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Author Topic: Israelis storm Palestinian prison
Clog-boy
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posted 14 March 2006 08:14 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There goes another log on the fire:

Israelis storm Palestinian prison

quote:

Israeli troops have stormed a prison compound in the West Bank town of Jericho, knocking down walls and killing at least one Palestinian.

The Israeli army is demanding the handover of militant leader Ahmed Saadat, who it holds responsible for the assassination of a minister.

Mr Saadat is normally guarded by British and US prison warders, in addition to Palestinian jailers, but they were withdrawn on Tuesday for what they described as security reasons.

Mr Saadat has been in Palestinian custody since early in 2002 - being moved to Jericho under international supervision in a deal to lift Israel's siege of Yasser Arafat's Muqataa compound in May of that year.

The following month the Palestinian High Court ordered his release, saying there was no evidence to link him to the Zeevi assassination.

Israeli officials said Mr Saadat would be killed if he was freed, and the Palestinian cabinet blocked the release.



From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 March 2006 08:33 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, God.

This sounds very bad.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 14 March 2006 08:48 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indeed it does..!
Demonstrations and uproars have been mentioned to take place in all the area's.
All foreigners have been fleeing from the Palestinian area's, as they're targets for angry mobs.

Everyone knows the situation over there is an inflammable one. Why is that Israel every once in a while has to barge in like an elephant in a china shop...?

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 14 March 2006 09:06 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a joke ... Another case of Israeli "justice".

I suppose Proconsul Harper will be applauding this illegal action by a fellow province of the New Rome empire instead of doing what he should be doing and dropping all diplomatic ties with Israel.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 14 March 2006 12:28 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Mr Saadat is normally guarded by British and US prison warders, in addition to Palestinian jailers, but they were withdrawn on Tuesday for what they described as security reasons.

Is this kind of like how in the old South USA, all the police deputies would be given the night off before the lynch mob shows up at the county jail to kidnap and kill the accused?


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boom Boom
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posted 14 March 2006 12:33 PM      Profile for Boom Boom     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CBC Newsworld has been reporting live from the scene this morning via telephone with one of their reporters. It's been described as a very, very, very bad situation.
From: Make the rich pay! | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 14 March 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
U.S. Teacher abducted after Israeli raids

quote:
JERICHO, West Bank - Palestinian gunmen kidnapped an American teacher at a university in the West Bank on Tuesday, part of an outbreak of violence that followed a raid by Israeli forces on a Palestinian prison.

The teacher was abducted at the American University in Jenin, university officials said.

Israeli forces driving bulldozers and firing tank shells and missiles burst into the Palestinian prison looking for prisoners convicted of killing an Israeli Cabinet minister. Dozens of inmates were removed, but one of the most-wanted men was holed up inside.

Furious Palestinians attacked offices linked to America and Europe, torching the British Council building in Gaza City and kidnapping a foreign employee of the Red Cross in Gaza. Gunmen also seized four guests — including two South Korean journalists and a French woman — from a Gaza City hotel and two Australian teachers at an American school.



From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 March 2006 12:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is almost beyond belief, isn't it. Madness, sheer madness. And politics, of course, which these days seems to amount to pretty much the same thing.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 14 March 2006 01:10 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Clog-boy:
Why is that Israel every once in a while has to barge in like an elephant in a china shop...?

They don't want peace.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 14 March 2006 01:15 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you look on the BBC website, utter chaos is breaking out.

Portrait of Ahmed Saadat

The Israeli government did everything to destroy the Palestinian left; now they are complaining about the fundamentalists...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 14 March 2006 01:21 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
The remarkable thing is the obvious collusion of the US and UK, which were supposed to be providing international safeguards against exactly this occurrance.

However, those safeguards have turned out to be non-existant, as the supposed security detail got politely out of the way the moment the Israelis decided to attack.

The Palestinians have every right to feel betrayed, because that's exactly what's happened.

~~

Maybe the Palestinian Authority should dissolve itself, forcing Israel to take over administration (and funding) of the occupied territories once again, in accordance with their international obligations.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 March 2006 01:25 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The British duplicity in this stinks to high heaven!

Jack Straw is codemning Palestinian violence but not the Israeli assualt. And on withdrawing British monitors from the prison: "It is the prime responsibility of the Palestinian Authority to ensure the personal security of the United States and United Kingdom monitors.

