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Author Topic: Leaked documents show Alberta's plan to dismantle medicare
Michelle
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posted 14 November 2005 03:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The Health Sciences Association of Alberta (HSAA/NUPGE) says documents leaked in Alberta prove the Klein government is further shifting health care to a two-tiered system and confirms they intend to dismantle medicare. "For years, Premier Ralph Klein has accused us of fear mongering about the future of medicare," says HSAA president Elisabeth Ballermann. "Now these documents prove we were right."

National Union of Public and General Employees


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cogito ergo sum
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posted 14 November 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for cogito ergo sum     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why am I (sadly) NOT surprised?


From: not behind you, honest! | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Raos
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posted 14 November 2005 06:00 PM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The only thing I'm surprised about is that it's taken this long for concrete proof of Klein's intentions to be made public.
From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 14 November 2005 08:24 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What's the buzz on the ground in Alberta about this?
From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Roonbear
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posted 15 November 2005 11:56 AM      Profile for Roonbear        Edit/Delete Post
Alberta is just following the lead and precedents set by Quebec, Ontario, and B.C.
From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 15 November 2005 12:13 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
....and those precedents would be?
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Roonbear
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posted 15 November 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Roonbear        Edit/Delete Post
Private diagnostic and surgery clinics had been cropping up in Ontario, B.C., and Quebec long before they had in Alberta. Also, the supreme court has shot down the Quebec law banning private health insurance. From the BCMA web-site there were 49 private surgical facilities in B.C. by the year 2000. Ontario has been the first province to offer a clinic which will provide cancer drugs to those who can pay. The examples are numerous.
If you would like more: In Calgary we have one private orthopaedic surgery clinic which bills the province for the services it provides. By contrast, the Duval Orthopaedic Clinic in Quebec offers the same services for a direct charge to patients of up to $12,000. Yes, Alberta's agenda is clear.

From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 15 November 2005 02:51 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
That *hardly* makes it acceptable...
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Roonbear
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posted 15 November 2005 03:13 PM      Profile for Roonbear        Edit/Delete Post
I completely agree. The point is that the problem is more wide-spread and bigger than what Ralph is considering. The Health Sciences Assoc. of Alberta has not stumbled upon something in Alberta that has not been going on in this country from coast to coast for years. They should be congratulated for thier in-depth detective work.
From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 15 November 2005 03:50 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By contrast, the Duval Orthopaedic Clinic in Quebec offers the same services for a direct charge to patients of up to $12,000.

This has never been an issue. Conflict arises only when said clinic also bills the public system - as the one described by you does in Alberta, or indeed, as Paul Martin's doctor has been noted to do in Montreal. But as an example, most cosmetic surgery is done at private facilities, outside of the public system.

To the best of my knowledge, practising purely private medicine has never been illegal in Canada. Billing patients covered by Canadian Medicare and directly billing as well is strictly prohibited though, making private services generally an unprofitable endeavor here.


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Roonbear
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posted 15 November 2005 04:42 PM      Profile for Roonbear        Edit/Delete Post
Orthopaedic services are covered in all provinces under provincial health plans. Knee and hip replacements are not cosmetic surgery. The issue is should people be able to access these services quicker if they have the ability to pay? Diagnostic services are billed directly to provincial governments from private facilities. Those who wish to pay can move to the front of the line. In fact the Cambie Surgery Center in Vancouver is a stand alone private, for profit hospital with more operating rooms than UBC hospital and it performs everything from gynecological to general surgery. Thier surgeons bill the gov't for some services. Canadians need to stop feigning shock over Alberta's health plans and take a look around.

[ 15 November 2005: Message edited by: Roonbear ]

[ 15 November 2005: Message edited by: Roonbear ]


From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
waffler
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posted 16 November 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for waffler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Roonbear you are correct privatisation of Health Care is happening across Canada but Alberta is contemplating a direct challenge to the Canada Health Act. Alberta has long been in the vanguard of private health care and here in Calgary the Health Region has privatised more things than elswhere in the province. Klein is about to open the door to American HMO'S into the province. It really is a sad state of affairs.
From: Calgary | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Morpheseus
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posted 16 November 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for Morpheseus        Edit/Delete Post
Great! Lets get on with it. I was shocked to learn that Canada is one of only three countries left in the world that prevent an individual from spending his/her own money on health care. The other two are Cuba and North Korea.

What I spend my money on, in terms of health care, is no one's business but mine. All the rest of your should care for one thing: Can you get quality access to health care when you need it? Right now the answer is no.

The mentality of some of you amazes me. It is like taking your horse and buggy onto the freeway and insisting on driving in the fast lane! You want to ensure the lowest common denominator.

I have news for you. The battle has already been won. Private health care is here. Get used to it.


From: Vancouver, BC | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 16 November 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Troll! We've got a troll here!
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
kablewy
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posted 16 November 2005 04:39 PM      Profile for kablewy        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Morpheseus:
I was shocked to learn that Canada is one of only three countries left in the world that prevent an individual from spending his/her own money on health care.

I'd be shocked too (if it were true, that is). What law prevents me from slipping down to Seattle for an MRI?


From: Beautiful BC | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 16 November 2005 06:48 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Morpheseus:
All the rest of your should care for one thing: Can you get quality access to health care when you need it? Right now the answer is no.

Manitoba has its own challenges it's facing right now, but if you need a certain procedure done to save your life, odds are you will receive it in a timely manner.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 19 November 2005 07:44 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hypocrites like Morpheseus would never spend a nickel on private health care when the public system is available - which, of course, is why no private system exists. Not because (as this neo-con cretin claims) it is 'illegal', but because it is unprofitable; and it is unprofitable because the likes of Morpheseus never put their money where their mouth is.
From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
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posted 19 November 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Hypocrites like Morpheseus would never spend a nickel on private health care when the public system is available - which, of course, is why no private system exists. Not because (as this neo-con cretin claims) it is 'illegal', but because it is unprofitable; and it is unprofitable because the likes of Morpheseus never put their money where their mouth is.

Niiiice. Now, take your head and remove it from the rings around Uranus. Come back to Earth and pick up a newspaper. There are private clinics in Canada and they aren't going anywhere.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
tallyho
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posted 19 November 2005 10:40 PM      Profile for tallyho        Edit/Delete Post
About a month ago I had a toothache. I called up my dentist and she saw me that morning. It cost me $167. Out of my pocket. My pain was taken care of and I could go back to leading a normal life. no need to wait 4 months to see a specialist who does fillings.

That's private health care.

I also wear glasses I paid for. I went into the optomitrists... he saw me right away and I got a prescription and had a a pair of glasses in 2 days.

That's private health care.

We already have private health care in many areas and it works fine for me. I like the option.


From: The NDP sells out Alberta workers | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 20 November 2005 12:14 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tallyho:
We already have private health care in many areas and it works fine for me. I like the option.

Why not extend public health care to include dental and optometry? What about people who don't have the resources to get dental and optometry on their own?


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
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posted 20 November 2005 12:24 AM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
Why not extend public health care to include dental and optometry? What about people who don't have the resources to get dental and optometry on their own?

I wish that was possible. I couldn't imagine the burden that taxpayers would have to assume if they did it though.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 November 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tallyho:
We already have private health care in many areas and it works fine for me. I like the option.

The option works for you because you have the money to pay for it. Broke citizens don't have that option.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 20 November 2005 01:18 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The best solution imo is to ban private clinics/hospitals *completely* and put more accountablity into the public medicare system, and, where necessary, more finances. Put those billion-dollar federal surpluses into better medical infrastructure - especially outside of the main population centres. For example, the hospitals in Sept-Iles (Quebec) and St. Anthony (Newfoundland) are aging and are starting to need extensive rebuilding or replacement, and I'm sure there are many other examples across the country. Put some of the billion-dollar surpluses towards better healthcare salaries to encourage medical staff to remain in Canada. (there's also a lot of other uses for billion dollar surpluses, such as transportation infrastructure, environmental cleanups, and alternative energy research, and eliminating homelessness and poverty - don't tell me the feds have so much money they don't know how to spend it! ).
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Raos
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posted 20 November 2005 01:19 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why not extend public health care to include dental and optometry? What about people who don't have the resources to get dental and optometry on their own?

