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Author Topic: Jack Layton used a Private Health Care Facility?
James1
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posted 12 January 2006 09:15 PM      Profile for James1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I just hear Mike Duffy say that Mr. Layton is alleged to have used private health care?

I'm not trying to start a rumble, I'm not even sure I heard him right, but if that's the case........


From: NS | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
BCastro
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posted 12 January 2006 09:21 PM      Profile for BCastro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: BCastro ]


From: Halifax | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 12 January 2006 09:38 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah - I saw it on Global as well. Libby looked puzzled when Mike Duffy asked her about it on his program.

Link

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: stupendousgirlie ]


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Euhemeros
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posted 12 January 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for Euhemeros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've used a private clinic before. Real nice.

Of course, I didn't have a choice as the government doesn't fund wisdom teeth removal.


From: Surrey | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
primary
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posted 12 January 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for primary        Edit/Delete Post
Layton used private clinic
From: Windsor | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagnaf
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posted 12 January 2006 09:41 PM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
My understanding is that he didn't realize it was a private facility; in fact, I believe he used his Ontario Health Care card at the clinic, furthering his belief that it was part of the public system.

Nothing to see here; move along people.


From: Alberta | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 12 January 2006 09:42 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hay will be made of it, bring on the trolls....
From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 12 January 2006 09:42 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some reason I find it hard to avoid thinking of him as Dike Muffy. Just rolls off the tongue better, somehow.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
primary
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posted 12 January 2006 09:42 PM      Profile for primary        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah he states he used his health card, but than it would have been covered by the provincial government. Something I thought Jack was against?
From: Windsor | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
JeffWells
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posted 12 January 2006 09:43 PM      Profile for JeffWells     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the CP story (jeesh, is this their best shot?):

NDP Leader Jack Layton, who's campaigning as the defender of public health care, had surgery at a private clinic in the 1990s, The Canadian Press has learned.Layton had hernia surgery at the Shouldice Hospital, a private facility in the Toronto suburb of Thornhill, while he was serving as a Toronto city councillor.

The NDP leader said he wasn't aware the clinic was private when he went for his surgery in the mid-1990s.

"It's just part of the system,'' Layton said in an interview. "The doctor says, `Go there.' You pay with your (Ontario health) card. It never occurred to me (it was) anything other than medicare, which it is.

"I can tell you now if my doctor ever refers me anywhere, I'll ask him that question. It never occurred to me at the time, it wasn't a controversy at the time. It wasn't something on one's mind."

Layton stressed that the Shouldice facility is a not-for-profit facility that has been part of the Ontario medical system for decades.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 12 January 2006 09:47 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This bigger story is/will be how the NDP will spin this in the way of a response. Bad response looks weak and hypocritcal, let's see where this goes...
From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 12 January 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even I know that the Shouldice Hospital is a private health care facility.

Mr Layton should have known that. I have known that for since the early 1990's.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 12 January 2006 09:49 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So maybe the media will run with this on the, "it was common knowledge that it was a private health care clinic" thing....
From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Loretta
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posted 12 January 2006 09:50 PM      Profile for Loretta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He probably didn't realize that the facility was outside the public service sector. At that time, these issues weren't recognized or even given any public profile.

I don't know how many people I know who are referred for lab work or X-rays on letterhead with the address of a private facility on it either don't know it's a private facility and/or don't realize they don't have to go to that facility. They believe their doctor is directly referring them to that facility and so they go.

I'm sure there are few of us that could say we've never, never in our lives, used a private facility. Frankly, most of us won't know some of the times that we have inadvertently done so and some of us just need to use the facilities made available to us (those who live in rural areas with little option, for example).


From: The West Kootenays of BC | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
primary
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posted 12 January 2006 09:52 PM      Profile for primary        Edit/Delete Post
I can understand the average citizen not knowing. But a sitting city councillor?
From: Windsor | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
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posted 12 January 2006 09:54 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Freak Dominion is having fun with it...

Under the glamorous heading:

"Jack Layton is a stinkin' hypocrite"

Losers..


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Webgear
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posted 12 January 2006 09:54 PM      Profile for Webgear     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Shouldice Hospital Website"

"Shouldice Hospital, the house that hernias built, is a converted country estate which gives the hospital a 'country club' appeal."

"Dr. Edward Earle Shouldice graduated from the University of Toronto in 1916. By 1940, Dr. Shouldice was operating a private medical and surgical practice, lecturing at the University of Toronto, and pursuing research work in areas of advancing medical knowledge."

"Shouldice Hospital has been dedicated to the repair of hernias for over 55 years. Our success rate has long been the benchmark for the medical profession internationally. Success sometimes breeds imitation. We often hear of institutions or associations proclaiming to be performing the "Shouldice Technique" or the "Canadian Method", as if it were a secret formula that has been smuggled out of Thornhill."

I find it hard that Mr Layton did not know about this place operating in Toronto's backyard.


From: Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 12 January 2006 09:54 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
What's the big deal? How is this different from going to a doctor in private practice, funded by OHIP?
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
island empire
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posted 12 January 2006 09:55 PM      Profile for island empire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
For some reason I find it hard to avoid thinking of him as Dike Muffy. Just rolls off the tongue better, somehow.

oh no, you're going to get it.


From: montréal, canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
primary
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posted 12 January 2006 09:56 PM      Profile for primary        Edit/Delete Post
So is the NDP for having the government paying for individual going to private clinics? Also didn't Jack say he would rather wait to go to a public hospital instead of going to a private one which is much quicker?
From: Windsor | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 12 January 2006 10:02 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
FWIW, my mother had surgery at the Shouldice clinic decades ago. They told her to go there and she went.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
SteelCityGuy
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posted 12 January 2006 10:03 PM      Profile for SteelCityGuy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The spin from Jack should have started a long time ago.

Something like this:

You know, the amount of private delivery of health care is rising and often you don't even know that it is private care you are getting. I was once referred to the Shouldice Clinic for surgery. I had no reason not to think it wasn't a public clinic - they even took my health card. I later learned it wasn't part of the public system.

As Prime Minister I will first make it completely transparent that private clinics are private and then, over X number of years, will eliminate such private clinics.

Keep public health care public.

Your health card, not your credit card.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Euhemeros
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posted 12 January 2006 10:10 PM      Profile for Euhemeros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I actually thought of something more worrying than Mr. Layton going to a private clinic: where would someone get the kind of information that a person had X kind of surgery at place X? Aren't medical records private?
From: Surrey | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 January 2006 10:14 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
Even I know that the Shouldice Hospital is a private health care facility.

Mr Layton should have known that. I have known that for since the early 1990's.


And Mr Layton knew it, too. Shouldice is public-private hospital. It's not an entirely "private" hospital. "Private hospital" in the Canadian and European sense of the term means all private, including the cash-for-services rendered end of it. There are also emerging ideas for health care deliver in Europe referred to as public-public partnerships due to the fact that the OECD nations are realizing that full privatization of health care services is not the answer to rising health care costs there at the same time.

quote:
The Shouldice Hospital is another example of a public-private partnership. It is a private hospital that was established in 1945 and is owned by the Shouldice family and is licensed bythe Ministry of Health. The hospital performs hernia operations exclusively. The hospital was “grandparented,” along with others, as a private hospital by Ontario’s Private Hospitals Act in 1973 as Ontario moved to public medicine. Article 3(1) of the Act specifies that hospitals whose licenses were issued before October 29, 1973 only would continue to stay in existence.

Shouldice

And the reason why Jack and anybody else with a hernia would want to be operated on in Canada and at the Shouldice Hospital is that Dr. Shouldice originally pioneered this method, "the Shouldice method", of hernia repair. They have plenty of American's who go there too because they know they'll have good results.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 12 January 2006 10:18 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
I don't give a shit if he happened to use one or not. Why the fuck is the NDP leader always expected to walk on water anyways? Meanwhile, the other parties are allowed to do whatever they want to (i.e. steal, advocate bigotry etc). I also heard he stayed at a hotel that was not unionized. Wait...this just in...Jack Layton's pooh smells. Details at 6pm.
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 12 January 2006 10:20 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
What's the big deal? How is this different from going to a doctor in private practice, funded by OHIP?
That's a good point. A medical practice is pretty much a private business that has its expenses and its revenues - with (almost) 100% of its revenues coming from the public health care system. The shouldice clinic works in exactly the same way: a not-for-profit business that has expenses and gets most of its revenue from the public health care system.

I would also add that this is consistent with Layton's position stated earlier in the campaign (which was viewed by many as a gaffe). He didn't say that private clinics were always wrong or should be banned; he said that they were around when the public health care system started, and that he would stop the growth of them by stopping funding to new clinics, ensuring that doctors don't work in both private and public systems, and a variety of other measures.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Albireo ]


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 12 January 2006 10:25 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Layton stressed that the Shouldice facility is a not-for-profit facility that has been part of the Ontario medical system for decades.

Layton's right.

I had hernia-repair surgery at Shouldice last October and paid for it with my health card.

What they do at Shouldice is put you in a semi-private room and charge the same rate a public hospital would if you requested semi-private.

All the medical care is 100% paid for by OHIP.


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 January 2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
What a NON-ISSUE! Paul Martin not only uses private health care, he avoided paying his Canadian taxes which allow the majority of us plebes to get any fukkin' health care at all. (Not to mention all the fukkin' hacking and slashing he's done to funding for all kinds of health-related social programs, from the time he was a lowly finance minister and usurper-in-waiting right up to today.) And Harper would be even worse.

If this is the best the Liberals and Conservatives can do, it's pathetic.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 12 January 2006 10:29 PM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder who started stirring this up? It must be the Liberals, as they have the most to gain from anything that seems to discredit Layton. They are pretty desperate, as well.

You don't expect a party at 16-18% in the polls to be a target like this, so I guess it's nice that somebody cares enough about the lil' old NDP.


From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alberta Observer
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posted 12 January 2006 10:30 PM      Profile for Alberta Observer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Careful everyone.
You are making good points to convince yourselves that this shouldn't be a big problem for Jack, but
as the Liberals are learning(painfully) optics is everything.
Many New Democrats have been hard edged about no compromise on private clinics and surgical facilities.
Now the leader is found to have used one.
Remember all the shots at Paul Martin for using a doctor who also has a private clinic.
Everyone said he knew or should have known.
Shouldice is well known as a private facility grandfathered into the public system.

From: Red Deer | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 January 2006 10:31 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Euhemeros:
I've used a private clinic before. Real nice.

Of course, I didn't have a choice as the government doesn't fund wisdom teeth removal.


Is this another Liberal piece of wisdom you're sharing with us?. What country in the world does provide universal dentistry coverage besides Cuba ?. Dentistry is a sham the world over.

Tommy Douglas originally wanted dental and vision covered under Saskatchewan's medicare and paid for by potash and uranium exports. It was either the liberals or conservatives in that province couldn't help but hand-off the potash to their wealthy American friends though.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
BigLebowski
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posted 12 January 2006 10:32 PM      Profile for BigLebowski     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
What a NON-ISSUE! Paul Martin not only uses private health care.....
[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]

Umm were talking about Layton's hypocrisy, if you want to bring up Martin's alleged tax evasion start a new thread...


From: Montreal | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 12 January 2006 10:37 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BigLebowski:

Umm were talking about Layton's hypocrisy, if you want to bring up Martin's alleged tax evasion start a new thread...



No, you weren't. You were attempting to smear Layton with charges of alleged hypocrisy. It's utter bullshit.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 January 2006 10:37 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alberta Observer:
.
Shouldice is well known as a private facility grandfathered into the public system.

No, Shouldice is well-known to be a public-private hospital operationg within OHIP guidelines. It has been for many years. They're not rejecting Ontarian's because they can't afford to pay as would happen in the USA where private hospital means private hospital, including the for-profit pay as you go scheme for funding.

For all you undiscriminating liberal and conservative cheer leaders, there's a diff between Medisys Health Group, a for-profit health care organization and operating a chain of private MRI clinics, and Shouldice Hospital, a public-private hospital in Ontario that does not operate as a chain and does not have a "CEO."

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 12 January 2006 10:39 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
I wonder who started stirring this up? It must be the Liberals, as they have the most to gain from anything that seems to discredit Layton. They are pretty desperate, as well.

It's the neo-Cons. The Neo-Cons are always telling everyone how private healthcare is already a part of Medicare in Canada and there's nothing wrong with having more. As long as Layton is NDP leader the Neo-Cons will remind everyone that "if Layton used private health care - why shouldn't everyone else be allowed to?"

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: JKR ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
up
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posted 12 January 2006 10:40 PM      Profile for up     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is a huge problem.


Are you forgetting Layton made a huge stink about public dollars going to private hospitals??

this is the whole thrust, the whole plan, to avoid privitizaiton. Keeping public dollars public.


From: other | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 12 January 2006 10:45 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by up:
This is a huge problem.

Politically it is a huge issue but it shouldn't be. Layton and the NDP are the strongest advocates of publicly managed healthcare. But elections aren't about the truth. They're about beer and popcorn and military occupations of cities.

The neo-Cons are winning this election because it was never based on issues.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 12 January 2006 10:45 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
Walk on water Jack!!
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sharon
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posted 12 January 2006 10:47 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Walk on water Jack!!

But (old joke alert) wouldn't they then say, Jack Layton can't swim!


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 12 January 2006 10:50 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Remember all the shots at Paul Martin for using a doctor who also has a private clinic.
Everyone said he knew or should have known.
Shouldice is well known as a private facility grandfathered into the public system.

Did you read my post, dude? Regardless of whether or not Shouldice is "well known" as a private facility, I just had surgery there late last year. How can you call it private if the medical care is 100% paid for by the provincial health plan?
quote:
The neo-Cons are winning this election because it was never based on issues.

Elections never are.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Sineed ]


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
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posted 12 January 2006 11:04 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this a common occurence - hospitals that have both public and private components? Is this not what was being discussed when it was said that Tommy Douglas et al had allowed a small private component within medicare from the get-go?
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alberta Observer
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posted 12 January 2006 11:04 PM      Profile for Alberta Observer   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sineed

You just helped make my point.

Ralph Klein has tried to argue that the private surgery clinics are not really private as the costs are covered 100% by Alberta Healthcare (frills and luxeries not included).

A lot of public health care advocates have argued that these clinics are just the thin edge of the wedge and are laying the ground work for a parallel private system.

Incidentally, most of the "cheaper" procdures have turned out to be a lot more expensive than the costs in a purely public hospital.

The Kleinikins and private health care advocates will now say that Jack Layton has just helped make their arguments for them.
It is also consistent with what Stephen Harper now says his health care position is (doesn't matter who owns it so long as public dollars pay for it).

In terms of optics, also look at the lead to the Canadian Press story " Canadian Press has learned", like they just discovered some dirty little secret.

Again, optics is everything and some very powerful forces are going to do what they can to make Jack look very bad on this one.


From: Red Deer | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
eau
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posted 12 January 2006 11:11 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
Mountains out of mole hills. If Layton did not write a large cheque for it, and it was paid for my by the provincial system,does it matter in which building he had the surgery? He had a hernia, he got it fixed, problem solved.
From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 12 January 2006 11:13 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, so Jack "sinned" and went to a clinic that wasn't 100% public 10 years ago ... so that's the level the neo cons want the bar set?

So, now that we have this "Jack didn't use 100% public health care once in his life" issue out of the way, let's move on to some of the hypocrisies of Harper ... I'll start it off.

Harper once, when pushed, came very close to almost admitting he loves Canada, yet he spoke at a meeting in Montreal and called Canada a 2nd rate country and a banana republic.

Now keeping in mind where the neo cons are setting the bar, what is worst, hypocrisy over a hernia operation, or disloyalty to the country by a wannabe Prime Minister?

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
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posted 12 January 2006 11:14 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
This place predates medicare by decades. Should it have been closed down?
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 January 2006 11:15 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conservatives are grasping at the straws to try to catch Layton in error and conveniently take the embarrassing spotlight from this guy:

Derek Seizman who faces charges of smuggling alcohol and a luxury car into B.C.
Derek Seizman who faces charges of smuggling alcohol and a luxury car into B.C.
Derek Seizman who faces charges of smuggling alcohol and a luxury car into B.C.

He would have been in the Harper cabinet IF HE WASN"T CAUGHT. This is the 'tough Law and Order' conservatives for you. It's 'tough Law and Order ' for the rest of us except themselves.

This Jack thread is a diversion folks. Don't let the cons frame the debate. Take control of yourselves.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 12 January 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Shouldice Clinic has been around since the 1940's and it's a "non-profit" clinic..."non-profit" being the operative word.

In the past the NDP has supported non-profit free standing abortion clinics for example. I see nothing wrong with that.

Most hospitals are run by non-profit foundations.

What I oppose is government funding for "for profit" healthcare.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 12 January 2006 11:18 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How did this information appear? Aren't people's health care records private?

Clearly it appeared so that "hypocrite" could be screamed. I think those who put forward this as part of an election campaign are utterly empty of integrity.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: a citizen of winnipeg ]


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 12 January 2006 11:21 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
Now that the Neo-Cons have attacked the NDP, will the NDP return the favour?

There is so much to go after in Harper's neo-Con past. Considering how many seats the NDP can take from the Cons in the West, I think it's time to go after Harper and his radical neo-Con ideology.

And Layton can clear this up by simply pointing out that he supports public health care and the Cons don't.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 12 January 2006 11:23 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, give the neo-cons this one, Jack should apologize for his "sin", publicly state how sad it is that the Conservatives have set the bar this low, and start demanding public apologies for some of Harpers past indiscretions. They can't hold Jack to something this minor that happened 10 or more years ago, and then dismiss questions about their words and activities from 5 or 6 years ago.

Remember, the Cons are covered head to toe in shit, let them try and point out the scuff mark on Jacks shoe and claim that this disqualifies him from power. We can then hold a full length mirror in front of them and ask what the hell is that all over your body?

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
mary123
rabble-rouser
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posted 12 January 2006 11:25 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by a citizen of winnipeg:
How did this information appear? Aren't people's health care records private?

Clearly it appeared so that "hypocrite" could be screamed. I think those who put forward this as part of an election campaign are utterly empty of integrity.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: a citizen of winnipeg ]



Yup evidence of the Harper Cons not respecting the Canadian people's right to privacy just like George Bush trampling on people's right to privacy in the United States.

Stephen Harper dirty tactics already at work. Shame on you and your team Stephen to stooping to looking into people's private and confidential medicals records. What next tax and embarrass all women who bought birth control pills?

This is dirty tactics on the part of Stephen harper and his campaign team.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: mary123 ]


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 12 January 2006 11:28 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Webgear:
Even I know that the Shouldice Hospital is a private health care facility.

Mr Layton should have known that. I have known that for since the early 1990's.


Well, I was in Toronto in the 90s, and I didn't know it. In fact, I've never even heard of it. If I'd been referred there, I'd have done exactly what Layton did, and I'd have gone there.

~~

quote:
Layton stressed that the Shouldice facility is a not-for-profit facility that has been part of the Ontario medical system for decades.

It was originally set up for veterans returning from the Second World War and was grandfathered into the Ontario medical system, he said.


The same could be said by any hospital named after a saint - most of them are Catholic hospitals now run as private not-for-profits within the public system.

Have you been to St Mikes or St Margarets? They both owned and operated as an NFP by a Catholic-flavoured board of trustees.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 12 January 2006 11:31 PM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a lot of things to say about neo-cons, but this one is not their doing. This has LIBERAL written all over it.

We are threatening at least four Liberal seats in BC. Also, in the bigger picture, it makes no sense for the CPC to do this. Bringing down the NDP doesn't help them, on balance.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Privateer ]


From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 12 January 2006 11:34 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And even the Shouldice, according to managing director Alan O'Dell, is effectively a non-profit institution. As with any other hospital, its money comes from the Ontario government. And after paying all costs (including a modest return to the two shareholders - both children of the clinic's founder), any extra profit is returned to the province

Thomas Walkom
http://tinyurl.com/cohwu

btw, Paul Martin's favourite private for-profit clinic, Medisys Health Group Income Fund, is traded on the TSX, symbol MHG.UN


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 January 2006 11:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't even get why this is an issue at all.

quote:
Layton stressed that the Shouldice facility is a not-for-profit facility that has been part of the Ontario medical system for decades.

It was originally set up for veterans returning from the Second World War and was grandfathered into the Ontario medical system, he said.

Layton pointed out he has been aiming at curtailing the growth of for-profit health-care facilities on the federal election campaign.


If it's a not-for-profit centre where you can get your surgery 100% paid for by your health card, then that's what we want, right? I just don't get what the problem is. He didn't pay out of pocket to jump the queue to get private care. He went to a non-profit facility and paid with his health card. What's the issue here?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 12 January 2006 11:36 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Again, optics is everything and some very powerful forces are going to do what they can to make Jack look very bad on this one.

I can't disagree with you there. But I also think there is a difference between a not-for-profit clinic that was built in the 1940s and "grandfathered" into the current system, and building new ones. New privately-owned clinics may well fall under NAFTA, opening the door for American healthcare corporations to start operating up here.

And would these private clinics be not-for-profit?

I think Jack is right to rail against private clinics because of the NAFTA question, but his mistake was casting the issue in an ideological light. The reality is that medical care isn't 100% paid for in this country, and Jack's rhetoric suggests that it is. Lots of things aren't covered, as anybody who has gone to a hospital knows.

We like our politicians to have principles but these same principles trip them up sometimes.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Sineed ]


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Euhemeros
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posted 12 January 2006 11:38 PM      Profile for Euhemeros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is this another Liberal piece of wisdom you're sharing with us?. What country in the world does provide universal dentistry coverage besides Cuba ?. Dentistry is a sham the world over.

What do you mean "another Liberal piece of wisdom"? It was medically necessary surgery.

Second question: NHS. They don't cover all of it, though.


From: Surrey | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 January 2006 11:39 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think Layton ever suggested that health care is 100% paid for in this country. He has said that he WANTS it to be.

So what are we supposed to do in this imperfect world in the meantime before health care is 100% paid for? Never get another eye exam again until they're covered? Don't get hernia surgery? Never visit our family doctor? Never buy prescription drugs again until pharmacare comes in, so that we can't be accused of having supported the private drug system?

This is ridiculous.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
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posted 12 January 2006 11:41 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
Does a non-profit clinic = a private clinic?

Does the NDP want to ban non-profit clinics?

Nice to see honest and transparent campaigns.


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 12 January 2006 11:44 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Privateer:
I have a lot of things to say about neo-cons, but this one is not their doing. This has LIBERAL written all over it.

We are threatening at least four Liberal seats in BC. Also, in the bigger picture, it makes no sense for the CPC to do this. Bringing down the NDP doesn't help them, on balance.


We are also threatening 7 Conservative seats in BC, 4 in Saskatchewan, and 1 in Manitoba. Those 12 seats could easily deprive the Con from getting a majority.

And this also is exactly what neo-Cons are always accusing people who defend public health care of doing- using private healthcare themselves.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 January 2006 11:49 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Cons are hypocrites and the Canadian public should know about it before the elections.

They should know about their wolf in sheeps clothings routine before the cons start privatizing our country away to foreign interests.

The sins of lying through ommission are still considered "sins" Stephen Harper. Be honest and be upfront with Canadians.


From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gnote
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posted 12 January 2006 11:49 PM      Profile for Gnote     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Every time any of us goes to see our physician we almost always go to a private clinic.

Many health professionals are private businessmen. Do people really think they work for the government? We have a system of socialized health insurance, not socialized medicine.


From: Saskatoon SK | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 12 January 2006 11:50 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Global TV's national news used this story as their lead item tonight.

It was a total smear job, implying that Layton was on the defensive... next time he's referred to a clinic, he'll be asking a lot more questions, etc, etc.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 12 January 2006 11:51 PM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by JKR:

We are also threatening 7 Conservative seats in BC, 4 in Saskatchewan, and 1 in Manitoba. Those 12 seats could easily deprive the Con from getting a majority.

And this also is exactly what neo-Cons are always accusing people who defend public health care of doing- using private healthcare themselves.


But what about all those seats where a shift of votes from NDP to Liberal will threaten CPC victories.

Saanich
West Van
North Van
Richmond
South Surrey
Van South
Van Quadra

That's at least seven seat in BC where the CPCs want to prop up the NDP soft left vote.

EDIT: The Liberals really don't care if this plays into the hands of right-wing ideologues. Nevertheless, on a practical electoral level, the CPC gains nothing and possibly loses from this.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Privateer ]


From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
rinne
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posted 12 January 2006 11:54 PM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Jack should go on the attack on this one.

Really, I think they have provided him with the perfect opportunity to address the issue of integrity.

I'd like to see him step outside his scripted and rehearsed political performance and tell the country that those who engage in this kind of politics do not deserve their respect or their vote and if Canadians want a government with integrity then they should vote the NDP in.

I want him to remind people he and Olivia have had serious medical conditions and that they trusted the system to take care of them and it did.


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 January 2006 11:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is crazy. If the Liberal "party" and a clan of hyenas were locked in the same room, I think we know which of the two would walk away unscathed. I'm atta here.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
mary123
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posted 12 January 2006 11:55 PM      Profile for mary123     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup this calls for a knockout punch from Layton.

Jack Layton: He's better than those other 2 yahoos.

From: ~~Canada - still God's greatest creation on the face of the earth~~ | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Euhemeros
rabble-rouser
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posted 12 January 2006 11:57 PM      Profile for Euhemeros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think Layton ever suggested that health care is 100% paid for in this country. He has said that he WANTS it to be.

So what are we supposed to do in this imperfect world in the meantime before health care is 100% paid for? Never get another eye exam again until they're covered? Don't get hernia surgery? Never visit our family doctor? Never buy prescription drugs again until pharmacare comes in, so that we can't be accused of having supported the private drug system?

This is ridiculous.


I never said that everything should be covered. The low level of reading comprehension of some on this board is what is ridiculous.

Nevertheless, it was covered until the NDP or BC Liberals delisted it. I can't remember which, but both delisted services during their respective reigns.


From: Surrey | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
beibhnn
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:00 AM      Profile for beibhnn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jack Layton had a hernia operation but has given a proper explanation as to why it was at a private/public facility.

Well, finally a leader we can truss!

*Credit to Gordon Wright of Edmonton Strathcona who used this same joke about Ed Broadbent 20 or more years ago.


From: in exile | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 13 January 2006 12:11 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Global TV's national news used this story as their lead item tonight.

It was a total smear job, implying that Layton was on the defensive... next time he's referred to a clinic, he'll be asking a lot more questions, etc, etc.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


Any comments from CPC or Liberals, or are they just letting Canwest do all the dirty work for them?

If either party takes this to task, then Jack should fight back hard ... if no one in either party takes this to task, then Jack should demand that Canwest explain why they are trying to push a story that not even the Libs and Cons are willing to take up, and then ask them which party contracted them to do their dirty work.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 12:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Euhemeros:
I never said that everything should be covered. The low level of reading comprehension of some on this board is what is ridiculous.

Um, what? What the hell are you insulting me for?

Oh, I see. You thought my post was in response to yours. Actually, it was Sineed I was responding to with the first paragraph of my post, because she said that "The reality is that medical care isn't 100% paid for in this country, and Jack's rhetoric suggests that it is."

Then, the second and third paragraphs of my post were just arguing against the accusation against Jack Layton, not directed at Sineed or you.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
paulhoy
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:15 AM      Profile for paulhoy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The story wasn't mentioned on CTV (@11:00PM) at all.
From: Waterloo, Ontario | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 13 January 2006 12:16 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From the platform:

quote:
It's time to end the Liberals' creeping privatization of health care - including the growing trend of allowing provinces to enter into public/private [P3] health care partnerships - and to make sure people have access to quality public health care when they need it.

In the next Parliament, Jack Layton and the NDP will:

- Stop further privatization and protect public health care from being dismantled and privatized.

- Provide dignity for seniors, by investing in long-term care.

- Reduce health costs to families, by phasing in a national prescription drug program.

- Make affordable, step-by-step moves forward, to steadily improve the quality of public health care over the next four years.

Stopping privatization

Jack Layton and the NDP will fight to stop the further dismantling and privatization of Canada's health system by enacting a Protection of Public Health Care Act.

- Jack Layton and the NDP will not permit the dismantling of Canada's single-payer medicare system. We will oppose the privatization of Canada's health system.

- Public funds to support the public system. In the next Parliament, we will introduce tough new rules in the legislation and agreements that govern federal transfers to provinces for health care. We will make stable, long-term federal transfers for health care contingent on a commitment from provinces and territories that no federal money, directly or indirectly, will be used to subsidize a new, separate, profit-making private insurance system covering medically necessary services.

- Ending cross-subsidization. We will make stable, long-term federal transfers for health care contingent on no federal money being used to cover the salaries or costs of doctors and other medical personnel involved in a new, separate, profit-making private insurance system.

- Accountable and enforced. These tough new rules, along with all provisions of the Canada Health Act, will be monitored and enforced.



From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 12:17 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Looks like this is going to be the co-op housing smear of 2006. Pretty crappy if you ask me. Especially considering that it's not even a private facility in the for-profit sense of the term. Most hospitals are non-profit corporations run by boards and funded by the government, are they not?

This really sucks.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Euhemeros
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:17 AM      Profile for Euhemeros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Um, what? What the hell are you insulting me for?

Oh, I see. You thought my post was in response to yours. Actually, it was Sineed I was responding to with the first paragraph of my post, because she said that "The reality is that medical care isn't 100% paid for in this country, and Jack's rhetoric suggests that it is."


Sorry, then.


From: Surrey | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
lonewolf2
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posted 13 January 2006 12:18 AM      Profile for lonewolf2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is SUCH a NON-ISSUE!

I had the misfortune to have a hernia and have it taken care of by the regular hospital, who treats it like major surgery and keeps you in bed several days until healed. (The cost must have been enormous, but it was OHIP covered).

Two years later, I had to have the surgery redone as it apparently hadn't 'healed', and was referred by my regular doctor to the Shouldice - again, just OHIP card needed.

What makes the Shouldice remarkable is that the surgery is done under local (not the more dangerous general anaesthetic), and they MAKE you get up and walk within hours. Painful as hell, but = Total stay = 1 1/2 days, and it has never had to be redone many years after.

I am certain that the majority of people (unless you are a doctor) referred there think it is a public facility.

It was simply the best medical procedure and completely covered by OHIP.

Perhaps the only issue here is - as someone mentioned - how the hell does another party wonk get access to medical records = a crime.

It just shows how desperate the opposition is to paint "Integrity Jack" with a muddy brush.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 12:19 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Euhemeros:
Sorry, then.

No problem. Sorry for the knee-jerk reaction myself.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 13 January 2006 12:20 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Looks like this is going to be the co-op housing smear of 2006.

Only worse, if it gets much traction. There is A LOT of money being tied up in P3s, for-profits, etc. Money that can buy ads. And connections to dig very private dirt. And very motivated, greedy, shameless people who have a lot riding on our health system being further gutted, NOT rebuilt, as the NDP proposes.

This one really stinks.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 13 January 2006 12:28 AM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no problem with Jack Layton going to a so-called "private" clinic. They exist, they're part of our system, it's reality. It's not on the same order as crossing a picket line.

I have a major problem with partisan hypocritical cheerleaders who excuse what Jack Layton did just because it was Jack Layton who did it.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
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posted 13 January 2006 12:29 AM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This one hits a little too personally, and the issue is a little to vague, which is why I think it might not have many legs. This kind of dirt just pisses off voters rather than making them move their support.
From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 13 January 2006 12:30 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
About concern over the privacy of medical records: Layton is quoted on cbc.ca and ctv.ca saying that the operation was well publicized at the time.
From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
dackle
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3870

posted 13 January 2006 12:33 AM      Profile for dackle        Edit/Delete Post
Jack Layton actually went to a hospital.

In a Canadian city.

A hospital with doctors.

In Canada.

Do you know who else was a doctor?

Norman Bethune.

Does Jack Layton want to bring communist style medicare to Canada?

He's not saying.

We're not making this up!


From: The province no one likes. | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 12:38 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha! The one good thing about those ads is that they're going to be comedic fodder for a good while.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
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posted 13 January 2006 12:41 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This kinda stuff really isn't our (CPC) style. If we want to slag someone we'll issue a press release saying that they support kiddie porn.
From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 12:43 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ha II!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:45 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
This kinda stuff really isn't our (CPC) style. If we want to slag someone we'll issue a press release saying that they support kiddie porn.


Nope, this is a Grit-job - clearly targeted at the Lib/NDP swing vote.

Besides, the NDP has been vocal in our support of Underage Naturalist Art Pamphlets.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
$1000 Wedding
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11486

posted 13 January 2006 12:46 AM      Profile for $1000 Wedding        Edit/Delete Post
This will hurt Layton not because of hypocrisy, but because he wants to end the hypocrisy. Rather, Liberals and Conservative political figures can jump the line to obtain preferential medical care, tactily acknowledging that private medical care operates while refusing to enforce the Health Act and shut it down. Effectively, they are hypocrites, refuse to acknowledge they are hypocrites and allow the hypocrisy to continue by fudging and turning a relatively blind eye. Why? Because they realize that most Canadians and most Canadian doctors support the existence of some level of private medical care in order to offer more choice. They will lose votes if they vow to shut it down or openly advocate private clinics.

Layton has vowed to shut down private medical care yet he has benefitted from a private clinic run in parallel with the pubic system. The middle class won't see past the nuances of this particular clinic and will label him another elitist socialist who'll deny them the choice of private care simply for ideological reasons to please the hardcore left. The optics are the real issue here.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 13 January 2006 12:47 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
Which party has Global been supporting?
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440

posted 13 January 2006 12:47 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
It is a Grit job I suspect, the question is whether it will work. There will be a lot more of this sort of thing until the election.
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
rinne
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:47 AM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks writer. I suppose it makes sense that if he was a public figure at that time it would be known.

Privateer:

"This kind of dirt just pisses off voters rather than making them move their support."

I think so too.


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4717

posted 13 January 2006 12:49 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by a citizen of winnipeg:

"This kind of dirt just pisses off voters rather than making them move their support."

I think so too.


I think that's probably the idea.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 13 January 2006 12:50 AM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I suppose it makes sense that if he was a public figure at that time it would be known.

He was lucky enough to have Mel Lastman visit him there! What a picture: hernia / hospital / Lastman.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: writer ]


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
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posted 13 January 2006 12:57 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The middle class won't see past the nuances of this particular clinic and will label him another elitist socialist who'll deny them the choice of private care simply for ideological reasons to please the hardcore left. The optics are the real issue here.
This is on CBC right now, so it looks like it has some mileage. It was not called a non-profit clinic, but a private clinic. They are not the same thing.

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 13 January 2006 12:58 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the NDP should get into the game and start playing rough like the Liberals and Cons? We've been standing on the sidelines watching the Liberals abd Conservatives slug it out. We've been an afterthought in this election. I think it's about time we joined the fray and started playing hardball too. Maybe then we'd get some real media attention.

And maybe we should be making leaks to the media too?

I wish politics wasn't like this but it's a fact of life.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeywoodFloyd
token right-wing mascot
Babbler # 4226

posted 13 January 2006 01:01 AM      Profile for HeywoodFloyd     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Lord Byron:


Nope, this is a Grit-job - clearly targeted at the Lib/NDP swing vote.


Yep. It just has that feel. Besides, where's the win in the CPC knocking around the NDP. We won't get many swing voters there anyways.


From: Edmonton: This place sucks | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 13 January 2006 01:09 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by dackle:
Jack Layton actually went to a hospital ...

That was the funniest. Made me laff


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
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posted 13 January 2006 01:15 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay...

A very good question was asked near the top of this page:

HOW did Jack's medical history get released like this?

IF the media is going to attack Jack on this, that is the question that REALLY needs to be asked. It goes to the very heart of what the public hates -- distribution of personal information... VERY personal information. If the media has ANY INTEGRITY AT ALL THEY WILL FOLLOW UP AND FIND OUT WHO spread this information.

I agree that this has the mark of the Libs. If any one party *could* find out that kind of information, I would assume Liberals.

I think the Libs are terribly afraid of the NDP. I think the Libs have the most to lose right now and are desperately searching for any way possible to bring down the competition. Just look at the ridiculous situation with the military ad and the Cons! So desperate.

But the damage (how much we don't know) has been done. What are the options here? I see three:

1) Layton goes after it -- demanding to find out WHO released his medical history dating back an astonishing TEN YEARS. That is the part I can't even BELIEVE!! Here we are, discussing whether it was a private clinic or public-private clinic, etc... when someone's medical history has OBVIOUSLY been exposed ILLEGALLY. Which one is the crime in the eyes of the public??? -- really.

2) Layton continues to just deny it and hope that it dies all by itself. In which case, perhaps we should end this discussion and 'help the dying process along'.

3) Layton releases whatever shit he has on the other two party leaders RIGHT NOW. Full-on attack to divert/reflect the mudslinging. (But who knows what, if anything, the NDP has on the other two parties?)

It really disturbs me that his medical procedure was made public. More importantly, it disturbs me that the Cons or Libs are likely responsible for this ancient information being released. How pathetic is that??? This is their best shot at Layton??? A procedure dating back ten years that the media is slanting and not telling the whole truth/facts about? Really shameful on the parties and the media. Canada should be WAY more concerned about stuff like that.

For our part, we can keep on discussing this thing and keep bringing it up, or we can let it die and move onto finding some more crap on the other two parties and discussing THAT INSTEAD. And there MUST be more shit on them out in the Internet world... we're talking Cons and Libs here with ZERO INTEGRITY and closets FULL of crap that has already been uncovered. Our energies would be better served doing that, I'd imagine. Keep the focus on THEM, not the NDP.


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 13 January 2006 01:29 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
I think this is even bigger then this election.
This may also be a part of the battle to open up healthcare to private operators in light of the Supreme Court's recent decision in Quebec. Supposedly Charest has already made a up his mind regarding how Quebec is going to deal with the Supreme Court's decision. He's waiting until the elction is over to make an announcement. Supposedly Charest will come out with something that allows for more private health care. Layton would be one of the primary opponents of this plan. This may be an attempt to limit Layton's ability to oppose private healthcare.

From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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Babbler # 3052

posted 13 January 2006 01:29 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WCT: See writer's post above, and also the reference that Mel Lastman visited Layton at Shouldice for a photo-op. No medical records need to have been leaked.
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
About concern over the privacy of medical records: Layton is quoted on cbc.ca and ctv.ca saying that the operation was well publicized at the time.

From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
West Coast Tiger
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10186

posted 13 January 2006 01:51 AM      Profile for West Coast Tiger     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I missed that one, Albireo. Thanks for clearing it up. Must have been my erratic scrolling. That changes things a bit. We've got to try and let this blow over... I can't see any other way now unless we can divert the negative publicity for the NDP to one of the other parties. That sucks.

edited for spelling. doh!

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: West Coast Tiger ]


From: I never was and never will be a Conservative | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albireo
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posted 13 January 2006 02:02 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, as somebody mentioned above, it wasn't mentioned at all on CTV National news. Nor does the hourly CBC Radio news. But then, they hardly mentioned anything else about the NDP, either. It's almost a concern that it is being ignored as much as it is; if the NDP were at (say) 25% and climbing, you can be damned sure that this story would get huge amounts of play. As it is, it reflects the general marginalization of the NDP by the media.
From: --> . <-- | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sean in Ottawa
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posted 13 January 2006 02:04 AM      Profile for Sean in Ottawa     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with those who say that Layton should ask if this is all they got. Fact is this is the existing system and he used it -- I am sure I have gone to a private clinic before. When I am sick as long as they take my card -- I go there. That is pretty normal. At the time Layton was a councillor not one who would be expected to be up on every angle of the health care debate.
He never spoke about healthcare that I know of before then either.
It would be a problem if he had used a private clinic AFTER he said that he did ot support them. It might even have been a problem if he did this after becoming a federal leader.
But to expect that he ought to have done the research on the place he was referred to when he was in municipal politics based on a future federal leadership role makes little sense.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Privateer
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3446

posted 13 January 2006 02:09 AM      Profile for Privateer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:
Yep. It just has that feel. Besides, where's the win in the CPC knocking around the NDP. We won't get many swing voters there anyways.

Notice how a chorus of Liberal Trolls appear at the beginning of this thread.


From: Haligonia | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 13 January 2006 02:26 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
I wonder who started stirring this up? It must be the Liberals, as they have the most to gain from anything that seems to discredit Layton. They are pretty desperate, as well.

You don't expect a party at 16-18% in the polls to be a target like this, so I guess it's nice that somebody cares enough about the lil' old NDP.


Of course it was the desperate LPC. This nonsense has their tactical approach to politics written all over it.


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kanada Dry
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posted 13 January 2006 02:33 AM      Profile for Kanada Dry     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeywoodFloyd:

Yep. It just has that feel. Besides, where's the win in the CPC knocking around the NDP. We won't get many swing voters there anyways.


It is also a very poor method to employ if your goal was to split the vote.

The Conservatives will be presenting their platform tomorrow and this story will disappear off the radar screen with very little damage, if any, done.


From: British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 13 January 2006 02:36 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
This is on CBC right now, so it looks like it has some mileage. It was not called a non-profit clinic, but a private clinic. They are not the same thing.

What a surprise - this LPC attack on Layton being carried by the CBC. If the CPC get elected I hope they, together with the NDP, completely close down the News section of the CBC.


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
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posted 13 January 2006 02:37 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Of course it was the desperate LPC. This nonsense has their tactical approach to politics written all over it.

Yeah I'm definitely smelling Liberal sleaze in this so-called "scandal".


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 13 January 2006 02:46 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is totally a non-issue.

I heard Jack comment on it earlier today - he said he went to see his doctor and was referred to Shouldice by his doctor, and he used his OHIP card to pay for it.

We probably all use private clinics for our blood tests, x-rays, etc., whenever our respective doctors refer us for tests.


Case closed.


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440

posted 13 January 2006 02:47 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
Surprise, surprise, something smells bad and was put out there by the Liberals.
From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 13 January 2006 02:48 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The real issue here is how far our health care system has been privatized under the LPC.
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
up
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posted 13 January 2006 03:11 AM      Profile for up     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You guys have no principles at all.

this is against the NDP platform. The NDP platform calls for no public money going to private medical facilities.

this is exactly what Layton did. He went to a P3.

Layton can now never make a speech on no private health care, on no public money for private health care. This is EXACTLY what Klein wants to do, and what we shout him down for. Now Layton cant make a speech about NDP health care policy without losing credibility on the nightly news and the next day dailies. He cant say private health care is not necessary, when it was necessary for him. Now the NDP has a leader that cant talk about its strongest issue without being shouted down and embarrassed and you guys this is no big deal?

It is hypocritical. And we should care. If the NDP loses its credibility on health care what do we have left? It will totally game over, and not just for this election.

I think either Layton or the NDP health care policy has to go, one or the other.
If Layton cant talk about health care hes a liability and has to go. If we lose health care the NDP has nothing left.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: up ]

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: up ]


From: other | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440

posted 13 January 2006 03:21 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The real issue here is how far our health care system has been privatized under the LPC.
You would think that is pretty obvious LCG. Sad Martin dismantled the work his father helped achieve.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Cartman ]


From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
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posted 13 January 2006 03:27 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While no fan of Harper, I have observed that Martin is just as right wing if not more right wing than Harper. At least Harper has good
Canadian values and unlike Martin doesn't try to avoid paying his Canadian income taxes, and Harper abides by Canadian labour and environmental laws.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: leftcoastguy ]


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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Babbler # 6477

posted 13 January 2006 03:39 AM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftcoastguy:
While no fan of Harper, I have observed that Martin is just as right wing if not more right wing than Harper. At least Harper has good
Canadian values and unlike Martin doesn't try to avoid paying his Canadian income taxes, and Harper abides by Canadian labour and environmental laws.
This is sarcasm I assume, since the scumbag despises Canada and Canadian values and will sell us out to the Americans the first chance he gets.

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440

posted 13 January 2006 03:44 AM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This is sarcasm I assume, since the scumbag despises Canada and Canadian values and will sell us out to the Americans the first chance he gets.
Agreed, but can you identify one specific way Martin will protect your rights more than Harper? You really think Martin gives a damn?

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11260

posted 13 January 2006 07:10 AM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think Jack should go on the attack on this one.

Agreed. Look what the Republican smear machine did to John Kerry.

From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 07:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Albireo:
Actually, as somebody mentioned above, it wasn't mentioned at all on CTV National news. Nor does the hourly CBC Radio news.

It was this morning!


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doug
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 44

posted 13 January 2006 07:23 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by up:
You guys have no principles at all.

this is against the NDP platform. The NDP platform calls for no public money going to private medical facilities.

this is exactly what Layton did. He went to a P3.


Not really - what he went to was an odd hangover from the time before medicare.

http://www.shouldice.com

It probably should be in the public sector, but for whatever reason the Ontario government never bothered buying it - my guess is probably because it's non-profit, doesn't charge extra fees, just does hernia operations and does them very well. This is a world of difference from the private operations in Quebec and Alberta which are run for profit, do sometimes charge extra fees over what medicare covers and are aggressively looking to expand into other profitable procedures and locations.


From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 07:23 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by up:
You guys have no principles at all.

Write something like that again and you'll be banned.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 January 2006 07:27 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW, I didn't notice how long this was getting. I've reopened this thread so we can continue the discussion there.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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