"Over the last months it has become increasingly clear that the Palestinian Authority is unable to do this."

Security against an Israeli assuault they can't prevent and of which the British had adance notice?

I am quickly losing any and all respect for the British. This is not the state that stood against Hitler.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Frustrated Mess ]


From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 14 March 2006 01:39 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
It's clear that this entire operation was planned and coordinated in advance. The Israeli tanks were minutes behind the retreating british and americans, and both the White House and the British Foreign office have sophisticated PR campaigns at the ready--they had the texts of letters already prepared, for example, ready to hand out to the press.

It's not difficult to speculate that the March 8 letters were written with exactly this scenario in mind--they made impossible but reasonable-sounding demands, fully intending these to be the excuse for a later withdrawal and coordinated Israeli attack.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 14 March 2006 01:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the CBC link.

It appears that Sadaat has surrendered.

The CBC also reports that a Canadian aid worker was briefly abducted but then freed.

It is horrible to think what is coming. Horrible.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: skdadl ]


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 07:55 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I think that the Israeli reaction was more than was necessary. However I am sympathetic to the fact that these terrorists were allegedly involved in murder and the planning of terrorist activities. So what to do? Let them go free?
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2006 08:16 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
The Israeli government did everything to destroy the Palestinian left; now they are complaining about the fundamentalists...

The Israelis and Americans and Brits did everything to destroy secular nationalism in the Middle East and beyond, starting right after World War II, and we are all paying for it now.


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 14 March 2006 08:19 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I think that the Israeli reaction was more than was necessary. However I am sympathetic to the fact that these terrorists were allegedly involved in murder and the planning of terrorist activities. So what to do? Let them go free?

I think, in the interest of world peace and impartiality, we should have sent the Royal 22nd in to secure the prisoners and then hand them over to the Americans for safekeeping in Guantanamo. We have a responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves to solve their problems for them.


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Merowe
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posted 14 March 2006 08:40 PM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've just caught some BBC radio coverage. I like the speculation that the stunt has to do with upcoming elections in Israel, a need on the part of the reigning politicians to demonstrate sufficient machismo/sadism to see them returned to office.

The whole business seems to have been messily done, unnecessarily so, which supports the above idea. The Israelis are masters at discrete behind the scenes manipulations/spycraft etc. and if they wanted this fellow they could have had him a hundred different ways far less ostentatious.

It also seems pretty cut and dried that there was coordination with the British and Americans on this and they have much to answer for. Ok, more to answer for. How else might the Israelis have an 'extraction team' - a bunch of murderous louts with tanks, air support and automatic weapons - standing by on precisely the day the foreign monitors withdrew? Far too convenient, the snatch was orchestrated to my mind.

And finally, against the Israeli propaganda I can't help thinking, there must be dozens, hundreds of Israelis as culpable in the coldblooded murder of various Palestinians and its just not fair that the Palestinians don't get to march in to Israel and blow up a few buildings, shoot a few people and kidnap oh sorry capture the relevant criminals. I'm thinking of the architects of that one ton bomb that took out that apartment building and fourteen bystanders for a start.

I know, that's just not a constructive line of thought. But I understand the Palestinian frustration.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 08:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I think that the Israeli reaction was more than was necessary. However I am sympathetic to the fact that these terrorists were allegedly involved in murder and the planning of terrorist activities. So what to do? Let them go free?

From Lagatta's link. I was going to write this context myslef, but it is here.

quote:
Ahmed Saadat: Radical Palestinian leader

Ahmed Saadat, 52, had been secretary-general of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) for only a short while when he was arrested in connection with the killing of right-wing Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Zeevi by PFLP gunmen in 2001.

Saadat originally trained as a teacher

The attack itself was to avenge the assassination of Mr Saadat's predecessor, Abu Ali Mustafa, by Israel.

Mr Saadat - a second-generation PFLP leader - has been in Palestinian custody since early 2002.


It is a big stretch for Israel to be able to claim that Palestinian "targetted killings" of upper echelon Israeli leaders is terrorism, when it does the same.

Furthermore, the operation in which Ze'evi was killed was a classic assasination in which only Ze'evi was killed, unlike the mass salughter than often accompanies Israeli targeted killing.

