babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » in cahoots   » Stanford - Throwing money at the problem

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Stanford - Throwing money at the problem
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 November 2005 07:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Everyone knows you can't solve a problem by throwing money at it. That defensive, neoconservative theme song has been playing loudly and continuously ever since the exposé of polluted water and shocking living conditions at Kashechewan in northern Ontario. Look at the hard numbers, however, and it's not at all apparent that communities like Kashechewan are suffering from having too much money thrown at them.

Canadian Auto Workers


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
myata
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9408

posted 29 November 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for myata        Edit/Delete Post
Just a few more numbers to complement those in the column (data from the City of Ottawa web site and Google):
City of Ottawa population (2004): over 800,000
City of Ottawa budget (2004): $ 1.8 billion
Native population of Canada: 1,200,000
From this, per capita spending for native people is at least twice that of Ottawa residents.
And of course, "regular" residents do pay taxes from which all these money come.

From: Ottawa | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 29 November 2005 01:53 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So myata, why is Kashechewan a third world shithole in Canada's own backyard ?. Are you saying they need more federal forms to fill out in triplicate in order to spend any of the money that might be "available" to them?. More liquor and beer stores ?. More $70 dollar a carton cigarettes or milk at several times what you pay for it in Ottawa, perhaps ?.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 29 November 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by myata:
City of Ottawa population (2004): over 800,000
City of Ottawa budget (2004): $ 1.8 billion
Native population of Canada: 1,200,000
From this, per capita spending for native people is at least twice that of Ottawa residents.
And of course, "regular" residents do pay taxes from which all these money come.

Um, the 'spending' also includes basic income payments to non working residents who are probably about 50% of the population or more. I don't think the income of Ottawa residents are included in government expenditures. And municipal costs do not cover the infrastructure of provincial and federal costs as are incorporated into a res budget. So stop trying to scam everyone. Try living on a res for a while and see how well off you feel. Personally, I would love to go back home, but I would be taking a home away from someone who needs it more.

[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Makwa ]


From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
myata
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9408

posted 29 November 2005 10:43 PM      Profile for myata        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
So myata, why is Kashechewan a third world shithole in Canada's own backyard ?. ...

Good question. I've a small house of my own and it's not a shithole although it takes a bit of time and some work to keep it that way.

From: Ottawa | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 29 November 2005 11:20 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So tell me, with all that free tuition why is it that something like 1% of the total aboriginal/native/eskimo/inuit population in Canada even goes to university in the first fucking place?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 29 November 2005 11:27 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
So tell me, with all that free tuition why is it that something like 1% of the total aboriginal/native/eskimo/inuit population in Canada even goes to university in the first fucking place?
"All that free tuition" is a bit of a myth, I'm afraid. Bands have a cap on how much they can spend on tuition. My information is only anecdotal, but I have never heard of a band that didn't have people on waiting lists for tuition funding. I've never received any.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3336

posted 29 November 2005 11:33 PM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally
posted by DrConway:
. . . 1% of the total aboriginal/native/eskimo/inuit population in
Canada even goes to university . . .

Fortunately, that percentage is rising.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 29 November 2005 11:38 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
So tell me, with all that free tuition why is it that something like 1% of the total aboriginal/native/eskimo/inuit population in Canada even goes to university in the first fucking place?

Let's see, um, they might still have an aversion to school given the experience of the four or five generations before them. I hope that this generation and the next can overcome the legacy of the residential schools the most evil "well intentioned" program ever devised.

And that is before getting into the discrimination that many aboriginal students have faced in regular schools. A Metis friend of mine told me about her teachers who tried to discourage her from academics because she wasn't smart enough. She was doing well in law school when she told me about her education experience.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8346

posted 30 November 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...Christ on a crutch...

Sounds like Malcolm X's grade school teacher, the one who really liked Malcolm, telling him he shouldn't try to be a lawyer when he grew up, but should be a carpenter instead, because "you're a smart boy, but you're a n---er".

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 30 November 2005 01:21 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Canadian's are beginning to understand the problems faced by our First Nations people. Canada is world renowned for its abuse of native Canadians.

For those of us who have visited Canada's remote Northern regions, we know all too well that there are more Kaschewan's all across Canada. Over 300 miles of river ecosystem were poisoned with mercury by Abitibi P&P over 30 years ago that affected White Dog and Grassy Narrows and is expected to remain contaminated for another 100 years.

And for that poster who might attack me for describing these Canadians as "our native peoples", it comes from an old ethnic colloquialism referring to anyone in the immediate family as "our so and so." i.e. Our John or "our Elaine" There are some here who will know exactly what I mean and that it's used in an affectionate manner and is never confused with anything remotely related to colonialism or dominant culture mentality so typical of the conservative right in this frozen Puerto Rico.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
rinne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9117

posted 30 November 2005 02:48 AM      Profile for rinne     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Frozen Puerto Rico, I like it, it sounds cool and hot all at once, what's in it?

Good article from CAW, thanks for posting it.

At university I learned that within traditional Cheyenne life there was a circle that decided for the tribe and within that circle each aspect of the tribe was represented, so someone spoke for the children and someone for peace and someone for war and I don't remember them all but I remember being very impressed at how much more sophisticated it was than our way of doing things. Our way, a tradition of the greediest and the most willing to kill making the decisions for all of us.

Me, I'm hoping that Aboriginal people will wake up from this nightmare that we laid on them and help us to wake up to the kind of society that does listen to and consider deeply each member of that society.

Edited to add that that hope comes from respect and not expectation.

As to those who persist with bigotry, what can I say? You may think we are in the same game but we are playing with different decks.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: a citizen of winnipeg ]


From: prairies | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 30 November 2005 11:41 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
"All that free tuition" is a bit of a myth, I'm afraid. Bands have a cap on how much they can spend on tuition. My information is only anecdotal, but I have never heard of a band that didn't have people on waiting lists for tuition funding. I've never received any.

The whole point is that myata seems to think that money justs pours into the reserves without limit and every aboriginal lives like a king. My response is the simple stark fact that if they do, I ain't seeing it.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cougyr
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3336

posted 30 November 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for Cougyr     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally
posted by DrConway:
The whole point is that myata seems to think that money justs pours
into the reserves without limit and every aboriginal lives like a king.
My response is the simple stark fact that if they do, I ain't seeing
it.

Actually, all that money doesn't get where we citizens think it goes. The Canadian government bureaucracy sucks up most of it. Twenty years ago, it took 90% of the cash to administrate the remaining 10%. That has improved, but the percentage is still intollerable.


From: over the mountain | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
myata
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9408

posted 30 November 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for myata        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

The whole point is that myata seems to think that money justs pours into the reserves without limit and every aboriginal lives like a king....


I'm not aware of anyone in this country being endowed with the right to live like a king...

More to the point, I don't think that automatically blaming someone else for the problems is going to get us far - and if that's the only lesson we're learning from the incident, I tend to agree with some native peoples's comments I heard on the radio that nothing's going to change once the money run out.
What's needed instead is an honest and serious discussion of sustainable development in the native communities - and the less stereotypes, blame passing and finger pointing is there, the more productive it'll be.


From: Ottawa | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
BleedingHeart
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3292

posted 30 November 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for BleedingHeart   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we have to accept that most of northern Canada is at best marginal land that can support a subsistence hunter-gatherer population if we accept that the population will be kept stable by high infant mortality and a short life expectancy but can in no way support a first world lifestyle.
From: Kickin' and a gougin' in the mud and the blood and the beer | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 30 November 2005 01:53 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As spake by myata:
I'm not aware of anyone in this country being endowed with the right to live like a king...

More to the point, I don't think that automatically blaming someone else for the problems is going to get us far - and if that's the only lesson we're learning from the incident, I tend to agree with some native peoples's comments I heard on the radio that nothing's going to change once the money run out.
What's needed instead is an honest and serious discussion of sustainable development in the native communities - and the less stereotypes, blame passing and finger pointing is there, the more productive it'll be.


Please. Spare me. Everybody who wants to gripe about how uppity the aboriginals are getting these days always hauls out the free tuition thing like it's some kind of bigass trump card.

Big deal, in my book. The fact that you could probably count on one hand how many aboriginals are in any one post-secondary institution suggests that the free tuition thing isn't as big a bugaboo as you make it out to be.

There was some other dumbass who actually wrote auntie.com whining about how each Inuit allegedly gets $80k a year from the government, or some equally lamebrain garbage.

As Cougyr points out the Dept of Indian Affairs has silted up to the point where just moving the money takes a buttload of government employees that don't really want to see themselvs unemployed.

Given that on other threads I've pointed out that the right-wing assault on the very notion of the government as guardian of the powerless, has led to the notion in society in general that working for the government is for second-raters and nobodies, and welcome to the self-fulfilling prophecy. Second-raters and nobodies now silt up the government's civil service and give us crap service, and our answer? Make the problem bigger in the guise of making the government more "efficient" instead of solving it.

How this bears on Dept of Indian Affairs? If ever there was a common cause for right-wing smaller-government folks and left-wing quit-treating-the-aboriginals-like-dirt folks, this is it. Kill dead the DIA, and quit this damn divide-and-conquer bullshit full of urban legends that make us ordinary majority folks resentful of aboriginals and vice versa while the fat cats at the top laugh their asses off at how easy it is to make off with the wealth we all should rightfully enjoy.

[ 30 November 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10724

posted 30 November 2005 01:58 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
Maybe we have to accept that most of northern Canada is at best marginal land that can support a subsistence hunter-gatherer population if we accept that the population will be kept stable by high infant mortality and a short life expectancy but can in no way support a first world lifestyle.
Don't know where you get this 'narsty brutsh and short' stuff, but BC (before colonialization) FN people generally had long lives and low infant mortality. No environmental toxins, low stress and a lot of art, music and ceremony. The loss of the lands and wildlife and addition of new toxins, addictive substances and diseases is what led to the present state. So about those treaties and reparations ...

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
mersh
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10238

posted 30 November 2005 02:18 PM      Profile for mersh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Holy a-historical analysis, Batman, Malthus lives.

quote:
Originally posted by BleedingHeart:
Maybe we have to accept that most of northern Canada is at best marginal land that can support a subsistence hunter-gatherer population if we accept that the population will be kept stable by high infant mortality and a short life expectancy but can in no way support a first world lifestyle.

From: toronto | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2732

posted 30 November 2005 07:36 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Makwa:
Don't know where you get this 'narsty brutsh and short' stuff, but BC (before colonialization) FN people generally had long lives and low infant mortality. No environmental toxins, low stress and a lot of art, music and ceremony. The loss of the lands and wildlife and addition of new toxins, addictive substances and diseases is what led to the present state. So about those treaties and reparations ...

That will be a quote from McEachern in his infamous Delgamuukw decision that was overturned by the higher courts. It always seemed to me that if one had a choice between living in a long house on the BC coast in the 1600's and 1700's hundreds or the East End of London as a labourer who in their right mind would want to to be a Londoner.

Come to think of it the only place that appeals to me more would be living in Acadia in the 1600's and 1700's. At least until 1755 that is.


From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca