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Author Topic: Hamas Win continues
Transplant
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posted 14 February 2006 02:39 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
U.S. and Israelis Are Said to Talk of Hamas Ouster

NY Times - The United States and Israel are discussing ways to destabilize the Palestinian government so that newly elected Hamas officials will fail and elections will be called again, according to Israeli officials and Western diplomats.

The intention is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money and international connections to the point where, some months from now, its president, Mahmoud Abbas, is compelled to call a new election. The hope is that Palestinians will be so unhappy with life under Hamas that they will return to office a reformed and chastened Fatah movement.

The officials also argue that a close look at the election results shows that Hamas won a smaller mandate than previously understood.

The officials and diplomats, who said this approach was being discussed at the highest levels of the State Department and the Israeli government, spoke on condition of anonymity because they are not authorized to speak publicly on the issue. ...


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 14 February 2006 02:50 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No surprise there. All the bluster at their election seemed to me to be just a way to mask fears of having to negotiate with a group that is less pliable and bribe-able than Fatah. While Hamas has some unsavoury ideological material in their platform, they also have a very strong idea about what they think the starting point for negotiations with Israel are. They have clearly set out a set of demands (Israeli withdrawl, the end of settlement building and evacuation of existing illegal settlements) which is actually similar to a wide international consensus on what is necessary to fix this problem. For obvious reasons, the US and Israel don't want Hamas to set the agenda in these terms and would like to control the negotiating process from the top down as they always have.

As much as politicians use ideological appeals to win support, for the most part diplomats need to think in realistic and pragmatic terms. Operation "Get Israel Whatever It Can, By Whatever Means Available" is still in effect and no doubt efforts are being made to undermine Hamas from as many different angles as possible.

For example, I suspect recent airstrikes in Gaza were meant to envoke an aggressive response from Hamas and lead them to 'discredit" themselves. For their part, they were smart enough not to bite.

[ 14 February 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 February 2006 05:32 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
U.S. asks Palestinians to return $50 million in aid
quote:
WASHINGTON - The United States has asked the Palestinian Authority to return $50 million in U.S. aid because Washington does not want a Hamas-led government to have the funds, the State Department said on Friday.

Democracy marches on...

quote:
Israel decided on Friday to block Hamas members of the Palestinian parliament from traveling from the Gaza Strip to the West Bank city of Ramallah for Saturday's swearing-in ceremony, Israel Radio reported. The ceremony will instead be conducted via video conference.


...and on...

[ 17 February 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 18 February 2006 02:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
...and on...

quote:
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice cautioned Iran and other Middle East powers on Friday of the consequences for the region of giving money to a Palestinian government led by Hamas.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 18 February 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice cautioned Iran and other Middle East powers on Friday of the consequences for the region of giving money to a Palestinian government led by Hamas.

Who the fuck does miss twinkle toes think she is?


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Cueball
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posted 19 February 2006 05:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
She thinks that the word state, in her job title is plural.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
nycndp
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posted 19 February 2006 12:40 PM      Profile for nycndp     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:

Who the fuck does miss twinkle toes think she is?


quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
She thinks that the word state, in her job title is plural.

It seems to me that Hamas is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such. They are unwilling to recognize an established UN member, Israel, and it seems to me that what Condi is doing is entirely appropriate.


From: Ajax, Ontario | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 February 2006 12:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This arguenment is patently absurd given that they are elcted to a body that recognized Israel's right to exist in 1989, and as such those commitments stand until such a time as the PA officially recinds that recognition. The PA is constituted on agreements between Israel and the PLO and as such is the party with which Israel negotiates, whomever is elected to run the PA.

It is not as if a government body automiatically recinds its previous agreements simply based on the election of a new party with different ideas.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 February 2006 01:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas has demanded that it be removed from the US list of suspected terror organisations as the Palestinian movement prepares to enter government for the first time.
quote:

Moussa Abu Marzouq, a member of Hamas's political bureau, said the inclusion of Hamas on the US list could not be justified, especially when the movement is "deeply rooted" in Palestinian society as demonstrated by its victory in last month's legislative elections.

He said: "No state shouldering its responsibility in the region could keep Hamas on the list of terror organisations, because Hamas is a national liberation movement that confines its struggle to the occupied territories and had never targeted its weapons outside Palestine."



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Transplant
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posted 19 February 2006 01:13 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nycndp:
It seems to me that Hamas is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such.

It seems to me that the United States is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such.


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lagnaf
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posted 19 February 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Transplant:

It seems to me that the United States is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such.


And one makes the other better how, exactly?


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Cueball
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posted 19 February 2006 02:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well one thing that makes Hamas better is the fact that it only operates in its own country, against the people whom are occupying it.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 20 February 2006 10:13 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sweden gives millions more in Palestinian aid

quote:
The additional aid was necessary since Israel was not living up to its responsibility as an occupying power, Peter Lundberg of SIDA's humanitarian unit said in a statement.

"According to the fourth Geneva convention, the occupying power has a particular responsibility to support and ensure the human dignity of the occupied," he said.

