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Author Topic: Recall David Emerson petition
JPG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10478

posted 08 February 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for JPG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had this forewarded to me. Seems fair.

Make him face the voters!


From: Toronto/Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 03:35 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is now the THIRD thread where the petition can be found.

Come over here:

Topic: Strategies for dealing with David Emerson


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
JPG
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10478

posted 08 February 2006 03:36 PM      Profile for JPG     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I gambled with lazily not checking to see if there had been an posts on this topic already, and I lost.
From: Toronto/Ottawa | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 03:40 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
LOL that's gambling for ya!

I signed the petition not long ago and its already more than doubled from 435 to almost 900.

CKNW just interviewed me. Tee hee... I'm not going to be a popular Conservative today.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6874

posted 08 February 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
^
HA!

From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 04:15 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was just on the CBC call in show too !
From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 08 February 2006 04:18 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Watkins:
I'm not going to be a popular Conservative today.

Are there any days when you are, at least among other Conservatives?


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 04:21 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not among those that don't engage their brains once in awhile.

edit: my views on Harper etc are well known. Some have decided to park their views and try to keep changing from within.

We really, really, need people to restart their brains in this country and for people to speak out. One thing I've never liked about party politics is the notion that its party first, individual opinion be damned (at least when in power).

IMO the homogenization (perhaps pasturization is a better word) of opinions is one of the greatest threats we face.

[ 08 February 2006: Message edited by: Michael Watkins ]


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 08 February 2006 04:35 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I respect Red Tories more than I respect Liberals, most of the time. Too bad that tradition has been steamrolled by the Conservative-Reform-Alliance Party.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 08 February 2006 05:23 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
It's easier to respect people who never (or rarely) hold power and are never tempted to compromise their principles.

There were certainly more people who respect Stephen Harper last week than this week. Even I, who never thought he had a principle to his name, was shocked at how unconcerned he is even with the appearance of having some.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 08 February 2006 05:34 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There was a strong strain of red Toryism in the Mulroney government, which, for example, was better on women's issues than the Liberal governments it succeeded, according to Judy Rebick. And most of the Ontario welfare state was built under decades of red Tory government. For that matter, the apex of urban planning in Toronto is widely considered to have been under David Crombie, well-known red Tory.
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 05:44 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At a certain leadership convention I was one of those out-shouting, by a large margin, the much bigger group of supporters of the winning, unprincipled, candidate.

Myself and dozens of other supporters on the floor were shouting "principle! principle!" as in:

prince-i-pull!
prince-i-pull!
prince-i-pull!

The other side was yelling back their guy's name or some such thing, I don't recall. For a brief moment they appeared to be able to overwhelm us. Hundreds of people on either side and in the bleechers going at it.

The principled folks redoubled their efforts. I recall seeing a visual effect on the other side... they backed up, overtaken by the passion coming through our side. And on some faces, the look of shame.

Felt good on our side. I'll never forget it.

Organizers, sensing that we'd taken the momentum completely away, and remembering that national TV was broadcasting this live, worked furiously to calm it down.

Of course, its all BS in the end but there really were some excellent people on our side belting it out in one last measure of defiance and victory, even though we lost the race.

I'm not nostaligic for the old party - more correctly I'm saddened that we've lost so much of the good parts of it. With our current two-party power politics to me it was very important to work with the cards dealt and try to change from within.

These days I don't see much hope of people steering the agenda of the CPC to a better course when an utter lack of principle continues to be demonstrated by its leadership.

The election and its aftermath is not the first time we've seen principle go by the wayside.

[ 08 February 2006: Message edited by: Michael Watkins ]


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 08 February 2006 07:11 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Newman and the Duffster are having a field day with this, and also with Fortier. The more significant comments I've heard were these: 1) Emerson can do really good work on the softwood and Olympics files; 2) Harper said he was going to do politics differently - with integrity - and instead turns around and goes back to convenience and cronyism; 3) Harper appears to be determined to do things his way, despite the advice of those around him, in his ruthless pursuit of a majority Conservative government in the next election.

[ 08 February 2006: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 07:17 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its nice to see the popular press *is not* giving Harper a free ride.

edit: At least not a completely free ride, unlike the pre-election free ride he was given.

[ 08 February 2006: Message edited by: Michael Watkins ]


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 08 February 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Travers was scathing yesterday, but, on Newman's show tonight, Travers reported getting bombarded with email critical of his Tuesday column. He defended his position, but it was clear he wasn't prepared for the (negative) reaction he got.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 08 February 2006 07:25 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, and by the way, I've yet to hear anyone in the broadcast media question (challenge) Harper on his choice of Flaherty in Finance or Clement in Health.

[ 08 February 2006: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 08 February 2006 07:26 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Local press here are not letting the issue go.

I could be a cynic and say that's less due to public outrage and more due to it being a relatively big story in an otherwise slow news week. If it weren't for the Emerson bit, the lead story undoubtedly would sunshine we are mercifully having here today.

although public outrage is pretty high


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 08 February 2006 07:30 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC reported this morning his riding association wants $90,000 back from Emerson.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Heavy Sharper
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11809

posted 08 February 2006 07:46 PM      Profile for Heavy Sharper        Edit/Delete Post
Boom Boom, today we are all Liberals!
.
.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.

.
..

.
.
NOT!!!!


From: Calgary | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 08 February 2006 07:48 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
LOL!
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CWW
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9599

posted 08 February 2006 08:04 PM      Profile for CWW     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boom Boom:
[QB]Oh, and by the way, I've yet to hear anyone in the broadcast media question (challenge) Harper on his choice of Flaherty in Finance or Clement in Health.QUOTE]

It's in the mail I'm sure... right now there are just too many easy targets.

They'll get theirs' eventually.


From: Edmonton/ Calgary/Nelson | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
glacier76
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7686

posted 09 February 2006 02:11 AM      Profile for glacier76     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Watkins:
Local press here are not letting the issue go.

I could be a cynic and say that's less due to public outrage and more due to it being a relatively big story in an otherwise slow news week. If it weren't for the Emerson bit, the lead story undoubtedly would sunshine we are mercifully having here today.

although public outrage is pretty high


It's not that slow a news day. The Winter Olympics. The gambling hockey scandal. The cartoon scandal. The twinning of the Port Mann Bridge scandal.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 09 February 2006 10:16 AM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How dare you question my cynicism!

