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Author Topic: Heather Mallick's Column
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 05:13 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did anyone else find parts of this column incredibly offensive?

quote:
She added nothing to the ticket that the Republicans didn't already have sewn up, the white trash vote, the demographic that sullies America's name inside and outside its borders yet has such a curious appeal for the right.

White trash has roots as a racist term (ie whites that associate with blacks) and is also classist.

quote:
Palin was not a sure choice, not even for the stolidly Republican ladies branch of Citizens for a Tackier America. No, she isn't even female really. She's a type, and she comes in male form too.


She is wrong on a lot of things and has been loose with the truth, but she is definitely female. I find it incredibly offensive when people make the comment " she is not really female" or "he is not really black" based on politics. Ugh.

The original thread on cbc.ca has some commentators saying they will complain to the CBC ombudsman about this column.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Ghislaine ]


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 10 September 2008 05:28 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, that's not a term I would have used.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 September 2008 05:58 AM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a shame that Mallick concedes Alaska hillbillies and "white trash" to the Republicans. As she notes, with reference to Thomas Frank, the mystery of the hick vote is that they'd be better served by another political party. But her descriptions of the type that supports the thuggish right, despite their own social interests, is excellent and on the money ...

quote:
White trash ... is rural, loud, proudly unlettered (like Bush himself), suspicious of the urban, frankly disbelieving of the foreign, and a fan of the American cliché of authenticity. The semiotics are pure Palin: a sturdy body, clothes that are clinging yet boxy and a voice that could peel the plastic seal off your new microwave.

Palin has a toned-down version of the porn actress look favoured by this decade's woman, the overtreated hair, puffy lips and permanently alarmed expression.


A follow-up column in which Mallick discovers her "inner hick" and quotes Don Herron's Charlie Farquharson, Will Rogers from Oklahoma, or RedGreen from Possum Lodge, would be a good supplement to the first article and draw attention to a different sort of rural tradition that stands for something other than Republican venom and microcephalic heads.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 10 September 2008 06:23 AM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Did anyone else find parts of this column incredibly offensive?

If you are looking for offensive try checking out Palin's response to Obama's victory over Clinton.

words I'd rather not repeat

As far as the comments on the CBC site it looks like someone must have linked the article to freedominion or something as the spittle-flecked, reactionary rantomatic generators seem to be in full force.

Personally I avoid using the term white trash,(no it is not racist) it is however classist, however as North America seems ready to further embrace fascism I think I'll find something else to worry about.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
HeatherM
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posted 10 September 2008 07:14 AM      Profile for HeatherM        Edit/Delete Post
Hi fellow babblers
Thank you for being so civilized, even if you disagree. I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash, and she thinks raped incest victims should bear their dad's baby, don't get me started ...)

God knows what's happening to John Doyle for having called Palin an Alaskan hillbilly, but I am getting hundreds of emails from the American south. My husband vets all my email for death threats and he comes in with my coffee in the morning, saying "The consensus in West Virginia is that you are a f------ c---. In the Caroliinas, however, you are a lonely lesbian. The coffee this morning is organic fair trade Costa Rican." Then he laughs quietly to himself in his British way.

I feel so bad making the guy read alll this stuff from Obama-haters. But he says the Canadian right-wingers are angry but restrained, which is good. I am proud of Canadians for their sanity and politeness.
Is there really a Bob Jones of Bob Jones University? He wants to meet me, I take it with an AK-47 in his hand.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 10 September 2008 07:44 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
From Mallick's column:
What normal father would want Levi "I'm a fuckin' redneck" Johnson prodding his daughter?

I know that I have an attachment to children that verges on the irrational, but why don't the Palins? I'm not the one preaching homespun values but I'd destroy that ratboy before I'd let him get within scenting range of my daughter again, and so would you.


I didn't know that parents had the right to dictate who their 17 year old daughters have sex with...


From: Eleutherophobics of the World...Unite!!!!! | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 08:00 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeatherM:
Hi fellow babblers
Thank you for being so civilized, even if you disagree. I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash, and she thinks raped incest victims should bear their dad's baby, don't get me started ...)



Fine. The term does have racist and classist undertones however.

Why did you write that she is not female? Women can hold any views - even anti-feminist ones- and they are still female. That is the part I found most offensive and frankly sexist.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 08:00 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Is there really a Bob Jones of Bob Jones University? He wants to meet me, I take it with an AK-47 in his hand.[/QB]

Yes, Heather, there is a Bob Jones (though I prefer Billy-Bob Jones University).

You can identify your tryst-mate by this enlightening video (where he is born again--twice--so it looks like your only defense against the AK 47 is a wooden stake).
Bob Jones died--and was sent back from heavens gate


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 08:21 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:

Why did you write that she is not female?



Now that's a literalist enough reading of what Heather said to get you tuition to Billy-Bob Jones University.

Mallik:"No, she isn't even female really. She's a type, and she comes in male form too."


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 08:29 AM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I have a close friend who gave birth to the daughter of a rapist. I will have to inform her that Heather Mallick wishes her fine and loving daughter was never born.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 08:40 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
I have a close friend who gave birth to the daughter of a rapist. I will have to inform her that Heather Mallick wishes her fine and loving daughter was never born.

Assuming for just a moment you are not just a troll,
--how clueless are you? The essence of "choice" is precisely not other people's "wishes" (or state demands), it is that your alleged friend has a choice whether or not she wishes to carry her rapist's fetus to term.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: contrarianna ]


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 08:45 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
I have a close friend who gave birth to the daughter of a rapist. I will have to inform her that Heather Mallick wishes her fine and loving daughter was never born.

That was her choice and no one here is suggesting that she should not have that choice.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 10 September 2008 08:51 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ghislaine:
Did anyone else find parts of this column incredibly offensive?
Nope, i thought she was dead on the money, so to speak, and very amusing while doing it.

What I found really offensive was having a Stephen Harper picture up, with his thumb up, on the rabble main page. Though one could choose to take it as his giving approval for Mallick's words, I suppose.

quote:
The original thread on cbc.ca has some commentators saying they will complain to the CBC ombudsman about this column.

For what? Giving her opinion?


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 09:01 AM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

For what? Giving her opinion?


For being paid by the taxpayer for using an arguably racist and classist phrase.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 09:04 AM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash, and she thinks raped incest victims should bear their dad's baby"

Any woman who freely chooses to bring a child to birth, regardless of who the father is, deserves to be respected. The daughter of my friend knows full well the stigma of being the daughter of a rapist -- there are people who have taunted her for being born, and she had known people who have especially degraded and trashed her white-skinned mother for her free choice. Mallick has clearly demonstrated that if a woman does not freely choose as mallick would have chosen, then that woman deserves to be trashed for her free choice.

Get it?


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 09:09 AM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Contrarian said: "your alleged friend's daughter has a choice whether or not she wishes to carry her rapist's fetus to term."

You need a reading and comprehension refresher course. I never said that my friend's daughter gave birth to the rapist's child.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 10 September 2008 09:11 AM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
"I called Palin "white trash" (why? because she is white and she is trash, and she thinks raped incest victims should bear their dad's baby"

Any woman who freely chooses to bring a child to birth, regardless of who the father is, deserves to be respected. The daughter of my friend knows full well the stigma of being the daughter of a rapist -- there are people who have taunted her for being born, and she had known people who have especially degraded and trashed her white-skinned mother for her free choice. Mallick has clearly demonstrated that if a woman does not freely choose as mallick would have chosen, then that woman deserves to be trashed for her free choice.

Get it?


No that's not what Mallick is saying at all. I don't like the phrases either but that doesn't mean that she's saying that.

She is saying that she thinks Palin is not good (trash) because PALIN thinks that no woman should be given the choice. PALIN wants to make it illegal for women to have any say in the matter, no matter what their end choice is. So your friend would not have even had the ability to make any choice whatsoever. It would have been made for her by somebody else.

Get it?


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 09:22 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mallick has the unfortunate habit of dealing in caricatures and stereotypes. Reading her stuff is (stylistically) a lot like reading a monologue by Bill Maher or Dennis Miller, only not as funny.
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 09:28 AM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
In every legal sense, I have voted for free choice, however, I am disgusted with the unbridled malice of too many pro-choicers, and as much as you want to downgrade Mallick's hateful and spiteful rant, makes me want to say that Mallick is more representative of maliciousness of too many feminists.

Mallick has brought down a once respectable movement to a gang of schoolyard bullies who tease, taunt, and degrade those who do not hold the same political view 100% of the time.

I disagree with Palin's stand of compulsory birth, but I disgree more deeply with Mallick's highly degenerate and offensive behaviour towards another woman.


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 09:29 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
Contrarian said: "your alleged friend's daughter has a choice whether or not she wishes to carry her rapist's fetus to term."

You need a reading and comprehension refresher course. I never said that my friend's daughter gave birth to the rapist's child.



Thanks for pointing that out wally, I have corrected my error in reporting your relationships, yet my point is unchanged and your illogic persists.

From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 09:33 AM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
Mallick has clearly demonstrated that if a woman does not freely choose as mallick would have chosen, then that woman deserves to be trashed for her free choice.
Either this is a bald-faced lie, or you are the one who needs to take a reading comprehension course.

You choose.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 10 September 2008 09:35 AM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting, I find Maher and Miller to be less than funny, and also find Miller quite sexist.

And I see we have another example of sexism with our newest whitest knight running to Palin's rescue trying to deliver and ALL women from us bad feminists, who give feminism, a bad name apparently.

Oh, the guilt, the shame, the horror...

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: remind ]


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 11:08 AM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:

I disagree with Palin's stand of compulsory birth, but I disgree more deeply with Mallick's highly degenerate and offensive behaviour towards another woman.


"Highly degenerate" is a better description of your fake libertarianism. It's fake because you take more offense at the tone of those you disagree with than with those who actually want to legislate a faith-based elimination of choice. Your linked blog indicates a devotion to right-wing oriented "free speech" sites yet your support of Palin ignores her attempt to get a librarian fired for failing to ban books she didn't like. "Choice" and "Free speech", for you, is obviously just a disposable talking point.

From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 September 2008 11:33 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like Heather, and get what she means about "Palin" being a manufactured product.

What I do find very questionable about what she wrote is the idea of parents considering teenagers who are past the "age of consent" as their chattel. It is none of her parents' f-ing business whom a 17-year-old chooses to sleep with. God knows we've all made mistakes in that regard. Oddly, in that Heather resembles Sarah Palin.

Though teenagers must have access to sex education and contraception, including abortion.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
contrarianna
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posted 10 September 2008 12:02 PM      Profile for contrarianna     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't always agree with Mallick, and for me there are a number of dead lilys in this bouquet. But don't forget this is meant as a humour column and hyperbole is a device she favours.

So if you are referring to the following quote in your criticism, you might just as well decry that she is advocating killing "ratboy".
"I know that I have an attachment to children that verges on the irrational, but why don't the Palins? I'm not the one preaching homespun values but I'd destroy that ratboy before I'd let him get within scenting range of my daughter again"


From: here to inanity | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
morningstar
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posted 10 September 2008 12:18 PM      Profile for morningstar     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
good grief---I'm still laughing---I thank the universe for H.M.everytime I begin to feel that it's all just too much.
She says all of the things that I was carefully trained out of saying and it's honest and hiliarious.
If any of it prickles a bit, just take it with a dose of giggles--it surely does us good.

From: stratford, on | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 September 2008 12:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I like Mallick too, although she does tend to come across as snobby quite often, even when I agree with her.

I chanced to hear some of "The Stafford Show" after "Leafs Lunch" on the internet today. Even if by accident, and even if hearing these yahoos encourages my inner hick to reach for the shotgun and blow up my computer real good, it's occasionally interesting to hear what the looney-tune right-wing fringe, (a.k.a. "The Mainstream Media") has to say.

Guess, what? Mike and his sidekick were talking about our Heather today. Mike said she's insane, although characteristically, he wasn't bothered by questions of sexism or classism, two issues which rate far lower in importance than the heartbreak of psoriasis or pattern baldness in his books.

He also said she should be kicked off the taxpayer-funded CBC and get a real journalism job; one where she would have to answer to advertisers. Mikey has a point there, anyone who strays from the message that liberal-capitalism in all its glorious manifestations is the Lord's work ought to be unemployed.

There really isn't room for unfettered thought in the arena of public opinion. It's just bad for business.

That said, as a working-class Saskavite with strong rural roots, I'm not crazy about such classist terms as "white trash" or "hillbilly," given that we here in the land of living skies have been called, for example, "inbred banjo-pickers" by those to the east of us.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 01:25 PM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Contrarian writes: "Your linked blog indicates a devotion to right-wing oriented "free speech" sites yet your support of Palin ignores her attempt to get a librarian fired for failing to ban books she didn't like. "Choice" and "Free speech", for you, is obviously just a disposable talking point."

You can be sure that I would have slapped Palin's hand in that instance of her banning a book. You assume that I am a supporter of Palin in every instance -- your presumption is erroneous. Yes, I habituate several "right wing" sites because, unlike the left, I support their premise that the Human Rights Commissions in Canada are gagging free speech above and beyond what the Victorians did in their day.

I guess you are one of those who tar people as guilty by association. So if there is "white trash" then what would qualify as "black trash?"


From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Wally Keeler
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posted 10 September 2008 01:31 PM      Profile for Wally Keeler   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Heather Mallick is a paid agent of the government of Canada via the CBC. Part of my tax paid for the malevolent fungus growing inside her mouth. If there is any "white trash" on this thread it is her. Why? Because she is white and because she is trash, and because she uses taxpayers money to poison debate with malevolent and peurile arguements. She sucks federal taxcock and swallows it. She is a typical bureauCRAP.
From: Toronto | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 01:32 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wally Keeler:
She sucks federal taxcock and swallows it.

