babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » USA   » Kerry Won!

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Kerry Won!
radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2777

posted 06 November 2004 03:33 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting article here on voting irregularities in the U.S. election

Kerry Won - tompaine.com


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Tackaberry
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 487

posted 06 November 2004 04:57 AM      Profile for Tackaberry   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Please god let even half of this be true. (Prefererably the Ohio half)
From: Tokyo | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 November 2004 04:58 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah. It was prob'ly fixed.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4140

posted 06 November 2004 08:54 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I used to write a column for the Guardian papers in London. Several friends have asked me if I will again leave the country. In light of the failure—a second time—to count all the votes, that won't be necessary. My country has left me.

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 06 November 2004 11:01 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The thing I find scary is that the exit polls were accurate where voting machines weren't used.

If this distresses you, give money to these folks:

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bernard W
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5735

posted 06 November 2004 11:14 AM      Profile for Bernard W        Edit/Delete Post
Not to be the devil's advocate, but how can we be sure exit polls are accurate?

A lot of folks are not comfortable saying who they support. With all the bad press, how many would rather say they voted for Kerry, if they live in a overwhelmingly democrat precinct, than admit they supported Bush?

Most of my friends vote for the Liberals, but very few will say so. They know it's embarrassing.


From: Algonquin Park, Ontario | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 06 November 2004 11:25 AM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exit Polls are not accurate however they give you an idea if there is a strange massive shift between votes and votes counted.

http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4526/exit_poll.gif

I'm still trying to verify where this data came from, but IF true, this would clearly show serious issues.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 06 November 2004 11:31 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bernard W:
Not to be the devil's advocate, but how can we be sure exit polls are accurate?

A lot of folks are not comfortable saying who they support. With all the bad press, how many would rather say they voted for Kerry, if they live in a overwhelmingly democrat precinct, than admit they supported Bush?

Most of my friends vote for the Liberals, but very few will say so. They know it's embarrassing.


So if what I wrote above is true, your explanation for the discrepancy is...that people are more embarrassed to say how they vote in states where there are voting machines?


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 06 November 2004 11:44 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
With all the bad press, how many would rather say they voted for Kerry, if they live in a overwhelmingly democrat precinct, than admit they supported Bush?
South of the border, I think the opposite would hold true far more often. It takes more courage to stand against the warmongers than to acquiesce to them.

I'm rather certain that more timid southern wives said they voted Bush to avoid hubby's rednecked wrath than northeastern red-blooded Republicans claimed to be Kerry supporters - as they surely do not fear their effete liberal neighbours.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
intheright
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6998

posted 06 November 2004 03:36 PM      Profile for intheright        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bernard W:
Not to be the devil's advocate, but how can we be sure exit polls are accurate?

A lot of folks are not comfortable saying who they support. With all the bad press, how many would rather say they voted for Kerry, if they live in a overwhelmingly democrat precinct, than admit they supported Bush?

Most of my friends vote for the Liberals, but very few will say so. They know it's embarrassing.


I guess at the end of the day Kerry was the wrong guy at the wrong time. hindsight is 20/20 -- but Joe Leiberman should have been the guy. Even Bush says Leiberman may have beaten him. I dont know if Hillary is the answer in 2008. She is an even more polarizing figure the W.


From: Regina | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 06 November 2004 04:00 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I dont know if Hillary is the answer in 2008. She is an even more polarizing figure the W.

Plus, one of the criticisms made of George W. Bush is that his ascension to the predidency marked the onset of a tendency toward "dynasty" in American politics, which does not bode well for a democratic culture. And now there's even talk of Jeb throwing his hat in for the White House some day, and of course the Hillary speculation. I'm not sure if we really want American politics to become an ongoing power struggle between two de facto ruling families.

I'm not a huge fan of things like term limits and other restrictions on who can run for office. However, if I WERE to support such limitations, I think "no members of a politician's immediate family" would be at the top of the list.


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4668

posted 06 November 2004 04:09 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by quelar:
Exit Polls are not accurate however they give you an idea if there is a strange massive shift between votes and votes counted.

http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4526/exit_poll.gif

I'm still trying to verify where this data came from, but IF true, this would clearly show serious issues.


