a lot of people have figured this one out. You can also find a lot of sites run by serious gun nuts that analyse muzzle velocities, compare them to so called real guns, and explain how to tweak them. (You don't have to accept their politics to figure they know something about guns.) It looks like this is the gun he was using. Velocity of 393 fps - 8 shots, a mere $242.99.

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: abnormal ]


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 January 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I was shot in the arm with a pellet rifle when I was a kid. Hurt like a bugger.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 14 January 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great job on the research there, Abnormal!

Not everyone( in fact few in comparison to pop. size) here in Michigan is in the Militia, but a good many of us beleive in our right to bear arms, however; a good many of us make sure our guns are locked away in a combination safe so the children can't get them. The sad fact is a pellet gun or bb gun while still just as deadly in the wrong hands , has no controls on it..and just about anyone can buy one. Sadly there are parents that think this is a good "toy" so to speak for their (mostly boys)children...WRONG!!! There is no purpose for having a pellet gun or bb gun unsupervised under the age of majority..period.

Eventually I suspect that the Florida authorities will seek out the adults in this matter to get an explanation of where the gun came from and if..they "the adult" provided this gun to the 15 year old or their neglect left it easily attainable by the boy..then they will be held accountable in any number of ways, by law. That's a good thing.

Sadly, there are too many irresponsible or apathetic adults raising and teaching our children today. As such these things happen.

Someone had to know this boy was troubled.
Any adult that knows a young person who is troubled has an obligation to get some help to that child to insure that things like this don't happen.

As far as the police officer having shot a teenage boy. I am willing to bet that officer does not feel at all good about it. I know that at a distance there is no way to tell if the 15 year old is holding a real or toy gun, or if anyone is holding a real or toy gun. These things can be modified as abnormal stated above..very easily.
The pictures certainly tell me they couldn't tell if it was real or not. I can't tell and I am very familiar with guns.

Having said that, I will say that if this happened at the school my two teenagers attend..and a 15 year old co-student had that gun and was waving it around making threats, I would certainly "absolutely expect" that police officer to use whatever means neccessary to keep my innocent children safe from harm even if that means shooting the teenager with the gun.

I can't speak for all police shootings here, but in this case until I hear the teenager "had no gun at all" I am on the police officer's side.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 14 January 2006 04:07 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michigan, do you think that the U.S. being in a class by itself when it comes to homicides by shootings and children dying of gun shot wounds has anything to do with Remmington's, Winchester's, SmithnWesson's, Browning's etc right to profit from the sale of guns and bullets in the USA ?. Do you think the market could be saturated ?.

And for what it's worth, I think the title of the thread should be changed to "Florida CHILD shot by SWAT team" for the sake of "accuracy."

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 14 January 2006 05:37 PM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Update
From: Nova Scotia | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
skeptikool
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posted 14 January 2006 09:06 PM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post
GunLove lives! As does the inevitable whitewash.

I can't get that case out of my mind that occurred in London UK. We all know that running on train platforms is dangerous and to be discouraged, but it seemed a little extreme to stop it with seven bullets to the head. I think there must have been a lot of hate mixrd in there.
I'll give them top marks for trying to save the guy's life though - don't they always?


From: Delta BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 12:56 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Michigan, do you think that the U.S. being in a class by itself when it comes to homicides by shootings and children dying of gun shot wounds has anything to do with Remmington's, Winchester's, SmithnWesson's, Browning's etc right to profit from the sale of guns and bullets in the USA ?. Do you think the market could be saturated ?.

And for what it's worth, I think the title of the thread should be changed to "Florida CHILD shot by SWAT team" for the sake of "accuracy."

[ 14 January 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


Although I am not entirely sure what exactly you are asking Fidel, I will try to reply best I can.

Do I think the market is saturated ?, absolutely but not because of legal, legitmate Gun Companies. It's saturated because of black market sales by crimminals of all ilks. Here to get a handgun of any sort even a pellet gun (this is just Michigan and the county I live in) we have to take a gun safety course at the cop shop and we have to have a background check that takes about 7 days and then we have to register the gun with the cop shop.

Do I think that America is in a class by itself when it comes to deaths of children by guns?..no not when I educate myself about all the genocide that takes place all over the world.

What that has to do with what you classify as a "right" "to profit" by the Gun Manufactures, I am not sure I understand. Our Bill of Rights holds
no such "right" that I am aware of. Unless, you hold it under the category of "right liberty and the pursuit of happiness". The guns that are killing children or that our children get hold of many times are not legal guns, their stolen black market guns.

Just for the sake of defending my country a bit here as we always seem to come under the microscope when it comes to guns...a little history.

The very first gun invented was invented in Europe. Somerset, England to be exact. Gunpowder came first in 1241 and was ultimately followed by the Cannon in 1326 and in 1327 King Edward III used it in his campaign against the Scots.

So if we want to get really technical about who is responsible for our world being a world of "guns" then lets go back and find out. Guns continued to be manufactured almost soley in Europe, with the percussion cap being invented by Rev. John Forsythe of Aberdeenshire in the early 1800's and it wasn't until 1852 that the first gun manufacturer opened up in the United States started by Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson who's first company was bought out by Orville Winchester. Remington Rifles came about in 1816 when Eliphate Remington Jr. who was a mechanical genius asked his father Remington Sr. for a gun to shoot game, and his father told him they couldn't get one because they were not available in the USA and far to expensive to get from Europe. So, Jr. made his own out of scrap metal.

I didn't want to debate the "right to bear arms" issue. I think there is good arguement on both sides of that fence. I feel that while the "gun" is the tool..it's people who kill. Knives kill just as often and are just as deadly but we see no mass recall on knives no large scale movement for a knife banning, why? Because a knife is just a tool, it's the person with the knife that is deadly.

As far as changing the title, I've no problem with that. It's very sad..he was a child this is true.
A 15 year old child we must keep that in perspective..not 5 years old but 15 years old.
Certainly, he had some knowledge that what he was doing was "wrong". Certainly he knew and understood the rules and the dangers.

But I stand by my statement that I would want the Police to use whatever means necessary to keep my innocent children safe were a co-student waving anykind of weapon around the school while they were there in harms way.

Lets say the officer didn't shoot him, instead he did what some have wondered "why didn't they just walk up and take the gun away from him it was "only" a pellet gun? Would we say that if he took the pellet gun and put it to the officer's head and shot him, or worse yet put it another childs head and shot them? Why didn't the sniper shoot to hit the pellet gun? Well that was a good question and I don't have the answer as fact, but I thought perhaps he didn't have a clear shot at the pellet gun or perhaps thinking the gun a 44 cal. he thought about richocete and a bullet hitting an innocent child,(I know nothing about velocity regarding a sniper's rifle/bullet hitting metal/steel) or perhaps his training kicked in. I can't say. Perhaps those questions will be answered in the next few weeks.

I don't understand our eagerness to "judge and condem the Officer". Children of teen years can be just as deadly as any adult today in modern times..that's a fact. One only has to look at the news to see children are killing others all over the place. It's time that parents took responsibility for their children. How do they get these guns. How do they get so destraught as to be suicidal and a parent doesn't realise something is wrong where did the lines of communication break down? What was going on at the school that brough t him to the school?

I wish it were as simple as "bad cop" shoots "good kid" then we could fix it in a heart beat. Cop is adjudged and adjudicated and serves his punishment whatever that is. Or we take all the guns off the streets (if that were even possible) they'd still harm with other devices, perhaps not as easily, but then again..anyone can produce a bomb with the internet today, how do we take those off the market? The fact is we've built our own world with our race through technology, and production, and import, export and now ..we suffer the consequences.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 01:00 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Maritimesea:
I don't really know what they mean by "modified" to look like a real 9mm because as you can see they are already sold like that in stores by the major air gun manufacturers Daisy and Crossman.

Although I think Florida has been in the news more than a few times regarding excessive police force against children like here and hereand again here,and although I have my doubts about whether this situation could not have been solved any other way, based solely on statements from the people who did the shooting, the police, I am willing to admit that this may not have been a "shoot first ask questions later" situation. Maybe.

Because it's true the guns look identical. An identical looking gun that will instantly get you killed by police if you have it in your hand is specifically marketed to children.

Point? Airguns should look like the fakes they are.



I don't understand...how we dismiss it as being harmless..make no mistake..shot in the right area's of the body a "pellet" (fake gun) can kill and most surely severly injure.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 01:12 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh and by the way...we see bears and bald eagles up here in Michigan ALL the time. In fact, it is very severe punishment to harm the Bald Eagle in Michigan. We don't hunt the bald eagle. We have to have license to hunt deer and turkey and we can only hunt during specific times with specific weapons and only get so many deer/turkey per person/per license. And we don't hunt bear here, we go to Colorado or Utah or Montana somewhere like that. We are not ecologically challenged here, dispite some opinions that we are.
From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 January 2006 01:27 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Michigander, I believe in the right to have a hunting rifle if used and stored properly. I don't see a real need for rifles in major cities. I see even less need for handguns in cities unless they're cops. And handguns are not what someone should use for deer or even pheasant. I think handguns should be illegal except for the cops and military. I think the American statistics for child deaths by gun shot are appalling.

And if kids did only have access to bb guns, homicide rates would be far lower. The kid with the bb gun in this case wasn't about to kill anyone with it that day, and I think he knew that too. It wasn't a bb gun that took his life.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Maritimesea
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posted 15 January 2006 02:25 AM      Profile for Maritimesea     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pellet guns are not deadly weapons. They can be deadly, but they are not deadly by default, like a handgun is. Yes if you shoot someone right square in the eyeball, or the pellet just happens to be just in the right place someone may die. But that's a far cry from from the 100% assurance of killing someone with a handgun if you simply point it at their chest. My question would be, why are companies like Daisy allowed to manufacture essentially toys that are exact replicas of actual handguns. Where is the demand for accountability from these companies? A product they sold intended primarily for children was the direct cause of that same child being killed by police. No licence is needed for these toys, you can simply go to walmart and buy one along with your running shoes.

Real gun manufacturers can avoid responsibilty for all the death and misery they profit from because there are, such as it is, licencing requirements for legally obtainable guns.

But since no licencing at all is required to buy a sometimes deadly, real gun replica air gun, how can these companies avoid accepting direct responsibility for this boys' death? This isn't the first time I've heard of people using air guns in the comission of a criminal act. It may even be more common in Canada due to actual handguns being so tough to obtain, either legally or illegally. It would be naive to think that these "toys" would stop being marketed and sold to children but at the very least I would hope for a call for these weapons to be designed in such a way that there would never be any ambiguity about what they are.

Something perhaps like this:


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maestro
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posted 15 January 2006 04:54 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A slightly different version of the story:

Eighth-grader shot by deputies

quote:

Eighth-grader shot by deputies while holding toy gun at school is brain dead
21:26:37 EST Jan 14, 2006 KELLI KENNEDY

LONGWOOD, Fla. (AP) - The parents of a 15-year-old boy accused of terrorizing classmates with a pistol warned authorities the weapon likely was fake before police shot him in a middle school bathroom, a family lawyer said Saturday.

Christopher Penley, of Winter Springs, was clinically brain dead Saturday, Mark Nation said. "His organs are in the process of being harvested."

...The boy's parents, Ralph and Donna Penley, were in contact with authorities during the incident and told them they believed Penley did not have a real gun, said the family lawyer. Ralph Penley went to the school to attempt to talk his son out of the situation.

"When he got to the school, they would not let him in and he was later told Christopher had been shot," Nation said.



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neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 08:31 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Michigander, I believe in the right to have a hunting rifle if used and stored properly. I don't see a real need for rifles in major cities. I see even less need for handguns in cities unless they're cops. And handguns are not what someone should use for deer or even pheasant. I think handguns should be illegal except for the cops and military. I think the American statistics for child deaths by gun shot are appalling.