Sure it was a slow *news* day -- from the station's marketing perspective. While the world is in flames and democracy is being usurped here and abroad, of two opening headline stories on one station, one was a bit on cats and dogs being used for fur.

I like animals but good grief!


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
James1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11579

posted 09 February 2006 11:16 AM      Profile for James1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rasmus raven:
I respect Red Tories more than I respect Liberals, most of the time. Too bad that tradition has been steamrolled by the Conservative-Reform-Alliance Party.

Not completely.........

http://www.progressivecanadian.org/


From: NS | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
scooter
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5548

posted 09 February 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JPG:
I had this forewarded to me. Seems fair.
Make him face the voters!


David Emerson will face the wrath of the voters, just like Belinda did...oh...wait...they voted her back in now didn't they.

From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 12:12 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
He will never face the voters in that riding again and everyone knows it.

"He said he briefly considered resigning and might not stand for re-election in his Vancouver riding if his disillusionment with politics deepens." http://tinyurl.com/7lvrh

He's disillusioned with politics?? What a fucking, arrogant hypocritical bastard! It's like O.J. Simpson saying he's angry about criminals going free.


Nice quote from NDP MP Peter Stoffer: "It took the Liberals 12 years to develop a sense of arrogance. It only took the Conservatives 12 seconds to develop that sense of arrogance,"


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9960

posted 09 February 2006 12:37 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
He's disillusioned with politics?? What a fucking, arrogant hypocritical bastard! ...

Nice quote from NDP MP Peter Stoffer: "It took the Liberals 12 years to develop a sense of arrogance. It only took the Conservatives 12 seconds to develop that sense of arrogance,"


Yeah, I loved hearing that quote and Emerson trying to defend his actions this morning on the CBC.

He's demonstrated that he has no principles and no honour what so ever.
So has Harper for asking him to switch.

This guy should be charged with criminal fraud after soliciting and accepting donations to fund his campaign as a Lib, then switching mere days after the election!


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
faith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4348

posted 09 February 2006 12:56 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't tune in for the CBC interview but on Global last night Emerson went on at length about his fundraising on behalf of the riding and the Liberal party of Canada- so therefore it is 'preposterous' to suggest paying back campaign contributions.
Emerson's argument on switching allegiances was basically - Paul Martin is gone, I am a hard worker, I will work to benefit BC so everyone should just appreciate my plan and quit asking questions.
Some questions I thought that would've been useful - Why not run for party leadership now that Paul is stepping down?
- Do you not think that the people of your riding wanted a strong opposition member to keep the Conservatives in line?

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 01:14 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by faith:
I didn't tune in for the CBC interview but on Global last night Emerson went on at length about his fundraising on behalf of the riding and the Liberal party of Canada- so therefore it is 'preposterous' to suggest paying back campaign contributions.

OK, so let me get this straight.

I work for a charity as a very successful fundraiser. In one year I manage to raise half a million dollars, more than anyone else could have.

However, I also steal 50,000 dollars of it, leaving them with $450,000. By Emerson's logic, the charity isn't entitled to that money since they never would have even the $450,000 if not for me.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9960

posted 09 February 2006 01:19 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by faith:
Emerson's argument on switching allegiances was basically - Paul Martin is gone, I am a hard worker, I will work...

...for my own benefit, not yours.

He will never live this down, so he'd better get used to the questions.

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: Transplant ]


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
faith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4348

posted 09 February 2006 01:30 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By Emerson's logic, the charity isn't entitled to that money since they never would have even the $450,000 if not for me.

Yes, exactly.
Transplant I believe you are absolutely right about that - this move by Emerson has all the signs of sticking like mud to his career. He seems genuinely taken aback by the criticism. I wonder if he has ever encountered it before in his working life?

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 09 February 2006 01:32 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by faith:
- Do you not think that the people of your riding wanted a strong opposition member to keep the Conservatives in line?

Exactly. That's what most of the people I know in the riding voted for - either Emerson (lib) or Waddell (ndp) - with zero expectation that either would sit on the government side of the house.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
larva
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6007

posted 09 February 2006 01:49 PM      Profile for larva   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The criticism seems rather partisan. I get the impression conservatives are less impressed with the Fortier appointment.
From: Edmonton | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8238

posted 09 February 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Emerson's attitude reminds me a bit of previous Vancouver mayor Larry Campbell's. When Campbell announced his retirement as mayor (but before being appointed as a Liberal senator), he said that he was "not a politician." By which I think he meant, he had no patience for the messy details of democratic decision-making. Emerson, like Campbell, styles himself as the kind of guy who likes to get things done, but hates the way that differing political views complicate or slow down the process.

He says he plans to run in the next election, but I wonder whether this is true. If he had planned all along not to, his decision would make a bit more sense. I don't think anyone on Babble predicted Emerson would cross the floor, but a few did predict that if re-elected, he'd retire rather than sit in opposition. I think he's planning on going back to the private sector after the next election (and even if he did have further political ambitions, those are pretty much toast now).

By crossing the floor, he can be in cabinet for 3-4 years, and make connections with people in two different parties, rather than "waste" the rest of his time in Ottawa sitting in opposition. From a business point of view, staying in government looks much better on his resume. As such, there's no reason from his point of view that he should heed peoples' calls for him to run in a byelection, although if his constituents are vocal enough to wear him down, he might retire before the next election.


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 01:53 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
He should have resigned his seat and gone to the Senate - because Question Period is going to be positively brutal on him.
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10186

posted 09 February 2006 02:01 PM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it was fairly clear that many Liberal MPs knew the Liberal ship was sinking long before the election was over. It makes me wonder...

/drift

But this whole Emerson thing made me recall something I read on another thread shortly before the election.

Originally posted by Dazzle Me (taken from TDH Strategies website):

quote:
George Drazenovic is a young and bright Tory candidate running in Svend Robinson's old riding for the second time. He pulled in a respectable 12,531 votes last time, competing against the eventual winner Bill Siksay of the NDP who garnered 15,682 votes, and Liberal insider Bill Cunningham, who came in second with 14,748 votes.

As has been reported by other local websites (check out the January 8th post), Drazenovic's campaign has been nowhere up until the past week, forcing the central campaign to step in for complete inactivity. This surprising disinterest struck us as a little suspicious, considering that George was as enthusiastic a candidate as TDH Strategies encountered anywhere in 2004.

Bill Cunningham is one of those Martin kool-aid drinkers with a long history as an organizer within the party. He served for many years as the Liberal Party of Canada's President here in British Columbia, and as soon as Martin took power, secured a nice cushy job as Executive Director and Senior Advisor at the Ministers Regional Office in Vancouver, where he oversaw the staff for the five Cabinet Ministers from British Columbia. As a candidate, Cunningham is getting every possible resource avaiable to him from the central campaign (often to the expense of other less favoured candidates), and has had a steady stream of Cabinet Ministers from across the country coming out to help him.

So what would propel such a formerly excited politcal upstart like Drazenovic to rollover and play dead in the such a winnable election?

George works as Chief Financial Officer for EPOD International Inc., an integrated Energy Services company that on its website claims to be "the leaders in electric power storage systems for the Distributed Generation, Co-Generation, Wind and Solar Power markets." If you go do a Google search like this or this, you will begin to understand that there are huge amounts of federal grant money, particularly through Kyoto related initatives, for alternative energy projects and technologies. Hell, if a company like Ballard, whose fuel cells have been losing money for the past decade, can get millions from the federal government, just about anyone can.

So here is the scene. In the summer, George receives a call from Don Stickney, Cunningham's campaign manager in 2004, asking him to meet Minister David Emerson for dinner to discuss his company, and ways that the Government of Canada might be able to help out. George accepts, and meets the Minister at a Chinese restaurant on Main St., where Emerson is dining with his wife.

Emerson shows great interest in EPOD, and indicates that he thinks the company would be in line for several federal granting streams, largely originating from within Industry Canada. Drazenovic is told that if something was worked out, and an announcement was made, he would have to be featured prominently at the event.

Let TDH Strategies preface this entry with the fact that we do not have a smoking gun, per se, but we encourage any sceptics to ask Stickney, Drazenovic or Emerson to deny that the meeting ever happened. Secondly, we cannot speculate as to whether any firm promises were made, although Drazenovic's non-existent campaign makes us wonder.

The funniest thing about this whole story? The fact that come January 23rd, the Liberals might not have any Ministers left to give out the grants that Emerson was alluding to.


TDH Strategies now says:

quote:
February 6, 2006 - TDH Strategies was called a traitor by some when we exposed a meeting that occurred between David Emerson and Conservative candidate George Drazenovic over potential federal funding for Drazenovic's company (check out our January 12th & 13th postings for that story).

Somehow, that doesn't seem like such a relevent accusation anymore.


Interesting.

Anyway... for more information on this story, or to view several Emerson (as Liberal) quotes (February 7, 2006), visit the site:

http://www.tdhstrategies.com/home.html

He's got quite a few from Hansard that might come in handy for Babblers later on. For example:

quote:
"They are pretending that they support Kyoto. They have never supported Kyoto. They do not support Kyoto and they never will." - April 18, 2005, referring to his new party

"Mr. Speaker, this government has said right from the beginning, I have said from the beginning and my colleague the Minister of the Environment has said from the beginning that we can achieve Kyoto and we can do it while the Canadian economy is made more and more competitive and that means jobs." - February 3, 2005

"Mr. Speaker, I can confirm to the House that those people's thinking is so inconsistent, they should just sit down." - February 4, 2005, once again criticizing his new caucus colleagues

"Mr. Speaker, I really find it difficult to live with this kind of foolishness." - September 26, 2005, in response to a question from Colin Carrie, Conservative MP for Oshawa


/End Drift

As for the petition, I signed it. I also sent the link off to several friends and family while also asking them to pass on the link.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
The Globe and Mail editorial has called on him to resign and run in a by-election:

http://tinyurl.com/8m522 (Link to Google news "back door")

quote:
David Emerson has abused the trust of the voters in the B.C. riding of Vancouver Kingsway. The newly Conservative minister should resign and run again in a by-election, under Tory colours rather than the Liberal ones he sported on Jan. 23. And Prime Minister Stephen Harper should oblige him to do so

From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4348

posted 09 February 2006 02:40 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RB do you think the Conservatives are listening?
If I was a betting person I would bet that the byelection will not happen, they have the power bird in hand and that is better than the 2 ethics birds in the bush.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
They might be listening. This is souring relations with the media and if something isn't done about it soon they may never recover.

I think they may have done themselves out of the post-election bounce in support they'd normally be getting.

I certainly hope they don't do anything about it, mind you. I want their reign to be an unmitigated disaster - as short as Clark's and as disastrous to the party as Mulroney's.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 09 February 2006 02:58 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:

He's disillusioned with politics?? What a fucking, arrogant hypocritical bastard! It's like O.J. Simpson saying he's angry about criminals going free.

He is a petulant child. He is simply proving what women have long argued about patriarchal men - they only look and feel powerful as long as no one questions their right to power.

As soon as you question them, they begin to splutter. They have just presumed for too long. They are totally out of touch; they are not politically competent in a democracy; they are big babies.

My heart bleeds.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 09 February 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“I said during the campaign that I think anyone who crosses the floor ultimately should go back to the people for ratification and I stick by it,” Ontario Conservative Garth Turner told reporters in Ottawa.

Conservative Revenue Minister Carol Skelton, who in the last session introduced a motion to restrict the practice of party-switching, told reporters she does not plan to renew the call when the House resumes.

“That was last year,” she said. “We talked about it, and I decided not to proceed with it. It's one of those matters that is debatable.”


http://tinyurl.com/8yk37


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 09 February 2006 03:03 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, yeah. Ethics - that was so last year, y'know?
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 09 February 2006 03:05 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
skdadl:
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
rabble-rouser
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posted 09 February 2006 03:06 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this business CEO behaviour? Just switch from one company to another, lying to your old company until you are ready to announce the switch?
From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 09 February 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by faith:
I didn't tune in for the CBC interview but on Global last night Emerson went on at length about his fundraising on behalf of the riding and the Liberal party of Canada- so therefore it is 'preposterous' to suggest paying back campaign contributions.
An article in today's Globe and Mail has some arrogant quotes from Emerson on this point:
quote:
"I don't understand why they would go to such bizarre lengths as to raise that kind of issue when in fact I had done so much and raised so much for the Liberal Party," said Mr. Emerson, who admits he feels battered by the outcry that followed his defection and appointment to cabinet this week. ...

"I would like the Liberal Party to contemplate how much they are going to pay back to all of the people who contributed to the Liberal Party because I was out there doing the fundraising for them," Mr. Emerson said after a cabinet retreat near Meech Lake.

"A lot of business people and others in the Vancouver area were supporting the Liberal Party because they were comfortable having me there."


(Empahasis mine.)

The man makes Brian Mulroney look modest by comparison.


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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posted 09 February 2006 03:13 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, but there is nothing fundamentally wrong with crossing the floor. I am extremely opposed to the piece in Ed Broadbent’s “ethics package” that relates to forcing an MP to stand a by-election if he/she decides to switch political affiliation. MPs are leaders and sometimes need to show strong leadership, and occasionally that may mean switching parties if that MP decides it is better for his/her constituents. Making them stand for a by-election takes the teeth out of their leadership capabilities.

I’m not defending the sheer opportunism of Emerson, I think he is quite frankly a tool. But crying for his re-call or asking for a by-election is equally ridiculous.

I also want to point out that Winston Churchill switched political parties three times, between three different parties. True leadership is not bound to partisanship.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 09 February 2006 03:22 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
I'm not opposed to floor-crossing in principle, just like I'm not opposed to running for office in principle.

The fact that both actions can be taken by principled people does not change the fact that they can also be taken by slimy, unprincipled bastards.

Tommy Douglas ran for premier.
Richard Nixon ran for governor.

That doesn't mean that Tommy Douglas was a crook and it certainly doesn't mean that Richard Nixon wasn't one.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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posted 09 February 2006 03:23 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 February 2006 03:26 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone is comparing David Emerson to Winston Churchill?!?

Get a grip.

And I say that as someone who thinks Churchill was often a bastard. But really!


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 03:27 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No where in Canadian political history has a newly elected MP crossed the floor ** before the government is even formed **.

Timeline:

Monday Jan 23 - Election Day, Emerson elected as a LIBERAL, having run a highly partisan campaign, criticising the Conservative campaign platform and denouncing the CPC as a scary "right wing" party that, in Emerson's own words was likely to "savage social programs".

The very next day, Emerson is approached, unknown to us. At some point after that first contact, Emerson makes his decision. Two weeks pass. No government is yet sworn in, Martin's government still technically in power.

Monday Feb 6 - Minutes after Martin officially resigns the government of the day, David Emerson walks into Rideau Hall, having made a new record for crossing the floor.

I am not opposed to crossing the floor but this switch amounts to fraud, whether or not it meets the legal definition. Emerson may be legally correct that he can make a unilateral decision to go against the will of his electorate, but its not right. Doesn't meet any sort of sniff test.

For that reason, I support running a by-election, to be held ASAP.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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posted 09 February 2006 03:29 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Someone is comparing David Emerson to Winston Churchill?!?

No, I am not defending Emerson's actions. I am defending a Member of Parliament's right to switch political parties.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 03:32 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I have no problem with crossing the floor on principled grounds (as in Stronach's case), Emerson did so much too early, and I agree it looks like a fraud perpetuated on the voters. I suspect the anger/pressure will remain on Emerson, and he may just resign in frustration.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 03:35 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The MP has the right to switch parties, but lets not forget that the MP, running for a party, has made what amounts to be a contract between him and his party to represent the party and their policies.

No candidate running for the Liberal or Conservative party would have their nomination papers signed by the party leader if the candidate indicated he would jump ship to the other party immediately after the election if offered a position. But that is in effect what has happened.

Remember, neither Emerson nor Martin nor Harper nor most people within the Liberal or Conservative parties are under any illusions - they know that economic policies between the two parties are largely the same.

So its a matter of trust that you are going to stick up for your party even when the going gets rough.

In the party system we have, a candidate promises to further the goals of the party, not merely be a voice in Ottawa. The candidate is making that promise to his riding association, to his party, and ultimately to the voters if the candidate is nominated.

Emerson violated the trust of an awful lot of people. It may be legal; breaking trust rarely is "right".


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 09 February 2006 03:40 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How does the NDP proposal work?

My understanding is that Parties are an afterthought in the rules of Parliament. If we said Emerson couldn't leave the Liberal party what would that mean? He still could be appointed to the Privy Council and he could still vote his conscience. Could he still be appointed to cabinet? If he couldn't then is a coalition government possible?

I am just saying that what is the effective difference between quiting the Liberals and just saying that I don't feel obligated to follow the Liberal rules (leaving it to the Liberals to kick you out).


From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 09 February 2006 03:45 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Let's NOT forget that Mr Emerson was courted WHILE STILL A FREAKING LIBERAL CABINET MINISTER folks...

Technically, the Liberals weren't done until Mr Harper was sworn in.

The CPC approached Mr Emerson TWO WEEKS AGO or so, while the Liberals were STILL GOVERNMENT (shades of Grewal perhaps?).

Talk about a conflict of interest.

There is NO way Mr Emerson would have been voted in in his riding, seeing as how the CPC candidate finished a DISTANT THIRD in the "horse race". Mr Emerson should have been aware that the voters DIDN'T want a Conservative MP OR Cabinet Minister, for that freaking matter.

His arrogance about NOT returning the NINETY SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS the Liberals spent getting him elected borders on THEFT AND FRAUD.

Where is the RCMP when you need them?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 09 February 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, there's no requirement to be a member of a party to be in cabinet. I'm written about that before the election when Ed Broadbent's proposal has been discussed.

No law could really have prevented this, nor do I think it should be tried.

We, as the public, have every right to express our opinion on what Harper and Emerson did, and to punish or reward them as we see fit.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 09 February 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MPs are leaders and sometimes need to show strong leadership, and occasionally that may mean switching parties if that MP decides it is better for his/her constituents.

In this scenario democracy means nothing, and "leadership" is the only principle to which value is attached.

According to the NDP Ethics package, as I understand it, if you are nominated as a Liberal, you sit as a Liberal. And if they are in opposition, you are in opposition. If you feel like showing "leadership", take the step, and then return to your constituents to see if they approve what you have done.

There may be scenarios which the proposal doesn't address, but I think it is basically workable, and fair.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
grrril
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posted 09 February 2006 04:00 PM      Profile for grrril     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Emerson's email address is

emersd@parl.gc.ca


From: pinkoville | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 09 February 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
If these people jump ship so easily, then why don't the Liberals and Conservatives just coalesce? They could call the new party the "Reformed Liberals".

Crossing the floor like this is wrong. Constituents get screwed and Canadian voters become even more cynical (understandably).


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 09 February 2006 05:24 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
the CBC web page article had this quote
quote:
"If you want to call it arrogance, go ahead, fill the newspaper with it. I don't really care," Emerson told reporters on a conference call on Wednesday night. "I am pursuing the very agenda I got involved to pursue when I was in the Liberal party supporting Paul Martin."

hehe, let the man speak.


From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 09 February 2006 05:30 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
He's right, you know, when he says, "I am pursuing the very agenda I got involved to pursue when I was in the Liberal party supporting Paul Martin."

Is there anyone, anywhere in Canada, doing more right now to boost the fortunes of the Liberal Party?


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 09 February 2006 05:33 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tommie:
No, I am not defending Emerson's actions. I am defending a Member of Parliament's right to switch political parties.

He was not a member, he was a member elect who had just campaigned and won as a Lib.

[Ah, I stand corrected by cdnviking.]

He has made a mockery of the electoral process.

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: Transplant ]


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 09 February 2006 05:41 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by faith:
"If you want to call it arrogance, go ahead, fill the newspaper with it. I don't really care"

In other words, "Fuck You."

Wondeful way for an elected member of parialment to behave.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 09 February 2006 05:43 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I love it.

Has no-one yet told him, "David, when you're deep in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging"?

So much for the general efficiency and slickitude of the Con election campaign lasting into the actual period of governance.


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 09 February 2006 06:10 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, the flameout is spectacular. That's gotta be some kinda record.

And I too read Emerson's "If you want to call it arrogance..." soliloquay as "fuck you!" That quote is going to haunt his days.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 09 February 2006 06:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So is this the first time an elected representative has ever crossed the floor or something? Suddenly, democracy has been made a mockery of?

I think if he'd crossed the floor to the NDP we'd be signing a petition to have his statue commissioned.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
tommie
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posted 09 February 2006 06:23 PM      Profile for tommie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
I think if he'd crossed the floor to the NDP we'd be signing a petition to have his statue commissioned.

Exactly. And Jack Layton would start playing the harp and praising how the NDP is reaching out to the business community. Ed Broadbent would tell us all that this time a by-election is not relevant, because we're just morally superior. Meanwhile, Paul Summerville would be having a massive orgasm somewhere.


From: Canada? | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 06:27 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard a similar quote from Emerson's lips but from one of the other networks:

If they wish to call that arrogance, so be it.

I really do think Emerson was planning on taking over for Gordon Campbell but his handling of this has been abominable, not to mention the error of principle which he willingly made in the first place.

Perhaps my prediction is not far off - if right, there is a lot on the line here for Emerson - his entire future political career - and he might be falling apart under the pressure of it all.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 09 February 2006 06:28 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, lots of Babblers wouldn't want an ex-Liberal in our caucus.

And I for one would be appalled if it happened right after he had run against the NDP, claiming to be "their worst nightmare".


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 06:33 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well it never would have happened now, would it, since the NDP isn't now nor never has been positioned to form government.

Emerson wouldn't cross to the NDP 2 weeks after an election unless he had a nasty bump on the head and due to some bizzare brain injury, turned instantly into a progressive.

It'd be rather like Hitler (ya ya Godwin I know) joining a synagogue.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 09 February 2006 06:35 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
So is this the first time an elected representative has ever crossed the floor or something? Suddenly, democracy has been made a mockery of?

Not like this.

And if we accept it as blandly as you seem to suggest then democracy has not just been made a mockery, but superfluous.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 09 February 2006 06:35 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe Emerson is a deep-cover agent working for the NDP.
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Robert James
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posted 09 February 2006 06:36 PM      Profile for Robert James     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
So is this the first time an elected representative has ever crossed the floor or something? Suddenly, democracy has been made a mockery of?

I think if he'd crossed the floor to the NDP we'd be signing a petition to have his statue commissioned.


That's a bit disingenuous though isn't it?

Crossing the floor is nothing new. Many of us would like it to be restricted - e.g., by compelling potential floor-crossers to resign their seat and run in a bye-election. But that is an entirely different matter.

You see, the crux of the matter is this: what is so galling about Emerson is that he crossed the floor almost immediately after we just had an election - in fact, prior to the House of Commons even sitting. He runs as a Liberal and wins; the Liberals lose the election; Emerson appears to lose his seat in Cabinet; Emerson decides that he does not want to lose the aforementioned privilege; Emerson switches parties; Emerson maintains seat in Cabinet.

This is different than a person crossing the floor because they want to leave their party on an issue of principle; hell, this is even different than a person being lured to cross the floor for a Cabinet position. In Emerson's case, he already WAS a Cabinet minisiter; he simply didn't like the election outcome because he would lose this privilege so he switched. For no other reason.


From: on hiatus | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pogo
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posted 09 February 2006 06:43 PM      Profile for Pogo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have taken people in the past. Federally, I can't think of a time when it was a positive move.
From: Richmond BC | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 09 February 2006 07:05 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is there anyone, anywhere in Canada, doing more right now to boost the fortunes of the Liberal Party?

My thoughts exactly.


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 09 February 2006 07:11 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, he did say he would be the Tories' "worst nightmare."
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 09 February 2006 07:25 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Con MP Garth Turner is now publicly calling for Emerson to resign and run in a byelection, and reports say other Con MPs and party members are grumbling along the same lines. This is turning from a coup into an ethical and political liability for Harper. Good. Looks like we may just get to see MP Paul Summerville after all, just not in St. Pauls.
From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 09 February 2006 07:55 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who can blame the Conservative mps for grumbling? You have a Conservative government that has a very slight hold on power- Canadians are leery of them, the only way to consolidate that power is to run an accountable honest government which is what they professed to be right up until January 24th.
They whipped up the righteous anger against the Liberals and said they would be different - now before they even have a chance to make honest mistakes Canadians are enjoying the spectacle of 3 dubious appointments that were done deliberately.
-Emerson who was probably recruited while he was still running for the Liberals pre Jan 23
-Fortier appointed not elected - total hypocrisy
-Defence Minister -lobbyist for the arms industry
Garth Turner is probably wondering what he is going to say to his constituents, when it really shouldn't be necessary to explain anything. All Harper's moves are so unnecessary and just bad politics.

From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ward
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posted 09 February 2006 08:01 PM      Profile for Ward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Have fun!Total Signatures hit your refresh button.

Top 25 petitionoline


From: Scarborough | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Greeny
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posted 09 February 2006 08:02 PM      Profile for West Coast Greeny     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:
Well, Con MP Garth Turner is now publicly calling for Emerson to resign and run in a byelection, and reports say other Con MPs and party members are grumbling along the same lines. This is turning from a coup into an ethical and political liability for Harper.

Could we see DRC II? Not from this incident alone, but if Harper can't satisfy his entire caucus?


From: Ewe of eh. | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 09 February 2006 08:35 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by obscurantist:
Well, he did say he would be the Tories' "worst nightmare."

And traditionally the way to do that is to be one of their prominent members.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RB:
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Andy (Andrew)
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posted 09 February 2006 08:44 PM      Profile for Andy (Andrew)   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And here I thought that Emerson was a liar at least for this month he's proven to be Harper's worst nightmare.
From: Alberta | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 08:46 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by Transplant:
Well, Con MP Garth Turner is now publicly calling for Emerson to resign and run in a byelection,

Not quite:
I am not demanding the guy resign today, given the fact he has just been handed huge duties and Harper surely had sound reasons for his decision. But it would look very good indeed on David Emerson to say something like this: Yeah, I understand the feeling of those people who are disturbed that I switched parties. I have decided my real home is with the Conservatives, and I am honoured to serve the PM, but I also realize it’s not all my choice. So after I’ve proven my worth in this job, and when the time is appropriate, I will go back to the voters.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 09 February 2006 08:52 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ward that petition is growing very fast - pretty soon it will contain the signatures of more people than those who voted Conservative in the last election.
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Andy (Andrew)
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posted 09 February 2006 08:58 PM      Profile for Andy (Andrew)   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Online petitions mean fuck all.
From: Alberta | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ward
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posted 09 February 2006 09:05 PM      Profile for Ward     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tell that to Tubby Smith
From: Scarborough | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 09:18 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True enough... CTV has underwritten a poll which should come out. If its lopsided enough, and I think it will be, could force Harper's hand.

Here's hoping.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 09 February 2006 09:19 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This was the subject of TVO's Studio 2 lead panel just now. John Ibbitson basically said 'what were they thinking?' Susan Riley thought it would prove fatal to Emerson. But Gilles Paquet, always an unashamed apologist for the Cons, was grasping at straws, blathering on about how Emerson's switcheroo was a sort of prop-rep, enfranchising all those in Vancouver who voted Con but elected not a one. What a hack!
From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 09 February 2006 09:51 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suspect that if this keeps up, the petition will be unnecessary - Emerson will just quit.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 09 February 2006 10:18 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well, Con MP Garth Turner is now publicly calling for Emerson to resign and run in a byelection

Garth Turner is very right-wing...but he's always had democratic principles...and I'll respect him for that.

Some of us will disagree on whether or not "floor crossers" should have to face a by-election. Personally I support the idea.

But I think most of us would agree that someone crossing the floor within a couple of weeks of an election campaign is an absolute outrage.

Belinda Stronach crossing the floor was kind of sleazy...but Emerson? This is sleaze piled on top of sleaze!

No matter what most of us have to say, I think that the folks who can most influence this situation are the residents of Emerson's riding.

If let's say you could get 80-90% of the voters in Vancouver-Kingsway to sign a petition calling for Emerson's resignation and/or a by-election I think it would be impossible for Emerson to stay on as an MP.

I'm not speaking of an "online" petition...they don't have much credibility. I'm speaking of an honest to goodness pen & paper petition...one where you knock on doors and go to shopping malls to collect signatures.

The various election campaigns still have their lists of volunteers. They're still "fresh". Why not ask them for one more favour...and go to work on a petition campaign.

Residents of Vancouver-Kingsway would be able to take pride in being the first group of folks to take down a Harper cabinet minister And I think that Canadians from coast to coast would thank them for it

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: radiorahim ]


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 10:21 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Lord Byron:
I suspect that if this keeps up, the petition will be unnecessary - Emerson will just quit.

Keith Boag on The National ended his piece on this controversy a few minutes ago with the suggestion that Harper may just cut Emerson loose to kill all the bad press he's getting.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 09 February 2006 10:25 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Then he can say, "Well what do you expect from a Liberal and their sense of entitlement."
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 10:27 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was surprised the M. Fortier appointment seems to have got little press (by comparsion), so far as I've heard.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 09 February 2006 10:28 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
radiorahim: but Emerson? This is sleaze piled on top of sleaze!

Perhaps, an excessive gorging metaphor might be appropriate..."an Emersonian Conservative whopper, with extra cheese sleaze"... to describe the ambition without principle of David Emerson. Why should the public put up with such people in public office?

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 09 February 2006 10:35 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

David Emerson will face the wrath of the voters, just like Belinda did...oh...wait...they voted her back in now didn't they.

The difference is that Belinda was elected in '04 despite being a Conservative, whereas Emerson was elected in '06 precisely because he wasn't.

So that pretty much blows the 'strategic voting' argument out the window, eh?


From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 09 February 2006 10:48 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:

Keith Boag on The National ended his piece on this controversy a few minutes ago with the suggestion that Harper may just cut Emerson loose to kill all the bad press he's getting.


If Harper ever wants a majority, he has to cut Emerson loose - this is getting very close to being the defining moment of his incumbency - three days in.

quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I was surprised the M. Fortier appointment seems to have got little press (by comparsion), so far as I've heard.

One affront to democracy at a time, please.
We'll get to M. Fortier in due time.

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 09 February 2006 10:51 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:

If let's say you could get 80-90% of the voters in Vancouver-Kingsway to sign a petition calling for Emerson's resignation and/or a by-election I think it would be impossible for Emerson to stay on as an MP.
[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: radiorahim ]

80-90% is unnecessary - all they need to do is get 23,222 signatures, that is 50% +1 of the total number of voters in the last federal election. That's all the legitimacy you need.

Can it be done?

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 09 February 2006 11:32 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by Screaming Lord Byron:
One affront to democracy at a time, please.
We'll get to M. Fortier in due time.

*snerk*


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 11:37 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:
Residents of Vancouver-Kingsway would be able to take pride in being the first group of folks to take down a Harper cabinet minister And I think that Canadians from coast to coast would thank them for it

Anyone into a protest out front of his constituency office (on Kingsway) tomorrow afternoon (in time for the evening news cycle)?

Needs to be a big protest, during rush hour, with signs done up "Honk If You Want Emerson To Resign"...

I'll join in the fun.

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: Michael Watkins ]


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cpar
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posted 09 February 2006 11:42 PM      Profile for Cpar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe Emerson could offer to re-cross the floor and go back to being a Liberal.
From: kelowna, BC | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 February 2006 11:44 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rasmus raven:
There was a strong strain of red Toryism in the Mulroney government, which, for example, was better on women's issues than the Liberal governments it succeeded, according to Judy Rebick. And most of the Ontario welfare state was built under decades of red Tory government. For that matter, the apex of urban planning in Toronto is widely considered to have been under David Crombie, well-known red Tory.

Yes.

But the underyling ideas about the role of government has been transformed. Keynesian ideological princlpled ruled the core policies of all parties, just as the ideaology of the globalized "free market" has taken root at the heart of mainstream parties, even those that come from "left" traditions such as the NDP, British Labour and the SDP. The advent of Bob Rae or any of the sleazy BC NDP governments of the past while was no accident.

The fact that all parties consistenly share essentially the same base ideological precepts, aside from window triming, shifting with the percieved wisdom of the corporate and business elites, casts a great doubt upon whether or not democracy as practiced in the west, actually is democratic.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 09 February 2006 11:52 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the NDP should recruit Red Tories and rename itself the RTP.

Red Tory Party.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 10 February 2006 12:05 AM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I just got on CKNW this evening as the first caller, on line with the BC Liberal Party President and identified myself as a resident and conservative party worker and agreed one hundred percent with the Liberal's points (which were all valid in this case).

LOL


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 10 February 2006 12:11 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
I agree with the sentiment which predicts that Emerson's only one or two more days of outrage away from the end of his political career.

Which would be a triumph for Canadian democracy.

If this holds up over the weekend, look for an announcement late sunday or on monday morning.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 February 2006 12:12 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Watkins:
Maybe the NDP should recruit Red Tories and rename itself the RTP.

Red Tory Party.


Actually, 60's era Canadian tories are considerably to the left of Jack Layton.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 10 February 2006 12:54 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
I was surprised the M. Fortier appointment seems to have got little press (by comparsion), so far as I've heard.
Don't forget that longtime defense contractor lobbyist -- until last year -- who was made Minister of Defense... what the hell was his name? In an ordinary new cabinet, he'd be a huge controversy, followed closely by the three Harris hacks. But they've all been totally eclipsed by Emerson and Fortier. It's like the shock and awe approach to cabinet-making.

Harper has brilliantly diverted attention from his shitty appointments... by hiding them behind even shittier appointments. It is absolute genius!

[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 10 February 2006 01:07 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wrote on a couple of other threads that once Emerson is gone, then the heat will be riveted on Fortier, then on O'Connor (Defense) then eventually Flahery and Clement will do something outrageous, and let's not forget the tag team of Stock and Toews.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
intelligent universe
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posted 10 February 2006 08:52 AM      Profile for intelligent universe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This electoral abuse initiated by the conservatives (by their own admission) is nothing but a shame and a fraud. If Emerson had initiated it because of some pressing need to protect his constituents according to his conscience and their threatened needs then his actions could have be seen as selfless. Instead, his actions based upon inducements by the conservatives are a selfish pursuit of governmental power and a lack of willingness to respect and respond to the role of loyal opposition given to him by the people of Canada and his constituents. By his actions he is saying that the role of a loyal opposition is an unworthy one and of no use to his constituents and the people of Canada. This of course cannot be right and he should acknowledge his error, apologize and run in a bye-election to correct this deep wound to the democratic will of Canadians. Emerson's unwillingness to fulfill this very necessary responsibility and the conservatives desire to cover up their electoral weaknesses has led to an unprecedented ethical fraud that deserves the deepest corrective action possible - a bye election must be called.
From: Drayton Valley | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 10 February 2006 11:42 AM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Actually, 60's era Canadian tories are considerably to the left of Jack Layton.

As were more than a few Liberals, and the NDP then as well.

What's most disturbing to me about the demise of the Progressive Conservative Party is that the notion of government working as a force for the common good has all but disappeared in the new entity. Red and otherwise progressive Tories were a sizable force within the party while the PC Party meandered in the wilderness.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
In Exile
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posted 10 February 2006 12:10 PM      Profile for In Exile     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Pogo:
We have taken people in the past. Federally, I can't think of a time when it was a positive move.

That's true. Over the decades, the NDP has been strengthened by taking in people who made principled moves into the NDP, but the ones who've turned out best are ones who did so _before_ running for Parliament under the NDP banner (Pauline Jewett anyone?).

The last parliamentary defector that was accepted into the federal NDP caucus that I recall was Robert Toupin, a disgruntled Quebec tory weirdo who had been thrown on the beach by the Mulroney wave in 1984. Turned out well too...stayed in the party and caucus less than a year before denouncing the NDP as a nest of Marxists and moving onto final obscurity in the farthest corner of the HoC.

So between that sorry history and the contemporary optics of it all, I doubt very much that the NDP would have welcomed Emerson, even if a serious brain injury had led him to the federal caucus's door.

[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: In Exile ]


From: Boston, MA | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 10 February 2006 12:38 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually, 60's era Canadian tories are considerably to the left of Jack Layton.