Let us know if you find out more. "Serious issues" is an understatement.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 05:48 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
cnn changed their exit polls to match "actual" voting:

duf analysis complete with screen caps & fuzzy math

edit to fix url

[ 06 November 2004: Message edited by: 'topherscompy ]


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 06 November 2004 06:13 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Yay. 'topher's back.

Where you been?


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 06:17 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
other voting irregularities noticed so far:

franklin county ohio: pdf, see page 23, precinct gahanna 1b votes: bush 4258 kerry 260 total ballots cast: 638

north carolina: 4530 votes "lost"

broward county florida:
"computer glitch" causes reversal of ballot initiative

florida, again:
7588442 ballots cast for president while 7350900 voters turned out (click on "county reporting" on this page to see turnout numbers) a difference of 237522 (note hernando county reports no turnout, but has only 109656 eligible voters)

edit: to clarify turnout link

[ 06 November 2004: Message edited by: 'topherscompy ]


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 06:21 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
i've been around, just been working a lot (and occasionally going to school.)
From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
diebold machines can be (quite literally) hacked by a chimp
From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 06:52 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
warren county, ohio officials fake terrorism threat to count votes in secret

quote:
County officials say they took the action Tuesday night for homeland security, although state elections officials said they didn't know of any other Ohio county that closed off its elections board. Media organizations protested, saying it violated the law and the public's rights. The Warren results, delayed for hours because of long lines that extended voting past the scheduled close of polls, were part of the last tallies that helped clinch President Bush's re-election.

...

Warren County Emergency Services Director Frank Young said he had recommended increased security based on information received from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and the Federal Bureau of Investigation in recent weeks.

Commissioners made the security decisions in a closed-door meeting last week, but didn't publicize the restrictions that were made until after polls closed.



From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 07:13 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
there's tons more irregularities reported, (and tons probably not reported) from florida to new mexico to ohio to all over the place. most are relatively small problems, some involving provisional ballots not being issued properly, long lines and broken machines in primarily minority districts, attempts at voter suppression and intimidation, problems with basic math, problems involving evoting, and absentee ballots vanishing into thin air. i don't know if this all adds up to a kerry victory, or a maybe narrower margin of victory for bush, but for sure they cast doubt on any claim of a "free and fair" election. for all the confidence i have right now in the us electoral system, ralph nader may have actually won by a landslide.

edited: sorry for the multiple postings. please count this all as just one (1) vote for undecided.

[ 06 November 2004: Message edited by: 'topherscompy ]


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 06 November 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, somebody has some 'splaining to do!

Here a link to a DU thread where someone just happened to do a capture of the Ohio exit polls on CNN pre and post update.

taking information from these screen captures, here's what I calculated.

code:
early exit polls:

1963 Respondents:
47% male = 923 ----------> 49% Bush = 452 : 51% Kerry = 470
53% female = 1040 -------> 47% Bush = 488 : 53% Kerry = 551

Total Bush = 940
Total Kerry = 1021


Updated after 1am

2020 Respondents:
47% male = 949 ---------> 52% Bush = 494 : 47% Kerry = 446
53% female = 1071 ------> 50% Bush = 535(.5) : 50% Kerry = 535(.5)

Total Bush = 1029
Total Kerry = 981


Now unless 40 people who had previously told polsters that they voted Kerry returned later to correct their statement, and not one of the additional 57 polled voted for Kerry, then I can't see how there was anything but complete incompetence, or total fraud happening here!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 06 November 2004 07:26 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
cnn changed the exit polling to fit florida as well, but for the rest of the country, their data was quite accurate.

another duf thread
cnn's er, "updated" exit polling


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 07 November 2004 12:24 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I guess at the end of the day Kerry was the wrong guy at the wrong time. hindsight is 20/20 -- but Joe Leiberman should have been the guy. Even Bush says Leiberman may have beaten him. I dont know if Hillary is the answer in 2008. She is an even more polarizing figure the W.

Did you miss the fact that this is a thread about election fraud? What's your opinion on that?

This election, like the last, was clearly stolen.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
drgoodword
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3214

posted 07 November 2004 01:03 AM      Profile for drgoodword   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's an extensive list of links to voter fraud issues:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_vote_fraud.html


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
HellofaSandwich
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5681

posted 07 November 2004 04:52 PM      Profile for HellofaSandwich   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by intheright:

I guess at the end of the day Kerry was the wrong guy at the wrong time. hindsight is 20/20 -- but Joe Leiberman should have been the guy. Even Bush says Leiberman may have beaten him. I dont know if Hillary is the answer in 2008. She is an even more polarizing figure the W.