And if kids did only have access to bb guns, homicide rates would be far lower. The kid with the bb gun in this case wasn't about to kill anyone with it that day, and I think he knew that too. It wasn't a bb gun that took his life.



I have to say Fidel, I've had a similar arguement with my husband regarding "gun control". I live in very rural Northeastern Michigan. Hunting is a way of life up here and the way many poorer people feed their families a bit of meat. I see no reason for example for anyone to have an "assualt rifle" what-so-ever except for the military and perhaps law enforcement. As I said I see valid arguement on both sides of this issue and I am not entirely sure where I come down on the issue..I most likely am a fence sitter as I see the arguement both ways having some merit and I may not like it but clearly our forefathers intended for us to have the "right to bear arms" it would have been nice could they have had 20/20 hindsight and perhaps put this law the right to bear "rifles" but they didn't. And, having the "right to bear arms" has it's merits for many reasons although agreed it's not a perfect world or a perfect law. I don't live in or even close to a large city. The closest large city to me is 2.5 hours drive south. All we have is a WalMart..LOL! I've witnessed a shooting in a large city right next door to where I was staying in a subdivision in you guessed it Florida. I vowed to never go back to Miami, Florida 16 years ago, and I haven't. Miami,Florida is an entirely different world than where I am from in Michigan and it's a scary one.
I hope you make no mistake that I am deeply saddened at the loss of a child to anyone for any reason as I see it as such a waste of life. If the boy was suicidal then he wasn't thinking clearly at all and I know what teenagers are like at 15 with the hormones raging, I'm just getting through my last two of four of them myself, they do not rationalize well at all and the littlest thing can spell the end of the world for them. I cannot imagine the pain his parents are suffering it must be a pain that is unbearable at best which is not good at all. What I am trying to say is laying responsibility is not as simple as we would have it be "it's the cops fault" or "it's the gun manufacturers fault" or "the parent fault" or "the schools fault". I think truly it is a combination of conditions, circumstances and responsibilities that bear examining. Were that it was a simple solution we could end this hideious loss of children in the US due to availability of guns of ANY TYPE. Alas, removing the guns alone wouldn't stop the violent acts, or the irresponsible adults and the misled children and I dare say would absolutely lead to even more black market sales, which thugs of all kinds make an enormous amount of money on. I would love to hear a viable solution and would entertain any and I've wracked my brain, laying awake at night wondering, pondering, and trying to come up with a working solution myself.

I hope you understand I am simply looking at this with a more realistic broader paint brush because it's a very complicated problem raising many issues.

Have a wonderful sunny day!


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 09:04 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Maritimesea:
Pellet guns are not deadly weapons. They can be deadly, but they are not deadly by default, like a handgun is. Yes if you shoot someone right square in the eyeball, or the pellet just happens to be just in the right place someone may die. But that's a far cry from from the 100% assurance of killing someone with a handgun if you simply point it at their chest. My question would be, why are companies like Daisy allowed to manufacture essentially toys that are exact replicas of actual handguns. Where is the demand for accountability from these companies? A product they sold intended primarily for children was the direct cause of that same child being killed by police. No licence is needed for these toys, you can simply go to walmart and buy one along with your running shoes.

Real gun manufacturers can avoid responsibilty for all the death and misery they profit from because there are, such as it is, licencing requirements for legally obtainable guns.

But since no licencing at all is required to buy a sometimes deadly, real gun replica air gun, how can these companies avoid accepting direct responsibility for this boys' death? This isn't the first time I've heard of people using air guns in the comission of a criminal act. It may even be more common in Canada due to actual handguns being so tough to obtain, either legally or illegally. It would be naive to think that these "toys" would stop being marketed and sold to children but at the very least I would hope for a call for these weapons to be designed in such a way that there would never be any ambiguity about what they are.

Something perhaps like this:


I would have to agree with you Maritimesea, regarding the making of the pellet and bb guns so that they stand alone and look absolutely 100% fake. I say paint them hot pink for goodness sake!! But then I ask myself, what is the usefulness of a pellet gun or a bb gun anyway?
We don't hunt with it. The military doesn't use it for anything that I am aware of. Law Enforcement has no use for them either so what other purpose than to "draw children into the world of guns under the misguided notion that these are safe guns for children to have" clearly as we see they are not safe for many reasons.

In my opinion it becomes a judgement call in alot of ways for parents. Do I buy my boy a pellet gun or bb gun? If I do how do I insure that he only uses it under adult supervision and that it is locked away (and I do mean locked away in a safe with a combination that only the adult has possession of) any other time? Is my boy mature enough, responsible enough, and educated enough in gun safety to own ANY gun? I say if you want to buy your child a safe gun get them a "paint ball gun" that would be the only gun I'd say has a nearly zero likelihood of hurting or maiming anyone. They sting a bit, and mess up a ton of clothing but they are reasonably safe. At least I haven't heard of anyone dying from misusing one, although there is always a first time.

Going after the manufacturer's is alot more complicated than one might realise and costly to boot, a cost our government doesn't want to bear and many citizens can't afford. I would agree in some instances there may be merit to do just that. I am just not sure that's the case here as we don't know the background story here and there are alot of unaswered questions. Before I made a decision like that I would want to know the answers to those questions, like "where did he get the gun"? Did anyone know he was struggling with suicidal tendancies? Had he been in trouble before? And many more questions too, like "why didn't the SWAT officer shoot the gun out of his hand"? I think that's a good question and it may have a good reasonable answer as all my questions may. But I just reserve passing judgement on any one person or entity alone here until all the facts are out and questions answered. That may not make me popular but it makes me very likely to be a good juror on a panel deciding one's fate if one found oneself in a courtroom facing charges and frankly it's just my nature. As I stated in an earlier post, please make no mistake that I am deeply saddened at the loss of this child or any child at all. I cannot imagine the pain his parents must feel. I'd bet they have tons of questions too, not only for law enforcement but for the school and I dare say even themselves. I don't know that I could bear it at all if it were my child. But I reserve my judgement on anyone who might have a responsibility in this particular incident as I see it as a very complicated issue and one that has no "open and shut" "simple solution"

But I whole heartedly agree with you..if we are gonna mass market these for use by and primarily to teenage children..then for goodness sake..paint the daggone things hot pink, purple with green dots, make them look like an elephant, something, anything. But then again as I stated why not take them off the market entirely and only permit children of a certain age to have "paint ball guns"? Perhaps only a paint ball gun after taking a full blown gun safety course. In my community which is in no way even close to being like any Florida community the boys whom hunt with their fathers cannot hunt at all, or be seen carrying any kind of firearm without having adult supervision and/or taking a full blown course in gun safety with a reputable teacher who is certified. Here in Michigan our DNR (Department of Natural Resources) provide these classes several times a year for free. Many gun owners are responsible in everyway for their guns of all kinds here in Michigan. I have to state that because Michigan seems to get "generalized" as gun toting Militia mentality driven" individuals (since the Okie City Bombing and the responsible parties ties to Michigan) and well it "just ain't so".

I wish it weren't so complicated an issue and there were a simple solution. I've not yet thought of one, seems each have their own merits and own drawbacks.

I hope you read my previous post to Fidel and understand my intentions.

Have a happy sunny day.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 09:13 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:
A slightly different version of the story:

Eighth-grader shot by deputies


I am glad you put this here Maestro. It proves that media reporting is first, often a matter of ones personal opinions and perceptions and that goes for all media reporting. Second, that someone is clearly not telling the truth and white washing the true story. And three, that I am right when I don't beleive everything I read regardless of which side it comes down on.

Have a great sunny day


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 15 January 2006 09:18 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by neighbormichigan:

And many more questions too, like "why didn't the SWAT officer shoot the gun out of his hand"? I think that's a good question and it may have a good reasonable answer as all my questions may.

First, there is the difficulty in hitting such a small target that's out there on the end of an arm that's moving around-- a circumstance which alone makes it the sole province of TV and movies.

Add to that, the information that the boy raised the gun toward police, so they had a split second to aim and fire.

Further, if they missed they might well hit other cops.

Then there is the likelihood that--even if they hit it-- the wrenching of the weapon away from the hand would cause the trigger to be pulled.

Past that, there's concern about where the bullet would go after it ricocheted off the metal pistol. They don't just disappear into thin air.

Shooting guns out of people's hands is just not a realistic scenario.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 09:40 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those would be my answers too Tape_342. Which is why I hesitate to place any personal responsibility on the Officers involved. They were doing their job. The job the citizens pay them for. The job I would expect them to do if my children had been at that school.

Amazing how TV and Movies can make the impossible and implausible seem a readily viable solution that people not ever having training or facing the situation that these Officers did would embrace so quickly. As I've said..it's not so simple.


quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:

First, there is the difficulty in hitting such a small target that's out there on the end of an arm that's moving around-- a circumstance which alone makes it the sole province of TV and movies.

Add to that, the information that the boy raised the gun toward police, so they had a split second to aim and fire.

Further, if they missed they might well hit other cops.

Then there is the likelihood that--even if they hit it-- the wrenching of the weapon away from the hand would cause the trigger to be pulled.

Past that, there's concern about where the bullet would go after it ricocheted off the metal pistol. They don't just disappear into thin air.

Shooting guns out of people's hands is just not a realistic scenario.



From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 15 January 2006 09:59 AM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I say paint them hot pink for goodness sake!!

I used to think that would be a realistic solution.

Until criminals armed with real firearms got their hands on some hot pink paint.

There's no easy (aesthetic, technological) solution to this one.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Amen aRoused!!!

quote:
Originally posted by aRoused:

I used to think that would be a realistic solution.

Until criminals armed with real firearms got their hands on some hot pink paint.

There's no easy (aesthetic, technological) solution to this one.



From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 11:28 AM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just recently reported by a Michigan News Source;

Shot Teen's Parents Question Police Action
15-Year-Old Declared Brain Dead; Organs Being Harvested

POSTED: 8:39 am EST January 15, 2006
UPDATED: 9:06 am EST January 15, 2006

LONGWOOD, Fla. -- The parents of a 15-year-old boy accused of terrorizing classmates with a pistol warned authorities the weapon likely was fake before police shot him in a middle school bathroom, a family attorney said Saturday.

Christopher Penley, of Winter Springs, was accused of pulling a pellet gun in a classroom Friday and pointing it at other students. When he later raised the weapon at a deputy, a SWAT team member shot him, authorities said.

Officers who had responded to the 1,100-student school in suburban Orlando believed the gun was a Beretta 9mm, and didn't learn until after the shooting that it was a pellet gun.

The boy's parents, Ralph and Donna Penley, were in contact with authorities during the incident and told them they believed Penley did not have a real gun, said family attorney Mark Nation. Ralph Penley went to the school to attempt to talk his son out of the situation.

"When he got to the school, they would not let him in and he was later told Christopher had been shot," Nation said.

Sheriff's officials Saturday did not return several calls from The Associated Press seeking comment on the lawyer's allegations.

Penley was clinically brain dead Saturday, Nation said. "His organs are in the process of being harvested."

Friends and investigators say Penley was bullied and emotionally distraught, and went to school that day expecting to die.

Patrick Lafferty, a 15-year-old neighbor who has known Penley about six years, said he wasn't surprised by what happened. He said Penley was a loner who "told me he wanted to kill himself dozens of times."

"He would put his headphones on and walk up and down the street and he would work out a lot," preferring to keep to himself, Lafferty said.

Kelly Swofford, a family spokeswoman and neighbor of the boy's parents, said the boy had run away from home several times. Her 11-year-old son, Jeffery Swofford, said Penley had said he had something planned.

"He said `I hope I die today because I don't really like my life,"' Jeffery Swofford said.

Maurice Cotey, 13, told WKMG-TV in Orlando that he struggled with Penley over the gun after everyone else left the classroom.

"He got me towards the closet door, he turned me around, and ... started to point the gun at me, so I started to grab for it. And he pulled it away and then I grabbed for it one more time, .... twisted it and I pointed it at him."

Cotey said after he put the gun to Penley's legs, the gunman kicked him into the closet, where the two scuffled further, before Penley ran out of the classroom.

The school went into lockdown.

From there, Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger said, Penley traversed the Milwee Middle School campus before ending up in a bathroom. By then, more than 40 officers, including SWAT and negotiators, were on scene. He refused to drop the firearm, Eslinger said, and was shot after pointing it at a SWAT deputy.

Jeffery Swofford said Penley had been in a disagreement with someone, allegedly over a girl. There was going to be a fight Friday, he said. "I heard a rumor that he had a BB gun, but I didn't think he really had one," he added.


There is always more to the story, seems this boy was troubled for a long time if we beleive this media representation, hence the question where were the adults whom this boy should have been getting help & support from? His classmates and peers knew.

It's just a question.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 15 January 2006 11:38 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
I think if he'd actually used it, then they would have known it was just a bb gun.

Next time maybe you could step forward and act as a target? You know, like those gel heads we see on CSI.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 15 January 2006 11:46 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
neighbormichigan, welcome to babble from a fellow (disaffected) American.

Here's my take.

The USA is a nation that was born in violence, nurtured on violence and continues to believe that violence solves problems.

Guns are everywhere in the USA and up until about two generations ago, that was not so much a problem as it has become, especially with the rate of homicides among young people.

In fact, well into the 60s, kids could walk down Main Street of most American small towns with a loaded .22 rifle (out to do some plinking) and no one would have thought twice about it.

But something changed, or perhaps more accurately, evolved.

As our society continued to spiral into its consumerist fed madness, the availabity of all the firepower became aligned with a propensity among people to use it more and more.

The central question to ask in the Florida teen's question is - if the young man was suicidal, why did he choose this manner of death?

The guns have always been with us and so has the glorification of their use. TV was saturated with westerns back in the 50s that showed a lot of (unrealistic) gun play.

But now in the media, I daresay you won't find a movie or TV show heavily advertised where people pointing guns aren't a main facet of the sell. Check it out for yourself - watch TV and movie previes critically - in a space of an hour, count how many people are portrayed pointing guns. It'll shock you.

This is what kids see. I would not blame any single influence - its all pervasive. Of course, music videos are rife with violence as are the movies and TV. But so too are the cumulative effects of real life violence. One merely has to pay attention to the news.

And then there is Iraq. Every day.

Its saturation. But aligned with the saturation of media images of gunplay and mayhem is one other facet that doesn't get much attention.

For many disaffected kids among others, they know or come to realise that the only time in their lives where they might be shown a modicum of respect is when they are holding a weapon on someone.

Don't discount this. For so many people in this society, having a weapon is the only thing they feel gives them any real power in their lives. This is the other side of the gun culture - social anomie - and we don't talk about it enough. In my rabble.ca column, I wrote about visions of the future (or lack thereof) that puts guns in the hands of kids and gives them a propensity to use them without regard to their lives or others. This is a major factor that is not being seriously addressed.

So you have the availability of weapons, plus the cachet of power they have (which is nutured in the media) plus the hopelessness of so many in our society and it equals a very big problem that we just can't seem to wrap out hands around. This is the three legged stool I see that nutures gun violence.

If people feel that life is cheap and their lives are cheaper, it makes it so much easier to live for the moment (get rich or die tryin' as 50 Cent portrays). A lot of that is America's traditional racism as I have written before. A lot of it are the growing inequalities among classes in the USA. Much of it is the creation of alternative family structures (gangs) that give people a sense of belonging that the larger society does not (or no longer) gives them. And then there is a consumerist mentality that tells people you are what you own/wear/drive.

This is my general view of the gun violence problem in the US, not of the subject of this thread.

Now this young man had problems of his own. But instead of finding a real gun and turning it on himself, he got a realistic looking pellet gun and forced an apparent (my assumption) suicide by cop. Each incident and each person are different so I do not know what was going through this unfortunate young man's head. We may or may not ever know for sure. Perhaps he only brought the weapon in to scare the other student he was having a dispute with. Again, its speculation.

But isn't it peculiar how often these horrible scenes come down to gunplay? And how often a firearm is the chosen conduit of this violence?

It seems that in death, this young man got what he never could in life - a recognition that his life somehow mattered and he was important - if only for an instant.

And that is the saddest thing of all.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 12:45 PM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Américain Égalitaire,

Hello and Bravo!!!
Excellent, excellent wish I could have said that..like that!!!

Only I think I'd add that our generation has become far too apathetic as citizen's and especially as parents. That if we don't fix it we are destine to leave it to the very confused, embittered children left to follow which I don't think will be productive in any way to the future society.

Funny, my husband of 16 years and I were just discussing this as he is a fierce proponent of
his "right to bear arms" and I; wouldn't even allow him a rifle in the home without a safe to put it in. In discussing this thread in particular, as he is my bouncing off guy, I said to him;

We've made our bed and now we must lay in the messed up heap..we don't know how to get out and make it up right. We have never been happy with what we have, we consume in mass quantity because we always have to have bigger, better, faster.
It's never enough. Bigger house, faster computer, faster car, larger screen television, Eye in the sky radio (satellite)on and on and on.

I've maintained all along..where were the adults in this situation? This child clearly needed help and showed signs of the same long before this incident.

It is a collective responsibility, we can blame no one thing or person. However, we as the adults are often times the very last obstacle standing in the way of these children and we miss the signs all the time, and it certainly isn't because we aren't educated and intelligent people, it's the apathy.
We may not have created the apathy in our ranks, but we sure have a responsibility to own it and do something about it once we know better.

How sad that something like this has to come about before we even have this discussion; how many of us were just discussing our new car or the new computer we want to get, or how broad band access to the internet is fabulous!!! Or, how a lady in a mall complained about pornographic material her children saw in a window. I wonder..did she then sit the children down and share her views with them in a way they could understand, or did she just cover their eyes and shush them along, pretending it never happened, because she had to go to the next electronics sale and claim her Ipod.


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 January 2006 01:58 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Firearm deaths per 100K
1994-95

Japan 0.07
Vietnam 0.18
U.K. 0.57
Spain 1.01
Germany 1.47
Sweden 2.31
Australia 3.05
U.S.A. 13.70
(Globe and Mail, Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, Feb. 12, 1999)

Beretta: "Easy to conceal. Easy to fire. Easy to acquire. Hard to beat."

Oh this is goooood ...

quote:
The gun-makers tell us to buy handguns for self-defense. In the MADness of their argument, the Mutually Assured Destruction of an escalating arms race, they say we need their guns to protect ourselves from their guns.

Grim statistics and senseless killing brought to you by the NRA and gun lobbyists of America.

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 15 January 2006 04:46 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Firearm deaths per 100K
1994-95


Why quote such out of date statistics?

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 15 January 2006 05:52 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
Firearm deaths per 100K
1994-95

You forgot to mention Brazil, the most violent country in the world. Every 15 minutes someone dies of gunviolence, which comes down to about 35.000 people dieing from fire-arms each year

[ETA1: According to this release from 2004 it's even worse...]

[ETA2: If you take the 50.000 of the 2004-article above, and take the population of Brazil in 2004 according to the first result found here (being 169.799.170 people), you'll get an astounding 29.4 per 100k..!]

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 06:05 PM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dare say there are probably more than that in the US now. However, how easy it is to point out that the US has this problem. Never mentioning countries like Brazil, or the Genocide going on in places like the Ivory Coast and the Congo where they shot men, women and children alike on a daily basis just because of their ethnicity, gender or some other bias motive. No..no the US is responsible for more children's murders than anyone!!! I dare say..the only reason we are so in the spotlight is that we report it, we discuss it, and we absolutely know there is a problem. We just don't know how to fix it. However, I am proud that we are a nation not commiting the atrocities of genocide, where one can come and have freedoms not found in alot of the other parts of the world and where we are founded on a melting pot of peoples and ideas. With these marvelous freedoms comes responsibility of course and a price to pay for having them. Sometimes we don't agree with the price, or want the price or even deserve the price. But it is what it is. I'd still rather be a citizen here than any other place in the world.
From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
neighbormichigan
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posted 15 January 2006 06:14 PM      Profile for neighbormichigan     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Clog-boy:

You forgot to mention Brazil, the most violent country in the world. Every 15 minutes someone dies of gunviolence, which comes down to about 35.000 people dieing from fire-arms each year

[ETA1: According to this release from 2004 it's even worse...]

[ETA2: If you take the 50.000 of the 2004-article above, and take the population of Brazil in 2004 according to the first result found
here (being 169.799.170 people), you'll get an astounding 29.4 per 100k..!]

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


Bravo! Clog boy!!! Unfortunately, these countries are easy to overlook because they have so many restrictions and so few freedoms. Then couple that with...I could be wrong but..it seems during these times we always look to America to dive in and fix this in third world countries with little help from anyone else, so along with policing our own country we are expected to police all third world countries that's quite an expectation. In the meantime, we get the USA haters who would make us out to be the worst country in the world. Because..I have to guess we must give too many freedoms..or is that not enough? That usually depends on what you speak about. If it's gun's it's too many..if it's taking away convicted crimminals rights to vote it's too litlle. What's an American to do?


From: Michigan, United States | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 15 January 2006 06:28 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...it seems during these times we always look to America to dive in and fix this in third world countries with little help from anyone else, so along with policing our own country we are expected to police all third world countries that's quite an expectation.

I have no particularly brilliant thoughts on gun violence, but... just who is this "we" who looks to America to dive in and fix things?

And just who (outside the US, I mean) expects the US to police any "third world country," let alone all of them? I certainly have no such expectation, me.

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 15 January 2006 06:44 PM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In the meantime, we get the USA haters who would make us out to be the worst country in the world. Because..I have to guess we must give too many freedoms..or is that not enough?

Yes. That's why the world hates you. Too many damned freedoms. As the only country in the world to have freedom, it naturally engenders jealousy and hatred from those who have no experience with such things. Like Canada. Or France.


From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
fern hill
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posted 15 January 2006 06:57 PM      Profile for fern hill        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by neighbormichigan:
we always look to America to dive in and fix this in third world countries with little help from anyone else, so along with policing our own country we are expected to police all third world countries that's quite an expectation. In the meantime, we get the USA haters who would make us out to be the worst country in the world. Because..I have to guess we must give too many freedoms..or is that not enough? That usually depends on what you speak about. If it's gun's it's too many..if it's taking away convicted crimminals rights to vote it's too litlle. What's an American to do?

Um, think for yourself for a change? Everybody hates your freedoms. Sheesh, even the willing ones are deluded and brainwashed.


From: away | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 January 2006 07:03 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Included in those American freedoms are the right to profit from handgun sales and prison labour. The U.S. owns the largest prison population in the world.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 15 January 2006 07:10 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Neighbor, as a fellow Yank, I can tell you that USian arrogance doesn't fly on this board.
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 15 January 2006 07:56 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
He said deputies isolated the boy in a bathroom, and opened fire when he raised the gun.

This is what strikes me as the point of error, or perhaps of bloody mindedness.
They had isolated the kid in a bathroom. So what's the big fucking rush they had to go in there and have a showdown? Leave him in the bathroom, let him cool down a little, talk from outside. He's not going anywhere, and he can't hurt anyone while he's in there and nobody else is. Plenty of time now to calm the situation down, call in parents or other people who know him, do soothing talk. Instead they had to go in like cowboys and precipitate a "drop it or we shoot" situation. Once you've done that, sure, if you don't know what he's got and he won't drop it, you gotta shoot. That's why you don't create that situation. Not if you're competent.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 15 January 2006 08:07 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What, they don't have tazers? 50,000 volts will drop anybody of any size to the floor, incapacitate them, HURT LIKE HELL, and leave them alive in the bargain.

What was it Scrooge said about reducing the surplus population...???


From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 January 2006 08:13 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:
Neighbor, as a fellow Yank, I can tell you that USian arrogance doesn't fly on this board.

Michigan is a wonderful state. We like the cherry festivals, deer hunting, rock concerts, Mackinac Island, boating and more. The straight as an arrow concrete highways are a bit dull though for us frozen hosers who've developed nerves of steel from being tailgated down 20 kliks of twisting and winding roads by logging trucks. Wimps!

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 15 January 2006 08:19 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hate tailgaters! Just this afternoon, I had one of them in front of me...

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ward
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posted 15 January 2006 08:34 PM      Profile for Ward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I remember camping years ago in Michigan. And being nearly eaten alive by something they called 'no-see-ems' (Ithink that's what they called them.
From: Scarborough | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 15 January 2006 08:48 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

Michigan is a wonderful state. We like the cherry festivals, deer hunting, rock concerts, Mackinac Island, boating and more. The straight as an arrow concrete highways are a bit dull though for us frozen hosers who've developed nerves of steel from being tailgated down 20 kliks of twisting and winding roads by logging trucks. Wimps!


I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit. I like Michigan, too.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 15 January 2006 09:27 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ward:
I remember camping years ago in Michigan. And being nearly eaten alive by something they called 'no-see-ems' (Ithink that's what they called them.

I've heard Yanks call em that too. I think we call them sand flies. You sort of feel a burning sensation on your arm or leg but don't see anything there right away. Yep, and the mosquitoes are so big in Michigan that they accidentally fueled one up at the airport last summer.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 15 January 2006 09:28 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:

I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit. I like Michigan, too.


Well, I grew up in Ohio so, um, I was never that fond of "that state up north" as Woody Hayes used to call it.

But hey, I've had loads of fun in Michigan.

I sometimes think the USA thinks of guns the way Homer Simpson thinks of alcohol - the cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

I would also like to know as well if and why a confrontation was forced with this kid instead of a waiting out.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 15 January 2006 09:44 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Tape_342:
Neighbor, as a fellow Yank, I can tell you that USian arrogance doesn't fly on this board.

USian arrogance is, to my way of thinking, merely amusing.

It's woe-is-us USian martyrdom that's really exasperating.

Edit:

Nah, scratch that, they're both a bit pathetic.

[ 15 January 2006: Message edited by: 'lance ]


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
skeptikool
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posted 15 January 2006 11:02 PM      Profile for skeptikool        Edit/Delete Post
Rufus Polson and A.E. both referred to what immediately occurred to me on reading the newspaper account. Since the boy was contained, why not back off and wait it out?

I believe the ugly truth to be that there are those, legally armed, who will feel unfulfilled unless a "legitimate" situation arises permitting them to use their weapons.

There may be gravy even for the killer. I heard recently of a law enforcement individual (in Canada) being on paid leave for over two years after a questionable killing - almost an incentive, wouldn't you say?


From: Delta BC | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sam Steele
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posted 16 January 2006 01:33 AM      Profile for Sam Steele     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skeptikool:
Rufus Polson and A.E. both referred to what immediately occurred to me on reading the newspaper account. Since the boy was contained, why not back off and wait it out?

I believe the ugly truth to be that there are those, legally armed, who will feel unfulfilled unless a "legitimate" situation arises permitting them to use their weapons.

There may be gravy even for the killer. I heard recently of a law enforcement individual (in Canada) being on paid leave for over two years after a questionable killing - almost an incentive, wouldn't you say?


Every cop I know who's shot someone has gone through hell. I can't imagine a more stressful experience. Aside from getting beat to death, having to use my firearm is THE situation I dread most in this job, and I don't know any other cops who feel differently. Yeah, blah blah, "all you cops say that." Well, it's true. We're not inhuman, we have the same thought processes as you, and most of the weirdos get eliminated during the hiring or training phase.

Regarding this incident, from a couple accounts I read the boy was in the washroom but the tactical team was out in the hallway and was attempting to negotiate when the boy came out and pointed the gun at a deputy. I wouldn't make a final judgement until more complete accounts come out. Early accounts are often erroneous.

As for Taser, it would not work in this situation. It's not all that accurate after about ten feet so you've got to move in pretty close to assure a good hit; not a good thing to do when somebody has a gun. Only time I'd try to Taser a gun-toting person would be if I could sneak up from behind while other officers had a lethal overwatch; and even this plan would probably be unnecessarily provocative. The Taser can't be deployed as quickly as a firearm, either; there's a slight delay after pulling the trigger before the cartridge ignites, which also contributes to inaccuracy. For reference I've used a Taser three times operationally.

[ 16 January 2006: Message edited by: Sam Steele ]


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 16 January 2006 06:09 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suicide-by-cop

quote:
Suicide-by-cop researcher advocates alternatives to deadly force

Contact:
Rick Parent, 604.946.4411
Marianne Meadahl, Media & PR, 604.291.4323

October 05, 2004
Rick Parent broke new ground with his master's research on police use of deadly force, a phenomenon now known as suicide-by-cop. His 1996 study focused on police shootings in B.C. His latest work -- which has earned him a PhD -- examines police use of deadly force across North America.

Parent found that at least one third of police shootings that occur across the continent are precipitated by the victim -- individuals who are typically predisposed to suicide or mental illness, and, in a calculated and deliberate manner, have forced a police officer to use potentially deadly force.

As a result of his studies, Parent advocates the need for alternative methods of controlling violent or potentially violent suspects, including the use of Taser guns and other alternatives to traditional firearms. “Training of police should continue to emphasize non-violent strategies in dealing with individuals who are suicidal, intoxicated or mentally ill, in order to reduce the likelihood that an encounter will lead to death by legal intervention,” he adds.

The veteran Delta police sergeant's PhD research is based on examinations of more than 400 police shootings in Canada and more than 400 others in the U.S. between 1980 and 2002. Police use of deadly force is rare in B.C. and, while the number of incidents is far greater south of the border, Parent found the dynamics of police shooting incidents are often identical.

Parent also interviewed police officers involved in the use of deadly force, and prison inmates who survived police shootings. His dissertation contains the most comprehensive analysis of police use of deadly force conducted in Canada, says SFU criminology professor Simon Verdun-Jones.

Parent, who receives his PhD during SFU's morning convocation ceremony Oct. 7, continues to be frequently sought out by the media as well as the courts as a leading expert in the field.



From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 January 2006 06:30 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sam Steele:

As for Taser, it would not work in this situation. It's not all that accurate after about ten feet so you've got to move in pretty close to assure a good hit; not a good thing to do when somebody has a gun.
[ 16 January 2006: Message edited by: Sam Steele ]


But the 15 year old boy didn't have a real gun. He never got off so much as a spit ball at anyone.
What's this about his parents trying to inform the SWAT team about the boy's intentions?.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sam Steele
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posted 16 January 2006 07:42 AM      Profile for Sam Steele     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

But the 15 year old boy didn't have a real gun. He never got off so much as a spit ball at anyone.
What's this about his parents trying to inform the SWAT team about the boy's intentions?.


From the latest AP story:

ESLINGER is the Sheriff
Chris PENLEY is the deceased boy
Ralph PENLEY is the father of the deceased
NATION is PENLEY's lawyer

-----
Eslinger said Friday it wasn't until after the incident that authorities realized the weapon was a pellet gun. But Nation said Saturday Ralph Penley told authorities it wasn't a real gun on a cell phone as he rushed to the school after hearing of the incident. Nation said police wouldn't let Ralph Penley inside when he arrived.

"If Christopher was alive and (Ralph Penley) was able to go into the school, he would've been able to talk him out of it," Nation said. "He did everything he could to avoid this situation."

However, Nation said he didn't know the precise time line of events, including whether Christopher had died before Ralph Penley arrived. He said he would be investigating further.
-----

As you can see from this account, the story of the parents telling the police about the pellet gun came from the lawyer yesterday, but today the lawyer admits he doesn't know *when* the father communicated this information. As such, we don't know if the police were aware of these factors before the tragic fatal shot.

Regarding the gun being fake; it's really not realistic to ask the police to wait to be fired on before they take defensive action if they reasonably believe a firearm is being pointed at them. As well, it wouldn't be realistic to ask the police to back off because this was in a school and the potential-shooter had to be contained so he couldn't possibly hurt any other kids or staff.


From: BC | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 16 January 2006 10:35 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As for why the police didn't just back off, give the kid a few minutes alone to think, etc... given the circumstances as reported, it seems likely that-- believe it or not-- they were actually trying to keep the boy from shooting himself just as much as they wanted to ensure he didn't shoot anybody else. Cops can be nasty, for sure, but nobody wants a dead teenager at the end of this thing.

It's a delicate balance: you try to talk the kid down, but if he gives indication that he is not about to be dissuaded (like pointing the gun at a cop), a new set of imperatives apply, and-- alas-- he gets shot.

Now as for bringing in Mom and Dad to talk, the police are not about to put civilians anywhere near this situation. That would be irresponsible to the safety of Mom and Dad. Beyond that, for all anyone knew it was a tussle with Mom and Dad that put him on a suicidal course to begin with. It would have been foolhardy to up the boy's emotional temperature that way. It has the prospect to escalate the goings-on as much as calm them.

And even if Mom and Dad did tell the police that the weapon was probably a pellet gun in a timely fashion... Ok, you're a cop. It might be a pellet gun, and it might not. Sure doesn't look like one. He raises it at you or another cop. Are you really going to think, 'well, we'll just go with the pellet-gun theory until he actually fires it?' BANG 'Oops. Wow, I wonder where the heck he got that gun...?'

Finally, a word on Tazers. Tazers, as we know, send electricity through the body. That causes muscles to tense and/or go into spasms. Apart from pulling the trigger on purpose, I can't think of a better way to get a gun to go off.

I'm no cop fan; I've seen them do some pretty rotten stuff. But as reported, I don't think they had much choice in this one.


From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 16 January 2006 11:54 AM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well if the kid emerged from the washroom pointing the gun, then he left the police with no choice. I hadn't thought about the parents exacerbating the situation - good point.

I do believe that there are other forms of non-lethal force weapons currently in the pipeline as well that may be able to defuse these situations without deaths in the future. Let's hope so.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
anne cameron
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posted 16 January 2006 12:05 PM      Profile for anne cameron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So if Wildlife officers can shoot a dart at a bear and have it fall out of a tree... wouldn't you think , if they WANTED TO, they could develop a non-lethal compound which would do the same thing to a person?
From: tahsis, british columbia | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Américain Égalitaire
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posted 16 January 2006 12:09 PM      Profile for Américain Égalitaire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by anne cameron:
So if Wildlife officers can shoot a dart at a bear and have it fall out of a tree... wouldn't you think , if they WANTED TO, they could develop a non-lethal compound which would do the same thing to a person?

Exactly. Or some kind of gas.


From: Chardon, Ohio USA | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 16 January 2006 12:42 PM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When they have a non-lethal compound that is proven to work utterly reliably, and most important, works instantly-- that is, works in less time than it takes to pull a trigger on yourself or on the cops nearby-- then they'll be in business.
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged

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