"Since Israel is not living up to its responsibility under international law, large parts of the Palestinian population are now completely dependent on international humanitarian aid," Lundberg added.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 21 February 2006 03:28 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nycndp:

It seems to me that Hamas is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such. They are unwilling to recognize an established UN member, Israel, and it seems to me that what Condi is doing is entirely appropriate.


They are also an established political party that won a free election to represent the Palestinian people. They are also one of the primary providers of social assistance in the Occupied Territories and have helped Palestinians with food, shelter, healthcare, and a host of other social goods and should be treated as such.

They have furthermore put forward an offer of a truce and a clear agenda for negotiation with Israel based on basic principles recognised by much of the international community - i.e. the withdrawl of Israel from the Occupied Territories and, the evacuation and dismantling of illegal settlements, and recognition - at least in principle - of the Palestinian right of return. In other words, they have clearly articulated the opinions of a majority of Palestinian people and have said that they will defend that position by all political -- and potentially violent -- means. The threat of violence in self-defense is crucial to the functioning of the international system. In this regard Hamas are no different than any other member state of the UN. Completely hypocritical statements from American and Israeli officials opposing violence and politics notwithstanding. Why should Israel not be forced to "renounce violence" as a political tool before they sit at the negotiating table?

Israel is running scared, because it appears that they are now faced with a broadly supported political group that is not prepared to be mealy-mouthed wardens of Palestinians on behalf of Israel as Fatah was. Israel are using the issue of recognition to stop talks before they start because it is still in their interest to pursue their goals through force and violence - i.e. military occupation, fence building, and settlement expansion. Sitting down to talk with a group that is unprepared to waver on these basic - and I would argue fully justifiable - principles would expose the Israeli position for the hypocritical sham it is.

The issue of recognition could easily be part of peace negotiations based on a principle of reciprocity - e.g Israel recognises the Palestinian's right to a state with contigious borders and full control of their affairs and in return that Palestinian state recognises Israel. As has been pointed out before, there is no state in the international system afforded the "right to exist" in the abstract. States are contingent on the recognition of certain conditions and by their position in the international power structure. The United States explicitly endorses this notion in the case of Iraq - the state was effectively overthrown and replaced by force because it wasn't meeting certain conditions. Why is Israel to be afforded carte blanche?

Anyway, tabling a negotiating agenda that viewed recognition as a two-way street might go a long way to cornering the more radical and violent elements in Hamas. But, until it is in Israel's interests to make peace, they aren't going to bother.

[ 21 February 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagnaf
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posted 21 February 2006 10:17 PM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well one thing that makes Hamas better is the fact that it only operates in its own country, against the people whom are occupying it.

No, that would be the IDF.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 February 2006 10:27 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right, the IOF is engaged in resistance against an occupying power.

What colour is the sky in your world, lagnaf?


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DrConway
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posted 22 February 2006 12:10 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
U.S. asks Palestinians to return $50 million in aid

That has to be the most offensive bullying tactic I've ever seen. This is just the most visible instance of a large, wealthy nation forcing a poor nation's government to do what the leaders of said wealthy nation want.

Even the World Bank and the IMF have more finesse when they conduct their shakedown operations. The USA's just acting like a big Mafia thug.

The IMF and World Bank act more like a loan officer foreclosing on a mortgage because he wants the land.

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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Andrew_Jay
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posted 22 February 2006 12:17 AM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
A week old, but in the very last session of the old parliament, Fatah pulls a fast one which could at least prevent a complete disaster:

quote:
Palestinian Parliament Gives New Power:
RAMALLAH, West Bank - The outgoing Palestinian parliament on Monday passed legislation giving Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas the power to appoint a court that could veto legislation passed by the new Hamas-led parliament to be sworn in this week.

Under the new law, the constitutional court could veto legislation deemed in violation of the Palestinians' Basic Law, a forerunner to the Palestinian constitution. Abbas would appoint the nine judges to the new court without seeking parliamentary approval, according to the legislation.
. . .



From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 February 2006 01:41 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
A week old, but in the very last session of the old parliament, Fatah pulls a fast one which could at least prevent a complete disaster

What do you mean by "complete disaster"?


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S1m0n
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posted 22 February 2006 01:52 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
What an act of parliament gives, parliament can take away. The first act of the new parliament should be to strike down the new law.
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Jacob Two-Two
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posted 22 February 2006 02:12 AM      Profile for Jacob Two-Two     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What if the Liberals constructed a similar court to prevent the incoming Conservative government from creating any "complete disasters"? Would you support that move, Andrew? What are your true feelings about democracy? Come clean.
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Bobolink
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posted 22 February 2006 12:18 PM      Profile for Bobolink   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The real question is where do Israel's interests lie? What would they gain by negotiating with Hamas? What would they lose? How best to protect Israel's security against a government that denies its right to exist?
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Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 12:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Immaterial.

The laws of a government do not change just because a new party takes power. They change when that government changes the laws to suit their platform. The Palestine Authority recognizes Israel's right to exist, and Israel negotiates with the PA, not with Hamas.

Case in point the Liberal SSM law is the law of Canada, until such time as the Conservatives change it, not because Stephen Harper and most of his caucus feel otherwise.

This "recognition of Israel's right to exist," or not is a red herring, for now at least.

Also it should be that the primary reason that Hamas stayed away from being ivolved officially with the PA in the past was specifically because the PA was founded on the principle that the PA recognized Israel right to exist. So, in an explicit sense, running for office is recognition, since the PA is founded on the basis of an agreement that explicitly recognizes Israel's existence.

I think it very unlikely that the Assembly of the Palestine Authority, would even be able to retract recognintion, or that Hamas itself would not be extremely devided on the issue.

Plainly, the only reason that Israel and its allies are not pursuing their policy with these facts of law in mind is because they are choosing not to for political reasons.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 22 February 2006 01:01 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jacob Two-Two:
What if the Liberals constructed a similar court to prevent the incoming Conservative government from creating any "complete disasters"?

Isn't that the senate?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 22 February 2006 01:59 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel Warns Iran Against Palestinian Aid

AP - Iran offered Wednesday to help finance a
Palestinian Authority run by the Hamas militant group, state radio said in a report that brought a quick warning from
Israel that it would do all it could legally to stop the Palestinians from receiving the money.

The secretary of Iran's Supreme National Security Council, Ali Larijani, announced the offer after a meeting with Khaled Mashaal, the political leader of the Hamas, in Tehran, radio said.

Larijani said the decision was taken after the United States said it would not provide aid to an authority governed by Hamas until the group renounced violence, recognized Israel and agreed to abide by existing agreements between Israel and the Palestinians.

"The United States proved that it would not support democracy after it cut its aid to the Palestinian government after Hamas won the elections. We will certainly help the Palestinians," Larijani said, Iran radio reported. ...


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S1m0n
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posted 22 February 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:


Israel that it would do all it could legally to stop the Palestinians from receiving the money. ...

Considering that Israel has in the past gone to the length of robbing banks, conducting bombing raids on civilian-infested locations, and engaging in terrorism, kidnapping and assasinations in third countries to deprive its enemies of support and money, I suspect that what they mean by "legally" is broad indeed.

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 22 February 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bobolink:
The real question is where do Israel's interests lie? What would they gain by negotiating with Hamas? What would they lose? How best to protect Israel's security against a government that denies its right to exist?

Their interests lie in maintaining the status-quo - i.e. expanding settlements, building walls; creating "facts on the ground" and maintaining the support of the U.S. for every single crime they commit. So negotiating isn't on their agenda at this point especially with the reactionary bunch in the White House.

Also, one cannot help but take into account Hamas' position on corruption, etc. The agreements that created the PA, outside of their "political" import also included or lead the way for a number of economic arrangements that put Israel in the driver's seat as far as the Palestinian economy is concerned. Moreover, Arafat and friends were on the take along with Israeli businessmen and officials in lopsided deals. Hamas can't be seen to be playing that game for the time being. I suspect that the threat to cut off funds is an attempt to starve not only the Palestinian people, but also to starve Hamas of their support, hoping that eventually they will be more pliable than they are currently.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 22 February 2006 04:02 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
duplicated post

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 February 2006 07:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I still want to know what Andrew_Jay means by "complete disaster." What is he talking about?

Palestinians Are Being Robbed by Israel

quote:
To judge by the actions of the Israeli Cabinet on Sunday, the money belongs to Israel. The Cabinet announced that it was going to withhold Palestinian tax and customs revenues, at least for the moment, as a response to Hamas' electoral victory. Until the money is released — if it is released — the Israeli treasury will earn the interest.

But it's not supposed to work this way. According to the Oslo accords (and by any standards of common sense and basic justice), the revenues should serve the people who ultimately buy the goods. These tax receipts are not donations of goodwill from Israel; they are not charity. This is not like, say, Dutch foreign aid money, which is given freely by the Dutch people and can be withheld if the Dutch choose to stop giving it. These are tax revenues that are due to the people in the territories where the goods are headed, and the Israelis have no right to hold them up.

Since 1994, these revenues, transferred each month from the Israeli Ministry of Finance, have made up a critical portion of the Palestinian Authority budget. When Israel briefly stopped transferring the revenues in 2001, pressure from the EU and other countries — including the U.S. — forced Israel to reverse its decision. Unfortunately, after the Hamas victory, such pressure seems unlikely.

Last year, the $711 million constituted almost two-thirds of the Palestinian Authority's revenues. (Only $383 million was collected in income and sales taxes within the West Bank and Gaza.) Even with all those revenues, there was still an $800-million shortfall in the Authority's $1.9-billion budget. Why are domestic tax receipts so low? Because the economy is in constant recession and "operates well below its potential," according to the World Bank.

What debilitates and cripples the Palestinian economy is Israel's heavy, systematic restrictions on movement within the occupied territories — hundreds of roadblocks and military checkpoints that delay, prolong and sabotage normal economic activity and, hence, potential tax revenues.



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Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 07:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think all of this is may be the lead up to the final ethnic cleansing. This time Palestinians will once again choose to abandon their homes, for fear of privation and possible starvation.

Gee wouldn't a nice little war with Iran be just the ticket to destract peoples attention away from a mass expulsion?

Of course it will all be the Palestinians fault because the PA failed to collect a signed waiver from each every single Palestinian over the age of Sixsteen stating that they "renounce violence" and "recognize Israel's right to exist."

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BC NDPer
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posted 22 February 2006 07:18 PM      Profile for BC NDPer   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Once again black is white and white is black in the delusional mind of Cueball.

Official Ethnic Cleansing Plan


From: Yes | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 07:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that PA recognizes Israel's right to exist. Or are you suggesting that that just because Stephen Herper doesn't recognize the right of gay people to marry, that this is relevant to Canadian law, as it stands today?

Or does old Stevie boy have to go to Pareliment and recind recognition?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BC NDPer
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posted 22 February 2006 07:43 PM      Profile for BC NDPer   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, wow, almost as ludicrous an analogy as your previous one - cartoons = tattooing jews

But I'll play your silly game. "Irrelevant" you say? Really, irrelevant?

Would international gay and lesbian organizations wait for legislation before they responded to a party with the following Charter (I simply replaced "Jew" "Zionist, and "Israel" with "Gay"

"Preamble

"Gays will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).


Our struggle against the Gays is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.

Hamas slogan

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. (Article 8)

Peace process

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. (Article 13)

Gays

Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason...
In their Nazi treatment, the Gays made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder. (Article 20)

Allies of Gays

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained.... With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world... They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Gay interests. (Article 22)"


Irrelevant? Well, if its irrelevant to you fine, but it's not irrelevant to me and most other people so let's agree to disagree.

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: BC NDPer ]


From: Yes | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 22 February 2006 07:48 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“We are stumped by the failure of our democratic concepts to gain a foothold in the Arab world,” wrote Michael Bell, a former Canadian ambassador to Israel, in The Globe and Mail last week. I wonder which “democratic concepts” Bell had in mind — apparently not the concept that people are free to elect the government they choose.

If Hamas must renounce violence, so should Israel - Linda McQuaig


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
BC NDPer
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posted 22 February 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for BC NDPer   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Palestinians voted for Hamas - fine. They have to live with their decision like we have to live with Harper as PM. Surprise surprise, Israel, Europe and North America aren't interested in helping a party with this sort of raison d'etre....

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

News flash...reality check hits babble.


From: Yes | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 08:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by BC NDPer:
Cueball, wow, almost as ludicrous an analogy as your previous one - cartoons = tattooing jews

But I'll play your silly game. "Irrelevant" you say? Really, irrelevant?

Would international gay and lesbian organizations wait for legislation before they responded to a party with the following Charter (I simply replaced "Jew" "Zionist, and "Israel" with "Gay"


Fraud. Gay people are not a country. Please, when making lineal semantic word replacement transformations between texts for the purposes of histrionic hyperbolic distortion please stay within the rules of grammar.

"Gays" is not a proper noun, "Israel" is, a proper noun.

You could ethnically cleanse Israel of Israelis but not Israel itself. But that is not what the text says. What it actually says is that Jews who wish to remain would remain within an Islamic state -- more or less the inverse of Israel, where Muslims live in an Jewish state.

At best you can say that Hamas is the equal opposite of Zionism.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BC NDPer
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posted 22 February 2006 08:27 PM      Profile for BC NDPer   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Fraud. Gay people are not a country. Please, when making lineal semantic word replacement transformations between texts for the purposes of histrionic hyperbolic distortion please stay within the rules of grammar.


Wow, there are at least a couple words in that para. I don't understand. I do understand "fraud" though and deny it applies. I simply continued your silly analogy and explicitly did what I said I would do with the Hamas Charter. Violations of grammar don't amount to fraud. I know the debate is over when Cueball becomes 'particularly' shrill - so this will be my last post on this topic.

"At best you can say that Hamas is the equal opposite of Zionism."

Fine, your opinion. In my opinion, a deeply disturbing opinion. In fact, an opinion so radical and vile I've never heard it uttered live and I'm starting to think you're a CIA plant to undermine Palestinian support.

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: BC NDPer ]


From: Yes | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 08:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A plant? Well it is said that they made the deserts bloom.

Perhaps this fella, Ran HaCohen, is another CIA plant courtesy of Israeli Hydroponics: Hamas and Israel: Rival Twins


quote:
But apart from that, Hamas and Israel's leadership have surprisingly much in common. And not just because they both terrorize each other.

Hamas, as its Charter (art. 11) states, believes that since "the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it." Hamas claims that the whole of Palestine – including what is now Israel – belongs to Islam.

Similarly, all Israeli leaders – Begin, Rabin, Netanyahu, Barak, Sharon, and Olmert – have always claimed that the entire land of Israel, including the occupied Palestinian territories, belongs to the Jewish people, stressing their deep emotions for every inch of it. Asked about his feelings on the West Bank settlements of Ofrah and Bet-El, Ehud Barak, considered the most dovish Israeli prime minister, said that for him it was all Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel). Israel's new foreign minister Tzipi Livni just told the New York Times, "I also believe, like my parents, in the right of the Jewish people to the entire land of Israel." Olmert now speaks in similar terms. Even when Israeli leaders talk of giving up parts of the land, they always stress their belief that these parts belong to us, but that they have to be evicted due to pragmatic considerations (demography, security, economy) – never because of Palestinian rights. Both Israel and Hamas do not acknowledge the other side's right to the land.

Moreover, both Hamas and Israel formulate their claims on the entire land not in any legal, moral, or pragmatic terms, but in religious ones. It's nationalism with religious roots, anchored in Heaven and Time Immemorial. Hamas invokes the Islamic term of Waqf; the Israeli discourse is just as theological, even if it is covered by a thin layer of secularity. As Israeli historian Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin succinctly puts it, the Israeli position in a nutshell is "God doesn't exist, but He promised us this land." Zionism never let go of the Bible as its constitutive charter.


There is more there. Enjoy!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 22 February 2006 09:31 PM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Hamas founding charter 1988, article 32:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

We all know what the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are. An anti-semitic forgery of the Tsarist secret police used to foment pogroms and later used by the Nazis to prepare for the Holocaust.

This is the philosophy on which Hamas is based.

Will Cueball now continue to defend Hamas?

I hope not.

It's hard to trust anything from a movement with that kind of stance in their charter.

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 February 2006 10:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aren't you the guy said that the Hamas charter says that trees and rocks talk?

And what about "freedom of speech, I don't hear that plantive cry from you now? What is up with that. They are just words. Ignorant words surely but only words, after all.

The point is not to defend Hamas. The point is to not misrepresent them. Of course quoting the Proticols of the Elders of Zion speaks of a great ignorance, and is in my view dangerous, as dangerous as the repeated misrepresentation of what they are saying, or have said.

All of that aside, what is most important is to abide by the principles of democracy which we are supposedly defending, as well as the rule of law.

This means that we do not defend Israel direcltly intervening in the democratic process by withholding funds collected by Israel on behalf of the PA, (also known as stealing) or by preventing Hamas members of the Palestinian assembly from taking their seat in that assembly.

An honest approach would be to allow Hamas to take their seat in the Assembly and then see if they are willing to negotiate, give the PA the money which Israel agreed to, and then if they decide to change the standing protocol upon which the PA is founded, that being a clear "recongnition of Israel's right to exist," and then take a position on that, at that time.

As for the future goes, it has not yet been proven what parts of its charter Hamas will act on, and Mamet once said: "Money talks and bullshit walks."

[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
sidra
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posted 22 February 2006 10:50 PM      Profile for sidra   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Critical Mass2,

Could you please inform us as to what boundaries for Eretz Israel has Zionism envisioned ? More precisely, why does Israel keep expanding. For that is the essence of what Hamas' Charter is talking about. Your anti-semitism and "Protocol of Elders" accusations are hogwash. Furthermore, there is no mention of Jews, but of Zionists, there is a difference.

Please quit this line of anti-Zionism is anti-semitism, it will only hurt your cause. If you have any, that is.


From: Ontario | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 February 2006 02:06 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arabs Seek to Secure Palestinian Funding
quote:
A senior Palestinian official, who refused to be identified because he did not wish to embarrass fellow Arabs, agreed with Ghattas' figures.

``The maximum that Arab countries have paid is $100 million of the $600 million they agreed to give,'' he told The Associated Press.

He noted what he felt was the irony of a situation in which the United States formerly pushed the Arabs to live up to their funding pledges, while now encouraging them not to send money to a Hamas-led government.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice cautioned Iran and other Middle East powers against giving money to a Hamas-led government. She also expressed doubt that the militant Islamic group could raise badly needed international financing unless it changes its policies.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 February 2006 08:12 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Sidra if you don't know what the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are, you have a major problem. They are considered history's worst anti-Semitic forgery, used to prepare the Holocaust. This is part of Hamas's official founding charter, its very constitution.

This is the kind of organization one should not be excusing. The fact they base their vision on the Protocols does not seem to bother some people. Now we know. About Hamas.

The fact they don't plan to immediately go out and carry out what the Protocols state or implement the rest of the charter does not detract from the fact the roots of their philosophy (a combo of modern fundamentalist reinterpretation of Islam and ideas borrowed from European fascism) has been shown in history to be extremely ugly and pernicious.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Critical Mass2 ]


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 09:52 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is clear that the document has anti-semitic leanings.

However, acceptance and inclusion of false evidence such as "Protocol's of The Elders of Zion" does not de facto mean that the document advocates a mass ethnic cleansing. In fact the document expressly opposes this in the favour of a traditional Islamic mode of governance, which includes Jews as having recognized rights, as outlined in the article by Ran HaCohen above.

The document is quite a bit different from Mein Kampf, and should be read carefully as opposed to spuriously. Just because something has similarities does not mean it is the same.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 February 2006 10:10 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Oh, isn't that nice. Their document is not as bad a Mein Kampf. It is only the Protocols of the Elders of Zion we're talking about after all

Nothing to get upset over, just a few unimportant details from European fascism. It's not as if the Protocols of the Elders of Zion have ever had any impact in history

You are allowed to think what you want. Including that it is no big deal that a party forming a government in a volatile part of the planet has a philosophy inspired in large part on those Protocols.

Ouate-è-verre as we say in French.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 10:15 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am glad that you agree that the position outlined in the Hamas document does not specify ethnic cleansing in its program.

As I said before, it is more or less the equal opposite of the Zionist view, placing Jews in the inferior position, as opposed to Muslims. Both should be rejected as essentially racist.

But just because I think that the fundamental ideology of Israel is racist does not mean that I think that Israel should not be recognized, and also negotiated with. The same goes for Hamas, however much I disagree with their outlook.

quote:
You are allowed to think what you want. Including that it is no big deal that a party forming a government in a volatile part of the planet has a philosophy inspired in large part on those Protocols.


Oh and here I was thinking that the Hamas charter was inspired by th3e Qu'ran. My mistake.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 February 2006 10:42 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
Potato, potahto. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are no big deal when it comes to Hamas according to you. Lovely.

The Protocols


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 10:50 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you I have read that. You are spreading false history as much as the "Protocols" spread false history. Each is equally alarming.

It is minor piece of the document. It is intrapolated into the wider document, it is not the basis of the document, which is largley inspired by the Qu'ran, and informed by the Nakba, and 39 years of direct occupation. It is suprising that it is as reasonable as it is, frankly.

Or what is it that you think? Martin Borman carried Hitler's brain with him to Egypt, posing as Jewish DP. There in alliance with Nasser and Sadat, they then performed an operation on a young Ahmed Yassin, replacing his brain with Adolph's. The operation was not wholey successful however, and Yassin was crippled for life, yet HITLER's BRAIN WAS ALIVE!

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 11:09 AM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, from the exchange above...
quote:
It seems to me that Hamas is an armed terrorist group, and must be treated as such. They are unwilling to recognize an established UN member, Israel, and it seems to me that what Condi is doing is entirely appropriate.
Your reply...
quote:
This arguenment is patently absurd given that they are elcted to a body that recognized Israel's right to exist in 1989, and as such those commitments stand until such a time as the PA officially recinds that recognition. The PA is constituted on agreements between Israel and the PLO and as such is the party with which Israel negotiates, whomever is elected to run the PA.
It is not as if a government body automiatically recinds its previous agreements simply based on the election of a new party with different ideas.

Hmmm??? From Dr. Mahmud al-Zahar August 18, 2005
quote:
"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."
Later, on February 4, 2006, he says this..
quote:
"Israel is not a legitimate entitity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."
Someone else on the Hamas payroll has this to say,
quote:
"Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."
Cueball, you then state,
quote:
The point is not to defend Hamas. The point is to not misrepresent them.
Pretty shameful display, Cueball. The fact that Hamas disagrees with you (of all people?) apparently escapes you. Shameful.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 11:15 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And you presume the immutability of position, which is only hardened by overt persecution, as if to say Ariel Sharon would never openly state the possibility of a Palestinian state. Well he said he never would, and then he did, when the political environment changed.

Never leave Gaza. Then he did.

The PLO once had a very similar position to that of Hamas, but in a secular mode. This was not changed by assuming hardened and impossible negotiating positions, this was changed by leveraging the cracks in the wall.

This election is just such an opening where hardened positions can be encouraged to change, not by entrenchment of hardened positions and persecution:

quote:
The Kremlin has won backing from French Prime Minister Dominique Villepin, who on a recent visit told a Moscow radio station: "I hope that in the course of these meetings [with Putin], Hamas should recognize its responsibilities and the opportunity it is being offered. This is a very important moment; it is an historic choice for Hamas."


The Right Attitude

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 23 February 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think Inert Mass is on pretty thin ice here, setting up Hamas as if they represent some dangerous new paradigm rather than a reworking of existing strains which have blossomed after several years of Sharon's hothouse expansionism.

When will these uncritical defenders of everything Israeli realize that in Hamas they see only a reflection of the behaviour of the dominant partner in this tango, and a pretty pallid one at that. When Hamas get lots of tanks and gunships - and start using them - and make regular, heavily armed and murderous patrols into Israeli territory, regularly destroying crops and property, slowly choking off Zionist settlements in their midst, while steadily and systematically expanding their territory: then and only then will the Israeli state have engendered its opposite.

In the meantime all this whining alarmism about Hamas is just so much puke-inducing hypocrisy.


From: Dresden, Germany | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 February 2006 11:30 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
I've seen and read many absurd things.

Apparently, minimizing and explaining away the Hamas charter as "reasonable", and minimizing and explaining away the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in a joking fashion, is OK.

Thank you Cueball.

Lovely.

I think most of us here are intelligent enough and knowledgeable enough about 20th century history to draw the appropriate conclusions about your thinking. Once again thank you.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 11:36 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Critical Mass2:
I've seen and read many absurd things.

Apparently, minimizing and explaining away the Hamas charter as "reasonable", and minimizing and explaining away the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in a joking fashion, is OK.

Thank you Cueball.

Lovely.

I think most of us here are intelligent enough and knowledgeable enough about 20th century history to draw the appropriate conclusions about your thinking. Once again thank you.


Lets just focus one point of your lying here. The fact that you lie constabtly about what I say and don't say is indicative of your problem.

Please indicate where I said the Hamas position was "reasonable."

This is a complete fabrication of the kind which is invested in every single aspect of your discussion about this discussion.

Everything you say is more or less a lie.

Please indicate to me, where I said the Hamas position was "Reasonable."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Critical Mass2
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posted 23 February 2006 11:40 AM      Profile for Critical Mass2        Edit/Delete Post
P.S.Merowe, binary thinking is never very productive. Just because I oppose fundamentalist and openly anti-Semitic movements like Hamas inspired as they are quite explicitly in their very own constitution by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion does not mean I am "pro-Israeli", whatever that means.

Odd, isn't it? If one opposes Islamic fascists, somehow automatically one is supposed to support Sharon or settler movements? You're either for us or against us? George Bush says hello, I guess. That kind of thinking is just wrong, as the vast majority of us know.

Anyway, I'm done here. I can only conclude there is no use debating when so many who see no problem with movements that believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, the blueprint for genocide in Europe in the 1930s and 1940s.

My father warned me growing up: you will often see, he told me, that certain (hopefully unrepresentative) elements of the radical left and the radical right meet in their common delusions. That lesson has served me well. I can only share the thoughts of my father, in the hopes others will reach the same conclusions through their own life experiences.

Peace, kiddos.


From: AKA Critical Mass or Critical Mass3 - Undecided in Ottawa/Montreal | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Chicken shit liar. Just leave the slander hanging.

And you preach like a moralist, but you are full of shit.

Where did I say that the Hamas charter was "reasonable," as you stated that I did? It is a misrepresentation and is falacious slander.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 11:55 AM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Your point was that we should not misrepresent Hamas. You have done exactly that. Therefore, in my opinion, you have no point. Hamas continues to chart a course in a direction that will require overt outside involvement and pressure (no doubt in the future to be defined and accepted as heinous Western or non-Islamic or non-Arab meddling if not crass imperialism) for it to change positions. Implying that time and outside energies are required smacks of …… well, you can fill in the rest.

I have yet to see any evidence that Hamas will change on its own. Has anyone?


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 12:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
Your point was that we should not misrepresent Hamas. You have done exactly that. Therefore, in my opinion, you have no point. Hamas continues to chart a course in a direction that will require overt outside involvement and pressure (no doubt in the future to be defined and accepted as heinous Western or non-Islamic or non-Arab meddling if not crass imperialism) for it to change positions. Implying that time and outside energies are required smacks of …… well, you can fill in the rest.

I have yet to see any evidence that Hamas will change on its own. Has anyone?


Where did I misrepresent Hamas? My main point has been that the Hamas Charter does not call for ethnic cleansing, which has been asserted repeatedly. I did not say that it is not call for war against Israel (the state) which clearly it is. I even said that it had antisemitic content, etc. etc.

But it is not a call fot the extermination of the Jews ala Mein Kampf.

None of the statements you have provided suggest otherwise.

What I also estbalished was that regardless of whether or not the Hamas charter does not recognize Israel, Israel does not negotiate with Hamas, it negotiates with the PA, and that is what is politcally relevant in terms of negotiating positions. The PA does recognize Israel's right to exist and such is what is pertinent up until the time that Hamas passes legislation rescinding that recongintion.

Nor do I think that Hamas will pass such legislation, they like too much being able to be apparently tough on one side, but being able to manouver on the other. It would just be plain silly to act otherwise. This way they can play to their hardline base as Hamas, while at the same time bathing in international recognition as the leadership of the PA.

In fact if the PA were to recind its recognition of Israel, the PA might even lose its observer status at the UN, any right to outside funding, etcetera as the PA's internationally reconginzed mandate is founded on an explicit recognition of Israel.

Such a move is highly dounbtful, but not beyond possibility. Preassuring Hamas by attempting to cut the PA of from its international status will actually increase the likelyhood that Hamas will officially break the recognition that the PA is based on, as when the PA is completely isolated in this fashion, it will have nothing to lose by rescinding the recognition.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Hamas, on its own, has stated, repeatedly, that recognition of Isreal is “not on its agenda”, that peaceful dialogue is ‘a waste of time’ and that any initiatives toward any understanding are ‘contrary to the (religious) beliefs’ of the organization. As recently as February 4th of this year, a leading member of hamas has stated that ‘no amount of pressure can force us to recognize (Israel’s) right to exist’ with others saying that for the next four years they will ‘place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel’.
You say that they have little choice but to accept agreements made by the previous secular government who, in the eyes of religious hamas, was corrupt, not just for the graft but also for its continued dialogue with Israel. You want me to believe that once in office and leading the PA they will cast aside all the jihad mumbojumbo, embrace man-made laws that recognize their enemies and abandon any religious motivation within their movement……. because to do otherwise would be ‘silly’.

And to top it off, the standard of ‘reasonable’ is, everything else aside, whether one does or doesn’t call for ethnic cleansing.

Do you have any evidence emanating from hamas or its leaders to suggest that, on their own and without outside pressure, they agree with your interpretation of their domestic and international obligations?

