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Author Topic: Canada cuts relations with Palestine government
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 29 March 2006 05:32 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Canada cuts relations with Palestine government

quote:
OTTAWA — Canada is cutting assistance and diplomatic ties to the Palestinian Authority because the new Hamas government has not renounced violence.
However, Ottawa will still provide humanitarian aid to the Palestinian people through the United Nations and other organizations.

Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay announced the news Wednesday after the Palestinian Legislative Council approved the formation of a Hamas-led government.

“The stated platform of this government has not addressed the concerns raised by Canada and others concerning non-violence, the recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements and obligations, including the Roadmap for Peace,” MacKay said in a statement.

“As a result, Canada will have no contact with the members of the Hamas cabinet and is suspending assistance to the Palestinian Authority.”



From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 29 March 2006 05:57 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The stated platform of this government has not addressed the concerns raised by Canada and others concerning non-violence, the recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements and obligations, including the Roadmap for Peace," MacKay said in a statement.

Shouldn't Israel then be required to:
reject violence
recognize Palestine
respect previous agreements and obligations especially UN sanctions on its actions?

More of Canada blindly following the Bush policies on the road to the Apocalypse.

BTW -- who is that evil dude looking over MacKay's shoulder?


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 29 March 2006 06:25 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Shouldn't Israel then be required to:
reject violence
recognize Palestine
respect previous agreements and obligations especially UN sanctions on its actions?

No. Those requirements only apply to predominantly Islamic peoples. Violence, denial of rights to self-determination, and ignoring of International law and the security council resolutions is just dandy for everyone else.


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Aristotleded24
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posted 29 March 2006 06:53 PM      Profile for Aristotleded24   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's Alexa McDonough's response:

quote:
The NDP supports a peaceful resolution to this conflict that has cost too many innocent lives on both sides of the border. The NDP believes that we must continue to condemn all acts of terror against innocent people, be they Israeli or Palestinian, and that Canada has a moral responsibility to play a meaningful role in advancing peace, through diplomatic and financial means.

It is important to note that direct Canadian assistance has included financial support for judicial reform, housing initiatives, capacity building, education, improving living conditions for refugees and economic development in the Palestinian Authority.

The NDP demands to know how Canada can reconcile its stated goals of supporting and building democracy in Palestine with suspension of direct aid for these important initiatives.


Personally, I'd prefer a much stronger, "It's hypocritical for the Canadian government to talk about how important democracy is and then cut aid and money transfers because the government doesn't like the people the Palestinians chose as their representatives in what was, by all accounts, a free and fair election."


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unionist
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posted 29 March 2006 07:01 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
Here's Alexa McDonough's response:

Here was the previous paragraph of her statement:

quote:
The federal government has cut direct funding to the Palestinian Authority. The NDP recognizes the serious dilemma facing Canada and all donor countries that the Palestinian Authority has a President who remains committed to official recognition of the State of Israel and to the Road Map to peace, while his cabinet is composed of Hamas members whose party calls for the destruction of Israel.

Saying this - and not going on to say "notwithstanding this dilemma, we must recognize the duly elected authority" - is tantamount to support for the Harper government's breaking of relations with the Palestinian government.

We need an opposition party in Parliament. At least, the NDP needs at least person like Svend Robinson back in its caucus. One is better than none.


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Boom Boom
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posted 29 March 2006 08:14 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
MacKay was on 'Politics' tonight telling Newman that Canadian aid to the Palestinians will continue, but to aid agencies and people on the ground, just not through Hamas. At least that's what I understood.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
farnival
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posted 29 March 2006 08:42 PM      Profile for farnival     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
don't you just hate it when people take you up on the democracy you've exported and vote for the folks you didn't want?
From: where private gain trumps public interest, and apparently that's just dandy. | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagnaf
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posted 29 March 2006 08:55 PM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aristotleded24:
Here's Alexa McDonough's response:


Excellent. I can continue to proudly support the NDP, secure in the knowledge that they recognize that supporting Hamas is tantamount to supporting terrorism.


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Cueball
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posted 29 March 2006 08:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Boom Boom:
MacKay was on 'Politics' tonight telling Newman that Canadian aid to the Palestinians will continue, but to aid agencies and people on the ground, just not through Hamas. At least that's what I understood.

1) Hamas has officially and more or less succesfully maintained a unilateral cease fire since the begining of the election and since. To punish the PA and Palestinians is to prejudge that ongoing commitment as false and discourage it.

2) Money sent by the Canadian government does not go to Hamas, it goes to the Palestinian Authority. So your tax dollars go directly to Stephen Harpers bank account?

3) The PA, the government body which Hamas has been elected to run, has not recinded its recognition of Israel. If Hamad changed this then cutting funding to the PA might make some sense. But it does not, because a governments poltical position is only changed when the laws and by-laws of the government are changed, not just because the cabinet espouses a position at variance with the lawful position of the government.

If this were not the case then the same sex marriage law would no longer effective because the CPC won the election, and the CPC doesn't support it.

[ 29 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 March 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagnaf:

Excellent. I can continue to proudly support the NDP, secure in the knowledge that they recognize that supporting Hamas is tantamount to supporting terrorism.


Money from the Canadian goverment is sent to the PA which officially recognizes Israel per commitments made by Yasser Arafat. Money sent to it is not sent to Hamas. If Hamas were to break its ongoing Hudna, or vote to have the PA recind its recognition of Israel the Canadian government might have a case for cutting aid.

Cutting aid it precisely the kind of action wich will encourage Hamas to have the PA recind its recongition, as their will be no carrot. Furthermore the PA will cease ot function, and will be of no use to anyone.

Not carrot and all stick makes for a bad house boy.

It is clear now that the intention of Israel is to destroy the PA, as this will be the only result of bankrupting it, and thus end for ever the Oslo process, which by the way is the source of the very recognition Israel says it desires. By ending the PA as a functioning government Israel and it allies will end Palestinian recognition.

Yes again it will be proven that the only thing Israel understands is force.

[ 29 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Carter
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posted 29 March 2006 09:18 PM      Profile for Carter        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by siren:
More of Canada blindly following the Bush policies on the road to the Apocalypse.
In this case it seems to be more along the lines of the US blindly following Harper policies:

quote:
Reuters, about 6 hours ago

Canada became the first donor to suspend aid to the Palestinian Authority on Wednesday, saying the new Hamas-led government had failed to give assurances that it would recognize Israel's right to exist.

[...]

Although the United States, the European Union and other donors say they are also concerned about the Hamas government, they have yet to cut assistance.