Uh, yeah. Bye, misogynist.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 September 2008 01:33 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That last comment was unnecessary and offensive. I don't think it is fitting on Babble to have a Rabble columnist subjected to overt misongyny.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 September 2008 01:34 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cross posted with Michelle. Thx Michelle
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 01:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Jinx, buy me a drink!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 10 September 2008 01:35 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sometimes Maoist re-education camps just seem to make sense
From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 01:40 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
That last comment was unnecessary and offensive. I don't think it is fitting on Babble to have a Rabble columnist subjected to overt misongyny.
You don't, however, seem to have any problem with babblers accusing each other of a white-trash debating style.

From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 September 2008 01:42 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
You don't, however, seem to have any problem with babblers accusing each other of a white-trash debating style.

Back to stalking people are you. Go get a life. You seem to know how to write sarcasm why can't you understand it?

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 September 2008 01:47 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, Heather Mallick is not "white". She is of mixed background; South Asian and Scottish, if I'm not mistaken.

al Q, I've never heard that about people from Saskatchewan. The only Westerners I've heard slagged here in a stereotypical sense are Albertans. I think there is a lot of respect for Saskatchewan as the cradle of social democracy.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 10 September 2008 01:52 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The culture wars are too important to be sidetracked by sniping, misogyny, and so on. There's no reason why Mallick's remarks can't be a catalyst for good debate on babble in which light, and not only heat, is produced.

Crap. Did I take a liberal pill or something? Anyway, carry on.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 01:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't see that at the time or I would have said something.

The term "white trash" is not only classist, which is obvious, but racist as well. And I don't mean "reverse racism" either. When someone says that someone is "white trash" there is an assumption in that phrase. An assumption that "trash" usually isn't "white" and therefore when it is, the phrase needs to be qualified.

White trash, as opposed to the usual plain old trash.

What "white trash" means.

A way to insult poor people with low education and no prospects. (Complete with the racist assumption being that you have to differentiate the WHITE "trash" from all the rest of the "trash".)


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 September 2008 02:01 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I didn't see that at the time or I would have said something.

The term "white trash" is not only classist, which is obvious, but racist as well. And I don't mean "reverse racism" either. When someone says that someone is "white trash" there is an assumption in that phrase. An assumption that "trash" usually isn't "white" and therefore when it is, the phrase needs to be qualified.

White trash, as opposed to the usual plain old trash.

What "white trash" means.

A way to insult poor people with low education and no prospects. (Complete with the racist assumption being that you have to differentiate the WHITE "trash" from all the rest of the "trash".)


quote:
Only a fool would seek to expunge from the English language all references to the colour black, out of a combination of ignorance and white liberal guilt.
If you had responded to this comment which is what my sarcastic response was replying too I wound not have. When I am being called a fool, ignorant and a liberal seldom will I not respond.

From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
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posted 10 September 2008 02:09 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
I like Heather, and get what she means about "Palin" being a manufactured product.

What I do find very questionable about what she wrote is the idea of parents considering teenagers who are past the "age of consent" as their chattel. It is none of her parents' f-ing business whom a 17-year-old chooses to sleep with. God knows we've all made mistakes in that regard. Oddly, in that Heather resembles Sarah Palin.

Though teenagers must have access to sex education and contraception, including abortion.


I agree with your last line, lagatta, but I am totally with HM on the "ratboy" comment. It's more complicated than the idea of teenager as chattel -- and yes, as the mother of two daughters who are not yet but will in a few years be teenagers, everything that has a big effect on their lives has a huge effect on mine.

I might have agreed with your assessment before I had kids, but now I just don't see it through the same lens. It's different remembering what it felt like to be a teenager and knowing what it feels like to be responsible for someone else.

quote:
I didn't know that parents had the right to dictate who their 17 year old daughters have sex with...

What does "right" have to do with it?


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 02:19 PM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I didn't see that at the time or I would have said something.

The term "white trash" is not only classist, which is obvious, but racist as well. And I don't mean "reverse racism" either. When someone says that someone is "white trash" there is an assumption in that phrase. An assumption that "trash" usually isn't "white" and therefore when it is, the phrase needs to be qualified.

White trash, as opposed to the usual plain old trash.

What "white trash" means.

A way to insult poor people with low education and no prospects. (Complete with the racist assumption being that you have to differentiate the WHITE "trash" from all the rest of the "trash".)


So is Heather M banned along with Wally?


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 September 2008 02:27 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"While white trash is most commonly used as a pejorative, low- to middle-income rural whites often self-identify as rednecks."

Didn't that guy who may soon become Sarah Palin's son-in-law call himself a redneck?

About a year ago I was in a room full of tractor mechanics who proudly self-identified as "crackers." They thought it was funny being a cultural stereotype, down to the cliché of having gun-racks in the rear window of their half-tons.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 02:34 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by kropotkin1951:
Back to stalking people are you. Go get a life. You seem to know how to write sarcasm why can't you understand it?
Stalking you? Ha. I wouldn't bother. I was in this thread a long time before you were. You came along and started making pronouncements about what babblers shouldn't be calling one another. I merely exposed your hypocrisy.

Ironic racism is not allowed on babble. Yet you defend classist, racist terminology directed in anger at another babbler as being "sarcasm".

Maybe you're the one who needs to get a life. Or at least a clue.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
kropotkin1951
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posted 10 September 2008 02:39 PM      Profile for kropotkin1951   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then just ignore my posts. You insulted me instead of debating the issue of language respectfully and I responded. I admit responding to your comments was beneath me and I apologise for stepping into the gutter with you to respond.
From: North of Manifest Destiny | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 02:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, guys. Calm down. I wasn't getting you in trouble, kropotkin, I was just saying that I think that the term "white trash" is really problematic, whether people are using it for humour, sarcasm, anger, justified outrage or whatever. In case people thought I was being inconsistent in having a problem with Wally's overt sexism, but not having a problem with "white trash". I definitely do have a problem with it.

In Wally's case, though, it was clear trolling, whereas Heather and kropotkin have a history here of being progressive, positive contributors to our forums and our web site, so obviously a different approach is needed when we or our allies say something problematic, right?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ghislaine
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posted 10 September 2008 02:48 PM      Profile for Ghislaine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
All right, guys. Calm down. I wasn't getting you in trouble, kropotkin, I was just saying that I think that the term "white trash" is really problematic, whether people are using it for humour, sarcasm, anger, justified outrage or whatever. In case people thought I was being inconsistent in having a problem with Wally's overt sexism, but not having a problem with "white trash". I definitely do have a problem with it.

In Wally's case, though, it was clear trolling, whereas Heather and kropotkin have a history here of being progressive, positive contributors to our forums and our web site, so obviously a different approach is needed when we or our allies say something problematic, right?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


So should such problematic terms be part of public broadcasting? I resent someone who is obviously well off using racist classist terminology and getting paid by us. I am surprised that the CBC editors would allow it as is.


From: L'Î-P-É | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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posted 10 September 2008 02:53 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Send them a letter then and spare us.
From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sineed
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posted 10 September 2008 03:12 PM      Profile for Sineed     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

The term "white trash" is not only classist, which is obvious, but racist as well. And I don't mean "reverse racism" either. When someone says that someone is "white trash" there is an assumption in that phrase. An assumption that "trash" usually isn't "white" and therefore when it is, the phrase needs to be qualified.

White trash, as opposed to the usual plain old trash.

What "white trash" means.

A way to insult poor people with low education and no prospects. (Complete with the racist assumption being that you have to differentiate the WHITE "trash" from all the rest of the "trash".)



This objection to Heather's use of "white trash" misses the point because you're taking it out of context.

If I were to call, say, one of my clients at the methadone clinic "white trash," it would be hurtful and offensive. But Heather is taking this pejorative and turning it on its head to apply it to someone who is potentially a heartbeat away from the presidency; someone who used her position as governor to exercise a petty vendetta; someone who forbids sex ed for teens; someone against abortion in all cases.

Heather is not using this term strictly as a pejorative. She's using it as a cultural critique.

When Heather speaks of "white trash," she is pointing to a damaging aspect of American culture. She enlarges on this more eloquently than I can, but basically it's that part of America that's proudly anti-intellectual, bigoted, hypocritical, falsely and manipulatively sentimental, xenophobic, war-mongering, and socially regressive.

And that's why so many people are pissed off at Heather: she's not just insulting Palin, but a lot of Americans.


From: # 668 - neighbour of the beast | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
remind
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posted 10 September 2008 03:44 PM      Profile for remind     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
Heather is not using this term strictly as a pejorative. She's using it as a cultural critique.

When Heather speaks of "white trash," she is pointing to a damaging aspect of American culture. She enlarges on this more eloquently than I can, but basically it's that part of America that's proudly anti-intellectual, bigoted, hypocritical, falsely and manipulatively sentimental, xenophobic, war-mongering, and socially regressive.

And that's why so many people are pissed off at Heather: she's not just insulting Palin, but a lot of Americans.


This bears repeating! Thank you, for pointing out Heather's, what I now consider brilliant, social critique, as I thought it was just amusing before, and thought everyone would get it.


From: "watching the tide roll away" | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 03:55 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's amazing how people turn themselves into pretzels trying to justify things said by their friends or their favourite political party leaders that they would go apeshit over if said by anyone else.


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 September 2008 03:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone remember that yanquisard who called us "frozen hillbillies"?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 10 September 2008 04:12 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For some reason, I'm reminded of this Facebook group that I stumbled across:

Gun-owning, Bible Believing Women Against Sarah Palin

excerpt: I own a gun. I believe the Bible contains all things necessary to salvation. And I believe Sarah Palin being elected VP is the worst thing that could happen on Nov. 4th. So, so much for stereotypes about who will support Sarah Palin!


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 04:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sineed:
If I were to call, say, one of my clients at the methadone clinic "white trash," it would be hurtful and offensive. But Heather is taking this pejorative and turning it on its head to apply it to someone who is potentially a heartbeat away from the presidency;

Actually, no she didn't. She used it to describe the people she figures might vote for Palin, not Palin herself.

quote:
She added nothing to the ticket that the Republicans didn't already have sewn up, the white trash vote, the demographic that sullies America's name inside and outside its borders yet has such a curious appeal for the right.

And even when people use that term to describe rich white people like Palin, it's still classist, because the reason it would be an insult is because it would mean that person is no better than a poor, uneducated person.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
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posted 10 September 2008 04:20 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
For some reason, I'm reminded of this Facebook group that I stumbled across:

Gun-owning, Bible Believing Women Against Sarah Palin

excerpt: I own a gun. I believe the Bible contains all things necessary to salvation. And I believe Sarah Palin being elected VP is the worst thing that could happen on Nov. 4th. So, so much for stereotypes about who will support Sarah Palin!


I've stumbled across a few similar places where similar sentiments are mentioned. I don't link to any because to be truthful they aren't so nice in many regards. She's not universially loved without critique in the realm the what you'd loosely call the rural Christian Right.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 10 September 2008 04:22 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Does anyone remember that yanquisard who called us "frozen hillbillies"?
Is that à propos of John Doyle calling S. Palin an "Alaska hillbilly" (a term Mallick
wishes she'd "had the wit" to come up with first)?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: M. Spector ]


From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 10 September 2008 04:31 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Ironic racism is not allowed on babble. Yet you defend classist, racist terminology directed in anger at another babbler as being "sarcasm".



I agree. If one type of "ironic racism" is not permitted, the same should apply to "white trash." Assuming Malick meant to be ironic.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 September 2008 05:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by M. Spector:
Is that à propos of John Doyle calling S. Palin an "Alaska hillbilly" (a term Mallick
wishes she'd "had the wit" to come up with first)?

Indirectly, I suppose.

I don't have the patience to do a rabble search on him, but this yahoo (I don't remember what he called himself) was pretty funny in displaying his ignorance of Canadians while berating us. He was banned within a couple of weeks of appearing here, if I remember correctly.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 10 September 2008 05:22 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
Heather's mistake was in choosing a crude caricature of life in the U.S. Heartland, instead of doing the research to find the nuances that make a real difference in understanding the variety of social life there.


As Joe Bageant explains (from the persepective of a long-time resident):
[QUOTE]
Life is about work for the American redneck. By redneck, I mean all kinds of rednecks, not just southern ones, ranging from Polish and Hungarian stock rednecks of the Appalachian coal country to the Scandinavian ones of the logging Northwest. In the South and the Midwest there are even Jewish rednecks who drive muscle cars and brawl and love country music. For all these people work is an obsession and has been for generations stretching back to the textile mills, the homesteads of the West and Midwest, the immigrant labor mines of West Virginia and Colorado and Montana, the subsistence farms of the South. The forbears of today’s rednecks were people for whom not working meant their families would starve. Literally. So the work ethic is burned into their genetic code.

(Incidentally, I am not talking about white trash here. I am talking about rednecks, the difference being that rednecks work themselves to death and will never accept a handout. White trash folks do not have the same hang-up.) In the redneck mind, lazy is the worst thing a person can be -worse than dumb, drunk or mean, worse than being a liar and a jailbird or crazy. The absolute worst thing that a redneck can say about anyone is: “He doesn’t want to work,” which is generally followed by “Hell, I don’t want to either, but I have to.” By the same logic, educated liberals who have time to read, who in fact read so much that they join book clubs, are suspect.
[END QUOTE]

Palin is a redneck, and appeals to rednecks.

John Doyle is also being lazy in simply classifying Palin as "Alaskan Hillbilly". That's something out of an earlier time, a Lil' Abner creation from the Ozarks or the southern Appalachians.

And I hope that nobody will see Bageant as guilty of anything more than bringing light to opaque - and clearly sensitive areas - of liberal thought.

----------------------------------------------

farmpunk with his take on Bageant's Deer Hunting With Jesus:

[QUOTE]
Farmpunk
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 12955
posted 06 September 2008 12:07 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bageant writes nothing like HST. That's jacket copy fluff.
Some of Bageant's racial commentaries will not go over well with babblers, George. Accept that.
[END QUOTE]

You warned me, three or four times, and I'm now a believer, farmpunk. Yessirree bob! But I'm still surprised as hell.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 10 September 2008 05:36 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that Mallick could have used "redneck", but she was going for an extra amount of contempt, the one rednecks have for WT if I follow Bageant's analysis. Could she have unconsciously been trying to insert her critique between the two groups, kow-towing to the redneck vote? A difficult trick to achieve when wearing a pearl necklace. More simply, she was really speaking to her own group, trying to wean pundits away from Palin's draw. It's somewhat trickier to try and warn the people away from a populist when you're heads and shoulders above their class.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
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posted 10 September 2008 05:41 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
If she also says that Alaskan Hillbilly sounds good, what makes you think that she knows the difference (to the people who are involved). I believe she is an honest writer and would not have misrepresented the "thinking" (if one can use that concept about people that Bageant says are truly unread and ignorant) of the people themselves.
From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 September 2008 05:59 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Urban, educated people work too. Some of them are privileged, but more and more of us are doing freelance, temporary or contingent work. I spend the whole fucking day reading (on the screen, dictionaries, reference works). Reading can also be work.

I don't think being hard-working is the reason for the deep suspicion of "intellectuals" in US culture. People work just as much in other countries - in poorer countries they have to work harder still - but there is not the same degree of anti-intellectualism.

And I have a lot of working-class relatives (working class in the traditional sense, such as garment workers) who wear pearl or gold necklaces whenever they can. But the poor dears are urban, so I guess they aren't the "heartland"...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 10 September 2008 06:05 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't read misrepresentation. Mallick's an awesome column, reaching into all kinds of unexplored places where we progressives fear to tread about what drives our opposition. But it still fails on a level I can't quite grasp but which her choice of insults illustrates.
Andrea Dworkin is one of the few North-American writers who has tried to describe, understand and touch our failing at countering how women are suckered by the Right into a self-destructive politic - something Mallick also summarizes brilliantly. Dworkin went as far as to actually attend a Republican Party convention, where she was almost mobbed, an experience she recounts in her book "Right-Wing Women". She positions that failing in the male Left's obdurate misogyny and sexual self-interest, esp. around the issue of abortion.
quote:
GV: ...I believe she is an honest writer and would not have misrepresented the "thinking" (if one can use that concept about people that Bageant says are truly unread and ignorant) of the people themselves....

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 10 September 2008 06:09 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She's real, she has guts, and she speaks her mind strongly and forcefully. Good for her. The Left is so busy parsing every freakin' sentence it's paralyzed and useless and its issues are eroding by the second. The failure of the left is the failure of the left to quit fucking naval gazing.

Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled eating of your own.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 06:14 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
Ahem, right.
If you read, and try to understand what's going on in the world, you don't fall into any of those categories.


[QUOTE]
What’s needed, he adds, is “for someone to say out loud: ’ Now lookee here, dammit! We are dumber than a sack of hair and should ‘a got an education so we would have half a notion of what’s going on in the world.’ Someone once told me that and, along with the advice never to mix Mad Dog 20/20 with whiskey, it is the best advice I ever received. But no one in America is about to say such a thing out lout because it sounds elitist. It sounds un-American and undemocratic. It also might get your nose broken in certain venues.”
[END QUOTE]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 06:31 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When someone says that someone is "white trash" there is an assumption in that phrase. An assumption that "trash" usually isn't "white" and therefore when it is, the phrase needs to be qualified.

So if I say that John McCain is an Old White Fool is there an assumption that anyone who is not old and white is also a fool?


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 06:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found George Victor's Joe Bageant quote (what's the source, by the way?) interesting; he's describing where I come from, although I'd never describe...well...most of my family as "rednecks."

quote:
A difficult trick to achieve when wearing a pearl necklace.

"Pearl necklace"? Does such blatantly sexist language have a place on babble?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 06:38 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
FMs comment on the exchange in this thread:
[QUOTE]
Sorry, back to your regularly scheduled eating of your own.
[END QUOTE]

Could the chief interlocutor please round out this rather catchy comment, "flesh it out" for this cannibal?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 10 September 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dworkin makes me a bit ill. Not because she was a "radical feminist" (with all that implies good and bad) but because she was profoundly self-destructive and it really comes out in her writing.

Her anti-sexual stuff gives me the creeps, much as I've rebelled against male entitlement in that milieu.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 06:42 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
The "source", Al, is there in the book lounge, right next door.
Have a boo. You'll find there's a standing invitation in that thread for just such comments.

Prove farmpunk wrong!


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 06:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I dunno, he usually does that all by himself.

[ed.]

Ok, after skimming through that thread I have to apologise to Farmpunk.

I agree with some of what he said over there, although I disagree with his generalisation of babblers as being fans of "academic" writing. I have three degrees, and I detest that pompous fluff.

This is dead-on, though:

quote:
The strongest parts of the book are when Bageant writes about the dissconnection between the people who live in small town America and the political class\elites and the economic reality of smaller town life. It reminded me of how some babblers, myself included, have written about how and why the NDP has little rural Canadian presence.

Over on Enmasse we had a Toronto Nude Em (he bugs people here, too) telling us western hayseeds how stupid we were for feeling alienated by the down-east urban focus of the NDP.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 10 September 2008 06:46 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Pearl necklace"? Does such blatantly sexist language have a place on babble?
I don't think this indication is sexist, although I will stand corrected if women tell me so. I wrote it as an indicator of Mallick's class and could have written, "Not a easy trick to achieve when you are an acclaimed broadcaster."

From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
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posted 10 September 2008 06:59 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
She's real, she has guts, and she speaks her mind strongly and forcefully. Good for her. The Left is so busy parsing every freakin' sentence it's paralyzed and useless and its issues are eroding by the second. The failure of the left is the failure of the left to quit fucking naval gazing.

Exactly. Palin is a vicious lying openly racist fanatic who is poised to be the Vice President of the world's most powerful country and people are concerned that we might have somehow insulted those who are brutishly ignorant and dangerous as she is?


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 10 September 2008 07:05 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah, okay. So if we don't like Condi Rice and Colin Powell, then we'll just call them the n-word, shall we?

And if we don't like Palin's female supporters, we'll just call them all a bunch of stupid cunts. That's okay, right?

I saw a whole bunch of dumb cunts at the Republican convention cheering on Palin. Man, what a bunch of rich bitch whores, huh?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
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posted 10 September 2008 07:06 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In reponse to NRK: Yup. Insulting the people whose vote you're trying to sway is - if only that - bad politics.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 10 September 2008 07:13 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was the problem with the incessant "Bush is a moron" stuff that ran throughout the last eight years. True or not, it was calling all his supporters morons too and only served to make them defensive and less open to the message of how bad his presidency is.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 10 September 2008 07:20 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
In reponse to NRK: Yup. Insulting the people whose vote you're trying to sway is - if only that - bad politics.

