babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Zionist howler of the week

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Zionist howler of the week
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2006 07:51 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
From Canadian Jewish News:
quote:

Israel has always said that as a democratic, multicultural nation, it does not produce refugees

So what should we call the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who were forced out of their homes and villages? Tourists?

Acceptance rate for Israeli refugee claimants spikes in '05


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 April 2006 08:50 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow; that's some statement.

I suppose the sentiment behind it explains a lot of the nonsense we read on babble though.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4668

posted 06 April 2006 10:01 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I found this rather interesting:
quote:

The IRB does not track the reasons, whether political, religious or personal, for granting asylum. Neither does it keep records of the birthplace of claimants.

But Israel has long maintained that for the most part, they are Jews who left former Soviet republics and came to Israel under the Law of Return, which grants them immediate citizenship.



So, we have only Israel's word, which the IRB can neither confirm nor deny, that they're bogus asylum seekers using Israel as a springboard into Canada, and not, say, Israeli Arabs...

From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 06 April 2006 10:18 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I believe they are mostly emigres from the former Soviet Union.

The real problem is this - in the late 1980s Israel and Zionist groups in North America actually lobbied the US and Canadian governments to stop recognizing Jews who wanted to leave the (former) Soviet Union as refugees. Why? Becuase they can go to Israel (and so they would go to Israel and act as a counterweight against the growing Palestinian population.)

So for Israel to now complain that ex-Soviet Jews are using Israel as a launching pad to get to the West is completely hypocritical as the reason they were not able to go directly to the West in the first place was because Israel and its supporters worked to deny them refugee status! (If you remember the demand for "direct flights to Tel Aviv" from Moscow, the reason for this was because when flights were stopping in Europe first, many Soviet Jews got off and asked for refugee status rather than complete the trip to Israel.

An outrageous example of how Israel puts its own interests above that of Jewish communities.

Until Israel got Canada and the US to change the rules, the vast majority of Jews leaving the Soviet Union in the 80s (once the doors opened) went to the West.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 06 April 2006 11:37 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to mention their dirty tactics in the earlier history of Zionism. Buring ww2 Vladimir Jabotinsky and his ilk even attempted to lobby Poland to expel its Jews, so that he could shunt the flow of refugees...where else?

Jewish state indeed.


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 07 April 2006 07:49 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Let me understand Serendipity, are you saying that Jabotinsky ought not have tried to save Poland's Jews from the gas chambers? I am a bit confused here.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 01:29 AM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all, he didn't know about the gas chambers in 1936, ohara, because the Final Solution wasn't even on the drawing board yet. Eichmann was still a nobody in the rank and file of Nazi Party.
Did you know that the year after, the Nazi's sent Eichmann to go survey Palestine as a possible dumping ground for all of Germany's Jews? He and Jabotinsky could have been the best of friends! But no, at that point Jabotinsky was ahead of the game. The Germans hadn't even gotten to Poland yet, let alone had a cogent plan to expell the Polish Jews at the time that Jabotinsky was lobbying for it.

Read one of his many biographies sometime. He relished the thought of any anti-semitic activity in Poland because that meant greater numbers of aliyot.

He didn't care about the well-being of my ancestors or your ancestors, he didn't consider that maybe they WANTED to stay in Europe, like mine did, until they were forced out. There was only one thing that he cared about, and that was getting as many warm bodies to Palestine as he could.

Jewish state indeed.

[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 01:29 AM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 09 April 2006 02:15 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Let me understand Serendipity, are you saying that Jabotinsky ought not have tried to save Poland's Jews from the gas chambers? I am a bit confused here.

This hamfisted smear attempt is not one of your better pieces of work, ohara.

Then again I do not expect such finely-nuanced work from Your Obtuseness.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 April 2006 04:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Serendipity:
First of all, he didn't know about the gas chambers in 1936, ohara, because the Final Solution wasn't even on the drawing board yet. Eichmann was still a nobody in the rank and file of Nazi Party.
[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]

Didn't Poland extinguish the citizenship rights of Polish expatriate Jews living in Germany in 1936?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 09 April 2006 11:59 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

This hamfisted smear attempt is not one of your better pieces of work, ohara.

Then again I do not expect such finely-nuanced work from Your Obtuseness.


Flame is thy middle name.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6640

posted 09 April 2006 12:15 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ohara, to get back on topic, what do you think of the quotation from the Canadian Jewish News regarding Israel and refugees?
From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 April 2006 12:42 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, Mycroft. Everyone else: I would appreciate it if you would stay on topic and leave off the flaming.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 09 April 2006 02:10 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think someone just implied that someone else was a Holocaust supporter ... a warning to stop flaming doesn't seem appropriate.

And sorry for going off topic, especially after your warning ... but it needed to be said.

[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: No Yards ]


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
deBeauxOs
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10099

posted 09 April 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for deBeauxOs     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted by No Yards: I think someone just implied that someone else was a Holocaust supporter ...
It could be understood that way and that may have been the intent of the comment, but I agree that it is preferable to let it pass, since the object of the remark defended their POV admirably.

From: missing in action | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Didn't Poland extinguish the citizenship rights of Polish expatriate Jews living in Germany in 1936?

Would be interesting to find out. I know that the first wave of deportation from Poland was to the USSR, and that was in '39, but by then the orders were probably coming from Germany anyway. I know my grandfather's papers identified him as Jewish, and he was allowed to remain a Polish citizen during those years, hell, they drafted him, like thousands of other Jews. After Poland lost he was drafted by the Soviet Army, and became sort of stateless alien from that point on.


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11323

posted 09 April 2006 03:11 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Serendipity:

I know my grandfather's papers identified him as Jewish, and he was allowed to remain a Polish citizen during those years, hell, they drafted him, like thousands of other Jews. After Poland lost he was drafted by the Soviet Army, and became sort of stateless alien from that point on.


That's almost exactly my father's story. Although a Polish citizen, he was never in the Polish Army (one of my mother's brothers was when the Nazis invaded in September 1939), but my father was drafted into the Red Army shortly after Operation Barbarossa (June 22, 1941) as part of the Soviet retreat. When he was demobilized in late 1945, however, he returned to Poland and retained his Polish citizenship, though perhaps (who knows) he had to get new papers, given the various regime changes. I know when they came to Canada, my parents were both Polish citizens.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 03:16 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The CJN article is very confusing.
If Israel wants its refugees back, why doesn't it let in any of the 700,000+ refugees they kicked out in '48. Or their descendants?

Some of these people still hold a claim to a particular place, a neighbourhood, or even a particular address. When I went to the West Bank I saw that some of them still had deeds and leases!

For a Canadian it can be thought of like this:
Imagine if there was a Native somewhere who held the deed to your house? What if that person was living in poverty, maybe only a few dozen kilometers away? Maybe less? How could you keep on living there?


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 April 2006 03:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did you read "Without Vodka," by Aleksander Topolski:

quote:
The story begins in 1939 when Topolski was 16 years old and living in Poland. The Germans had just overran most of Poland but, in the eastern part of the country where Topolski's family lived, the Soviets had invaded.

Fearing the Soviet soldiers, Topolski tried to flee to Romania. But he was captured by the Soviets and spent the next two years living in harsh Russian prisons and labour camps, constantly on the brink of starvation and surrounded by torture, death and privation.

His hardships continued even after being released from prison. He was forced to wander around the Soviet Union for several months, penniless and still starving, trying to hook up with the Polish army.

Finally, in 1942, he and a group of Polish soldiers left the Soviet Union for Iran and joined the allied military campaign in the Middle East and Italy.

Without Vodka is amazingly cheerful and upbeat despite the meticulously detailed descriptions of the death and destruction that accompanied Topolski's descent into the hell of the Soviet prison system.


Pttawa Citizen


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 03:20 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

That's almost exactly my father's story. Although a Polish citizen, he was never in the Polish Army (one of my mother's brothers was when the Nazis invaded in September 1939), but my father was drafted into the Red Army shortly after Operation Barbarossa (June 22, 1941) as part of the Soviet retreat. When he was demobilized in late 1945, however, he returned to Poland and retained his Polish citizenship, though perhaps (who knows) he had to get new papers, given the various regime changes. I know when they came to Canada, my parents were both Polish citizens.

Yes a lot of people still managed to hold on to their citizenship even after being absent for so long. My grandfather either lost his papers, was forgotten by Poland, or both. Still, with a big 'J' on them, that might not have been such a bad thing.


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball: Sounds like a good book.

I don't know who was unluckier, the Poles that they punished for being Poles, or the ones that they enlisted when they needed cannon fodder.

Stalin once said something like "In the Red Army it takes more courage to retreat than to advance."


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 April 2006 03:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is a great book. Revealing for one thing because it shows how the ideological constructs upon which Soviet communism was justified had agency in the construction and practices of the state. Upper class poles, whom made up the officer class were shot. Poor Poles, persons whom made up the rank and file of the army were put on trains, sent to work camps, youth detention centers and such.

They were not necessarily "class enemies." Certainly, one does not think that being incorporated into the Gulag system is a great thing, but it is certainly better than pushing up daisies at Katyn.

Topolski was even released to work in Russia. A hilarious sequence were he is hired to work in a power generating system, where it is assumed that because he is from the west he must be a competent Electrical Engineer, because he is not Russian and from the west.

Nonetheless, my point is more abstract than a simple moral deduction of what is right and wrong, and about how ideologies must no matter how twisted by realpolitik, at some point attempt to adhere to the underpinning idealism upon which a society justifies itself.

In this case working class Poles were treated substantially better than upper class Poles, evidently.

[ 09 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4169

posted 09 April 2006 03:37 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by deBeauxOs:
It could be understood that way and that may have been the intent of the comment, but I agree that it is preferable to let it pass, since the object of the remark defended their POV admirably.

Yeah, I suppose we should just let such implied vile accusation ride until such time as they are made against someone who can't defend themselves ... NOT!


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10327

posted 09 April 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm still waiting for her response to my question.

Ohara: What would you do if a refugee held the deed to your house?


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 09 April 2006 04:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

Yeah, I suppose we should just let such implied vile accusation ride until such time as they are made against someone who can't defend themselves ... NOT!


No Yards, no one implied that anyone is a Holocaust supporter. Give your head a shake.

Obviously this thread isn't going to continue on topic, despite several attempts by well-meaning contributors. So, yes, yet again, I'm closing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca