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Author Topic: $25,000 and a car
Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 February 2006 10:36 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
A Pakistani cleric offered a 1.5 million rupee ($25,000 US) reward and a car to anyone who kills the cartoonist who drew Prophet Muhammad
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sven
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posted 17 February 2006 11:33 AM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Does this guy not realize that by making such a vile offer he just feeds the negative image of Muslims?
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Luka 19
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posted 17 February 2006 11:37 AM      Profile for Luka 19     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I'm not a Muslim, but I do need a new car. Would the offer still apply, if I offed the cartoonist?

And that 25G would handle the insurance and pay for a lot of gas.

How do I get in touch with this guy?


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 11:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't think this is an image thing, Sven.

I think he probably recognizes that this is more or less and open declaration of war. If you knew more about it, you would see how very serious this is indeed. For one thing I don't think that the modicum of stability that Musharaf has bludgeoned onto Pakistan will hold much longer.

Musharaf is not going to last 6 month. Oh well.


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caoimhin
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posted 17 February 2006 12:12 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
If you knew more about it,
Knew more about what?
quote:
how very serious this is indeed
What is serious?
quote:
he probably recognizes that this is more or less and open declaration of war
Who? And, do you agree this is an open declaration of war?

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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 12:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Invoking an religious edict against a non-Muslim.
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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 12:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
An opinion

quote:
Islam considers attacks against non-Muslims, who do not launch war against Muslims, as a form of injustice that is both prohibited and abhorred by the Qur’an, the Prophetic Sunnah and the noble teachings of the Prophet’s Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all.

Bali Attacks: Juristic Approach


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Sven
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posted 17 February 2006 12:46 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Islam considers attacks against non-Muslims, who do not launch war against Muslims, as a form of injustice that is both prohibited and abhorred by the Qur’an

If publishing a cartoon is "launching war" then pretty much everything that may offend Muslim sensibilities is fair game for death.


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 12:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
You know it would be kinda cool it you would not "politcize" evey statement I make, in order to make some grandiose point. I know what you think Sven. We have been over this repeatedly.

My point, which seems to have completely slipped by you, is that Imams making this kind of statements against non-Muslims is different than them making these kinds of declarations against Muslims. You see, there is a code, and a set of laws and traditions, and such, and I ma actually trying to devine what it means within Islamic jurisprudence when such a religious person makes such a pronoucement about someone whom is outside the Ummah.

Is it ever possible for you speak on this subject without moralizing? It is tiresome.


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 01:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

If publishing a cartoon is "launching war" then pretty much everything that may offend Muslim sensibilities is fair game for death.


You really do not get it do you. You eating pork, and doing all your infidel things is not something which is of interest to them, within Islamic jurisprudence, except when it directly interferes with their observance of their beliefs. It is well established in the Qu'ran that the infidel are governed by their own law, and that even when tried by Mohammed, Mohammed appeals to the Torah for the sentancing of Jews, not the Qu'ran. Do you get that?

Ok, so if you eat pork, or whatever, that is not an offence against the Qu'ran because you are not a Muslim. It might be weird and disgusting from their point of view and you might be going to hell for it, but you are going to hell anyway so what is the difference?

However, taking the image of Mohammed and defiling it is entirely different, because Mohammed is at the core of their beliefs, and directly scorns them.


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jester
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posted 17 February 2006 02:28 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It is well established in the Qu'ran that the infidel are governed by their own law, and that even when tried by Mohammed, Mohammed appeals to the Torah for the sentancing of Jews, not the Qu'ran. Do you get that?
[end quote]

Is that for all non-Muslims or only those that accept dhimmitude?

In my researching the US response to the Taliban,one fact was that the Americans take the reaction of the Pakistanis to cross-border incursions very seriously and make considerable effort to avoid any appearance of challenging the border.

The US is concerned that Musharrif's hold on power is tenuous.Very interesting that this reward originates in Pakistan.


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Transplant
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posted 17 February 2006 02:34 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
The US is concerned that Musharrif's hold on power is tenuous.Very interesting that this reward originates in Pakistan.

As did support for the Taliban from the Pakistani secret service.

As did much of the canon fodder US bombs fell on.


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retread
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posted 17 February 2006 03:06 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball has been consistently pointing out the various opinions among Muslims during this Danish cartoon episode, and the differences between their internal and external requirements ... I think you misread what he was saying.

Of course he's still wrong about the free speech aspect in other threads .


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jester
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posted 17 February 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
As did much of the canon fodder US bombs fell on.
[end quote]

Yes. Apparently the Taliban are doing most of their recruiting in the religious schools of Pakistan as well as the tribal areas along the border.

Why did this reward come from Pakistan? Why not Iran or Saudi Arabia? Or Indonesia?

I do not attribute this reward for murder to Muslims or Islam.It is another manifestation of fundamentalism at its worst.


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retread
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posted 17 February 2006 03:33 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
The bounty is up to a million now. I wonder how the legality of this goes ... could Bill Gates for instance publically offer a million dollar bounty on the head of some rival company as long as they lived in a different country?

I have to admit my gut reaction is that at this point every paper should start publishing the cartoons, just to make a point about intimidation. Might change my mind after thinking about it, but for now I think there's a really dangerous precedent getting underway.


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 03:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Just consider this Jester, when talking about Afghanistan and Pakistan. We know that Pakistan came into existance as an Islamic state, as part of partition from India in 1948. This partion was defined along religious lines, but not ethnic ones. It is the case that there is another devide in Pakistan, and that is between Pakistanis and Pashtu.

The Pashtu as you no doubt know are the majority people of Afghanistan. What you may not know is that in the creation of Pakistan the Pashtu population of Asia was cut in half, Half finding themselves in Pakistan, the other half in Afghanistan.

For many years the central government in Pakistan has got along by essentially ignoring the Pashtu population, and leaving the "tribes" to there own affairs. The Pakistani alliance with the Taliban, and the base for much of the operationa against the USSR came from the Pashtu region of Pakistan, and it is the case that the Pashtu don't really recognize the border, so you have a lot of cross migration as the Pashtu themselves see themselves as culturally and econmincally tied not so much with Pakistan but with their Pashtu relative in Afghanistan.

This fact bears heavily on the issue of the border.

Pashto Language & Identity Formation in Pakistan

quote:
Pashto, a language belonging to the Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family, has more than 25 million native speakers. Of these, 16 to 17 million live in Pakistan and 8 to 9 million in Afghanistan.[1] Pashto is the official language in Afghanistan, along with Dari (Afghan Persian), but in Pakistan it is not used in the domains of power--administration, military, judiciary, commerce, education and research--in any significant way. The activists of the Pashto language movement of Pakistan have been striving to increase the use of the language in these domains--i.e. for status planning or language allocation[2] in favour of Pashto since pre-partition days

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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jester
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posted 17 February 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I do not subscribe to insulting all Muslims in order to show defiance to the actions of the fundamentalist few.

Better to create dialogue and foster understanding of the issue with Muslims to marginalise the actions of extemists on both sides using this issue to furthur their agendas.


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Sven
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posted 17 February 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for Sven     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
However, taking the image of Mohammed and defiling it is entirely different, because Mohammed is at the core of their beliefs, and directly scorns them.

And, you’re willing to sacrifice free speech rights to protect Muslim sensibilities. I am not. I think we’re pretty clear about that from other threads, Cueball.


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jester
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posted 17 February 2006 03:51 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball: Thanks for the link. True,I did not know the Pashtuns were divided by the border although I did assume some form of commonality.

I had the privilege of a dialogue with an Islamic scholar some time ago,the upshot of which was that everything that I thought of Islam,including quotations from the Queran were misconceptions based on faulty (or perhaps artistic license) translations.


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Truly, I think the only thing that can be said that is universally applicable to all Muslims is that they base their beliefs on the Qu'ran. From there its anything goes really.
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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 04:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:

And, you’re willing to sacrifice free speech rights to protect Muslim sensibilities. I am not. I think we’re pretty clear about that from other threads, Cueball.


Why do you insist that any attempt to make a statement that describes the motive force of peoples feeling and ideas indicates support for that idea, or even any kind of moral judgement. I was simply trying to get at the underlying differences regarding Muslim sensibilities about Muslim observances, and our use of their sacred symbols as an object of fun.

Oh well.

I could say Muslims want to drive Mercedes cars and not Ford and you'd say I was attacking the principles of freedom of speech in the American constitution, because I hate America.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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jester
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posted 17 February 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Cueball:

Would it be correct to say that in the competition for government positions or,the salariat as Hamza Alavi calls it,the Pashtuns were more or less successful in the Pakistani security apparatus and thus explains Pakistani secret police support for the Taliban?

Islam is the state religion of Pakistan but is it also divided in its interpretation along Pashtun/Urdu ethnic lines?


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Transplant
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posted 17 February 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sven:
And, you’re willing to sacrifice free speech rights to protect Muslim sensibilities. I am not.

It's more than that:

Are you willing to use or excuse the use of that free speech to deliberately attack and enflame Muslim sensibilities?


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Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 04:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jester:
Cueball:

Would it be correct to say that in the competition for government positions or,the salariat as Hamza Alavi calls it,the Pashtuns were more or less successful in the Pakistani security apparatus and thus explains Pakistani secret police support for the Taliban?

Islam is the state religion of Pakistan but is it also divided in its interpretation along Pashtun/Urdu ethnic lines?


I wouldn't be suprised, but Islam is so amorphis. Actually Ghandi had an Afghan (Pashtu) pacifist counter part, who had some interesting and eclectic ideas about interpetting Islam, quite a bit different from the Taliban.

Too deep for me. Besides I have to go. There is a good book on the Taliban that came out just before 9/11 called; Taliban. can't remember the authors name. Another guy who has done some good work on this area is Eric Margolis.

Nice chatting.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 17 February 2006 04:20 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Maybe it's time to take a page from the "I am Spartacus" playbook.

If there's a million dollar bounty on some guy's head for drawing a cartoon, maybe we need a few hundred more of those cartoons. Where would the money come from to reward murdering them all? Who'd have the time and energy to go hunting down hundreds of cartoonists?

As the cliche goes: sure, it's a crazy idea. Just crazy enough to work.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 February 2006 04:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan

quote:
Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (b. at Hashtnagar in Utmanzai, Peshawar, North-West Frontier Province, India, 1890; d. in Peshawar, NWFP, Pakistan, 20 January 1988) was a Pashtun (Afghan) political and spiritual leader known for his non-violent opposition to British rule during the final years of the Empire on the Indian sub-continent. He was a lifelong pacifist and a devout Muslim. He was known as Badshah Khan (sometimes written as Bacha Khan), the `Khan of Khans', and `Frontier Gandhi'.



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Cartman
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posted 17 February 2006 05:25 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Muslims praise Canada for non-violent response to cartoons.
quote:
The group says the Canadian response was unique in that it struck a balance between freedom of expression and protecting people from hate and racism.

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michael Watkins
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posted 17 February 2006 05:52 PM      Profile for Michael Watkins   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Is it a hybrid car?
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Boom Boom
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posted 17 February 2006 05:59 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If it's a Ferrari GTO, I imagine someone would think about it. That's a million dollar car nowadays. I think it's horrendous and how far beyond common sense this whole matter has gone. Absoultely ridiculous.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
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posted 17 February 2006 06:51 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
If it's a Ferrari GTO, I imagine someone would think about it. That's a million dollar car nowadays. I think it's horrendous and how far beyond common sense this whole matter has gone. Absoultely ridiculous.

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: Boom Boom ]


I don't think this cleric guy realises he is potentially on the hook for $12M and 12 new cars ,as there were twelve cartoonists. Come to think of it one of the cartoons didn't featurt an image of Muhammed himself so we are down to $11M. $10M if we don't count stick men.


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Diane Demorney
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posted 17 February 2006 06:53 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I don't know about the rest of you, but if I were to take up the bounty challenge, I would insist upon an escrow account. Not that this particular Pakistani cleric's word is no good... I'm just sayin'
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Cartman
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posted 17 February 2006 06:59 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
and then there is shipment and taxes and the inspection. Muslim clerics just don't make this death threat, killing thing very convenient now do they?
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retread
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posted 17 February 2006 07:16 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I wonder how easy it would be to sue the cleric for non-payment if you murdered one of the cartoonists ... though I guess there's a separation between criminal and civil courts
From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Diane Demorney
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posted 17 February 2006 07:20 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by retread:
I wonder how easy it would be to sue the cleric for non-payment if you murdered one of the cartoonists ... though I guess there's a separation between criminal and civil courts

That's why you insist upon an escrow account. No pay, no play etc.

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Diane Demorney
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posted 17 February 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
and then there is shipment and taxes and the inspection. Muslim clerics just don't make this death threat, killing thing very convenient now do they?

Well, you could set up one of those numbered accounts in the Caymans... You don't HAVE to have everything shipped to Calgary, you know.

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Jooge
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posted 17 February 2006 07:39 PM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Socialist:

That's why you insist upon an escrow account. No pay, no play etc.

But who would be your third party holder....?


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Diane Demorney
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posted 17 February 2006 08:17 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jooge:
But who would be your third party holder....?
I've heard PayPal is quite good.


From: Calgary | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 17 February 2006 08:28 PM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
Gee, wasn't it the US administration who opined on the 'one bullet solution' to Iraq's problems? didn't tye also offer money for the dead or alive rendering of certain Iraqi's?

I suspect the imam got his idea from listening to the US administration.


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retread
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posted 17 February 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
If you mean the playing cards, they were criticised pretty heavily for it. But since the cartoonist is Dutch, I'm not sure what the price on their heads have to do with the Americans.
From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Diane Demorney
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posted 17 February 2006 08:49 PM      Profile for Diane Demorney   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by retread:
If you mean the playing cards, they were criticised pretty heavily for it. But since the cartoonist is Dutch, I'm not sure what the price on their heads have to do with the Americans.

Now I'm confused. Weren't the original cartoonists Danish? Or are all Europeans the same. Stop generalizing!

I refuse to take any personal responsibility for anything else I post this evening. I've decided to drink... and heavily. Hey! If that excuse is good enough for the VP of the U.S. of A. then it's good enough for me.


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Cartman
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posted 17 February 2006 09:35 PM      Profile for Cartman        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
I refuse to take any personal responsibility for anything else I post this evening. I've decided to drink... and heavily. Hey! If that excuse is good enough for the VP of the U.S. of A. then it's good enough for me.
The old "I'm liquored up and babbling" excuse huh? Works for me.

From: Bring back Audra!!!!! | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 17 February 2006 10:55 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Cleric offers $25,000 and a . . . new car!!!
Who is this cleric? Muhammad al-Bob Barker?

From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
jester
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posted 17 February 2006 10:59 PM      Profile for jester        Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
I suppose American cars are not included?
From: Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 17 February 2006 11:13 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
It's being offered by a Pakistani cleric, so the car likely is one of these:
Adam Revo Made in Pakistan

From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 17 February 2006 11:44 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Canadian Socialist:
Now I'm confused. Weren't the original cartoonists Danish? Or are all Europeans the same. Stop generalizing!

Danish, Dutch, whateva!

Time for a beer. Just stay away from shotguns there, CS.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
maestro
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posted 18 February 2006 12:26 AM      Profile for maestro     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
03 Jul 2003, 15:15 UTC

The U.S. government is offering a $25 million reward for the capture of Saddam Hussein or confirmation of his death. The top U.S. administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer, said the offer also includes an additional $15 million for each of Saddam's two fugitive sons, Uday and Qusay.


So the 25 grand for the cartoonist(s) is strictly chicken feed.

The US was offering US$55 million...

Added after a short search.

It was Ari Fleischer, official Whitehouse spokeperson who offered assassination as the 'solution' to Saddam Hussein even before the monetary offer (sometime in '02).

quote:
Ari Fleischer said the following when asked about cheaper alternatives to war with Iraq:

"The cost of one bullet, if the Iraqi people take it on themselves, is substantially less than (war)."


[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: maestro ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jooge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10480

posted 18 February 2006 12:55 AM      Profile for Jooge     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post  Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maestro:

So the 25 grand for the cartoonist(s) is strictly chicken feed.

The US was offering US$55 million...

Added after a short search.

It was Ari Fleischer, official Whitehouse spokeperson who offered assassination as the 'solution' to Saddam Hussein even before the monetary offer (sometime in '02).
[ 18 February 2006: Message edited by: maestro ]


Lighten up man! We're chilin'.......


From: The Land of Opportunity | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged

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