babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » election 2006   » I just found out why I'm so comfortable with Duceppe's Bloc...

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: I just found out why I'm so comfortable with Duceppe's Bloc...
NDP Newbie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5089

posted 16 June 2004 03:05 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
:-) Guess which party his father was a founding member of.
From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 16 June 2004 05:11 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a better question why are so many alleged federalists (Coyote and a few others I'm not calling anyone out just pointing it out) so comfortable with the Bloc? It's not a red-neck westernism to quesiton this. Sure they're progressive but they want to break up the country so I really don't understand what the point is in supporting them. Shouldn't more work be going into building up NDP support in Quebec?

[Edited by Michelle to replace Coyote's real name (which he used to use on babble) with his alias.]

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 16 June 2004 05:18 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Davidbcalec:
I have a better question why are so many alleged federalists (Coyote and a few others I'm not calling anyone out just pointing it out) so comfortable with the Bloc? It's not a red-neck westernism to quesiton this. Sure they're progressive but they want to break up the country so I really don't understand what the point is in supporting them. Shouldn't more work be going into building up NDP support in Quebec?

I don't think Duceppe is your father's soverignist. He's pragmatic, and advocates a EU style relationship between Canada and an independant Quebec. I like his fire, and his stated commitment that Bloc should act as an opposition party that speaks out on behalf of Canadians regardless of where they live.

[Edited by Michelle to replace Coyote's real name (which he used to use on babble) with his alias.]

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 16 June 2004 05:34 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't want to guess, NDP Newbie - Out with it!!
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 16 June 2004 06:15 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Davidbcalec:
I have a better question why are so many alleged federalists (Coyote and a few others I'm not calling anyone out just pointing it out) so comfortable with the Bloc? It's not a red-neck westernism to quesiton this. Sure they're progressive but they want to break up the country so I really don't understand what the point is in supporting them. Shouldn't more work be going into building up NDP support in Quebec?

I'm not so sure the Bloc is even that progressive, but that's an excellent question.

[Edited by Michelle to replace Coyote's real name (which he used to use on babble) with his alias.]

[ 16 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
captain_easychord
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1296

posted 16 June 2004 06:49 PM      Profile for captain_easychord     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A willingness to break the country apart shouldn't be seen as an automatic negative; rather, evaluate it fairly, and keep nationalism at a rational level. If a group of citizens in a given state have a genuine desire to secede, isn't it rather besides the point how others in that state feel about the situation?

Remember, Canada didn't start out as anything more than an economic construct, and all efforts since to build a nation to fit the state have been, quite simply, after the fact.


From: The West Beyond the West | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5052

posted 16 June 2004 07:12 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by captain_easychord:
A willingness to break the country apart shouldn't be seen as an automatic negative; rather, evaluate it fairly, and keep nationalism at a rational level. If a group of citizens in a given state have a genuine desire to secede, isn't it rather besides the point how others in that state feel about the situation?

Remember, Canada didn't start out as anything more than an economic construct, and all efforts since to build a nation to fit the state have been, quite simply, after the fact.


Ok, but the state of Canada has become something more than a logging and fur-trading colony in the last 250 years and the nation state, despite all it's flaws, is still the only political body which we have any democratic control over. Canada, for all it's flaws, has been one of the best. We're one of the very few nations on earth that would allow a province to secede without a real fight.

If the Quebecois are bound and determined to secede from the union then there's little we can (or should) do about it, I agree, but I don't think we can blithely ignore how negatively it will affect the rest of us or how most Anglo Canadians quite rightly have a certain interest, affection and investment in Canada. We may survive separation as an independent nation but then again we might not.

I'm not even sure that Quebeckers and the French language will be in a better position outside of Canada, Acadians and Franco-Canadians of Ontario and Manitoba will very likely be in worse. That has to be seriously considered, as well as the potentially negative political impact on the NDP getting too close to the BLOc.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
beverly
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5064

posted 16 June 2004 07:19 PM      Profile for beverly     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's not a red-neck westernism to quesiton this. Sure they're progressive but they want to break up the country so I really don't understand what the point is in supporting them. Shouldn't more work be going into building up NDP support in Quebec?

I was very impressed with Duceppe. And

1. While I hope the NDP will make gains in Que. the reality is that likely the Bloc will make gains (anything to oust Martin, I say) and,
2. I don't see a Layton-Duceppe coalition as unworkable.

If there is going to be a Con minority gov't I hope that both Duceppe and Layton in a position to shake hands and make sure nothing wacko happens to this country and if Harper steps outta line bring 'em down. As for Martin, I'm still hoping Paul does a Kim Campbell, and doesn't even win his own seat. As much as I fear a Conservative led country, I want the Liberals to pay, and pay dearly for their mismangement and use of my tax dollars in the manner they have done.

How many homeless shelters could have been funded with that sponsorship money, not to mention education and healthcare. Oh, now I'm going to get all riled up again like some bible-thumpin' travellin' preacher!


From: In my Apartment!!!! | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5089

posted 16 June 2004 07:32 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I find it odd that working with a nationalist party here is such a poison pill.

For every Vlaams Blok (Belgium) or ETA (Spain), there are countless parties like Spirit (a left-liberal Flemish nationalist party known for its opposition to software patents) or the Bloc Québécois (a predominantly social democratic coalition composed of both nationalists and separatists (all separatists are nationalits, but not all nationalists are separatists)).

There are also a number of peaceful nationalist governments in Spain that get involved in coalitions and the like.

Why is the Bloc Québécois treated by many as though it were a far-right or pro-terrorist nationalist movement?


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
asterix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2419

posted 16 June 2004 07:36 PM      Profile for asterix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My own feelings about sovereignty and the Bloc are kind of mixed, to be honest. While I would like Quebec to stay in Canada, and I'd be personally heartbroken by a victorious referendum, Quebec unquestionably has the right to separate if they decide to do so.

I also happen to think that it's much more un-Canadian to say that separation should be prevented at any cost than it is to say that the Bloc should and does have every right to participate in the national political discussion.

I dunno, though, maybe that's just me.


From: deep inside the caverns of my mind | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 16 June 2004 08:04 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why is the Bloc Québécois treated by many as though it were a far-right or pro-terrorist nationalist movement?

Because their reason for existence as a party doesn't include most Canadians. While I'm sure that were the bloc to form the government (obviously hypothetically) I don't believe they would necessarily discrimite against the rest of Canada that is not Quebec, they also don't have a possibility of including them.

They are there for their own political interests, not for the interests of Canada.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lastnightsdream
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5285

posted 16 June 2004 08:07 PM      Profile for lastnightsdream     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I lived in Quebec, I'd probably vote for him..
From: Alberta | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5141

posted 16 June 2004 08:35 PM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
They are there for their own political interests, not for the interests of Canada.

You are half-correct. They're not there to defend the interests of Canada (like some others I might say *cough*harper*cough*martin*cough*), but for the interests of Québec.


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 16 June 2004 08:47 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A very large percentage of people here, perhaps a majority, see Quebec as their nation, not Canada. This includes a lot of folks for whom independence is a secondary question or don't think it is worth the bother or the possible negative economic consequences. Thus soar's point is moot, or simply yet another expression of national oppression - telling us what to feel, what to be. (Québécois have often done the same with Aboriginal peoples - I'm not claiming we have any higher moral ground).

(Personally, I don't identify with any country on earth, but with the struggle for socialism...).

That aside, socialists in the RoC will simply have to learn to work with progressive folks in Québec as we are and not try to - as, was it Bertolt Brecht who quipped - elect another people. There are many countries, including Belgium and the Spanish State, where workers' and progressive movements of the different nationalities have organised different parties, on the basis of the history of each. Often these parties succeed in working together, as coalitions.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5089

posted 16 June 2004 08:54 PM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sometimes Quebec laws are odd:

A videogame or DVD movie available to Quebec only in English must either have predominantly French packaging or no packaging at all.

BUT YET.

There is no law requiring companies that release French video games or DVD movies in other parts of the world to make these products compatible with hardware sold in Quebec. (i.e. regional encoding considerations)

Odd, eh?


From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 16 June 2004 08:57 PM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't question Quebec's right to secede if a fair and clear question is posed to the people of Quebec. It simply wouldn't make sense to try to force them to stay. Canada is a fairly democratic country and as such the people of this country should be allowed to decide their future.

That being said I would rather they do stay then leave. As such I would be leery of supporting a party that advocates Quebec's withdrawal from confederation. I have not compared them to terrorist organizations like ETA what I have said is the obvious -- they advocate withdrawing Quebec from Canada. As a Federalist I'm opposed to working with the Bloc in a way that would further Quebec's being withdrawn from the country -- as the situation is now (meaning Quebec is in Canada and I think we should work to keep it that way).

The fact that Quebec Nationalists support the Bloc was mentioned. Well I have to ask wouldn't those in the NDP be better off trying to get these people, if they are progressive, to support the NDP instead of simply voting Bloc because it would get rid of Martin? Yes it would be difficult; the NDP is basically a fringe party in Quebec. But it would avoid the fact that progressives would be closely associated with people who want to withdraw Quebec from confederation, it would give the NDP an actual shot at winning government and it would prevent alienation of progressive federalists. Even though this is not an election issue this year, in the ‘ROC’ it just might be soon and what's the point in needlessly shooting ones self in the foot?

(on edit and some minor stuff) I should say not a major election issue this campaign.

[ 16 June 2004: Message edited by: Davidbcalec ]


From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
simonvallee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5141

posted 16 June 2004 09:05 PM      Profile for simonvallee   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A very large percentage of people here, perhaps a majority, see Quebec as their nation, not Canada.

Actually, according to a poll, 68% of Quebecois agreed to the affirmation that "Québec is a nation that should pursue its self-affirmation", and the percentage was even higher for younger people (75%, out of memory). So there is a vast majority of Quebecois who are nationalists.


From: Boucherville, Québec | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 16 June 2004 09:13 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The big question is whether the national question is presently a "vital" or "central" one, and whether the growth of the Bloc vote is based on pique over the sponsorship scandal, etc.

I think that it is unfortunate that it seems to be so difficult sometimes to include Québec in the Canadian polity without also decentralizing it to the extent that it would be unrecognizable. Most rest-of-Canadians view Montreal as "their city" as much as Toronto or Vancouver, which I think sums up some of the resistance to viewing Québec as a nation, or even a nation-in-a-nation.

There really is no Canada without Québec but there can be a Québec without Canada. This asymmetry is unfortunate.

[ 16 June 2004: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 16 June 2004 09:36 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, that is true Mandos, and there is no easy solution. I don' think most Québécois see the national question as the crux of the current election. By the way, david, I am working for an NDP candidate, but one who is often seen as "sovereignist" - André Frappier, a trade unionist and an old friend of mine. But honestly, it will be difficult for the NDP to make much headway now - le Bloc a le vent dans les voiles and a lot of Bloc voters see it as a left vote.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 16 June 2004 09:49 PM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But the question is, can a francophone Québecer come to view Toronto as his/her city the way a rest-of-Canadian sees Montréal? Or is it that the domination of English in the world is so complete that an anglophone can see any place as home and domestic but a francophone cannot?

Or to bring it down to a lesser degree, can a Québecer, even a nationalist, view the link between Canada and Québec as being more than merely economic and governmental? Or is the rest of Canada as culturally foreign as America or Britain?

[ 16 June 2004: Message edited by: Mandos ]


From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Vansterdam Kid
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5474

posted 17 June 2004 01:16 AM      Profile for Vansterdam Kid   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Lagatta this is good news good luck and good campaign. We need people to work to elect people commited to Canada but more importantly the Canadian people.
From: bleh.... | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
radiorahim
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2777

posted 17 June 2004 02:19 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We're one of the very few nations on earth that would allow a province to secede without a real fight.

Czechoslovakia split into separate Czech and Slovak Republics 10 years ago and it was a relatively peaceful divorce as these things go.

They both still play hockey and make good beer

Czechoslovakia was basically a creation of the 1919 Treaty of Versailles which ended World War I.


From: a Micro$oft-free computer | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Mandos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 888

posted 17 June 2004 03:04 AM      Profile for Mandos   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's why it's "very few." Our neighbours to the South, for instance, resolved a UDI with a horrendously bloody war, even if the good guys won, I suppose. They would also have a bloody war if that were tried again. Unfortunately this is true for almost every country on Earth, except for a few in which things have given them fleeting opportunities. Czechoslovakia was one of them. Canada is rare in that this window has been open for decades.
From: There, there. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sir George Williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6119

posted 17 June 2004 03:10 AM      Profile for Sir George Williams        Edit/Delete Post
and one of my Check buddies insits that the Slovaks got a really good deal, economically.
I really don't know, But I do know that people of good will can work out anything

Sorry about my lousy spelling and typing.

[ 17 June 2004: Message edited by: Sir George Williams ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raos
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5702

posted 17 June 2004 03:56 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
But the question is, can a francophone Québecer come to view Toronto as his/her city the way a rest-of-Canadian sees Montréal? Or is it that the domination of English in the world is so complete that an anglophone can see any place as home and domestic but a francophone cannot?

Or to bring it down to a lesser degree, can a Québecer, even a nationalist, view the link between Canada and Québec as being more than merely economic and governmental? Or is the rest of Canada as culturally foreign as America or Britain?


Dumb as this is going to sound, why can't something 'foreign' also be domestic? Why does something being 'foreign' mean it can't share a country? Personally, living on a farm would be quite foreign.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 17 June 2004 08:44 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do want to point out - again - that there are peoples within Canada for whom WE, whether in Québec or anywhere else, are infinitely more "foreign" than francophones and anglophones are to each other - the many Aboriginal peoples who have been doing much in recent years to affirm their nationhood.

Mandos is raising very interesting questions about identity. I'd say most Québécois see the "Roc" (I know, I don't like that expression either , but "English Canada" which is usually said here is even less accurate as Hinterland quite correctly pointed out) - in any case, see the RoC as something quite foreign, but less so than either the US or Britain.

Actually, a lot of folks in the Czech republic and Slovakia had sober second-thoughts about their breakup - but now that they will both be in the EU, the negative effects are cushioned somewhat. This is a very interesting thing to look into - many minority nationalities are less afraid of independence when it is in the context of the greater European community - this certainly seems the case in Scotland and among the non-Castillian peoples of Spain.

As for André, he is waging a good campaign but he can't really win. But I don't believe he is standing to defend Canada, Québec or any other country but to defend the working class - and in particular the UI fund, against incumbent Pierre Pettigrew and the Liberal looting of same for general revenues.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rev. Phoenix
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5140

posted 17 June 2004 12:15 PM      Profile for Rev. Phoenix     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm a federalist and over all a centralist and I make no apologies for that. I don't like the Clarity act because it insults the intelligence of Quebecers and I'm all for working with the Bloc on social issues and budget matters, but when it comes to seperatism I 100% no deal. Some people here might not care about their country, but I do, I'm a Canadian Priot, I'm a positive Canadian nationalist, which automatically makes me opposed to Quebec nationalism. I'm willing to give on the distrint society question, hell Canadian culture is made up of dozens or more distinct cultures and subcultures.
From: Bradford | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 17 June 2004 02:24 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mandos:
But the question is, can a francophone Québecer come to view Toronto as his/her city the way a rest-of-Canadian sees Montréal?

Toronto's different. Actually, alienation from Toronto is something francophone Québecers *share* with the rest of Canada!
But I bet a francophone Québecer could come to dig Vancouver. Montréal has better night life, we have better food (don't get me wrong, I understand Montréal has good food. But Vancouver has better food than, like, anywhere). I'm sure any reasonable francophone can appreciate a dazzling array of places for great palate-pleasing. And there's a certain similarity of attitude, I think, between the laid back life-enjoying West Coast and the civilized appreciation for the finer things Québecers, and perhaps Montréalais in particular, are known for which neither of us share so much with the Alberta driving hypercapitalists or the hustle-hustle wanna-be-New-York Torontonians. I know when I saw that weird show where the fascist Albertan kid switched places with the longhair leftie Montrealler kid I found the Albertans much more alien.
This is all stereotyping of course--but then, all notions that one culture is alien to another are essentially based on stereotyping.

Edited to say:
Slightly more seriously, the Toronto thing is a piece of something that's wonky in the whole Quebec/Canada thing. Quebecers look at Ontario and are alienated from Ontario and Ottawa and they think that's being alienated from Canada because they lump us all together. It seems like they don't *see* much of Canada; to them it's Ontario and maybe Alberta because Alberta's always bitching. But the thing is, Saskatchewan and BC and Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick and probably Manitoba are *also* alienated from Ontario and Ottawa. And to some extent from Alberta. And for reasons similar to Quebec's, although not identical. And our politicians exploit it by fed-bashing to distract from their own failings just like in Quebec--they just don't typically take it quite as far. We're in a boat that's more the same than Quebecers usually realize.

[ 17 June 2004: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca