babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » election 2006   » Roots of the Liberal meltdown

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Roots of the Liberal meltdown
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 12 January 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You know, I really never expected this, at least not to this extent. But we talked about it back when Martin was taking over--he brought this on himself.

The clearest, most public indication was when Martin, after winning the leadership, then proceeded to sideline and/or screw over the other contenders, especially Sheila Copps. But that was a symptom of the broader situation. Basically, when Martin decided that the way to make his faction win was to purge all other factions from the party, he cut out an awful lot of the party's electioneering expertise, left a lot of people with that expertise on the outside pissing in, shrank the Liberal tent considerably by cutting out basically the whole "red Liberal" wing, ensured that any he missed that stuck because they were careerists would be disloyal and potential leakers, and made the organization dysfunctional by creating a keep-your-head-down, yes-man atmosphere.
That's why we never seem to see the tough campaigning Liberals of yesteryear. All the tough, sleazy with knowhow campaigners got purged; many are feeding the media nasty stuff about the Martin Liberals.

Thoughts?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11076

posted 12 January 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The roots of this meltdown are specific to the very public civil war between the Martin camp and the Chretien Loyalists. Pepper in a wholesale desire for change on the part of the electorate and a reasonably gaffe free campaign from the Conservatives and you get the bums thrown out after twelve years.

There are Chretien supporters who are actively working against their own party because they would rather see the party go down in flames than see Chretien's "good" name besmirtched any further...

That's my take...


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 12 January 2006 04:53 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The meltdown started the day Martin acknowledged Adscam. Chretien had dealt with it by ignoring it, which worked like a charm, same as HRDC. Martin, displaying the political instincts of a toadstool, chose to crisscross the country frantically beating his chest shrieking "mea culpa" for about six weeks and it's all been downhill since then.
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 12 January 2006 04:57 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
1) Gomery report in November - it was fun seeing people's reaction. In the spring during the public hearings that were prime time TV favourites in Quebec, I was still living in Toronto. I was told I don't know how many times by condescending Ontarians from right AND left (including many NDPers and many NDPers here on Babble) to run along and stop bothering people with the non-issue of corruption. Now the NDP can't go one day without denouncing Liberal corruption. So factor 1 is that the rest of the country has woken up to what Quebecers have been yammering about for years. You have caught up with us and now understand what we were trying to tell you for so long about Liberals but you condescendingly refused to hear

2) the beer and popcorn comment by a top Liberal campaign strategist. That was just another indication of the attitude of a party that has been privileged and powerful for too long. The content of the remark is irrelevant. It grabbed people's attention

3) the last minute spending promises left and right just before the elections were called showed Martin had lost his proverbial fiscal discipline which is what his entire reputation is based on

4) major campaign gaffes (leaks, contradictions between the Liberal Red Book platform and Martin's public speeches for example his desire to amend the Charter which appears nowhere in the program) and the fact Harper did not self-destruct. I was disappointed by Harper - I was expecting some major gaffes and we'd all have great fun at Tory foolishness but he has run what we in French call "une campagne sans faute" (almost without fault). He is not exactly Mr. Teflon but the scaremongering by desperate Liberals is failing, the dirt from Liberals simply no longer sticks to the Tories. They are rightwing and often reactionary but we are not "scared" any longer into submission to the Martin diktat. The head of Quebec's largest union - FTQ - said it best when he explained he loses no sleep over the prospects of a Harper government. Life goes on, the sun still rises, and as Layton says, volcanoes will not wipe out all life from the planet if we disobey the desprate pleadings from Martin and refuse to vote in another tired, arrogant and corrupt Liberal government.

5) the Liberals have no agenda, hidden or otherwise. No vision, they make it up as they go along (the attack ads, the notwithstanding clause fiasco that has been ridiculed by most reputable constitutional experts who actually take part in reallife constitutional consultations and that is not even in the official platform). Commentators are talking about the Liberals as of a party flailing around. The public is coming to a awareness that the Liberals haven't a clue, that they are in a panic

6) my father, lifelong Liberal has neverbeen a party member but he knows many people active in Liberal circles. As someone pointed out, and as my father has commented to me, he also knows many Liberals who have been bullied, brutalized, excluded by the Martin gang, and they are sitting on the sidelines enjoying the spectacle of their internal enemy self-destruct.

7) add to this all the investigations. The best line of the debate this week according to me may have been Harper's : after listing Gomery, income trusts, Option Canada, he asked "how many criminal invesitgations are there Mr Martin against the Liberal Party of Canada?" or something to that effect. To many allegations of wrongdoing against too many Liberals.

Martin: dead man walking.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 12 January 2006 05:03 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal


That's hilarious!

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 12 January 2006 05:04 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree that it was the Martin coup against Chretien that caused the downfall of the Liberals ... Ad Scam, in the hands of the CPC would be meaningless whining, but Ad Scam in the hands of ex-Liberals, now that causes real damage.

Personally my disgust with the Liberals started when the Martinites began their coup and allowed the exposure of the dirty underhanded tricks they used to accomplish their task ... but instead of ending up feeling sorry for those unfairly dethroned Liberals, these ex-Liberals acted in such a way as to show themselves to be even more vile and vindictive than the Martin group ... no redeeming values among the whole lot of them (Martin makes me sick, but people like Kinsella, and Copps, both of whom I once had respect for, really disgust me.)

I guess the fact that they were always this way and using their vile skills against an enemy even worst (hard to imagine, but true) than themselves made them a little easier to take, but once they made the fatal mistake of getting rid of a leader that was capable of keeping the dirty laundry mostly out of public view, their battle was lost.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 12 January 2006 05:33 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal: it is called commuting.
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
ClaudeB
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11387

posted 12 January 2006 06:59 PM      Profile for ClaudeB     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It seems to me, all those "Blackberry leaks" we heard about in the last couple of weeks, the platform leak and the awful "army attack ad" is most likely linked to some kind of inflitration of the Martin war room by disgruntled Chrétienites working against their team.

There is also the Option Canada thing. Normand Lester (who was the Ottawa-based investigative reporter for Radio-Canada in the nineties) got the cheques and other financial documents in December, after receiving a call, knowing full well how Lester would play these revelations. I wouldn't be very surprised to hear that Lester's source is somewhat linked to Chrétien.


From: Québec | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11076

posted 12 January 2006 07:30 PM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I had this emailed to me - quite funny:

quote:
For Immediate Release

TORONTO - (CP): Paul Martin upped the rhetoric today, promising to implement a national ban on lightsabers. This follows recent policy announcements by the Liberals to ban (already banned) handguns, as well as to ban weapons in space.

"This is another example of the fundamental differences between myself and Stephen Harper." said the Prime Minister in front of a mostly partisan crowd in Toronto Centre. "It is the role of the Prime Minister of this country to ban lightsabers."

Martin left abruptly when asked if this ban would require the use of the notwithstanding clause over fears it would infringe on the religious rights of Jedi.



From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cartman
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7440

posted 12 January 2006 07:36 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The meltdown started the day Martin acknowledged Adscam. Chretien had dealt with it by ignoring it, which worked like a charm, same as HRDC. Martin, displaying the political instincts of a toadstool, chose to crisscross the country frantically beating his chest shrieking "mea culpa" for about six weeks and it's all been downhill since then.
Exactly. His very first major decision showed how stupid he is. I thought he had enough talent working on his behalf to do better than he has though.

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
BCastro
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11420

posted 12 January 2006 07:45 PM      Profile for BCastro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Errrr . . . .

And . . .

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: BCastro ]

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: BCastro ]


From: Halifax | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 12 January 2006 07:49 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also believe that a major gaffe by Martin was accusing Harper of not having Canadian values and yet Martin took his ships offshore to avoild Canadian taxes , etc. I think if one scratched the surface a bit about Martin's behaviour here, it troubles a lot of Canadians.

Martin was a mistake from the beginning and the LPC will probably compound it be replacing him with another right winger like McKenna, etc.

Currently being crushed in the polls looks good on those LYING LPC BASTARDS!!!

Will Martin even win his own seat?

I certainly hope not.


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Stephen Gordon
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4600

posted 12 January 2006 08:15 PM      Profile for Stephen Gordon        Edit/Delete Post
I think it's more fundamental: Paul Martin spent decades trying to get into the Prime Mininster's chair, but once he got there, he couldn't for the life of him come up with anything to do but react to events and launch a round of policy reviews. It was like a dog finally catching a car: he hadn't a clue what to do next.
From: . | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 12 January 2006 08:15 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
So you're looking forward to a Conservative government and a powerless NDP?
From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
eau
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10058

posted 12 January 2006 08:25 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
Lets hope that Harper has more imagination than Bush on environmental issues.

I was curious if anyone from Alberta has an opinion about how all the growth in Alberta has impacted the environment.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 12 January 2006 08:34 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by RealityBites:
So you're looking forward to a Conservative government and a powerless NDP?

Que sera, sera.

Definitely am looking forward to getting rid of the useless and lying Martin Liberals who have been jerking all Canadians around ever since Martin staged his coup against Chretien. !!!


From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reality. Bites.
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6718

posted 12 January 2006 08:36 PM      Profile for Reality. Bites.        Edit/Delete Post
Well like I've said to others, when the Conservatives start hurting people, I hope you're at the top of the list. Not your family, or others you care about.

Just you - and anyone else callous enough about others to want a Conservative government. Others don't deserve what they're going to do to this country. People like you do.


From: Gone for good | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
island empire
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8064

posted 12 January 2006 08:39 PM      Profile for island empire     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
is it just me, or does sheila copps look an awful lot like bc ndp leader carole james?
From: montréal, canada | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 12 January 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The LPC appears to be in freefall and if LPC supporters want to stop a CPC majority they should vote NDP.
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11256

posted 12 January 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by eaucanada:
Lets hope that Harper has more imagination than Bush on environmental issues.

Not a chance. The Alberta oil industry is largely supporting the Conservatives. Sure, they made token contributions to the Liberals in the past but that is not where their hearts are.

Ripping up Kyoto is the price of admission.

I've never given the Liberals a free ride on their poor handling of Kyoto either, but at least a commitment meant they'd try to do something to move forward.

Harper won't even try.


From: Vancouver Kingway - Democracy In Peril | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Berlynn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2630

posted 12 January 2006 09:47 PM      Profile for Berlynn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by leftcoastguy:
if LPC supporters want to stop a CPC majority they should vote NDP.

This is what Jack and all the NDP candidates should be saying more loudly than ever right about now.

It's been the mantra here in SK from the get-go.


From: Regina | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4717

posted 12 January 2006 10:02 PM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Y'know - it's not even a Chretien/Martin feud - it was the Trudeau/Turner feud before that - this is a schism that has wracked the LPC since at least 1968.
From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 12 January 2006 10:30 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
The whole election turned around when the RCMP began their investigation concerning the trust fund leak. Coupled with Gomery, it made the Liberals out as criminals and rightfully decimated the Liberals. What's amazing is not that the Liberals are going down but that they are still in the game. Something like RCMP criminal investigations should completely kill a political parties chances during an election. The Liberals should be facing an election like the Tories had in 1993 and the BC NDP had in 2001. If a Conservative or NDP government had ongoing criminal investigations going on during an election, they would be totally wiped out. Somehow Martin and the Liberals have used smoke and mirrors to stay in the game.

Considering how the Liberals are hindered by criminal investigations and the Conservatives are hindered by having a radical neo-Con as leader, the real question should be - why hasn't NDP support skyrocketed? I think the NDP's fatal flaw was not going after Harper and Conservatives. Instead of the NDP being the heir apparent government the NDP let that fall to the neo-Cons.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Northern54
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5325

posted 12 January 2006 11:00 PM      Profile for Northern54     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think that making the Conservatives the "ultimate" villains would have helped the NDP benefit the most from the drop in Liberal fortunes. What we are experiencing here in the Western Arctic is that other things being equal, the anti-Liberal vote is coming our way because we are viewed as being the best chance of defeating the Liberal incumbent. This is what usually happens when governing parties lose elections. The party perceived as having the best chance of defeating the government gets the "change" vote unless there is a compelling reason otherwise in any given riding. There is the "odd" situation when the "third" party sneaks up through the middle to the winner's circle. I thought there was a possibility of this happening in this election, not because of what the NDP could have done but rather what I thought the leader of the Conservatives might do (say something very much against the values of Canadians) or to have a series of similar statements by Conservative candidates.

One thing that would have helped is if we had more "star" candidates running. I sometimes wish that more able to attract such candidates but there is no personal gain to be gotten from winning an NDP nomination federally. I know that it is costing our local candidate far more to run than what he can possibly expect to gain in any material sense.

I am interested in seeing whether Schreyer is able to win his rural Manitoba riding. Can anyone list other candidates with this "star" quality running in the present election for the NDP?

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: Garth Brasseur ]


From: Yellowknife | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 12 January 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

[quote]The meltdown started the day Martin acknowledged Adscam. Chretien had dealt with it by ignoring it, which worked like a charm, same as HRDC. Martin, displaying the political instincts of a toadstool, chose to crisscross the country frantically beating his chest shrieking "mea culpa" for about six weeks and it's all been downhill since then.

Originally posted by Cartman:
Exactly. His very first major decision showed how stupid he is. I thought he had enough talent working on his behalf to do better than he has though.
[/QUOTE]

That was a collossal blunder, to be sure, and if this were greek tragedy, that would be the character's fatal flaw (hubris, as always).

But the real cause of this disaster was when the (hijacked) Liberal party allowed paul Martin to attain the leadership untested by a real leadership campaign.

These flaws were always in Martin, and if the party had palyed by their rules, they'd have become apparrant in a leadership race, and the party could have chosen someone savvier.

Someone who could A, make a decision, and B, spot a bad decision coming.

[ 12 January 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
JKR
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7904

posted 12 January 2006 11:36 PM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
Chretien couldn't have just ignored it. The RCMP weren't just going to go away. I don't think anyone could have saved the Liberals from going down. Criminal investigations linked to your party are fatal. Paul Martin's good reputation probably saved the Liberals from getting just a couple dozen seats in the 2004 election.

In my lifetime I cannot remember a more damaging scandal to hit a political party in Canada. Once we are talking about the RCMP and criminal charges linked directly to your party - it should be game over.

Look at what Glen Clark's experience with the RCMP did to the BC NDP.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7851

posted 13 January 2006 09:29 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The factions in the Liberal party have been like factions in any party. Keeping them together is what's important, and at least through SSM, Martin did that. Now that old consensus might crack up, leading to a permanently marginalized Left. While under Martin, things were heading that way, but there were enough important bones there for the Left WITHIN power (SSM, weapons in space, Kyoto). Not so with the new parliament. We'll see a retreat on all three issues, with a WEAKENING, rather than a strengthening of Canada's economic fundamentals (larger deficits under Tories to be sure).
From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 13 January 2006 09:37 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I also think that Martin is a compulsive liar and hasn't got an honest bone in his body. Many, many Canadians have picked up on that and no matter how progressive someone is, if they are dishonest, and constantly lying to you, who needs that person is what a whole lot of Canadians have decided.
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 January 2006 09:48 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ceti:

Now that old consensus might crack up, leading to a permanently marginalized Left.



The. Liberals. Are. Not. "Left".

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 13 January 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No f****** kidding!!!
From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Geneva
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3808

posted 13 January 2006 09:53 AM      Profile for Geneva     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Gordon:
I think it's more fundamental: Paul Martin spent decades trying to get into the Prime Mininster's chair, but once he got there, he couldn't for the life of him come up with anything to do but react to events and launch a round of policy reviews. It was like a dog finally catching a car: he hadn't a clue what to do next.

in short, the John Turner syndrome ....

s1m0n, above:
Paul Martin DID once go through a full-blown Liberal leadership campaign, being edged out by Chretien in June 1990; he would have crushed any opponent in 2002

I am living outside the country, so one question to the people above who say Martin should have gone on "ignoring"" Adscam...
could he have? or was it too flamingly obvious by then?


.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Geneva ]


From: um, well | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
stupendousgirlie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11076

posted 13 January 2006 09:55 AM      Profile for stupendousgirlie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Liberals are left when it sounds cool to sound left, they are right when it is cool to be right, in truth they are a party about nothing that never takes a stand on anything because when they do take a stand, they either change their position or dillute their stand on an issue so that it is firmly in the middle and in a "safe" place politically.

If that sounds like bafflegab, then you are starting to understand the Liberal party of Canada.


From: Wondering how the left can ever form a national government | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
ceti
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7851

posted 13 January 2006 10:02 AM      Profile for ceti     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not saying the Liberals are Left. What I am saying is that the Left voices will be increasingly marginalized inside and outside of parliament. We will have less levers in parliament to pull except in the opposition benches where they won't be taken seriously. Plus, the Conservatives will make it so that the Left gets squeezed out except when it serves their purposes as in maligning their predecessors. They are not playing by the regular rules of the game, but will take a leaf out of the Republicans play book and kill the Left as a viable governing force for good.

This is why I can't believe some people are talking about gutting the CBC which is one of the few places left where the Left can at least be heard (if only in documentaries and such).


From: various musings before the revolution | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
leftcoastguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5232

posted 13 January 2006 10:04 AM      Profile for leftcoastguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The entire Liberal CBC News section needs to be closed down.

quote:
"But a lot of people are appalled at the Liberals over the scandals," said Bill Good of CKNW Radio, host of the province's top-rated talk show.

Or, in the words of Shirley Woo, a Vancouver voter whose member of Parliament is a senior Liberal Cabinet minister, "Enough is enough is enough."

The Liberal Party is identified with bureaucracy.

The Liberals, in power since 1993, are an urban party that backs gun control. The government of then-Prime Minister Jean Chretien brought in national gun registration in the late 1990s. Registering guns was supposed to cost less than $50 million. The program's cost has exceeded $2 billion. It employs 1,700 people and has diverted hundreds of Mounties from other duties.

"It was mismanaged," Bill Cunningham, a high-profile Liberal Cabinet aide and candidate, conceded at a raucous debate this week.

In 1995, after Quebec voters almost approved an independence referendum, Chretien launched what became known as the "Sponsorship Program."

The Canadian government was going to spend up to $100 million to enhance its image in the French-speaking province by lending its name to all manner of cultural and sporting events.

Instead, millions of dollars disappeared into the pockets of Liberal-connected ad agencies.

Chretien was eventually forced to retire. His successor, Prime Minister Paul Martin, was left to clean up the mess. A public inquiry exposed middlemen and backstage fixers populating a party in power for most of the past 75 years.

It has been, for Canadians, like Watergate -- or the Jack Abramoff scandal, only with more dire consequences.

The scandal, and its sleazy cast, boosted the cause it was designed to stop -- Quebec separatism. The Bloc Quebecois, a pro-sovereignty party, is expected to sweep more than 50 of the province's 75 seats in the 308-member House of Commons.



From: leftcoast | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 13 January 2006 10:54 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I also think that Martin is a compulsive liar and hasn't got an honest bone in his body. Many, many Canadians have picked up on that and no matter how progressive someone is, if they are dishonest, and constantly lying to you, who needs that person is what a whole lot of Canadians have decided.

Paul Wells in this week's Maclean's writes about how little Martin is believed by Canadians. And how little Martin seems to realize his promises are seen as lies by a growing number of people, and most dangerously by the press people who have to cover him and who are writing more and more openly about the gaping contradictions. And Wells writes that Martin seems to actually believe his own stuff, which may be the sign of a form of a deeper psychological problem. I mean, I can understand (as mostCanadians seems to believe) that politicians lie most or all of the time, but I don't think that most politicians actually believe their own lies. What Wells seems to be getting at is that Martin may sincerely believe what he is saying, which he contradicts 6 hours later, and the contradicts again the next day, AND he believes he is telling he truth each time. I am not a psychiatrist, but this raises some serious mental health questions. Lie to me, you're just a run-of-the-mill politician in an election but to believe your own lies: now I'm worried


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2938

posted 13 January 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A divided party in power for over 12 years, rife with scandal, and with a leader with a reputation for "dithering," is a recipe for defeat. And that recipe can overcome what is a relatively strong economy. The only question was whether enough people would swallow Harper and the Cons. Had the opponent been the old progressive conservatives, the results would have been like 1984.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 13 January 2006 11:14 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am not a psychiatrist, but this raises some serious mental health questions.

I wish that people would stop doing this.

It is so viciously disrespectful of people with real illness. Illness is not a metaphor. Please try to control your rhetoric according to at least minimal standards of human decency.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2116

posted 13 January 2006 11:17 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
one question to the people above who say Martin should have gone on "ignoring"" Adscam...
could he have? or was it too flamingly obvious by then?

It was flamingly obvious when the auditor general first blew the whistle on this a year earlier. Chretien shrugged, and "I don't know"-ed a few times and it went away, just like HRDC did. In fact, Chretien managed to make the opposition parties look shrill and hysterical on both of those issues by being calm and dismissive of the whole affair - the "I'm not going to dignify that with a response" approach. Martin managed to make himself and his entire party look shrill, corrupt, disorganised, dishonest and incompetent in one five minute press conference, and he's never recovered.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 13 January 2006 11:17 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
It raises questions of his relationship to reality.

By the way, please drop the constant chiding with the holier-than-thou crap.

quote:
Illness is not a metaphor. Please try to control your rhetoric according to at least minimal standards of human decency.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 13 January 2006 11:24 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:

It raises questions of his relationship to reality.


Who was it said this?

quote:
And please, do not demonize your opponents. Harper is Satan, Harper eats dead babies for breakfast. Martin is Herman Goering. Duceppe is Mussolini. That's what Marin does. People are sick to death of that kind of desperate horrid schoolyard bully politics.


Oh yeah. It was you. Over here.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 13 January 2006 11:28 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
The differene Heph is I'm just a private citizen with no party membership at all in any party trying to make sense of all the spin and manipulation by well-funded party machines. I don't run national ad campaigns.

And yes, the fact Martin lies, is caught lying, is asked by reporters to account for this, and continues to deny he ever contradicted himself or said the exact opposite 6 or 12 hours before or the day before, raises legitimate questions about Martin's relationship to the truth and reality. Maybe it is nothing psychological, maybe it's just a serious character flaw for Martin, but isn't character a component of a person's deep psychological and mental structure? So, as a non-expert, my terminology is faulty? Big deal, I think most people here (those who are not ill-willed) understand perfectly my drift about a individual caught lying repeatedly by reporters, confronted by it and who continues to lie about the fact he lied (or fudged the truth). Lying about lying - there must be something psychological about that. It does reveal something about a personality structure

Sorry I can't help you Heph. You'll have to read Wells and draw your own conclusions. It's just my opinion. Come up with a different opinion if you want to, that's democracy.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
elixir
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3434

posted 13 January 2006 11:32 AM      Profile for elixir     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry to sound "conspiratorial" about our wonderful democratic system, but it seems to me that at some point some pretty important players in business and media must have decided that Martin (who, we should recall, was their darling as Finance minister up until a little while after his leadership win) had to go.

I think the federal-Liberal collapse in Quebec was a big factor, but I'm not sure how the mechanics of elite decision-making exactly work.

Of course, it's not a finished process, and this election is unlikely to settle the volatility of the post-Chrétien years.

Reading people like Ibbitson, it's clear the more "enlightened" business-media crowd is looking for some kind of major reshuffling of the deck in the mainstream parties, all the better to return to a more stable, "business as usual" arrangement within a few years from now.

Thoughts?


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Screaming Lord Byron
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4717

posted 13 January 2006 11:35 AM      Profile for Screaming Lord Byron     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
It raises questions of his relationship to reality.

By the way, please drop the constant chiding with the holier-than-thou crap.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


Oh, I don't know - maybe she's concerned about people on the internet who know not what they speak of attributing disorders to politicians purely because they do not agree with or believe that person. That a) makes us all look bad, and b) contributes to a culture that already deeply misunderstands mental illness.


From: Calgary | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10908

posted 13 January 2006 11:38 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Good point Lord Byron. I was editing while you wrote you post so I'll add it here.

quote:
Maybe it is nothing psychological, maybe it's just a serious character flaw for Martin, but isn't character a component of a person's deep psychological and mental structure? So, as a non-expert, my terminology is faulty? Big deal, I think most people here (those who are not ill-willed) understand perfectly my drift about a individual caught lying repeatedly by reporters, confronted by it and who continues to lie about the fact he lied (or fudged the truth). Lying about lying - there must be something psychological about that. It does reveal something about a personality structure

And a few people among my relatives have had mental health problems in the past. I am more sympathetic than you think.

skdadl just enjoys playing at language police. Which is fine. Nothing disallows that. Her point has been noted.

[ 13 January 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca