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Author Topic: Trouble on the right as Toryism unravels
Sharon
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posted 23 January 2004 12:24 PM      Profile for Sharon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
What's a “conservative?” Is it the same as a right-winger? What about “Tory?” Can we apply that name to this new Alliance-Conservative concoction? I don't feel right about it myself — Stephen Harper is no Tory — and I'm peeved at the loss of this grand old expression, not to mention the loss of the thing itself which in its original form consisted of a certain grumpy but dignified resistance to change, now transformed into a sort of foghorn for greed and corporate domination.

Full story


From: Halifax, Nova Scotia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 January 2004 01:40 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Moderate consevatism is not dead.

http://www.redtory.ca/


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 23 January 2004 03:41 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
No, but it's on life support at the Extendicare.

Remember the slur 'Gray Tories'?

The irony is that a classical conservative party would actually offer something different than the Libs, who have become a party of the neocons for all intents and purposes.


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zharathustra
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posted 23 January 2004 05:49 PM      Profile for Zharathustra     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
People have seen socialism destory all countries that try it yes even Sweden Libertarianism is on the rise. I guess the socialist dont want all people to have equal. nomatter what creed religion race sex, sexuality, etc. A true libertarian is the most free thinking person out there. A liberal will try to control peoples thoughts and actions.
From: Calgary | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 23 January 2004 06:08 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Heh. In case you didn't notice Zara, nobody is talking about socialism.

Nice job of kneejerking though.

[ 23 January 2004: Message edited by: arborman ]


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 23 January 2004 06:32 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
That's "Zhara". Yes, in Sweden, libertarianism is now at almost 1% in the polls, so "Zhara" is right! It is increasing from eight tenths of a percent last year.

But if "Zhara" is a libertarian, why so much concern about Ernst Zundel, and not other people detained under Security Certificates? (see Zundel thread). Let's hear something about the people at Guantanamo Bay, ok? Or is this a selective libertarianism?


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 23 January 2004 06:50 PM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:

Remember the slur 'Gray Tories'?

As far as I know, gray tory only applies to Joe Clark, Sinclair Stevens, and all those other old PCs who resent any departure from their exact vision of the PC party.

Red Tories who have chosen to stay in the party or leave for reasons other than resentment of having to give up their backroom-boys power. For example: Scott Brison, although I find his motive for joining the Liberal party to be utterly selfish, it does not make him a grey tory like Joe Clark or even David Orchard.

quote:
The irony is that a classical conservative party would actually offer something different than the Libs, who have become a party of the neocons for all intents and purposes.[/QB]

The Martin Liberals have definatley moved right ideologically. That does not mean that they have magically become absolved of corruption and scandal. I rather like what Martin says, but the Liberals have a reputation for doing the opposite of what they say. Therefore, I don't trust Martin any farther than I can throw an elephant. Mind you, with a Conservative leader such as Harper, Clement, and possibly Stronach (still don't know much about her), the party would become more WYSIWYG than the "right-wing Liberals" will ever be.


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
arborman
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posted 23 January 2004 06:58 PM      Profile for arborman     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
So the difference now is corruption and scandal? I know you are involved in the CCP Gir, but most of us have absolutely zero illusions about the level of scandal and corruption that would ensue after a Conservative win.

Different scandals maybe, but any party that worships wealth that much is bound to end up having a few people get caught with hands in the cookie jar.

For comparisons I refer you to, well, every neocon government that has been elected in Canada so far.

I'm not saying the Libs are scandal free, far from it. But that is only the case because they have had the opportunity to get into scandals as a function of being in power. Put your lot in there and the same games would ensue.

By the way, don't bother responding to Zarathustra, he seems to be in the wrong thread. This one is about CONSERVATISM. He apparently thinks that any discussion of the political trends on the right is an endorsement of state socialism (in other words, he's an idiot).


From: I'm a solipsist - isn't everyone? | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 25 January 2004 11:22 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Sorry, Gir, but I see no evidence at that link that would prove moderate conservatism has not been assassinated by the radical right. None of the leading 'red tories' are associated with it (Clark, MacDonald, Orchard, etc.), nor are their values espoused.

Indeed, I see it as yet another attempt by the hard right to lay claim to moderation - as they radically alter the Canadian political landscape. And what better way to prevent the rise of a red tory alternative than to make certain you capture ownership of their 'brand'?

[ 25 January 2004: Message edited by: Lard tunderin' jeesus ]


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 25 January 2004 02:07 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I agree entirely with LTJ: what that site shows is that the term "red tory" has been assumed by people who are not red tories at all. I mean Chuck Strahl?

For me, the archetypical Red Tory was George Grant. There is absolutely nothing in common between him and the people on this site, who are maybe members of the moderate wing of the Reform Party. But the Reform Moderates would be in the centre of the old Progressive Conservatives, or even the near right.

Red Tories probably do gravitate to David Orchard, but I'm not sure what his plans are...probably NOT to join the new right wing group.


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Holy Holy Holy
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posted 25 January 2004 09:58 PM      Profile for Holy Holy Holy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I think most of "Red Toryism" is a fanciful myth.

First off, the only people in the Conservative party who support David Orchard are the people who followed him there. The same who would likely follow him to the Canadian Action Party should he decide to bolt there. They're part of a different (and equally long) Canadian political tradition. That of "the crank".

The second - and more pervasive - myth is that of the "Dalton Camp Tory". People like to believe that there is a deep and pervasive current within the old Tory party that yearns for larger government, social spending and collective endeavour. To which one can only say: "bullshit". In an era of rampant Keynesianism Conservatives expanded government because that was what business wanted. The post-war boom was fuelled by government largesse and the capitalist class was quite happy with the growing welfare state. Just as they had been quite happy - decades before - with John A's protectionism. Again, it was Good for Business.

People should remember that when the first rumblings against the welfare state burbled out of Bay Street and the 70s it was the Conservative party that heeded the call. Prime Minister Brian Mulroney led the charge and "Red Tories" like Dalton Camp were at their beck and call.

The fundamental split that I see within the Conservative party has nothing to do with the classic "Red Tory" issues but is a cultural split between homophobes, anglo, rednecks who don't care about anyone but themselves and hate government and gay-positive, urbanites, with sympathies for Quebec nationalists who don't care about anyone but themselves and hate government.

The only Tories who support the welfare state are in the Maritimes and Newfoundland where - again - it's good for business.


From: Holy | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 25 January 2004 11:39 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
While we're trying to find any remaining Red Tories, can anyone tell me if former Toronto councillor John Adams still answers to that tag?

He used to. From his biography you can see why:

quote:
Adams grew up in Toronto and graduated from York University in political science. He was the founding president of the university student council, founder of the first campus pub, and the first student representative on the academic senate. In his first job after university, he was a reporter for the Globe and Mail, covering city hall and education. He took a leave of absence from the Globe to work on the campaign of rookie Alderman David Crombie who led an urban renaissance as new mayor in 1972. He served as executive assistant to the Honourable Keith C. Norton, minister of community and social services under Premier William G. Davis. He worked on the reorganization of children’s services, community living for people with special needs, and the updating of provincial laws affecting social services to children, families and adults. Mr. Adams was a candidate in the 1981 provincial election before he worked as director of government relations for the Ontario Public School Boards Association where he specialized in capital and operating public finance issues. In nine years on city council, he fought to protect city ravines from development pressures, co-chaired city council’s steering committee on the Oak Ridge Moraine, served on the executive committee of the Toronto & Region Conservation Authority, and on the task force to bring back the Don. As chairman of the Toronto District Heating Corporation, he promoted district heating and cooling and helped fend off a backroom hostile takeover attempt by the Enron Corporation, and led the initial step to develop deep-lake water cooling as an alternative to electrical air conditioning.

The last of the Red Tories? Or has he given up too?

[ 25 January 2004: Message edited by: Wilfred Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
blue heron
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posted 28 January 2004 05:37 PM      Profile for blue heron        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
This discussion makes clear that the term "Tory" has no accepted definition anymore. Even when there was disagreement about the boundaries between Red and Gray and other shades of Conservatism, there was always a belief that "Tory" meant "Not Liberal".
From: Cambridge, ON | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 29 January 2004 04:00 AM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The confusion is yours, Blue Heron.

"Toryism" is our traditional British inheritance, a conservatism which would be embarrassed to be capitalized.
It is fiscally conservative, to be sure, but also conservative in terms of avoiding extremism in policy and opinion. And conservative in tradition, having the utmost respect for the history and institutions of the country.

All of which has little to do with yankee "Conservatism", which holds all government in contempt, and in the purest ideological terms is really Classic Liberalism (except for the utter confusion about the church and state thing).