I agree. I would love to see more services that for many people (or most, really, for dentistry) are really necessary services. A rich person has no more right to adequate vision than a poor person.


From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 20 November 2005 10:02 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I would love to see more services that for many people (or most, really, for dentistry) are really necessary services. A rich person has no more right to adequate vision than a poor person.
Now there's an election issue that could win some votes....

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 20 November 2005 10:32 AM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The best solution imo is to ban private clinics/hospitals *completely*

Does that apply to your GP?


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 20 November 2005 11:30 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by abnormal:
Does that apply to your GP?

I'm not sure what your point is, because the GP that serves the Lower North Shore, where I live, is totally inside the public medicare system, so far as I know. I'm in my eleventh year on the Quebec coast, I have seen this GP many times, and have never been billed directly. In fact, I've never paid directly for _any_ medical procedure, and I'm 56 years old. (I lived in Ontario for two/thirds of my life and never paid for any medical procedure there, either).

I'd love to see drug prescriptions, vision and dental all part of medicare, but to do that, I'm guessing our taxes likely would go up significantly. Does anyone have a study on this they could point us to?

Our Internet service was down - just came on twenty minutes ago. That's why I haven't posted in a while.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
moderatsaklart
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posted 20 November 2005 12:57 PM      Profile for moderatsaklart        Edit/Delete Post
"The best solution imo is to ban private clinics/hospitals *completely*"

And:
- Make all doctors and nurses government employees (mandatory, no practice allowed outside the public system)
- Make traveling abroad for medical services (any medical services, incl cosmetic ones) strictly illegal for all Canadians and PR holders


From: gaia | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 20 November 2005 05:57 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the GP that serves the Lower North Shore, where I live, is totally inside the public medicare system, so far as I know. I'm in my eleventh year on the Quebec coast, I have seen this GP many times, and have never been billed directly. In fact, I've never paid directly for _any_ medical procedure, and I'm 56 years old.

I'd be very surprised if your GP is a government employee. If he/she is in private practice they are generally a private business that bills the health system directly. The fact that you never see a bill simply means that he/she bills QHIP, not you.

By the way, that's not restricted to doctors that work in their own offices. When I've had occassion to visit Canadian hospitals I've usually ended up writing two checks, one to the hospital to cover their fees and one to cover the doctor's fees. That second check is payable directly to the doctor, not to the provincial health plan and not to the hospital.

I've also had dealings with a doctor whose offices are in a very large Ontario hospital. I wrote a check directly to him. Hospital charges got paid through the business office.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 20 November 2005 06:06 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
- Make all doctors and nurses government employees (mandatory, no practice allowed outside the public system)
- Make traveling abroad for medical services (any medical services, incl cosmetic ones) strictly illegal for all Canadians and PR holders

Why would anyone want to be a government employee? I see stampedes for the border.

There's another short term implications to that first statement. A significant amount of a doctor's retirement funds consist of the sweat equity built up in their practice. When it's time to retire they simply sell the practice to a new doctor. Take that away and you take away a lot of what they've worked to build over the years.

Interesting one - how do you police people travelling abroad for medical treatment, or simply electing to have medical treatments performed when they are abroad for other reasons?

And how do you address emergency treatment, or treatment that simply isn't offered in Canada? People do elect to have treatment elsewhere for a variety of reasons. Waiting times and/or availability of treatment is one. The expertise of a particular surgeon is another....


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
tallyho
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posted 20 November 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for tallyho        Edit/Delete Post
Many GPs in Canada work under a corporation of doctors or have incorporated themselves. They are completely private.

As for Moseraskart's:

"- Make traveling abroad for medical services (any medical services, incl cosmetic ones) strictly illegal for all Canadians and PR holders"

Wow. Now there is a paractical option. We would have had to sneak across the Maine border to have my mother see a specialist in a timely fashion.
'Psst' phone the RCMP, there's a 83-year-old fellow in sector 4 trying to break into the USA for cataract ssurgery. Arrest that man!


From: The NDP sells out Alberta workers | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 20 November 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by tallyho:
As for Moseraskart's:

"- Make traveling abroad for medical services (any medical services, incl cosmetic ones) strictly illegal for all Canadians and PR holders"


You take moderatsaklart seriously? I don't, and I'm sure others here don't as well.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 20 November 2005 11:06 PM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
Why would anyone want to be a government employee? I see stampedes for the border.
Oh for gosh sake. This stereotypical put down of civil servents is tiresome and regressive.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 21 November 2005 02:58 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by moderatsaklart:
"The best solution imo is to ban private clinics/hospitals *completely*"

And:
- Make all doctors and nurses government employees (mandatory, no practice allowed outside the public system)
- Make traveling abroad for medical services (any medical services, incl cosmetic ones) strictly illegal for all Canadians and PR holders


I don't really support private health care, but what would you do if there is a LONG waiting list? Too fucking bad for you? If the queue is too long or there is some kind of lockout/strike, then you get to struggle with whatever health problem you have until it is convienient for the publically employed practitioner to see you?

I beleive the system needs checks and balances against both private interests AND the public power structure. Allowing either too much power results in either bad healthcare just for the poor or equally bad healthcare for everyone. I find neither of those options to be acceptable.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Raos
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posted 21 November 2005 03:23 AM      Profile for Raos     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the system needs to be properly funded so that it can deal with the demand. If the market can bear the same procedures which cost more out of pocket, than clearly the market can afford collectively paying for more efficient procedures through taxes.
From: Sweet home Alaberta | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 21 November 2005 03:54 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Raos:
I think the system needs to be properly funded so that it can deal with the demand.

I agree, however just throwing more money in is not a solution. There must be strings attatched to prevent the money from being wasted. Using large sums of public money to give into demands of some union so that they stop creating havoc by working to rule is NOT a way to improve service levels.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
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posted 21 November 2005 06:42 AM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This stereotypical put down of civil servents is tiresome and regressive.

How is this a putdown of civil servants? I just can't see anyone wanting to be one - that's not a comment on their skills and/or abilities.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 21 November 2005 11:17 AM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Gir Draxon:
I agree, however just throwing more money in is not a solution. There must be strings attatched to prevent the money from being wasted. Using large sums of public money to give into demands of some union so that they stop creating havoc by working to rule is NOT a way to improve service levels.

You really don't know what you're talking about on this one. Unions don't do "work to rule" campaigns or other such actions because they feel like it. They do that because they see no other option to reach a fair settlement. Job action has to be approved by the workers on the ground, and the workers have the most to lose in the event of a strike or lockout. And why shouldn't the workers be paid well and treated fairly? Would you advocate paying them all minimum wage and working them 60 hours a week with no overtime? That's a great way to attract and retain the necessary staff.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 21 November 2005 11:28 AM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by abnormal:
-snip-
By the way, that's not restricted to doctors that work in their own offices. When I've had occassion to visit Canadian hospitals I've usually ended up writing two checks, one to the hospital to cover their fees and one to cover the doctor's fees. That second check is payable directly to the doctor, not to the provincial health plan and not to the hospital.

I've also had dealings with a doctor whose offices are in a very large Ontario hospital. I wrote a check directly to him. Hospital charges got paid through the business office.
-
Well, that's outrageous. I've been a patient in Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland hospitals, and I've never once paid a cent, and I'm 56 years old.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
HACK (splatter)
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posted 21 November 2005 11:29 AM      Profile for HACK (splatter)     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:

How is this a putdown of civil servants? I just can't see anyone wanting to be one - that's not a comment on their skills and/or abilities.



Why wouldn't someone want to be a civil servant?


From: God's Country | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nanabush
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posted 21 November 2005 02:13 PM      Profile for Nanabush     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Tally Ho posted:
quote:
About a month ago I had a toothache. I called up my dentist and she saw me that morning. It cost me $167. Out of my pocket. My pain was taken care of and I could go back to leading a normal life. no need to wait 4 months to see a specialist who does fillings.
That's private health care.

I also wear glasses I paid for. I went into the optomitrists... he saw me right away and I got a prescription and had a a pair of glasses in 2 days.

That's private health care.

We already have private health care in many areas and it works fine for me. I like the option.


Usual sort of simplistic example used by Voodoo economic neocons to justify Private Health Care.
OK - Tally old boy - now apply your model to Surgery for say US$100,000 or drugs for say $20,000 per month?
Does it still come out of your own pocket?
Oh! What's that you say? Buy Private Health Insurance? Sure - but let's say you have a pre-existing condition - can you get insurance now?
We are seeing in the series of arcticles in the Star this week (starting today) the end result of a Harris era attempt to move into a pre-private heath care model IMO. Harris and his Health ministers tried to move key functionsout of the hands of Ministry of Health and into a couple of arms length agencies they set up.
Had they succeeded, they would have been that much easier to move to the next stage of full private sector delivery.


From: God's Country | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 21 November 2005 04:23 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Merrick:

Niiiice. Now, take your head and remove it from the rings around Uranus. Come back to Earth and pick up a newspaper. There are private clinics in Canada and they aren't going anywhere.



If I (and most of the people here) have anything to do with it, the ones that are not operating within the strict legal bounds of the Canada Health Act are going into bankrupcy.

BTW, it's rather amazing that you've managed to post 80-odd times without once making an intelligent contribution to the dialog here (partcularly with that mouth of yours).

I see that you're a student. Are your papers as insubstantial and fact-free as your postings here?


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
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posted 21 November 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:

If I (and most of the people here) have anything to do with it, the ones that are not operating within the strict legal bounds of the Canada Health Act are going into bankrupcy.

BTW, it's rather amazing that you've managed to post 80-odd times without once making an intelligent contribution to the dialog here (partcularly with that mouth of yours).

I see that you're a student. Are your papers as insubstantial and fact-free as your postings here?


Oh. I'm sorry. You must know a members financial ability to access private healthcare and be certin of their inability to help sustain a 2nd tier? You say I make insubstancial fact-free postings?

Call me a troll all you wish. Seems to be the sport of choice in these parts but, don't presume to be better than others when you attack a person ionvolving finances you couldn't even presume to know, then state a whole portion of society is in the same category. Well.. unless that is constructive where you come from.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1245

posted 21 November 2005 06:43 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
-snip-
By the way, that's not restricted to doctors that work in their own offices. When I've had occassion to visit Canadian hospitals I've usually ended up writing two checks, one to the hospital to cover their fees and one to cover the doctor's fees. That second check is payable directly to the doctor, not to the provincial health plan and not to the hospital.
I've also had dealings with a doctor whose offices are in a very large Ontario hospital. I wrote a check directly to him. Hospital charges got paid through the business office.
-
Well, that's outrageous. I've been a patient in Ontario, Quebec, and Newfoundland hospitals, and I've never once paid a cent, and I'm 56 years old.

BoomBoom,

I'm not sure why you find it outrageous. I don't live in Canada and rarely visit. I'm not covered by any Canadian health plan so on those occassions that I do have to seek treatment in Canada I pay out of my own pocket and get reimbursed by my insurance company. As a result I'm aware of who's being paid by who. [By the way, my insurance company would prefer to pay directly but I'd rather control things.]

The doctor I was referencing above has offices in a major Ontario hospital. If I was covered by OHIP, QHIP, or whatever, his office would have submitted a bill for his services and the hospital would have submitted a separate bill for hospital charges. I would never have seen either bill or been aware there are separate charges.

However, the fact remains that he's not an employee of the hospital so the hospital could not have billed for him and then reimbursed him.

Ditto other visits. When my daughter was about six months old we went to visit grandparents in Ontario - when she came down with a fever my mother called her GP who agreed to see us - I wrote him a check, not OHIP, him. The next day her fever spiked and we took her to emerg. Several hours later when we left I went to the business office to pay the bill (they took Mastercard). Two separate charges, one to the hospital (which included Xrays etc.), one for the doctor that we saw.

If you want to go back 30 years to when I still lived in Ontario - I was in the interior of BC and ended up visiting emerg. Not only did I have to write two checks, one to the hospital and one to the doctor, but they both refused to bill OHIP (as a broke student that was not well received I must say) but both said that dealing with OHIP was so unpleasant that even the hospital wouldn't do it. I had to send my bills in - admittedly it took six months but I ultimately got reimbursed.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 21 November 2005 06:47 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You must know a members financial ability to access private healthcare and be certin of their inability to help sustain a 2nd tier?
Can anyone decipher this?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10855

posted 21 November 2005 06:56 PM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Lard tunderin' jeesus:
Can anyone decipher this?

Cute.

You must know Morpheseus' financial ability to access private healthcare, and be certin of their inability to help sustain a 2nd tier?

Seeing as you are so knowledgeable and all.


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 21 November 2005 07:08 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I made my point, and you aren't dealing with it. The 'second tier option' that neo-con scum always claim to want doesn't exist - but not, as they so often claim, because it is illegal. It is perfectly legal, so long as it does not try to access the public purse.

If you want a parallel system, put your money where your mouth is and pay for one.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Merrick
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10855

posted 21 November 2005 07:23 PM      Profile for Merrick        Edit/Delete Post
The only points you made were:

1. You hate conservatives,
2. You think conservatives are cheap,
3. You are willing to make baseless accusations to promote a personal bias against someone elses ideology.

Alberta is looking at ways to take the burden off public healthcare. so what? Happens in provinces all over Canada. The idea of just throwing money at the problem isn't sufficient. It's what we've been doing for countless years and it's not changing. So, what should we do? Just ignore the problem or look into other methods?


From: Canada | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1275

posted 21 November 2005 07:27 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, what should we do?
Try dealing with the point at hand for a change?

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
abnormal
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1245

posted 21 November 2005 07:29 PM      Profile for abnormal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No need to set up a private health delivery network. It already exists. The GP in private practice, the Xray clinic down the road from the hospital, the physiotherapist you get referred to, your chiropractor, your dentist, and so forth. The only difference I see is that some of them can bill the provincial health system and some can't. Last set of numbers I saw said something like 65%+ (?) of health services were delivered by private practitioners. I expect that something like 90% is paid for by the public purse but don't fool yourself by thinking that Canada has a single provider system. It's a single payer system (mostly).

In addition to the unlisted/delisted services (e.g., dentistry, chiropractic, drugs) there are already private providers of health insurance. For those that have an employer sponsored plan, they may well find they are entitled to semi-private rooms as opposed to public wards, some or all of their dental costs are covered, some or all of their drug costs are covered, eye exams (and eyeglasses) and other services may well be covered. This is private medical coverage.

When you travel outside of Canada you can purchase "Out of Province" medical insurance from a private company that pays the difference between local charges and the OHIP (or whatever) fee schedule. Depending on the plan, it will also pay for things like air ambulances to bring you home.

There are doctors that do perform procedures that are not covered by OHIP as well as procedures that are. For example, the guy that does LASIK bills his patients directly since that's not a covered procedure. However, he may well perform cataract surgery (IOL's) a couple of days a week and bill the government plan for that since it is covered.


From: far, far away | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 21 November 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by abnormal:
How is this a putdown of civil servants? I just can't see anyone wanting to be one - that's not a comment on their skills and/or abilities.

That wouldn't have anything to do with the generally regressive right-wing bash-the-government trend our society's been on for the last 20 years now would it? GOSH NO IT CAN'T BE!

Please. In the sixties and seventies the crackerjacks and the eggheads went into civil service because that's where they were needed and appreciated. Come the eighties, they stopped coming in because the government wasn't interested in hiring people to fix problems.

Why would they, when breaking the system is the ideological endpoint of the Conservatives and Chretien-Martin Liberals? It's not in their interest to preserve and expand a responsive and responsible civil service and it is in their interest to make sure that attitudes like yours prevail throughout the population, further building in a bias against smart crackerjacks getting into the civil service and making it go the way it was designed to do forty years ago.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7791

posted 21 November 2005 08:32 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by abnormal:
I'm not sure why you find it outrageous. I don't live in Canada and rarely visit. I'm not covered by any Canadian health plan so on those occassions that I do have to seek treatment in Canada I pay out of my own pocket and get reimbursed by my insurance company.

I wasn't aware you didn't live in Canada.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged

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