Are you effin' kidding me? Joey L. is a horrible Democrat - he makes the base feel guilty for being progressive. He's the type of Democrat who wishes he was as cool as the Republicans. On a personal level, he doesn't bring any more appeal than Kerry did.

Agreed on Hillary, though. She would be a disastrous choice.


From: Edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 07 November 2004 05:00 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Check the name -- intheright. He doesn't want any Democrat to win, but if one does, he wants it to one as right-wing as possible.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6194

posted 08 November 2004 12:40 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
in detroit they interviewed some black people, and there was a republican grabbing other peoples ballots even during the interview.. So law suits are coming. It almost erupted into a fistfight on air.
From: Looking at the despair of Detroit from across the river! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Socrates
sock-puppet
Babbler # 6376

posted 08 November 2004 03:04 AM      Profile for Socrates   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, well, don't get your hopes up.

Last election was even more clearly stolen but he got away with it. WE know he stole it - americans are busy "uniting around our 'president' "

Nobody seems to care that the vote might have been rigged.


From: Viva Sandinismo! | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 08 November 2004 03:38 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ya, the CIA have been rigging elections in third world countries for so long that it must be routine for them now.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 08 November 2004 04:14 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Last election was even more clearly stolen but he got away with it. WE know he stole it - americans are busy "uniting around our 'president' "

But the difference is that the vast majority didn't care all that much who won in 2000. Democrats, sensing this indifference, just gave up. This time, though, people really did care and anti-Bush activism is a strong and motivated force. Craven lickspittles that they are, if the Dems sense that this swell of outrage is gaining traction, they'll hop on. Dare I hope that the Bushmeisters have underestimated their opponents?

Of course, the last election furor died down largely because of the WTC attacks. Will there be another attack? Is there anything they won't do to hold their power?


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
miles
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7209

posted 08 November 2004 04:20 PM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
Of course, the last election furor died down largely because of the WTC attacks. Will there be another attack? Is there anything they won't do to hold their power?

j22 you are not suggesting that bush knew about the wtc attack and still let it happen are you?

as far as the election being stolen or not.

if you believe that the election was stolen from the democrats then you had better be mad as hell at kerry for conceding.

now even if evidence was produced, the courts accepted it, the courts ruled to overturn the election...

kerry would be hard-pressed to accept the findings and take the mantle since he said that the election was over.....

in the minds of most americans -- not all-- but most the moment that kerry officially conceded he through away any chance to dethrone bush.

so to paraphrase southpark blame kerry


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 08 November 2004 04:23 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I doubt that Bush has many friends in the CIA right now.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
quelar
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2739

posted 08 November 2004 06:26 PM      Profile for quelar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He probably doesn't have many low level friends a the CIA, but he still has his friends at the top where he needs him (don't forget, Daddy ran it for a while).

As for all of this....I don't believe that Bush won fair and square, but we KNEW about the evoting irregularities before it even happened.

And Kerry conceded without even counting the potential vote (it most likely wouldn't have worked out for him, but there's no guarantees what would have happened.).

What I'm saying is, the Fix was in long ago. Kerry, a pro-war anti-war protester (try to figure that one out), and a Skull and Bones member, vs a war mongering Skull and Bones member.

And now, we wait for another attack to happen on US soil (just wait until these accusations of Fraud make it onto the mainstream media, then *boom*) and then the rally behind the pResident.


From: In Dig Nation | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 08 November 2004 06:28 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm Im thinking that its too late. How much press is voter problems getting in the U.S. now? Front page? Big letters? Nope, kerry gave in and the press isn't really biting except on endless analysis of the problems of the Democrats and what they have to do to win again. (actually The Toronto Star had a good article on this in the Sunday edition)
From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 08 November 2004 06:45 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bacchus:
How much press is voter problems getting in the U.S. now? Front page? Big letters?