How do you figure that? In the 60s not even the NDP favoured abortion rights or SSM and the bulk of the Tory caucus at the time was mainly motivated by a) the monarchy and the Red Ensign, b) opposition to bilingualism and c) executing as many people as possible.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 10 February 2006 01:07 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think he means on economic issues, progressive taxation and vision about the role of government in the economy. On these issues, Tories like Robert Stanfield, Dalton Camp, and (in Ontario) John Robarts and Bill Davis had views that would be quite comfortable in today's NDP, or even to the left of it, because since then the whole political spectrum has shifted to the right.

Social issues (broadly defined) like GLBT rights, abortion and capital punishment were a whole 'nother story. On some of those issues, there WERE true "progressives" within the PC party, but of course there were many "regressives", as well. It was probably not uncommon to find PCs who were opposed to abortion, in favour of capital punishment, hated gays, loved the monarchy, and at the same time believed in strong public services like public education, public health care, public broadcasting, building infrastructure, social programs to reduce poverty, and favoured corporate tax rates and marginal tax rates on the highest income-earners that not even the NDP would dream of proposing these days.

[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Stockholm
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posted 10 February 2006 05:32 PM      Profile for Stockholm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It was probably not uncommon to find PCs who were opposed to abortion, in favour of capital punishment, hated gays, loved the monarchy, and at the same time believed in strong public services like public education, public health care, public broadcasting, building infrastructure, social programs to reduce poverty, and favoured corporate tax rates and marginal tax rates on the highest income-earners that not even the NDP would dream of proposing these days.

Nowadays i think that socially conservative Liberals like Wappell and O'Brian see themselves that way.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
V. Jara
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posted 10 February 2006 05:52 PM      Profile for V. Jara     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have emailed Emerson, the PMO, and the Tory cabinet minister for the riding I'm in asking Emerson to resign and face a byelection.

I have emailed Garth Hunter and Myron Thompson thanking them for their comments about the integrity of Emerson's move.

I have emailed James Moore saying that in my opinion he would make a more representative Conservative Vancouver cabinet minister than Emerson.

Other than letters to the editor, have I forgotten anyone?


From: - | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 February 2006 06:08 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Emerson may well be a dead duck because of his betrayal of the voters.

The focus should go to Harper, who accepted this betrayal, in fact, he enabled it.

As Brian Mulroney once said: "You had a choice, sir. You could have said 'no'."


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
peterjcassidy
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posted 10 February 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for peterjcassidy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bernard Shapiro, Ethics Commissioner, now that Peter Julian of the NDP has requested an investigation based on the Grewal ruling-"if he had been offered an inducment to cross the floor..."

http://tinyurl.com/cwnnt

quote:
Originally posted by V. Jara:
I have emailed Emerson, the PMO, and the Tory cabinet minister for the riding I'm in asking Emerson to resign and face a byelection.

I have emailed Garth Hunter and Myron Thompson thanking them for their comments about the integrity of Emerson's move.

I have emailed James Moore saying that in my opinion he would make a more representative Conservative Vancouver cabinet minister than Emerson.

Other than letters to the editor, have I forgotten anyone?


[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: peterjcassidy ]


From: Screaming in language no-one understands.. | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 10 February 2006 06:42 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Vancouver area folks, come out tomorrow:

edit to correct URL: Public forum / rally to demonstrate opposition to Emerson crossing - tomorrow (Saturday Feb 11 1-3pm) at Charles Tupper

[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: Michael Watkins ]


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mike N
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posted 10 February 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Mike N        Edit/Delete Post
"Vancouver Kingsway Conservative Kanman Wong says he had a backup plan to step aside for controversial new cabinet minister David Emerson - long before January's election.

"That was my plan. I heard lots of rumours that Mr. Emerson wasn't happy with the Liberal party long before the election," Wong said in an interview yesterday. "If one day Mr. Emerson prepared to cross the floor I was ready to step aside for him.""

Report here: http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/News/2006/02/10/pf-1434834.html


From: Greenwood | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 10 February 2006 08:10 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for that, Mike. So Emerson was unhappy with the Liberals "long before the election"?.

That makes his actions even more redolent of fraud.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
faith
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posted 10 February 2006 08:28 PM      Profile for faith     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And if the Conservative candidate had an actual plan to step aside who approved that plan?
From: vancouver | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 10 February 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jeff house:
Emerson may well be a dead duck because of his betrayal of the voters.

The focus should go to Harper, who accepted this betrayal, in fact, he enabled it.

As Brian Mulroney once said: "You had a choice, sir. You could have said 'no'."


That's the line to finish the job. It has to be used to Harper - absolutely has to.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 10 February 2006 09:34 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mike N:
"That was my plan. I heard lots of rumours that Mr. Emerson wasn't happy with the Liberal party long before the election," Wong said in an interview yesterday. "If one day Mr. Emerson prepared to cross the floor I was ready to step aside for him.""

Not like Kanman had a hope in hell of winning.

Rather surprised he'd open his peep hole after all the press on this one.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Centrist
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posted 10 February 2006 10:27 PM      Profile for Centrist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Something a 'lil more concrete - an opinion poll.

Commissioned by BC-CTV and undertaken by the Mustel Group for the riding of Vancouver-Kingsway.

Sample Size: 202;
Error Margin: 6.9%;

Should a by-election be held in Vancouver Kingsway?

Yes: 61%
No: 23%
Undecided: 16%


From: BC | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 10 February 2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not good enough. We've got to get 75% in a poll to force him out. Let's hope the pressure mounts over the weekend.

[ 10 February 2006: Message edited by: Screaming Lord Byron ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 10 February 2006 10:31 PM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its extremely close to 75% of the decided vote. I bet anybody who is undecided simply isn't paying attention.
From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 10 February 2006 10:39 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose we should factor in people who are simply sick of elections.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 10 February 2006 10:59 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Regardless of whether Emerson resigns or not, I hope people pay attention to the political hijinks in Ottawa, because there's going to be a hell of a whole lot more to get upset about.

Don't forget, Flaherty and Clement are in Cabinet, as well as Toews, Doris Day, and O'Connor. And, the House convenes in April, and there'll be a budget at some point, and a hell of a lot of Conservative outrages to come. This is going to a very, very angry political year.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 10 February 2006 11:18 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Centrist:
Something a 'lil more concrete - an opinion poll.

Also from that poll: Would you vote for Emerson if he ran as a Conservative? No: 76% (from memory)


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 10 February 2006 11:20 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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