We're #1! We're #1! What was that meme from January again, I'm trying to remember... Oh yeah: Don't worry, the Conservatives can't do anything bad because they only have a minority, and the opposition parties will keep them in check. Hooray for received wisdom!

Actually to be honest, I'm totally in favor of cutting off foreign aid to governments and giving it directly to the people instead. But that should apply to all governments, not just Arab ones that We Don't Like.


From: Goin' Down the Road | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 29 March 2006 10:13 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Originally posted by Carter:
We're #1! We're #1! What was that meme from January again, I'm trying to remember... Oh yeah: Don't worry, the Conservatives can't do anything bad because they only have a minority, and the opposition parties will keep them in check. Hooray for received wisdom!

On the one hand, you're right - and others have made the same point, that even a minority government can do considerable harm. On the other hand, I support in all cases - not just with Hamas - giving aid directly to UN and other aid organizations on the ground.


From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jacob Two-Two
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posted 29 March 2006 10:55 PM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm. Normally I'd agree about the aid, but a case like this is not your garden variety aid situation. We have a downtrodden country occupied by a hostile military that, if Cueball is correct, is out to sabotage its ability to govern itself. Diverting funds from that same governing body could do serious harm in such a scenario. I'd have to see Hamas do something pretty strong before I'd support defunding the PA, and they haven't done anything so far.
From: There is but one Gord and Moolah is his profit | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 29 March 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Carter:
We're #1! We're #1! What was that meme from January again, I'm trying to remember... Oh yeah: Don't worry, the Conservatives can't do anything bad because they only have a minority, and the opposition parties will keep them in check. Hooray for received wisdom!

Yes, well, I certainly wasn't one of the people spouting that meme. I was/am one of the panicky; "Holy f*&ck no, they'll spew everything we stand for into the wind!!!!!!" types.

But it is odd how quickly they have become #1 on this. On other matters (deportation, e.g.) they have hemmed and hawed; it's not really a priority, it's just a continuation of what the liberal govt. was doing . . .

But here, they've taken a radical stance -- and i honestly worry it is for the so-cons, the Jeebus be comin' back and he's not happy, scenario. It would be hilarious if at the summit in Cancun, Bush decides to take a moderate stance. . .

quote:
Actually to be honest, I'm totally in favor of cutting off foreign aid to governments and giving it directly to the people instead. But that should apply to all governments, not just Arab ones that We Don't Like.

Sure, but it's really hard to do that and receive accountability is sometimes the problem. Oh -- maybe Harpercrite will send every Palestinian woman $100 per child for the year to follow.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 29 March 2006 11:51 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was just cruising TAT and came across this link which pogge had found when starting a thread on this subject. I think it should be here for obvious reasons -- and because it is now, "we're #1, with a vicious snotty attitude, dude"

quote:
"Not a red cent to Hamas," MacKay said on CBC's Inside Politics. "This is a terrorist organization."

Hamas members were sworn in as the Palestinian cabinet on Wednesday. The militant group has refused to recognize Israel, renounce violence and agree to follow existing plans to bring peace to the region, as Canada and other countries have demanded.

"They have to change," MacKay said.


But from this report, the stance may be less harsh for living standards then has been suggested:

quote:
The Canadian International Development Agency gives an average of $25 million a year to help Palestinians and their government. But much of that flows through aid agencies and the UN, so Ottawa is actually cutting just $7.3 million.

CBC



From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
thorin_bane
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posted 30 March 2006 12:11 AM      Profile for thorin_bane     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
However that being said, it is in effect poor bashing. While 7.3 million seams paltry to us, I am sure it means a lot to them. That would buy a lot of books for children. While the US give BILLIONS to Isreal. I Know give some money to Palestine but about how much? Wow and I thought the libs where aholes for their "new" stand at the UN this is steven bush in his finest hour. Is there some nice easy to remember word to describe harpercon, how about fucktwit Or TOTY Twit of the year?
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radiorahim
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posted 30 March 2006 01:44 AM      Profile for radiorahim     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Do I hear an echo of Joe Clark?

The Harper government isn't going to last folks.


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Gir Draxon
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posted 30 March 2006 01:49 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:

The Harper government isn't going to last folks.


They might if they continue to operate like they have in the past couple weeks instead of like they did at the beginning of their mandate....

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Hephaestion
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posted 30 March 2006 02:28 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
radiorahim: The Harper government isn't going to last folks.

Gir: They might if they continue to operate like they have in the past couple weeks instead of like they did at the beginning of their mandate.


You mean... secretive and paranoid?


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Albireo
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posted 30 March 2006 03:07 AM      Profile for Albireo     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think rahim meant "bungling", in the style of Joe Clark's "Jerusalem embassy" move. Personally, I'm more worried about bold actions that paint a big "STRIKE US!" sign for terrorists. Scurrying around Khandahar under U.S. cover and saying that it's "our" war... leading the charge against Hamas. I worry about where this could lead.

[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: Albireo ]


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sgm
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posted 30 March 2006 03:26 AM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MacKay was on 'Politics' tonight telling Newman that Canadian aid to the Palestinians will continue, but to aid agencies and people on the ground, just not through Hamas. At least that's what I understood.

I saw MacKay's interview with Newman as well, and came away thinking he had a very weak grasp of the file. Sure, he sounded determined and principled with the 'not one red cent' slogan, but he was vague, bordering on evasive, in response to Newman's requests for specifics about the amount of money affected, the amounts given historically, the specific channels through which the monies have flowed, etc.

I agreed with a number of the panellists who appeared later on the Newman show to say that this decision appeared hasty, and ought to have been taken after input had been sought from the relevant parliamentary committee.

Certainly, MacKay's weak grip on the details of the file suggested the decision had been made in haste. Perhaps it was intended as some kind of pre-summit signal to Bush, or some kind of post-election signal to Olmert: Canada's as on-side as you want us to be, and then some.

There are obvious differences among the cases, of course, but I don't understand why our government is so quick to cut aid to the Palestinian Authority after the election of Hamas, while remaining so resolute in its financial and other support of the government of Afghanistan--despite who's sitting in their parliament--as well as of the LaTortue government in Haiti--not even elected, and having presided over numerous violent human rights abuses.


From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 March 2006 03:46 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Sorta reminds me of the old Warner Bros. Looney Tune cartoon, with the two dogs. Harper's government is the yappy little one saying, "We're buddies, ain't we Spike? Huh? Huh? We're buddies, ain't we?"

Harper, trying to get Bush's approval.

It's pathetic. Get used to it...

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
goyanamasu
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posted 30 March 2006 04:42 AM      Profile for goyanamasu     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Doesn't babble have anybody who serves as a semi self-appointed spokesperson for Hamas? They could dig out details on what a cut in M $7 (CAN) represents in food, med supplies, police wages.
But then under Harper maybe we'll soon see the same witch-hunt of Hamas associates in higher education they've experienced already in places like southern Florida - getting booted out on their ass but with the AAUP and ACLU defending them.
This story is not over yet.

From: End Arbitrary Management Style Now | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 30 March 2006 07:03 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Political grandstanding of the highest order.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 March 2006 07:05 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by radiorahim:
Do I hear an echo of Joe Clark?

The Harper government isn't going to last folks.


Sure, but I have no confidence that the Liberals would not continues with this policy themselves, and I am not entirely sure that the NDP would not either. It is very hard to getting anything remotely courageous out of the NDP in the foreign Policy department.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 30 March 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Does anyone find it odd that to now there seems to be no public reaction from the mainstream Jewish organizations?
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Briguy
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posted 30 March 2006 08:33 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, we now see that two of four parties in the House don't respect democracy abroad. I wonder what the Liberal and Bloc responses will be? Can we reach 4/4?

This sort of reactionary politicking really does put the lie to the statement that our soldiers and those of the USians are "trying to establish stable democracies" in Afghanistan and Iraq. The instant the people in such countries vote for the wrong people, we cut off any help they were receiving. Why don't we just stop all pretenses and invade Palestine, since the Palestinians obviously don't understand the whole point of this democracy thing.

Does anyone wonder whether Mackay or Harper actually spoke with a member of the Hamas government before making this decision? My guess is probably not.

[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: Briguy ]


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 30 March 2006 08:45 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Why would Harper want to speak with anyone from a group that has been defined as Terrorist?
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nister
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posted 30 March 2006 09:03 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mandela was defined as a terrorist.
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Briguy
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posted 30 March 2006 09:06 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Great idea. Let's not talk to anyone we find politically distasteful. That's political progress!
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 30 March 2006 09:08 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:

Why would Harper want to speak with anyone from a group that has been defined as Terrorist?



Good thing Ariel Sharon is in a coma then, I guess. Oh, wait... he's a war criminal. It was Menachim Begin who was a terrorist, right? Silly me, I'm always getting those mixed up...

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 30 March 2006 09:16 AM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
2) Money sent by the Canadian government does not go to Hamas, it goes to the Palestinian Authority. So your tax dollars go directly to Stephen Harpers bank account?

In the case of the PA a good deal of foreign aid went straight to the Fatah leadership. The IMF figures Yasser net worth at $900 million US, others say $700 million.

Pravda (11.11.2004)


From: High River | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
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posted 30 March 2006 09:17 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you win, you're not a terrorist anymore, of course (re: Begin). Also there seems to be a grandfather clause... you don't have to win, but if you stick around long enough you stop being one, too (re: Arafat).
From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 30 March 2006 09:21 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Why would Harper want to speak with anyone from a group that has been defined as Terrorist?

Have you ever, even for a fucking second, stopped to consider why they are defined as "terrorists"?

Do you actually believe it's a genetic "kill all Jews" gene, or has it ever crossed your mind that maybe there are other reasons than "mad dog killers" behind their attacks on Israel?

Too bad I can't call you what you are, as for some reason the moderators seem to believe that as ugly as your opinions are, they still deserve some kind of respect.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 March 2006 09:56 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Does anyone find it odd that to now there seems to be no public reaction from the mainstream Jewish organizations?

What a bizarre comment. Why would anyone think that, ohara? What did you mean?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 30 March 2006 01:18 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
The Hamas charter quotes approvingly from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the well-known Tsarist forgery used to create the atmosphere for anti-Semitic pogroms and, later on, the Holocaust.

It was about time the Canadian government cut ties to those extreme right wing fudnamentalists in Ramallah and Gaza.

Very good news. Very good indeed.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 30 March 2006 01:21 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
And we didn't wait for the Americans or the EU to take the initiative.
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 30 March 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
I think McDonough and the NDP deserve unqualified support for their position to channel aid away from the Hamas nutjobs and instead to Palestinian civil society NGOs that are involved in progressive programs such as education, housing, judicial reform, support for refugees and economic development.
From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 30 March 2006 04:51 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

What a bizarre comment. Why would anyone think that, ohara? What did you mean?


skdadl I think i understand what ohara means. Usually on these kinds of stories official reaction from the Canadian jewish community is usually a given. i guess he's wondering why not with this story

From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 March 2006 05:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, for one thing, I'm not sure what ohara means by mainstream - perhaps the CJC? or the Canada-Israel Committee? Because B'nai Brith have spoken, I believe.

Perhaps the CJC/CIC are thinking things over, as thoughtful people would be, of course. They might even be thinking that Mackay/Harper have taken an unnecessary and over-hasty extra step, which is always a bad thing in diplomacy. I guess we'll see over the next few days, as we also watch what the U.S. and the various Europeans do.

To me, the history of situations like these suggests that this is precisely the time to give the new cabinet a chance to prove that it can enter into international negotiations responsibly. The only alternative is a continuing low-level war, ending perhaps in the complete crushing of the Palestinians by Israel and the U.S.

[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 30 March 2006 05:14 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas being in the tent, so to speak, is a positive to an eventual resolution of the conflict. Refusal to talk to them without preconditions when they have been democratically elected is both foolish and hypocritical.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 30 March 2006 05:27 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wonder how long Mackay is going to be able to stand his current job.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 30 March 2006 05:44 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the Cons are trying to prove they are just as big kid on the block as anyone else. They're deluded.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Tommy_Paine
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posted 30 March 2006 07:41 PM      Profile for Tommy_Paine     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm guessing that relations with Hamas were cut off because Hamas has a less than friendly attitude to it's neighbour, and our ally, Isreal.

Not appropo of anything, but I'm just wondering what the attitude of the Afghan government-- the one our kids are dying for at the moment-- has towards Israel? Free Trade discussions in the offing? Student exchange programs, perhaps?

I'd ask for the CJC to comment, but I understand they are busy in children's library's right now.


From: The Alley, Behind Montgomery's Tavern | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 30 March 2006 08:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hephaestion: Sorta reminds me of the old Warner Bros. Looney Tune cartoon, with the two dogs. Harper's government is the yappy little one saying, "We're buddies, ain't we Spike? Huh? Huh? We're buddies, ain't we?"

That was Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier. Here's a link:
Spike & Chester. Or is it Dubya and Harper?

These two appear in two films only. In Tree for Two Chester tells Spike about a cat they can beat up. Sounds like a pretty good summary of U.S. foreign policy. Anyway, the two trade roles after a panther keeps replacing the cat, Sylvester, and "Spike [becomes] the fawning sycophant, and Chester the smug prizefighter."

In the other 1954 film Dr. Jerkyl's Hyde "Spike (here called "Alfie") is once again after Sylvester, only this time it is Sylvester himself who pummels the poor pooch, thanks to a potion that transforms him into a feline monster."

ChesterHarper, not Kandaharper, might be a better nick-name for our current neocon, war-loving, US boot-licking, democracy-hating, front man for bigots, PM Stephen Harper. May he take unrelenting poundings from cool cats until he slinks away once more to some reactionary "think-tank" for the other barking dogs of the right. Owwwwwwwoooooo!!

[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 30 March 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:

That was Spike the Bulldog and Chester the Terrier. Here's a link:
Spike & Chester. Or is it Dubya and Harper?


Hephaestion & N.Beltov, what are you thinking?

Dubya's sidekick can't be no terrier-est! There's a war on terriers for pete's sake.


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 30 March 2006 08:47 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
siren: Dubya's sidekick can't be no terrier-est! There's a war on terriers for pete's sake.

There's a similarity between a cool cat, like Sylvester, giving the barking dogs of the right a well-deserved thrashing...and another animal story by one T.C. Douglas about mice and cats, eh?


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
John K
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posted 30 March 2006 11:27 PM      Profile for John K        Edit/Delete Post
I'm sorry if Alexa's nuanced statement was offensive to the black and white world of some babblers.

I for one was chilled by an interview Peter Mansbridge did with a Hamas leader on CBC the other night. When asked a direct question about whether a Hamas government would require Palestinian women to cover themselves in public he said something like our women will wish to do so voluntarily out of respect for their religion.

Yeah, and Canadian women will no doubt want to voluntarily be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.

[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: John K ]


From: Edmonton | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 31 March 2006 01:06 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John K:
I for one was chilled by an interview Peter Mansbridge did with a Hamas leader on CBC the other night. When asked a direct question about whether a Hamas government would require Palestinian women to cover themselves in public he said something like our women will wish to do so voluntarily out of respect for their religion.
[ 30 March 2006: Message edited by: John K ]

Whereas I had my interested peaked by a report on CNN (of all places) by C. Amanpour. The report was filed from the university campus in Gaza and featured dozens of women, all in headscarves and "modest" dress taking classes on "feminism" and all affirming that they, too, were "feminists". The ladies insisted that they were free under their scarves. Perhaps it was all a staged ploy, but those women seemed reasonably cognisant, understood what they were doing and their reasons for doing it. If nothing else, it raises the question of what "freedom" is. Is freedom simply being without a headscarf, or is there something more? Is it possible that being free from the leering eyes of men has it's merits. Am I the only one who finds the coincidence of the political and physical "unveiling" of women with their increased sexualisation, beginning at younger and younger ages, at least a little puzzling. Can we really assume that these features are wholly seperate? What is it about industrial capitalism that brings forth the notion of female emancipation while simultaneously commodifying their reduction into narrow sexual roles/body images? (Let me just say, I'm not recommending we reverse the process)) I'm sure this has all been covered by those on Babble better versed in feminist theory than I, but it really got me thinking.

I have to admit, I'm often made uncomfortable by the similarities of the complaints made by the left (modern society is fragmented and over-individuated, capitalist media is sexualising women/men/children, market capitalism doesn't provide the answers to social problems or spritual needs) and those made by many of the so-called "religious right" in Islam. I actually think there is some truth in the perception of the right-wing in the West that there is a complicity of interests between the "fundamentalist" Muslim Other and the leftist Other within Western society insofar as they are reactions to the dominance of capital.

While I don't find their overall prescription for society in the least bit palatable, there must certainly be something to be learned from their defensive responses to the onslaught of Western capital. Maybe the seeds of something quite valuable, like a novel notion of emancipation and/or a new strain of feminist thought will be found where some would consider it least likely, i.e. under a headscarf.

I think it's encumbant on us to listen to these women very carefully and not simply dismiss their choices as predetermined by some bad Other.

[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Yonge Street Blue
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posted 31 March 2006 01:31 AM      Profile for Yonge Street Blue        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

If Hamas were to break its ongoing Hudna, or vote to have the PA recind its recognition of Israel the Canadian government might have a case for cutting aid.

[ 29 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]



I hope you understand that a Hudna is a temporary truce. I'm not sure if today's suicide bombing qualifies as "hudna" or "jihad".


From: Gananoque, Ontario | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 31 March 2006 01:57 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by John K:

I for one was chilled by an interview Peter Mansbridge did with a Hamas leader on CBC the other night. ...


One leader, one opinion.

quote:
Manar TVPalestinian Hamas-led cabinet appoints a female minister

Friday, March 24, 2006 - 04:30 PM [Kods Time]

The formed government of prime minister designate Ismail Haniya would wait until Wednesday, when the parliament gives vote-of -confidence to the cabinet. Hamas-led government is made up of 24 ministers, including a Christian and a female, who is in charge of the women's affairs portfolio.

She is the first woman in the first cabinet formed by Hamas Islamic movement. Mariam Saleh holds a PHD in the Sharia studies and teaches at the al-Quds University. She is also a mother of seven children. She would hold the Woman's affairs portfolio.

Mariam Saleh said "There's no harm for a Muslim woman to share men in work, if she remains decent and preserves her manners and Islamic values. God willing, this will pave the way for other women to hold more portfolios in the future. But the movement's decision to name one woman for the post is not because there is a negative approach from women."



And from the Boston Globe:

quote:
Rejecting the urge to isolate Hamas
By Makau Mutua | March 27, 2006

CONTRARY TO popular political rhetoric in the West, it is a colossal mistake to isolate Hamas, the Islamist movement poised to form the next government in the Palestinian Authority. It is neither democratic nor politically defensible to deny a people the right to be governed by a party they have freely elected to power. If the West truly supports democracy, it must accept a Hamas government.

..........

I know all the arguments against Hamas. The West has declared it a terrorist organization. It refuses to accept the existence of Israel. It has incubated suicide bombers and attacked civilians. Its Islamist blueprint would subordinate women and violate the rights of moderates and non-Muslims. But Hamas endeared itself to Palestinians by providing social services and adopting a zero-tolerance policy to corruption. That is partly why it won.

..........

Spurning Hamas will only further radicalize it and the Palestinian people, making peace more elusive. The policy of isolation will be proof positive to Palestinians that no matter what they do -- including a democratic election -- the Israelis and the West will never permit them statehood. This will harden Hamas and narrow the space for moderates in Palestinian society. It will also diminish the influence of secularists and liberals.

..............

The West must remember that it once designated Nelson Mandela's African National Congress a terrorist organization. Engaging Hamas -- as opposed to isolating it -- may establish the first real political democracy in the Arab world.

Makau Mutua is director of the Human Rights Center at the State University of New York at Buffalo.



From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
siren
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posted 31 March 2006 02:14 AM      Profile for siren     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Globe & Mail
30/03/06

quote:
Poor women to feel sting of aid cuts, organizer says
MARK MACKINNON

JERUSALEM -- Sabah Abu Irmana wants the Canadian government to know who they're punishing by cutting aid to the Palestinian Authority: poor, disadvantaged women who rely on Canadian help for what income and education they have.

The 47-year-old runs women's centres in Jabalya and Nuseirat, two sprawling and squalid refugee camps in the Gaza Strip. She believes that the $3.8-million in Canadian aid over the past three years has resulted in a lot of good being done.

About 150 women a day come to the centres, where they find refuge from the dangerous and deeply conservative world of the refugee camps. Some come for literacy classes, others for medical and legal advice. Many come to develop skills such as candle-making and woodworking, hoping to sell what they make and get some extra money for their families.

Their daughters come for special gym and sexual-education programs, since such classes are scarce at their schools. Some girls, whose families prevent them from going to school, get their only education through the women's centres.

All that, Ms. Abu Irmana said, will be lost if Canada cuts the flow of aid to the Hamas government. The women's centres are almost entirely reliant on Canadian money, but are run through the Palestinian Ministry of Social Affairs. Therefore, they are part of the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority to which Foreign Minister Peter MacKay yesterday said Canada was suspending aid.


Views of the opposition on this bone headed move?

[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: siren ]


From: Of course we could have world peace! But where would be the profit in that? | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 31 March 2006 03:38 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Congratulations to the Canadian government for staking out a position on Palestine that is to the right of the US, at least for the moment.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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posted 31 March 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yes, it's a disgraceful hypocrisy to support democratic elections and then reject and condemn the policies of the party that ends up being elected.

We should accept and endorse whatever policies democratically elected governments stand for.

Such as:
- executing gay teens: in iran

- invading iraq, in the US
- cutting off support to the palestinian authority, in Canada.

Eh?

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 31 March 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you, siren, for those excellent links.

And as for this:

quote:
Originally posted by John K:
I'm sorry if Alexa's nuanced statement was offensive to the black and white world of some babblers.

I for one was chilled by an interview Peter Mansbridge did with a Hamas leader on CBC the other night. When asked a direct question about whether a Hamas government would require Palestinian women to cover themselves in public he said something like our women will wish to do so voluntarily out of respect for their religion.

Yeah, and Canadian women will no doubt want to voluntarily be barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen.


Quite frankly, John K, I doubt there are many women, Palestinian or Canadian, who give a damn what "chills" you or Peter Mansbridge.

The main political problem of the entire world continues to be the unbelievable arrogance of Western men like you. What the hell were you ever doing for the liberation of the women of Palestine before now? And how have you earned any right at all to tell any woman anywhere how she should dress?

Ye gods. The presumption.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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Babbler # 5752

posted 31 March 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Issues are black & white, tra-la, tra-la" said Snow White to the Handsome Prince.

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes--and ships--and sealing-wax--
Of cabbages--and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot--
And whether pigs have wings."

"But wait a bit," the Oysters cried,
"Before we have our chat;
For some of us are out of breath,
And all of us are fat!"
"No hurry!" said the Carpenter.
They thanked him much for that.

"A loaf of bread," the Walrus said,
"Is what we chiefly need:
Pepper and vinegar besides
Are very good indeed--
Now if you're ready, Oysters dear,
We can begin to feed."

"But not on us!" the Oysters cried,
Turning a little blue.
"After such kindness, that would be
A dismal thing to do!"
"The night is fine," the Walrus said.
"Do you admire the view?

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 March 2006 06:54 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
I think McDonough and the NDP deserve unqualified support for their position to channel aid away from the Hamas nutjobs...

I can't take it any more.

nutjobs

Read the credentials of these people, many of whom are not in Hamas. If only the Canadian cabinet contained so many PhDs.

Asking Hamas for the moon: Severing ties illustrates flawed policy

quote:
Canada and the US are the first governments that have severed all ties with the Palestinian Authority. Canadian Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay and International Cooperation Minister Josee Verner announced this week that "Canada will have no contact with the members of the Hamas cabinet and is suspending assistance to the Palestinian Authority."


In mid-February, as the Israeli government announced that it would stop reimbursing the customs duty which it collects on behalf of the PA, the Israeli Prime Minister's Advisor Dov Weisglass was quoted by Israeli media as referring to the planned economic siege on the PA as a diet, whereby "the Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die".


CAF concerned about Canada’s suspension of contact with Hamas cabinet and assistance to Palestinian Authority – welcomes continued humanitarian aid to Palestinian people

[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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posted 31 March 2006 07:05 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Read the credentials of these people, many of whom are not in Hamas. If only the Canadian cabinet contained so many PhDs.

It hasn't occurred to you, that all those PHDs in "Islamic Studies" or "Sharia/Islamic Law" are roughly equivalent to PHDs in Theology from Oral Roberts University?

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 31 March 2006 07:46 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...the Palestinians will get a lot thinner, but won't die.
Some genuinely chilling words from Dov Weisglass, Advisor to the Israeli PM.

From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 31 March 2006 08:12 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

It hasn't occurred to you, that all those PHDs in "Islamic Studies" or "Sharia/Islamic Law" are roughly equivalent to PHDs in Theology from Oral Roberts University?

Robin


That's some pretty prejudicial stuff you're claiming there. I presume you are an expert in Shari'ah jurisprudence? For starters, Shari'ah is not entirely based on interpretation of the Quran (like Oral Roberts school is based on study of the bible) but is rather the culimination of centuries of common law. In other words, it it not purely doctrinal in nature, but is (like our own jurisprudence) a system designed to react to the needs of society to keep order and preserve social mores, etc.

Shari'ah (unlike what would usually pass for "bible study") is not only concerned with questions of a metaphysics and doctrinal practices (prayer, articles of faith, etc.) but with basic social practices like inheritence, family law, and property law.

A better comparison would be Mishna or Talmudic law as practiced in Judaism.

Not to contribute to too much thread drift, but could you please explain how Shari'ah differs formally (i.e. not in content) from the practice of law in Western states? It seems to me that you have a set of codified principles (black-letter law) which are then interpreted to suit arising social problems or challenges (arbitration, adjudication). Both are based in a foundational document (e.g. Constitution, Quran, Hadith, Founding Law) which is thought to take it's authority from the will of God and those who properly interpret that law (Shari'ah professors, rabbis, lawyers and justices...).

So how can you dismiss it so quickly as a serious form of jurisprudence (nothwistanding its content)?

[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 31 March 2006 08:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

It hasn't occurred to you, that all those PHDs in "Islamic Studies" or "Sharia/Islamic Law" are roughly equivalent to PHDs in Theology from Oral Roberts University?

Robin


Please specify your source. Or are you just engaging in wild and prejudiced generalizations.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 March 2006 08:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Does anyone find it odd that to now there seems to be no public reaction from the mainstream Jewish organizations?

I have noticed that they only really talk when something bothers them.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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Babbler # 5752

posted 31 March 2006 08:59 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Shari'ah (unlike what would usually pass for "bible study") is not only concerned with questions of a metaphysics and doctrinal practices (prayer, articles of faith, etc.) but with basic social practices like inheritence, family law, and property law.

A better comparison would be Mishna or Talmudic law as practiced in Judaism.


I'm not impressed by theology-based "scholarship", in any form.

quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

So how can you dismiss it so quickly as a serious form of jurisprudence (nothwistanding its content)?
[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

I'm not. I'm dismissing it as a serious form of scholarship.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
eau
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Babbler # 10058

posted 31 March 2006 09:03 PM      Profile for eau        Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinians will get a lot thinner but won't die..

In my own lifetime I never thought I would hear that from anyone from Israel. Its beyond chilling. It reminds me of the comment about those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it ..again and again.


From: BC | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
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Babbler # 5752

posted 31 March 2006 09:21 PM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Please specify your source. Or are you just engaging in wild and prejudiced generalizations.

Yes. But you seem to be offended by my equating a PHD in Sharia studies with a PHD in Theology from Oral Roberts University, so you must be assuming that a PHD from Oral Roberts constitutes something less than genuine scholarship - or you wouldn't be offended. Please specify your source for this belief of yours.

Yes, it's true - I'm bigoted against equating religious studies with serious scholarship. I've even acted on this. I would surely burn in hell, except that no such thing exists.

But it's true! I filed a complaint many years ago with Alberta Education, against then lay preacher Stockwell Day and his fundamentalist "school" in Red Deer that used the ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) materials instead of the required curriculum materials. I'm such a raging bigot!

That didn't stop me from having several friendly letter exchanges with Dr. Elmasry. You know him?
I'd written him to tell him how delighted I and my family members all were, when the University Mosque in Edmonton was built on my grandparent's property - where I grew up. I'd also written to share my experiences fighting nazi skinheads on the streets of Edmonton back in the late 1980's and early 1990's - of patrolling around Synagogues and Mosques during that time, as an unpaid volunteer who was not a member of either faith community - and many other things I thought might interest him.

He was kind enough to send me a signed copy of his book, which disappointingly turned out to be a rather elaborate philosophical treatise "proving" the superiority of Islam over other systems of ethics.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 31 March 2006 09:44 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the links, al-Qa'bong. Worthy of study. For example, as best as I can figure out, the PA has a Minister of Prisoners' Affairs, Wasfi Kabaha. But these are prisoners in Israeli jails, no?

The Prime Minister is from a city destroyed by the Israelis. He has been imprisoned by them several times, including a stint of three years when he was held without charges. The Israelis have illegally deported him more than once and they have also tried to kill him, at least once, the last time being in September 2003.

The Foreign Minister is a doctor and surgeon by training. With the second Palestinian uprising in September 2003, Dr./Minister Zahar's house was bombed by the Israeli army, killing the doctor's son and wounding his wife and daughter.

Apparently these Islamic institutions of higher learning also include such scientific activities as...medicine, surgery, and so on.

But of course, when your country is occupied and atrocities take place on a daily basis, then it is a good idea to have a surgeon around.

One last point. I've only noted two ministers but both of them have lots of kids. I wonder if that isn't more than just the culture of large families but also a kind of insurance against legal murder by the Israeli authorities...

[ 31 March 2006: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2006 12:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

Yes. But you seem to be offended by my equating a PHD in Sharia studies with a PHD in Theology from Oral Roberts University, so you must be assuming that a PHD from Oral Roberts constitutes something less than genuine scholarship - or you wouldn't be offended. Please specify your source for this belief of yours.


Source of a belief? Are you out of your mind. You do not source beliefs. You might source evidence or facts to support your beliefs, but not source a belief. You either have them or you do not. What kind of numb question is that? And you want to talk about scholarship?

I am not offended. I am asking you for evidence to support your idea that Islamic law and Christian Babtist Metaphysics are in any was shape or form similar. If you can not do this it sounds like you are spouting pure bigotry.

It is supremely ironic that someone would denigrate the "scholarship" of someone else and then not be able to provided references to back up their arguement, except some arm chair suppositions supported by their own insular anecedotal experiences. Mounting a case denigrating a whole tradition of thought on the basis of a few letters between you and one Muslim lobbyist does not a rate as a comprehensive piece of well researched scholarship.

Sorry.

Remember here we are talking about Islamic law, not Sufi Metaphysics or Islamic ethics, so lets put Mr. Elmasry aside, as "ethics" is not "law."

For one thing, I think someone tried to point out that Islamic law is not like religous studies, it is the study of a whole system of law much older than British law, and as such, whether or not you think it is a just or useful system, it is still a complex system of laws, by-laws, precedents, and legal practices, with a huge volume of tradition and supporting text.

Therefore, even if we discount the value of the system of law, it still requires immense amount of learning to understand, and is not simply like the musing you do about metaphysics when you are in your yoga class, or whatever it is you do to approach the state of disconection from reality you seem to be able to achieve in your postings.

Only someone with a profound lack of understanding of what scholarship entails, would bound into a seminar on the qualities of Islamic law withoue even arming themselves with essential facts to support their thesis.

You have stated that the gentlemen in question have not applied themselves to the material they have studied as "scholars." I am asking you to source facts to support this assertion. Something along the lines of revealing the research you have done on either the schools these people you are criticizing attended as a basis for asserting your belief about the quality of scholarship they have attained, or not.

Otherwise you are just blowing of hot air.

Murry Banman.

[ 01 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
sgm
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5468

posted 01 April 2006 12:49 AM      Profile for sgm     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

I have noticed that they only really talk when something bothers them.


Small point of correction: Frank Dimant of B'nai Brith was quoted in a few stories:
quote:
Frank Dimant, the Canadian vice-president of B'nai Brith, said the decision means that Canada has stood to its principles by refusing to do business with a terrorist entity whose avowed aim continues to be the destruction of the Jewish State.

Also here:

quote:
In Ottawa, the Jewish group B'nai Brith applauded the government's move.

"The message will certainly resonate with the other democracies in the Western world, the fact that Canada has now repeatedly stated it will not deal with Hamas and it will not be aiding this terrorist entity," said Frank Dimant, the group's executive vice-president.

He advised that the Canadian government should fund only humanitarian projects in which there is a clear paper trail to ensure that no money reaches Hamas.

"Even though (the Palestinians) regrettably elected a terrorist entity, the people are still entitled to food, entitled to housing, entitled to clothing, entitled to a proper education," Dimant said.



From: I have welcomed the dawn from the fields of Saskatchewan | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5752

posted 01 April 2006 01:28 AM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Murray, but there is nothing you can say that could convince me that the study of "God's opinion" on human affairs constitutes serious scholarship, regardless of what tradition you might be referring to.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 April 2006 01:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh I am not Murray.

I thought that if you spent time doing anti-skinhead stuff in the late 80's and early 90's in Edmonton you'd know Murray "the punk" Banman (who was a skinhead) and Spider and all the SNFU people, but I guess you are well... full of it.

That isn't me.

But you see, you don't get it. I am not talking about gods "opinion." I am talking about the highly evolved legal system based on what people think god opinion is.

To put it plainly: Islam is not christianity. Get that idea out of your head.

You see, Islam evolved more a set of laws and rules, as opposed to metaphysical allegories as in the bible, from which one is meant to devine truth. The Qu'ran on the other hand is singular and focussed work of one man, (Such as: Pray five times a day looking toward Mecca. -- see it is very specific.) not a collection of disjointed texts, and is also a very practical and straightforward guide as to the daily activities that "believers" should do in order to be faithful to god.


From that Islamic scholars devised what are called the Hadiths, which are interprestation of how those rules and law apply as reflected through understanding ("Sunna," which essentially means the way of life of Mohammed,) of what Mohammed did in his life, and from this Sunni Islam came into being. This is opposed to Shia Islam which is more focussed on the Qu'ran itself as a text as opposed to how Mohammed acted in life.

That is my understanding of it. Any actual Muslims please forgive any inacurracies.

But I am talking about Sunni Islam. So, from the Qu'ran and also the Hadiths, a system of law was founded usually called Sharia, and it is a system of law, not the "opinion of god" as "metaphysics" or "ethics" quite explicitly it is a complex practical, and highly legalistic interpretation of gods opinion of how people are meant to be organized socially as a codified system of law adapted in multiple forms in a variety of countries.

Probably if you had read the Qu'ran you would have some sense of it. So start there.

[ 01 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 01 April 2006 02:18 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:
Sorry, Murray, but there is nothing you can say that could convince me that the study of "God's opinion" on human affairs constitutes serious scholarship, regardless of what tradition you might be referring to.

Robin


Fair enough. You're an atheist.

But you're also trying to walk the walk of a hardcore RASH, huh? Why bother patrolling the streets around Mosques and Synagogues if you don't think the people inside are worth protecting? I mean, all those rabbis and imams are just stupid people wasting their time on sham scholarship after all. What on earth are they good for?

[ 01 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 01 April 2006 02:27 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

I'm not. I'm dismissing it as a serious form of scholarship.

Robin


Tell me, then, are you equally dismissive of other forms of law scholarship like, for instance, scholarship in Canadian law? Is being a lawyer "not serious"?

The reason I ask is that our system of jurisprudence is also enacted - in the end - in the name of God.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5752

posted 02 April 2006 12:25 AM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Oh I am not Murray.

I thought that if you spent time doing anti-skinhead stuff in the late 80's and early 90's in Edmonton you'd know Murray "the punk" Banman (who was a skinhead) and Spider and all the SNFU people, but I guess you are well... full of it.


I know who Spider is. Don't remember much about a Murray Banman, but I was pretty focused on Dan Sims. I don't remember a Murray on our side, among the SHARPS like Darren T. I remember watching SNFU guys trashing their house during a near-pure alcohol party somewhere close to 110 street and 80 avenue during that time. I don't drink, so I didn't spend much time hanging out at The Bronx or the "Slam-bassador".

You know who I am, but you hide behind a pseudonym. So I guess you are...

quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Probably if you had read the Qu'ran you would have some sense of it. So start there.
[ 01 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I thought the Qu'ran was interesting, not as tedious as the Torah, but definitely less interesting than the Vedas I've perused. I was raised by Universalists, so I've been exposed to various forms of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neo-paganism, Christian Science, B'hai, and all manner of New Age movements.

I think your determination to view me as somehow Islamophobic or anti-palestinian is revealing, and your attempts to attack my character in some way is even more revealing. Is your purpose here to enforce some kind of orthodoxy? How terribly unprogressive of you.

Robin Gaison
Edmonton


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5752

posted 02 April 2006 12:42 AM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Fair enough. You're an atheist.

But you're also trying to walk the walk of a hardcore RASH, huh? Why bother patrolling the streets around Mosques and Synagogues if you don't think the people inside are worth protecting? I mean, all those rabbis and imams are just stupid people wasting their time on sham scholarship after all. What on earth are they good for?

[ 01 April 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


A person's worth has nothing to do with their belief system, their color, their ethnic origin, their education or lack of it, or how they choose to spend (or waste) their time. As human beings, they are my brothers and sisters and I'll do whatever is in my power to stand with whoever is being victimised.

You, apparently, have a scale on which you balance people's worth - and it is clear from your postings that people who dare to deviate from your own perspective have no worth in your eyes. You really are as bad as the FD.

Which is what I wanted to see. I wanted to see if things had improved at all, on contentious issue threads. Regretably, nothing has changed.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 02 April 2006 01:31 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rgaiason:

I thought the Qu'ran was interesting, not as tedious as the Torah, but definitely less interesting than the Vedas I've perused. I was raised by Universalists, so I've been exposed to various forms of Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Sufism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neo-paganism, Christian Science, B'hai, and all manner of New Age movements.

I think your determination to view me as somehow Islamophobic or anti-palestinian is revealing, and your attempts to attack my character in some way is even more revealing. Is your purpose here to enforce some kind of orthodoxy? How terribly unprogressive of you.

Robin Gaison
Edmonton


No. Where did I say you were Islamaphobic or anti-Palestinian. That is your baggage.

What I asked was that you back up your determination that the people in question have not applied themselves as scholars, and that their credentials are not worth the paper they are written on.

You have come off as some kind of person whith some grounding in religious world views. Your asesertions are shallow and without basis in fact, or scholarship of your own, otherwise you would know that Islamic law can be a precise subject of study.

As for the credentials of the assorted persons you have denigrated, I suppose it may be true that some of them are half assed, however I know that some of them are not, for instance the late Abdul Aziz Rantisi whom was leader of Hamas just after Sheik Ahmed Yassin, and himself killed last year studied pediatric Medicine at the University of Alexandria, and was a Doctor Doctor, not some kind of religious flake.

Perhaps you would care to go over the credentials of some of those you have denigarted and look for examples of the charlatanism you seem to be expert on.

As opposed to... falpping your gums... pointlessly why not simply do what I asked and back your assertion. Would you? No. Like a true pedant you are more interested in semantic games than doing something as simple as research, which is, as you should know, a fundamental basis of scholarship.

[ 02 April 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 02 April 2006 04:09 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's a better link to the Palestinian Cabinet announcement.

If one reads the credentials listed here, there isn't anything remotely comparable to a degree in Christian Studies from Oral Roberts University. There are a few who have degrees in Islamic law, but these degrees would be similar to degrees in Canadian law, Code Civil, or any other form of jurisprudence.

quote:
Ismail Haniyeh -- Prime Minister and Minister of Information (Hamas)

Mr. Haniyeh graduated in 1987 from the Islamic University in Gaza where he studied Arabic literature and Sharia (Islamic law).
Mahmoud Zahar – Minister of Foreign Affairs (Hamas)

Dr. Mahmoud Zahar was born in Gaza City in 1951 to a Palestinian father and an Egyptian mother. He spent much of his childhood in Egypt where he later studied medicine and graduated in 1976 with a specialization in general surgery.

Upon his return to the Occupied Gaza Strip, Dr. Zahar was named the head of the Department of Nursing at the newly established Islamic University of Gaza...

Saeed Siyyam – Minister of the Interior and Civil Affairs (Hamas)
Mr. Siyyam was born in 1959 in Gaza City in the Occupied Gaza Strip. He is a Palestinian refugee from Jura – a destroyed city near Ashqelon in what is now Israel. He studied science, mathematics and Islamic studies at the Islamic University in Gaza and later, at the Open University of Jerusalem. Formerly the head of the teachers’ union [a union man!] at schools run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, Mr. Siyyam is an educator who serves on the Board of Trustees at the Islamic University in Gaza.

Omar Abdul Razeq –Minister of Finance (Hamas)

Mr. Razeq was born in Salfit in the West Bank in 1958. He holds a Ph.D. in economics from the University of Iowa, and is currently a professor of economics at Najah University.

Mariam Saleh – Minister of Women’s Affairs (Hamas)

She holds a Bachelor’s and Master’s degree in Islamic law from the University of King Abdel Aziz in Saudi Arabia. She obtained her Ph.D. in Islamic law from Um al-Qura University in Mecca, Saudi Arabia.

Nayef Rajoub – Minister of Waqf (religious affairs) (Hamas)

Mr. Rajoub was born in Dura, a village near Hebron, in 1958. He holds a Bachelor’s degree from the University of Jordan and a Master’s degree in Islamic law from Hebron University.

Jamal al-Khudari – Minister of Telecommunications (Independent, supported by Hamas)

Born in Gaza City in 1955, Mr. al-Khudari holds a Bachelor’s in electrical engineering from Cairo University in Egypt.

Bassem Naeem – Minister of Health (supported by Hamas – not a member of the PLC)

Dr. Naeem is from Beit Hanoun in Occupied Gaza Strip. He holds a medical degree with a specialization in surgery from Germany. He currently works in Shifa Hospital in Gaza. In addition to his medical practice, Dr. Naeem serves as the head of the Palestinian Medical Club and as the head of the Islamic Medical Group, an organization supported by Hamas. His eldest son was killed by the Israeli army.

Ahmed Khalidi – Minister of Justice (supported by Hamas – not a member of the PLC)

Mr. Khalidi hails from Nablus. He currently serves as the head of the College of Law at Najah University in Nablus. He was a member of the drafting committee of the Palestinian Basic Law (akin to a constitution).

Yusuf Rizqa – Minister of Information (supported by Hamas – not a member of the PLC)

Mr. Rizqa lives in Bureij refugee camp in the Gaza Strip. He holds a doctorate in Arabic literature and serves as the President of the College of Arts of the Islamic University in Gaza.

Abdulrahman Zeidan – Minister of Transportation (Hamas)

He holds a Bachelor’s degree from Alabama State University and is in the process of completing his Master’s degree in engineering from Najah University in Nablus.

Mr. Zeidan currently works for PECDAR, a Palestinian-Economic research institute. He serves as a member of the Board of Trustees of the Engineers’ Association of Palestine as well as on the boards of other NGOs.

Atif Adwan – Minister of Refugee Affairs (Hamas)

Mr. Adwan is from Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. He obtained his Bachelor’s degree in political science from Cairo University and his Master’s and doctorate in the United Kingdom. In 1996 he was appointed associate professor at the Islamic University in Gaza, attaining full professorship in 2001. Mr. Adwan is also the head of the Mustaqbal Research Institute in Gaza.

Mr. Adwan is the author of 18 books in the fields of political science, Palestinian studies, and Hamas and its leadership. He is a member of the Palestine National Council, the Palestinian government in exile.

Aziz Dweik - Speaker of the PLC (Hamas)

Mr. Dweik was born in 1948 in Nablus, though he hails from Hebron. With an extensive educational background, he holds three Master’s degrees (in education, city planning and regional planning), and obtained his Ph.D. in Regional and Architecture Planning from the University of Pennsylvania.


[ 02 April 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rgaiason
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5752

posted 02 April 2006 08:30 AM      Profile for Rgaiason   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:


LOL!

There's still the question of who you are.

You might be Gina, or Todd, or Grant, I suppose.

Any of those would be a real disappointment, as I remember them all to be far too intelligent to get suckered into wasting so much time and effort being baited on an internet forum.

Robin


From: edmonton | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 April 2006 08:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:
Have you ever, even for a fucking second, stopped to consider why they are defined as "terrorists"?

Do you actually believe it's a genetic "kill all Jews" gene, or has it ever crossed your mind that maybe there are other reasons than "mad dog killers" behind their attacks on Israel?

Too bad I can't call you what you are, as for some reason the moderators seem to believe that as ugly as your opinions are, they still deserve some kind of respect.


Listen, maybe your week off didn't cool you off as much as it should, but this is unacceptable. ohara did nothing in this thread to deserve this, so chill out, or you'll be taking another time out.

P.S. I see this is another thread that has degenerated into insults and slinging. So I'm closing this too. And I'm going to keep closing every thread in this forum that goes this way.

[ 02 April 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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