Mike Harris and Ralph Klein were 'Conservatives' by your standards, but they were never really tories.


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
LukeVanc
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posted 29 January 2004 06:04 AM      Profile for LukeVanc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Very true, Holy.

quote:

Moderate consevatism is not dead.

http://www.redtory.ca/


So this website makes this a fact, Gir? What makes Scott Brison a Red Tory, anyway? Homosexuality?
This website is a publicity stunt. It is meant to a)reassure the media that the CPC is not a far right wing fringe movement b) reassure moderates in the party that the party still tolerates them, despite the numerous defections and c)create the image that the CPC is a big tent party.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 29 January 2004 03:46 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
From the RedTory.ca membership page:
quote:
The four initial Founding Members of the Red Tory Council are:
Rick Peterson – Vancouver – Chair
Serge Malaison – Montreal – Vice-Chair
Judith Seidman – Montreal – Vice-Chair
Larry Pomfret – Toronto – Vice-Chair
Glenn Solomon - Calgary - Vice-Chair

....should anyone be taking them seriously before they learn to count?


From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 29 January 2004 03:56 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
....and ya gotta love this kinda honesty:
quote:
I'm not a Red Tory at all, in fact I am more on the Canadian Alliance side of the conservative family. I feel though that you Red Tories are needed, more than welcome and intelligent people.

....not that he wouldn't want a few 'welcome and intelligent people' to stick around, too....

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 31 January 2004 10:52 AM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Any shot at resurrecting "Whig" to describe the Conservatives?

As far as their policies are concerned it's much more accurate, but that is just a minor detail.

The fact that they were opposing parties in the period when the basic tenets of the Conservatives were being constructed is just a bonus as far as describing the courage and honesty of that crowd is concerned.

The hard part is that exceedingly few people would have a clue of the history. Shall we start a campaign?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lard Tunderin' Jeezus
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posted 02 February 2004 11:54 PM      Profile for Lard Tunderin' Jeezus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Rather kind of these so-called 'Red Tories' to make room for Stephen Harper, since Harper himself wants to make A Home for Red Tories. But then again....
quote:
It is only by appealing to all conservatives that we can move forward together: appealing to economic conservatives, to social conservatives, to so-called Red Tories, and to democratic reformers.

For example – our party must and will deal with what the Fraser Institute and others have demonstrated beyond debate – Canada’s declining economic position in the world.

We must reduce our debt load. We will stand for free trade, private enterprise and limited government. And we simply have to get taxes down in this country.

We must also be a home for social conservatives. Not just those who worry about the social and moral dimension of issues from traditional Christian perspectives, but also to new Canadians from other religious traditions.

We will stand for the central importance of the family to our history and to our future. We will stand for lower taxes for families; for protecting children, fighting sexual exploitation and outlawing all child pornography. We will stand for a criminal justice system that puts victims and their property ahead of criminals.


....it sounds like he only has room for the 'so-called' kind of 'Red Tories' that have produced this bogus website, and not for any of the real red tories that might actually have a progressive bone somewhere in their bodies.

From: ... | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
larry-pomfret
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posted 12 March 2004 08:45 PM      Profile for larry-pomfret     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I just googled myself, and here I am in your discussion.

I'm a Vice-Chair of the Red Tory Council, and though we have trouble counting, we're neither a splinter group, nor some sort of ruse set up by the CPC. I joined because I want to ensure that centrist policy, specifically social policy, remain part of the conservative debate. Many people called me a Red Tory before I became comfortable with the moniker, and since I joined the RTC, several people have told me:

a) to join the liberal party
b) to form my own party
c) to join the "blue NDP council"
d) that I'm not really a Red Tory

I'll be sure to point out the mathematical error and get calculators for our entire group.

By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this string.


From: Barrie, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
thwap
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posted 13 March 2004 12:02 AM      Profile for thwap        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
"Conservatives" seem to be people who need a few more decades than anyone else to accept social-political-economic changes.

"Red Tories" seem to be those "conservatives" who happened to come of age when the welfare state had long established its legitimacy.

There was a "Tory touch" described by Gad Horowitz, of honest-to-goodness Tories willing to use the resources of the state to further economic development, and some of their descendents continued to support mobilizing the state for their own hierarchical notion of "the common good."

Also used to be that "liberals" were for small government, laisse-faire. Now "conservatives" are
"neo-liberals."


From: Hamilton | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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