From Keith Olbermann's blog at MSNBC:

quote:
...there is a small but blood-curdling set of news stories that right now exists somewhere between the world of investigative journalism, and the world of the Reynolds Wrap Hat. And while the group’s ultimate home remains unclear - so might our election of just a week ago.
...
We will be endeavoring to pull those stories, along with the Warren County farce, into the mainstream Monday and/or Tuesday nights on Countdown. That is, if we can wedge them in there among the news media’s main concerns since last Tuesday...
...
In the interim, Senator Kerry, kindly don’t leave the country.

It could yet get interesting.

From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
libertarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6136

posted 08 November 2004 06:46 PM      Profile for libertarian        Edit/Delete Post
If indeed there are irregularities why do you people insist that they are ALL in favour of Bush?
From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 08 November 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by libertarian:
If indeed there are irregularities why do you people insist that they are ALL in favour of Bush?

If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
libertarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6136

posted 08 November 2004 07:08 PM      Profile for libertarian        Edit/Delete Post
No evidence. Its just fishy. And clearly biased. Who reports these supposed irregularities anyway? Michael Moore?

The Dems are just poor losers, and losers they are.


From: Chicago | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 08 November 2004 07:18 PM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
in detroit they interviewed some black people, and there was a republican grabbing other peoples ballots even during the interview.. So law suits are coming. It almost erupted into a fistfight on air.

That sounds interesting. Do you have a source?


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
sgm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5468

posted 09 November 2004 05:58 PM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FWIW, more allegations of vote-tampering and voter suppression in Ohio, from Bob Fitrakis, a teacher at Columbus State Community College are here.
From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Links2
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7294

posted 10 November 2004 12:38 PM      Profile for Links2        Edit/Delete Post
Of course we can’t assume all these lost or extra votes would have been for Kerry (in the case of
the lost) or Bush (in the case of the extra). All these stories prove is that sticking to old fashioned
paper ballots might be better. And that any amount of problem is a concern when the election is
close. For all anyone will knows, the missing ballots were mostly for Bush and the extra were for
Kerry. Who knows? No one, so it is not possible to say Kerry should have won.

BTW the voter turn out link in topherscompy’s post seems to show 7,623,603 people
turned out while 7,593,029 were “cast for president.” This tells me that 30,574 people either
spoiled their ballots or (I’m not sure if they vote for everyone on one ballot, I think so) some
people just never checked anything for President. Which quite frankly is what I would have done
given the same crappy choice of clowns. In all seriousness though, half a percent is a relatively
low spoil percentage but not far off from what I have seen at polls I worked at in Canada.


From: Outlands | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 10 November 2004 01:14 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
BTW the voter turn out link in topherscompy’s post seems to show 7,623,603 people
turned out while 7,593,029 were “cast for president.” This tells me that 30,574 people either
spoiled their ballots or (I’m not sure if they vote for everyone on one ballot, I think so) some
people just never checked anything for President. Which quite frankly is what I would have done
given the same crappy choice of clowns. In all seriousness though, half a percent is a relatively
low spoil percentage but not far off from what I have seen at polls I worked at in Canada.

those are not the numbers originally posted to the fla state election website. those numbers have been updated, the orig posted numbers are quoted in my above post. presumably, the update has backed in either absentee or early turnout numbers, or both. if that is the case, which makes sense, a lot of confusion could have been avoided by the noting of this on the site in the first place.


in other news, recounts / voting machine audits are coming in new hampshire, launched by ralph nader, and in nevada & ohio, launched by citizen efforts. press conference coming soon.


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3052

posted 10 November 2004 02:09 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by sgm:
FWIW, more allegations of vote-tampering and voter suppression in Ohio, from Bob Fitrakis, a teacher at Columbus State Community College are here.
That is an excellent summary of much of the evidence that Ohio, and the presidency, was stolen by the Republicans. Again. Anyone with a concern about fair elections and fair outcomes should read that article.

Why the FUCK did Kerry just roll over and give up? Why aren't the Democrats -- RIGHT NOW -- preparing legal actions based on this kind of information. Or are they, perhaps, outside of the public eye?

The Democrats should be fighting the bastards tooth and nail, so that even if Bush "won", let the evidence of electoral fraud see the light of day, make it impossible for the mainstream media to ignore it, let the Supreme Court re-elect Bush, and let history judge.

Otherwise, without a fight, Kerry and the Democrats deserve their place on the trash-heap.


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca