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Author Topic: Solutions for Israel-Palestine
Rgaiason
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posted 04 April 2006 03:22 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I've started this thread primarily so that Cueball can give me (us) the benefit of his detailed analysis of the correct solution to the Israel-Palestine problem(s), comfortably.

Robin Gaison


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 03:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinian Gandhi

quote:
"Where is the Palestinian Gandhi?" is a quite popular question, especially abroad. You won't often hear it asked (with the inevitable self-righteous shrug) here in Israel:]/b] after all, the Israeli culture itself worships violence, with the semantic field of "war" being the richest in the modern Hebrew language, with militarism as the state religion, and with popular wisdom expressed in rules of thumb such as "where force won't do, try more force."

But Americans love the Gandhi riddle. While their governments give Israel gigantic military aid, private Americans with the best intentions – and Britons such as actor Ben Kingsley – translate the film Gandhi into Arabic and screen it all over the occupied territories as an example for the Palestinians to follow.

The intentions of "the Gandhi Project" must be noble. And though international law and conventions unambiguously acknowledge the right of occupied peoples to use violence against their oppressors – just like guerrilla fighters did under Nazi occupation – the question whether violence or nonviolence serves their cause better is for the Palestinians to decide. There are, of course, several convincing arguments in favor of abandoning the violent resistance, most notably the huge benefits that Israel draws from portraying the Palestinians as "terrorists" to legitimate the use of its overwhelming military superiority against them.

If "the Gandhi Project" wants to be truly helpful, however, I have a better idea for it. Instead of screening Gandhi in the occupied territories, let it screen throughout America the footage of the recent demonstration in the Palestinian village of Bil'in (to be found on Gush Shalom's Web site). This footage can help inform Americans about the realities of the occupation largely equipped and financed by their taxes – a much more urgent task than teaching Palestinians about the late Indian leader. It also suggests an unusual solution to the puzzle of the "Palestinian Gandhi."

[SNIP]

On Thursday, April 28, about 1,000 Palestinians and some 200 Israeli guests, invited by the people of Bil'in, participated in a demonstration against the wall. All the participants undertook in advance to avoid all violence, no matter whether they had seen the Gandhi film or not. But even before the demo could reach the site of the fence, it was savagely attacked by the Israeli security forces, which bombarded it with tear-gas bombs without the slightest provocation. Among the demonstrators were the Palestinian minister Fares Kadduri, presidential candidate Mustafa Barghouti, Uri Avnery, and Israeli Knesset member Muhammad Barakeh, who was wounded during the attack. The peaceful demonstration was a welcome occasion for Israeli special units to wound several demonstrators with the latest innovation, introduced here for the first time: especially painful plastic bullets covered with salt. Indeed, the so-called Jewish Genius is never exhausted.


[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 03:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Question for you: When is Israel going to make a commitment to end violence?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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posted 04 April 2006 04:17 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The Palestinian Gandhi
[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

Are you saying that those are your words, on that site?

That is what you would say, if you had the chance to participate in Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations?

Surely you have more to say?


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 04 April 2006 04:32 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

Surely you have more to say?

But probably not to you. Use the search function.

[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Krago
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posted 04 April 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Krago     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know what the 'correct' solution is, but I can tell what you what the 'real' solution will be:

(1) In 4-5 years, Israel with complete The Wall, with Jerusalem and suburbs on the west side.

(2) In the 12-18 months following completion, Israel will forcibly remove all settlers on the east side of The Wall.

(3) When that task is finished, Israel will tell the Palestinians to go fuck themselves enjoy the fruits of their new-found sovereignty.


From: The Royal City | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 04:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

Are you saying that those are your words, on that site?

That is what you would say, if you had the chance to participate in Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations?

Surely you have more to say?


I would say that violence is not an issue in the peace negotiation process. I would say that all peace negotiations come from states of war, and if it were the case that any party to a peace negotiation were to assert that violence must cease for a peace process to begin that they would be blocking that peace process, because if there was no violence then there would already be peace.

All peace processes, and negotiation by fact of their symbiotic relationship to war, as an idea and a material fact, happen only while war is still in progress. Therefore any party which states that they will not negotiate with the people they are at war with is blocking the peace process because the only people whom you can negotiate peace with are with those whom one is it at war.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 04:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Krago:
I don't know what the 'correct' solution is, but I can tell what you what the 'real' solution will be:

(1) In 4-5 years, Israel with complete The Wall, with Jerusalem and suburbs on the west side.

(2) In the 12-18 months following completion, Israel will forcibly remove all settlers on the east side of The Wall.

(3) When that task is finished, Israel will tell the Palestinians to go fuck themselves enjoy the fruits of their new-found sovereignty.


That is the poison pawn.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 04 April 2006 05:02 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
if it were the case that any party to a peace negotiation were to assert that violence must cease for a peace process to begin that they would be blocking that peace process, because if there was no violence then there would already be peace.

Seems to me that there's "short term" peace and "long term" peace.

If two guys are fistfighting in a bar, and they agree to talk things over rather than fighting, would you say they should keep taking swings at each other while trying to speak, or would it be better if they could quit hitting each other (temporarily) long enough to quit entirely (permanently)?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 05:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good analogy. But I would say we have one guy on the ground being pummelled repeatedly, while the other make weak attempts to defend themselves and occaissionally gets a blow in. Meanwhile, rather than helping get the big guy off the little guy, you are standing there blaming the guy who is being pummelled.

[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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MartinArendt
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posted 04 April 2006 05:06 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hm, I thought this thread was something else...

Seems kind of like a flamin' thread to me...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 05:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And what is that if not a passive agressive flame?
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MartinArendt
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posted 04 April 2006 05:15 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
And what is that if not a passive agressive flame?

I suppose. I'm flaming the context of the thread, more than anybody in it...my point was more to suggest that I believe it may have been started a bit disingenuously, and not necessarily simply out of an earnest desire to spark discussion.


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Rgaiason
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posted 04 April 2006 07:31 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MartinArendt:

I suppose. I'm flaming the context of the thread, more than anybody in it...my point was more to suggest that I believe it may have been started a bit disingenuously, and not necessarily simply out of an earnest desire to spark discussion.

If you wish to express your own opinion on this topic, in this thread, I won't jump all over you for doing so.

The context of this thread came to be what it is, as a result of my asking Cueball for his opinion in another thread and his request for a fresh thread to discuss it.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 07:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, based on what I said in the previus thread and this thread, and commentary, or even [Heaven Forbid] a response to my questions [/not a chance in hell]?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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Babbler # 11427

posted 04 April 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Krago:
I don't know what the 'correct' solution is, but I can tell what you what the 'real' solution will be:

(1) In 4-5 years, Israel with complete The Wall, with Jerusalem and suburbs on the west side.

(2) In the 12-18 months following completion, Israel will forcibly remove all settlers on the east side of The Wall.

(3) When that task is finished, Israel will tell the Palestinians to go fuck themselves enjoy the fruits of their new-found sovereignty.


...while the war continues. The Israeli economy still requires Palestinian labour to function, and the intended annexation will continue to be illegal. Very little will have actually changed, and not permenent solution will have been found.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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posted 04 April 2006 07:58 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

Use the search function.
[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]

I do. That's why this thread exists.

I discovered a posting by Cueball back on Jan. 11, 2005, in the intros folder, wherein he declares that it is only acceptable for "progressives" to hold and/or express one view on these issues - naturally being his own - and essentially announces his intention to enforce an orthodoxy on these issues within this forum. ["Hijacked threads", 11 January 2005 06:38 PM]

A search of this folder turned up many many postings where Cueball tells other participants, in various wordings: "You're an idiot. You don't know what you are talking about", but very little detail from him about what his own opinion actually is.

So, I decided I should just plain ask him for his opinion, which I have done here.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Agent 204
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posted 04 April 2006 08:09 PM      Profile for Agent 204   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would suggest one of two solutions:

1. Two states, Israel and Palestine (the latter including the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem), or

2. A single state (call it the Federal Republic of Palestine or the like) with four relatively autonomous provinces: Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and Jerusalem.

Either of them seems acceptable to me, though I'm probably wasting time saying this since neither is going to happen.


From: home of the Guess Who | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 08:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excelent work. You have actually done research on this. Oh and by the way, why not link to the thread in question, because if I remember correctly I was being tongue in cheek, in that posting. Not that you would be that discerning.

So, would it be incredibly close minded of me to suggest that the moon is not made of green cheese and mars does not have canals? I assume we are opinions concerge there do they not? So, some things are simply not matters of opinion, and so I challenge you rather than to winge at the idea that some things might be true, and other things may not be true to actually articulate an arguement as opposed to charging at the wind mill of orthodoxy you are so blithe about.

It is for instance, an orthodox position that 5 to 7 million Jewish people were murdered in death camps by the Nazis. It is also quite orthodox for progressive people to claim that it is not progressive to support those executions. In fact I would go so far as to say that it would not be progressive at all to support those positions. I would even go so far as to say that someone who held an opinion opposed to mine on this issue was an idiot -- forgive me my intollerance.

In your quest to confront all these opressive assumptions and the straight jacket of conformity, perhaps you would like to challenge the facts as I have stated them in the paragraph above, and perhaps also my opinion of what a progressive position on those facts are. That way you can liberate us all from the opression of mindless conformity.

Now do you have anything to say? I mean in the vein of explaining to me why I am wrong in my assertion that my position is the "correct" progressive position?

I mean: Why am I incorrect in this?

Anything? Anything at all? Just this blubbering about "orthodoxy." Is that it?

It seems that Martin Arendt was correct in his assertion that your intention of starting this thread had nothing to do with the issue in question, which you have yet to speak to at all, but simply to come after me. How boring.

YOU ARE A JOKE.

[ 04 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 04 April 2006 08:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:
I've started this thread primarily so that Cueball can give me (us) the benefit of his detailed analysis of the correct solution to the Israel-Palestine problem(s), comfortably.

Robin Gaison


You know what? This kind of snarkiness is really not okay in this forum. MartinArendt is right, the whole tone of this thread sounds flamey. And, surprise of surprises, a thread that starts out with snarkiness turns into even more snarkiness. Funny how that happens, huh?

I'm not going to watch this degenerate further. I'm just closing it now.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 04 April 2006 08:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NOOOOOOOOO!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 04 April 2006 08:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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