Is it Heather Mallick's intention; to sway the opinion of vicious bigots with entrenched fanatical attachment to reactionary ideologies? I would think more her intent is to expose dangerous small minded reactionaries for what they are.


quote:
Ah, okay. So if we don't like Condi Rice and Colin Powell, then we'll just call them the n-word, shall we?

Sorry but that is purely unimaginative and gratuitous relativism. This is clearly not the same thing and you know that.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 10 September 2008 07:21 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are not going to sway their votes unless you a) agree a woman is subservient to a man; b) the earth is only 10 thousand years old and Darwin is a tool of Satan, and; c) climate change is a hoax to prevent us from our God given right to use up every damned last drop of oil.

Grow up.

quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Ah, okay. So if we don't like Condi Rice and Colin Powell, then we'll just call them the n-word, shall we?

And if we don't like Palin's female supporters, we'll just call them all a bunch of stupid cunts. That's okay, right?

I saw a whole bunch of dumb cunts at the Republican convention cheering on Palin. Man, what a bunch of rich bitch whores, huh?



Bull. Whatever the origins of the term "white trash" it is different from the contemporary meaning which usually encompasses people like Palin who have a streak of racism:

quote:
“So Sambo beat the bitch!”

This is how Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin described Barack Obama’s win over Hillary Clinton to political colleagues in a restaurant a few days after Obama locked up the Democratic Party presidential nomination.



These are the supporters you want to sway?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
HeatherM
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9829

posted 10 September 2008 07:28 PM      Profile for HeatherM        Edit/Delete Post
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.

djs5776@sbcglobal.net
Message: So you don\'t like Sarah Palin you ugly slut? Fuck you, you liberal piece of shit. I\'ll bet your cunt smells like rotten meat. You are one ugly cunt. I\'d love to punch you right in your chops and knock every tooth out of your head. Come see me bitch! I have something for you. Something all liberal pieces of shit need. Fuck off and die you fucking cunt!


Now you argue with this guy. I leave you to it.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 10 September 2008 07:29 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we're presuming there are people existing between the two extremes of "us" and "them", otherwise why bother talking about these things at all? Let "us" be us and "them" be them and never the twain shall meet.

The only motive for trying to expose "them" is the existence of people who are to some extent open to "their" message, but still not impervious to reason. You won't reach these people by insulting them.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 10 September 2008 07:32 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by remind:

What I found really offensive was having a Stephen Harper picture up, with his thumb up, on the rabble main page. Though one could choose to take it as his giving approval for Mallick's words, I suppose.



Here's a better picture of our Steve, remind. No thumbs.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8312

posted 10 September 2008 07:33 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?

No. The left can't succeed 'cause its far to busy developing a clique of puritans who one day will lead absolutely no one to the land of anti-septic sterility.

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 10 September 2008 07:33 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And if we don't like Palin's female supporters, we'll just call them all a bunch of stupid cunts. That's okay, right?

On reflection, I'd have a lot less difficulty than you'd think.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 10 September 2008 07:34 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?

It has nothing to do with the guy who sent you that e-mail. The left doesn't succeed in Canada because powerful, wealthy, corrupt interests are aligned against us. They have no culture besides a culture of greed and privilege, but they do use cultural differences to drive wedges between people who should have common interests against them. You do their work for them when you smear people with broad brushes.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 10 September 2008 07:38 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:

It has nothing to do with the guy who sent you that e-mail. The left doesn't succeed in Canada because powerful, wealthy, corrupt interests are aligned against us. They have no culture besides a culture of greed and privilege, but they do use cultural differences to drive wedges between people who should have common interests against them. You do their work for them when you smear people with broad brushes.


Oh, come on! The quibble factor has something to do with it. We're all so busy parsing the language that the elephants in the room often don't get dealt with.

Sometimes strong language is the most appropriate, effective and conveys the best meaning.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Timebandit ]


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 07:43 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.
[END QUOTE]
-------------------------------------
I just said you should read Bageant for a more nuanced description of the folks voting for Palin in Heartland.

Otherwise, I love you still. Always have. Always will.


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
jester
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11798

posted 10 September 2008 07:46 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeatherM:
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.

djs5776@sbcglobal.net
Message: So you don\'t like Sarah Palin you ugly slut? Fuck you, you liberal piece of shit. I\'ll bet your cunt smells like rotten meat. You are one ugly cunt. I\'d love to punch you right in your chops and knock every tooth out of your head. Come see me bitch! I have something for you. Something all liberal pieces of shit need. Fuck off and die you fucking cunt!


Now you argue with this guy. I leave you to it.


Why not just have your husband delete it unread rather than revel in it?

You make a good living with your schtick, much like Anne Coulter and Mark Steyn so,the level of vituperative emails is a measure of your success.


From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 September 2008 07:52 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeatherM:
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred,

That's a bit melodramatic, don't you think, Heather? I didn't see anyone here call you a nasty piece of work or say they hated you, except for one newbie troll that I banned for being such a misogynist pig.

quote:
here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans.

djs5776@sbcglobal.net
Message: So you don\'t like Sarah Palin you ugly slut? Fuck you, you liberal piece of shit. I\'ll bet your cunt smells like rotten meat. You are one ugly cunt. I\'d love to punch you right in your chops and knock every tooth out of your head. Come see me bitch! I have something for you. Something all liberal pieces of shit need. Fuck off and die you fucking cunt!

Now you argue with this guy. I leave you to it.


Why would we want to do that? I wouldn't engage someone like that at all. Clearly there's nothing to say to someone like that, you just stay the hell away from them.

I'm sorry, but words matter. Excluding language matters. Maybe not to people who aren't being excluded by it. They have the luxury of rolling their eyes and calling it "political correctness" when they are called on using excluding language. Because it doesn't affect them. It doesn't dehumanize them.

I'm sorry you have received hate mail. I know how it feels, having received some of it myself through my work here on babble. People have called me horrible things, both here and throughout my life at various times, but that doesn't give me a free pass to call working class or poverty-class and undereducated people "white trash".

Does this make me the reason the left never goes anywhere? Well, sorry, but "left" to me doesn't mean dehumanizing the already marginalized.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2092

posted 10 September 2008 07:57 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh, come on! The quibble factor has something to do with it. We're all so busy parsing the language that the elephants in the room often don't get dealt with.

Sometimes strong language is the most appropriate, effective and conveys the best meaning.


I agree, but strong language doesn't have to feed into stereotypes or alienate the very people we're hoping to reach. It's satisfying when we're talking amongst ourselves, but if we're really trying to change minds, I don't believe it gets the job done.


From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 10 September 2008 08:02 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I think we're presuming there are people existing between the two extremes of "us" and "them", otherwise why bother talking about these things at all? Let "us" be us and "them" be them and never the twain shall meet.

The only motive for trying to expose "them" is the existence of people who are to some extent open to "their" message, but still not impervious to reason. You won't reach these people by insulting them.


Exactly so does it not make sense to expose Palin and her base for the corrupt dangerous fascists that they are intent on brutal foreign occupation, violation of human rights and torture as well as a continued assault on marginalized and impoverished communities domestically or do we go along with the image of Palin as a plucky hockey mom.

There are those that know Palin as she is and adore her for it and there are those who are buying into the soft pedalled image. I think it makes sense to make the latter group more aware of the reality.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: N.R.KISSED ]


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 08:11 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]
There are those that know Palin as she is and adore her for it and there are those who are buying into the soft pedalled image. I think it makes sense to make the latter group more aware of the reality.
[END QUOTE]

----------------------------------------

By doing what. Telling them about a world with which you are familiar?

Well, come to think of it, that's what Bageant says is "the liberal way."

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 10 September 2008 08:16 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:

Why not just have your husband delete it unread rather than revel in it?

You make a good living with your schtick, much like Anne Coulter and Mark Steyn so,the level of vituperative emails is a measure of your success.


Where do you get the sense of reveling?

Honestly, I think this is uncalled for and just plain nasty -- I've been reading Heather M's columns for years and I've never seen anything even approaching the provocateur poses that Coulter and Steyn use. I think the comparison is way out of line.

As is to say, that such a malicious response represents success. That's just creepy.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Timebandit
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1448

posted 10 September 2008 08:19 PM      Profile for Timebandit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:

I agree, but strong language doesn't have to feed into stereotypes or alienate the very people we're hoping to reach. It's satisfying when we're talking amongst ourselves, but if we're really trying to change minds, I don't believe it gets the job done.


Then we have to question whether that is, in fact, the job or the intent of the writer.

Frankly, what you're suggesting is a Sisyphian task. You can't reach people who have no interest in being reached.


From: Urban prairie. | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355

posted 10 September 2008 08:24 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
There are those that know Palin as she is and adore her for it and there are those who are buying into the soft pedalled image. I think it makes sense to make the latter group more aware of the reality.

It does make sense but not by calling people stupid useless, ignorant schmucks in the process. For one it doesn't work. I means I know that whenever someone tries to explain my wrongness of thinking by referring to me as a elitist, commie pinko, over-educated asswipe doesn't exactly make me to open to what they're saying.
Plus it totally CONFIRMS the narrative thats been cleverly set up between the 'elites and everyone else'.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 08:25 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong:
[QUOTE]
Ok, after skimming through that thread I have to apologise to Farmpunk.

I agree with some of what he said over there, although I disagree with his generalisation of babblers as being fans of "academic" writing. I have three degrees, and I detest that pompous fluff.

This is dead-on, though:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The strongest parts of the book are when Bageant writes about the dissconnection between the people who live in small town America and the political class\elites and the economic reality of smaller town life. It reminded me of how some babblers, myself included, have written about how and why the NDP has little rural Canadian presence.
[END QUOTE]

-------

You should try to absorb the whole enchilada, al.

The kerfuffle that took place a few minutes ago is a wonderful demonstration of why, as people keep saying, "words matter", but they have to involve more than bits picked out of space because they look good, or somehow resonate with earlier accepted orthodoxy.

I found farmpunk's prediction about babblers' relectance to wrestle with those awful concepts beyond amazing. Why is it assumed that coming to understand how other people live and think we are going to be contaminated?


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
RevolutionPlease
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14629

posted 10 September 2008 08:30 PM      Profile for RevolutionPlease     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I'm sorry, but words matter. Excluding language matters. Maybe not to people who aren't being excluded by it. They have the luxury of rolling their eyes and calling it "political correctness" when they are called on using excluding language. Because it doesn't affect them. It doesn't dehumanize them.

...that doesn't give me a free pass to call working class or poverty-class and undereducated people "white trash".

Does this make me the reason the left never goes anywhere? Well, sorry, but "left" to me doesn't mean dehumanizing the already marginalized.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: Michelle ]



I normally enjoy Heather's work, please just take it as constructive criticism HM.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: RevolutionPlease ]

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: RevolutionPlease ]


From: Aurora | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 September 2008 08:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So do I!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 08:39 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
Jester:

[QUOTE]
Why not just have your husband delete it unread rather than revel in it?

You make a good living with your schtick, much like Anne Coulter and Mark Steyn so,the level of vituperative emails is a measure of your success.
[END QUOTE]

------------------------------------------


You are obviously not a regular reader of Heather's. She writes with a sensitivity that I find in few others - albeit sometimes using language that few would dare.

Your suggestion, jester, that she "revels" in such drool, is itself something beneath contempt, an embarrassment to this board, and warrants your expulsion.


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 10 September 2008 08:45 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Why not just have your husband delete it unread rather than revel in it?

You make a good living with your schtick, much like Anne Coulter and Mark Steyn so,the level of vituperative emails is a measure of your success.


a) It's offensive for you to say that Heather is "much like Anne Coulter". It's a personal attack and not allowed here.

b) It's beyond offensive for you to imply that Heather somehow deserves to receive abusive and threatening hate mail because of what she writes, or to tell her that she "revels" in it.

Take a week off.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355

posted 10 September 2008 08:48 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

By doing what. Telling them about a world with which you are familiar?


George thank you. I've been struggling trying to put something to words which is still a bit airy in my mind but this makes it a bit more clear.
This is part of the problem in communicating.

I found this when I was searching around for USian reactions to this article. I found parts of it relevant.

Why are Repubicans so better at Being Nasty

quote:
Why are Republicans so much better at this game? (Maybe the Dems need to hire Michael Reynolds? They have, but not on a national scale.) Especially when Democrats pride themselves on being the party of smart people?

1) Wrong kind of smarts. Democrats don't have anything like the Republicans' grasp of people's basic emotions and the symbolism that connects to them. That feels insincere to people who have the luxury of dispassionate reasoning, and it is. But it works. Humans are symbolic animals. We don't perceive our own closest interests objectively. We perceive them through symbols that provoke strong, survival-level emotions. It takes a lot of education to deceive yourself that you've risen above that.

2) The Republicans always adopt the perspective of the underdog -- and not a long-suffering, help-needing underdog, but a proud and defiant one. Opposing that is a no-win proposition. Obama, too, knows the prejudices of his audience ("bitter . . . clinging to gus and religion"), but his audience is above looking down, not below looking up. So if he were to take a half-truth about Palin (her own biographical family dysfunction, e.g.) and combine it with the prejudices of his audience, he would come out basically calling Palin trailer trash, like Heather Mallick does. And boy, would that backfire.


[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: ElizaQ ]


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
George Victor
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 14683

posted 10 September 2008 08:50 PM      Profile for George Victor        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]

No. The left can't succeed 'cause its far to busy developing a clique of puritans who one day will lead absolutely no one to the land of anti-septic sterility.
[END QUOTE]

-----------------------------------------

In your familiar, trenchant style, FM, you may have touched on a reason for the tendency to endless consideration of diddly squat.

And avoidance of central questions like "Can James Lovelock's science be trusted?"

But enough for tonight. I'm quite crestfallen, and just doing a late night ramble because I don't think I could sleep, anyhoo.