Ze'evi was a an open racist, whom called Arab-Israeli's lice and a cancer within Israel, and called for them to be transferred. Ze'evi was retired ranking officer in IDF, and not simply an innocent tourism minister, handing out brochures about the sights of Tel Aviv to interested journalists.

The only kind of travel he was really interested in was travel for Palestinians out of the West Bank, and preferably Israel proper.

Israeli minister assassinated

quote:
Mr Ze'evi was shot three times in the head and neck at close range in the Hyatt Hotel, which is close to Palestinian areas in east Jerusalem, police said

[SNIP]

Despite his job title, Mr Ze'evi rarely commented on tourism and was known for his hardline positions against the Palestinians. He had called for the "transfer" of all Arabs and Palestinians from Israel and had sparked controversy in July for referring to Palestinians working and living illegally in Israel as "lice" and a "cancer".


In my view the killing of Ze'evi is on par with the Czech assassination of Herr Heydrich in occupied Czechoslovakia in 1941. Certainly, it is not a war crime, and not even close to terrorism.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 08:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way: there is some more background on this story here, as it warmed up a few weeks ago, here:

Abbas to release Sadat so that Israel can gun him down


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 08:54 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I think, in the interest of world peace and impartiality, we should have sent the Royal 22nd in to secure the prisoners and then hand them over to the Americans for safekeeping in Guantanamo. We have a responsibility to those less fortunate than ourselves to solve their problems for them.


This was in fact the principle of having US and British wardens help gaurd the PFLP leadership, a deal that was negotiated by the late Yasser Arafat during the now famous siege of the Ramallah compound. In fact the siege of the Ramallah compoun itself was largely justified by Areil Sharon on the basis that it was to effect the surrender of these suspects.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 08:58 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

In my view the killing of Ze'evi is on par with the Czech assassination of Herr Heydrich in occupied Czechoslovakia in 1941. Certainly, it is not a war crime, and not even close to terrorism.



This Nazi analogy is uncalled for. Unless of course you wish to provoke.

Heydrich was known for his brutality and was the architect of the Final Solution. You clearly need a history lesson.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 09:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is absolutely an approriate given that both Herr Heydriech and Ze'evi openly promoted transfer of subject populations.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 09:04 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I thought these improper nazi analogies were against the rules. Do you not count Cueball? Perhaps instead of engaging your ego I will just lodge a direct complaint to the moderator.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 09:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Take it up with the moderators. I can't help it if Ze'evi public statements and his long stated goals, as well as the means of his assassination, bear comparisons to certain members of the leadership of the NSDAP. Perhaps, Sharon should have thought about such before making an open racist whom supported genocide, (as defined by the UN,) a cabinet Minister.

The case against the PFLP would have some merit were it not the case that Israel itself took the first step of ordering extrajudicial killings of politcal leadership. Were Israel to stop, it might be possible to condemn the PFLP for this action.

This stands aside from the fact that, my point is to compare the legality and morality of the assassination, as opposed to the similarity of their political positions, which are many, and include forced deportations and dehumanization of a specific racial minority.

I believe that the ban on making Nazi comparisons is a ban on gratuitous Nazi comparisons. This one most certianly is not.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 09:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I want to ask, just whom are Palestinians allowed to kill?

It seems Israel feels it can kill just about anyone, but even when Palestinians cleanly take out a political and military leader it is still "terrorism." I understand why one would call the killing of unarmed civilians "terrorism," but this?

Ridiculous.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 14 March 2006 09:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The rule is that you're not allowed to make Nazi comparisons about other babblers. I know that certain people would really like it if no Nazi comparisons were ever allowed about anything at all. There are already precedents of pro-Israeli posters using those comparisons when it comes to Palestinians, Mishei (who later became Macabee) being the most blatant in this thread.

I'll tell you what, ohara - if you tell us all here and now that you think that it was anti-semitic of Mishei/Macabee to make that comparison by posting an article which compared Palestinian schools to those of Nazi Germany and then agreeing with the article in a subsequent post, then I'll ask Cueball to stop.

I actually don't mind terribly much asking everyone to knock off the Nazi comparisons anyhow - not because I think Nazi comparisons are inherently wrong, but because it really doesn't add anything to this discussion - Godwin's law seems to be multiplied by a thousand in this forum.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 10:04 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Anti-Semitic, no, not as anti-Semitism is defined. Stupid yes.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 10:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
The rule is that you're not allowed to make Nazi comparisons about other babblers. I know that certain people would really like it if no Nazi comparisons were ever allowed about anything at all. There are already precedents of pro-Israeli posters using those comparisons when it comes to Palestinians, Mishei (who later became Macabee) being the most blatant in this thread.

I'll tell you what, ohara - if you tell us all here and now that you think that it was anti-semitic of Mishei/Macabee to make that comparison by posting an article which compared Palestinian schools to those of Nazi Germany and then agreeing with the article in a subsequent post, then I'll ask Cueball to stop.

I actually don't mind terribly much asking everyone to knock off the Nazi comparisons anyhow - not because I think Nazi comparisons are inherently wrong, but because it really doesn't add anything to this discussion - Godwin's law seems to be multiplied by a thousand in this forum.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


I disagree entirely. The comparison I made was to the assasination of political act in war. Heidrych is the most famous of these. I think rule should only apply to gratuitous usage, which this is not.

The assassination of Hedryech is one of the most famouns in history up there with the assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand, and the assassination of Admiral Yamato, in 43. The Arch duke killed by a lone serb gunman at a time of peace, the killing of Yamato done by aircraft during a war.

The assassination of Heidrych is aboslutely comparable, historically speaking as a legal and moral precedent.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 10:16 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Heydrich was a mass murderer, an absolute blood thirsty sociopath. That he committed one act that might be used as a comparision is absurd. This remains an affront and a clear attempt at thread drift.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 14 March 2006 10:24 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Heydrich was a mass murderer, an absolute blood thirsty sociopath. That he committed one act that might be used as a comparision is absurd. This remains an affront and a clear attempt at thread drift.

So you think that a comparison with Sharon would be reasonable, but not with Ze'evi? Is that your position?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 10:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was not why he was killed. He was dead before anyone in England really knew about the camps and in fact was dead even before the main part of the killing was done in the camps. I don't doubt that he would have approved of it all. That is besides the point. He was killed in a joint resistance British operattions. Certainly no one called it terrorism.

He was killed by Czech resisting their occupation. Had Israel not taken the lethal step of liquidating the leader of the PFLP, the arguement that killing the putative "civilian" leadership of Israel is "terrorism," might hold water, but that is not the case.

I think I have explained adequately why I think the killings are comparable, morally and legally, and it is obvious that my statement is not simply a drive by.

It is unfair and manipulative of you to try and make the moderators make a politcal determination on this issue.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 14 March 2006 10:27 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Anti-Semitic, no, not as anti-Semitism is defined. Stupid yes.

Well, unfortunately, being "stupid" isn't against babble policy. Oh well.

Cueball, since your point has now been made, can we move on? Let's not make allow this whole thread to turn into whether your analogy was valid or not.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 March 2006 10:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me! I was responding to O'hara's latest post, I don't see why I should not make the point I made. If the point I made is not against Babble policy, then why can I not defend said point?

It is O'hara who has made this into an issue, not me. Everything I said was on point.

I even went on beyond that post, making other points, but it is O'hara who is trying to drift the thread by focussing on one minor point of one post.

I think it is absolutely fine for me to defend the legality of the so called crime of the PFLP leadership based on previous historical precedent.

It speaks to the whole issue of these arrests, and the attack upon the PA police, and their prison.

[ 14 March 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 14 March 2006 10:46 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
My last word on this. Cueball in my view is wrong and it is more than clear to me why he or she continues.

The thread Michelle pointed to earlier is a sad statement about the Middle east thread. It appears that when frustration gets high, Nazis come out of the closet and the thread gets derailed.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 March 2006 10:56 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone remember this?

quote:
IIf only there was a viable entity within the PA that could jail their Palestinian terrorist leaders

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 March 2006 11:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
It appears that when frustration gets high, Nazis come out of the closet and the thread gets derailed.

Great. Gays are being compared to nazis now?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Frustrated Mess
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posted 14 March 2006 11:13 PM      Profile for Frustrated Mess   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It appears that when frustration gets high, Nazis come out of the closet

That's interesting because at the exact same time ohara came in, the thread got derailed. What's that old saying about to know one?

From: doom without the gloom | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 14 March 2006 11:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, so let's not move on.

Feel free to start a new thread if you actually want to talk about the the storming of the Palestinian prison.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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