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: George Victor ]


From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 10 September 2008 09:09 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by HeatherM:
Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans. . .

You must forgive them, Heather. Remind yourself that these people, and they are people, have been bred and led to think in the narrowest of terms possible. Republican policies have dumbed-down those living in the deep south and old Republican strongholds(at one time, ultra-conservative Democrat strongholds). Former William F. Buckley protege, Michael Lind(Texas), said that intellectual conservatives realized that the right in the U.S. were only united as long as there existed a common foe, namely the New Deal socialism in their country since the collapse of laissez-failure capitalism, and the red menace. Other than surrounding the wagons for those two causes, the right is basically a group of disunited and fractious religious extremists and rich people who don't want to pay their taxes while actually enjoying the protections, private property laws, and freedoms provided them by the state.

For lack of a proper instruction manual on political conservatism, right-rightist intellectuals like Buckley wrote odes to political conservatism essentially resembling Marx's manifesto in concept and rough outline except aiming in the other direction. Lind said U.S. conservatism was born of the deep south, and it was originally based on religious revivalism and racism. And it still is.

I think "white trash" was a low blow, but it certainly would have been taken within context by those people you've been squabbling with, imo.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 10 September 2008 09:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Timebandit:

On reflection, I'd have a lot less difficulty than you'd think.



I'm still laughing, and I've read every post since this.


quote:
No. The left can't succeed 'cause its far to busy developing a clique of puritans who one day will lead absolutely no one to the land of anti-septic sterility.

My only quibble with this statement is that these sanctimonious parsons (or is that parsimonious sanctons?) are trying to lead us to this sterile land right here, right now.

quote:
That was the problem with the incessant "Bush is a moron" stuff that ran throughout the last eight years. True or not, it was calling all his supporters morons too and only served to make them defensive and less open to the message of how bad his presidency is.

Oh yeah? They called us morans first!


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.R.KISSED
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1258

posted 10 September 2008 09:28 PM      Profile for N.R.KISSED     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It does make sense but not by calling people stupid useless, ignorant schmucks in the process. For one it doesn't work. I means I know that whenever someone tries to explain my wrongness of thinking by referring to me as a elitist, commie pinko, over-educated asswipe doesn't exactly make me to open to what they're saying.
Plus it totally CONFIRMS the narrative thats been cleverly set up between the 'elites and everyone else'.

Heather did not call people "stupid, useless..."

She did say that Palin and her base are

quote:
is rural, loud, proudly unlettered (like Bush himself), suspicious of the urban, frankly disbelieving of the foreign, and a fan of the American cliché of authenticity.

Frankly I think she's being gracious in her description. The point I'm making is your unlikely to win over her base but by exposing them for who they are you would encourage others not to be associated with them. Of course the true corporate elite probably have even more contempt for this group but will always depend on their support.

Heather actually had the courage to expose Palin and her ilk for what they are and she is now suffering the consequences in the form of death threats. You might think she would deserve some credit and support for that.


From: Republic of Parkdale | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355

posted 10 September 2008 09:47 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.R.KISSED:
[QB]
Heather did not call people "stupid, useless..."

She did say that Palin and her base are


Sorry I apologize for not making it clearer it's late. I wasn't suggesting that she did. I was responding to the more generalized discussion about talking about the more generalized 'them.' The ones you refer to convincing to disassociate with.


quote:

Frankly I think she's being gracious in her description. The point I'm making is your unlikely to win over her base but by exposing them for who they are you would encourage others not to be associated with them. Of course the true corporate elite probably have even more contempt for this group but will always depend on their support.

And I was agreeing with your point. I just don't think that exposing them this way is always going to resonate and come off the way you would expect. It may to us, because we 'get it', I get it. There are people that totally 'get it.' The question is whether the ones you want to 'get it' will or look at it as something else.

quote:

Heather actually had the courage to expose Palin and her ilk for what they are and she is now suffering the consequences in the form of death threats. You might think she would deserve some credit and support for that.


And that is deplorable. I do give her credit. Regardless of ones speech it doesn't deserve that sort of base reaction.

From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
martin dufresne
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11463

posted 10 September 2008 09:58 PM      Profile for martin dufresne   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Suspicion about 'getting it': Could it be that we of the intellectual, educated, relatively well-off Left are starting to "lose it" at seeing the Republicans and the Conservatives with good chances of being relelected despite some of the most reactionary, destructive politics ever? Are we turning against the people that our narative says we are supposed to be helping because it doesn't seem to work, i.e. the moderate Right not regularly replacing the not so moderate one? Do we merely see the problem as their resisting our perspective, enlightened as it is supposed to be? What else could we understand about the situation and are *we* resisting?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


From: "Words Matter" (Mackinnon) | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ElizaQ
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9355

posted 10 September 2008 10:05 PM      Profile for ElizaQ     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Suspicion about 'getting it': Could it be that we of the intellectual, educated, relatively well-off Left are starting to "lose it" at seeing the Republicans and the Conservatives with good chances of being relelected despite some of the most reactionary, destructive politics ever? Are we turning against the people that our narative says we are supposed to be helping because it doesn't seem to work, i.e. the moderate Right not regularly replacing the not so moderate one? Do we merely see the problem as their resisting our perspective, enlightened as it is supposed to be? What else could we understand about the situation and are *we* resisting?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]


Martin I do want to comment on this and will but the brain is a bit muddled and I need to refresh it.


From: Eastern Lakes | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 September 2008 10:23 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by martin dufresne:
Suspicion about 'getting it': Could it be that we of the intellectual, educated, relatively well-off Left are starting to "lose it" at seeing the Republicans and the Conservatives with good chances of being relelected despite some of the most reactionary, destructive politics ever? Are we turning against the people that our narative says we are supposed to be helping because it doesn't seem to work, i.e. the moderate Right not regularly replacing the not so moderate one? Do we merely see the problem as their resisting our perspective, enlightened as it is supposed to be? What else could we understand about the situation and are *we* resisting?

[ 10 September 2008: Message edited by: martin dufresne ]



For cryin' out loud, man. Read this post over again a few times, then smack yourself in the head. 'Round these parts, you are "Exhibit A" in the problem you have identified..


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ktown
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 11 September 2008 12:02 AM      Profile for Ktown     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
HeatherM
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9829
posted 10 September 2008 07:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ever wonder why the left never succeeds in Canada?
While you are all debating small delicate things about whether I am a nasty piece of work and should I receive your guarded approval or limited hatred, here's what I'm up against, out of hundreds of racist, women-hating, sick emails I received today on my website, admittedly almost entirely from Americans
TERRIBLE IGNORANT THINGS ARE SAID HERE

Now you argue with this guy. I leave you to it."

I am a Canadian who is very disappointed with your recent articles regarding the upcoming American ELection. Please do not ever pretend that I need the likes of you to determine what I can and can not look at, AVERT YOUR EYES ARTICLE, and never, think that you speak for me.


From: Canada | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged
bigcitygal
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posted 11 September 2008 03:27 AM      Profile for bigcitygal     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread.
From: It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent - Q | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged

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