Sad.


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 23 February 2006 02:10 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
Israel doesn't WANT anything from Hamas apart for recognition and cessation of violent resistance. The PLO's experience shows that once these preconditions are attained, Israel loses all interest in negotiating.

So, Hamas is going to keep it's powder dry. If Israel wants to be recognised, it'll have to be in the conext of a comprehensive settlement, or not at all.

Hamas has repeatedly signalled that such an outcome is possible, if Israel cared to bargain for it. Israel has repeatedly signalled that it doesn't.

Israel wants the palestinians to give up their only bargaining chips in exchange for the privilege of hearing Israel say "no!" at the bargaining table. That doesn't seem like such a good deal to Hamas.

So who's being unreasonable?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 02:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, you agree then that I did not misrepresent Hamas's position. Furthermore, my statement was not that I thought that Hamas's position was "Reasonable," but that I was suprised at how "reasonable it was" given the history.

Such is not saying that it is "reasonable" but that it could be far more unreasonalble. As such CM2's statement was direct slander.

Well if Hamas is all about the Allah thing, why did they run Christians?

Obviously, Hamas has a sense that it does not simply represent some god given mission, but also that it intends to represent the Palestinian community as a whole, and does so knowing that the spectrum of beliefs in that community runs the gamut, and that more than 50% of Palestinians opposed its election.

It has time and time again negotiated with the PA when it was run by the PLO, and time and time again agreed to 'cease-fires' at the request of the PA.

Even running in the election was an tacit acceptance of the PA constitution, which reconizes Israel, and a softening of the their long term position against becoming directly involved in PA politics, a postion they held because becoming involved in PA politcs was an recognition of Israel.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 02:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BTW: you want to get some source links for those statement from anonymous Hamas people.

For one thing the one talking about the "four year period" seems actually to be saying that they are demphazizing the destruction of Israel for their term in office (four years,) yet that it is still part of their long term objective.

Read it again:

quote:
"Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. Had we spoken (Note: past tense, suggesting that the destruction of Israel was not mentioned in the platform) of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."

This seems to be completely opposite to your summary above, which was:

quote:
As recently as February 4th of this year, a leading member of hamas has stated that ‘no amount of pressure can force us to recognize (Israel’s) right to exist’ with others saying that for the next four years they will ‘place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel’.

Hamas says the opposite, from your source.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 02:27 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, you agree then that I did not misrepresent Hamas's position.
Not one bit.
quote:
Furthermore, my statement was not that I thought that Hamas's position was "Reasonable," but that I was suprised at how "reasonable it was" given the history.
Whatever.
quote:
Well if Hamas is all about the Allah thing, why did they run Christians?
Irrelevant.
quote:
Obviously, Hamas has a sense that it does not simply represent some god given mission, but also that it intends to represent the Palestinian community as a whole, and does so knowing that the spectrum of beliefs in that community runs the gamut, and that more than 50% of Palestinians opposed its election.
Hello Sharia, is that you?
quote:
It has time and time again negotiated with the PA when it was run by the PLO, and time and time again agreed to 'cease-fires' at the request of the PA.
Irrelevant.
quote:
Even running in the election was an tacit acceptance of the PA constitution
No it wasn't.
quote:
which reconizes Israel,
Debatable given Arafat's meddling and need for money.
quote:
and a softening of the their long term position against becoming directly involved in PA politics, a postion they held because becoming involved in PA politcs was an recognition of Israel.
A softening they just can't seem to articulate with words or deeds.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But it is you who is misrepresenting the Hamas position. It is you who is saying that Hamas is placing emphasis on the destruction of Israel, when the source you have quoted is saying that such was not even in the four year platform.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
"Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."Salah Al-Bardawil, Hamas candidate for Palestinian Legislative Council IslamOnline, January 14, 2006
From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 02:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now where did I misrepresent the Hamas plaform?

Quote me in contradiction to them, please. Quit repeating the slander.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 02:34 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."
Clear now.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 02:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
"Hamas has never proposed to change or amend its charter [calling for the destruction of Israel]. The platform presents a realistic view that reflects Hamas's goals for the next four years. Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."Salah Al-Bardawil, Hamas candidate for Palestinian Legislative Council IslamOnline, January 14, 2006


Read this please.

What do you not understand about the phrase "Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period..." It means we did not speak about the destruction of Israel as part of our four year plan.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 23 February 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's as comforting as Stephen Harper claiming that his party has the goal of repealing suffrage for women, criminalizing abortion and stopping all immigration, but they probably won't do so in the next 4 years.

Whew! I can be proud to be Canadian again! Did you hear that, everyone? He's not gonna do it, he's just gonna talk about it and support it and maybe even lay groundwork for it, but for the next four years, it's all good!


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 03:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True enough I suppose but then Jack Layton likes to talk about working with "all parties" and making "the government work," and the NDP has criticized the Liberals for talking "a hard line" with the Tories yadda yadda. So what does that get you?

Call Jack and tell him to toughen up on old Stevie, why don't you? Perhaps the NDP should try and prevent Tories from taking their seats and do a sit in at the treasury so that the no funding gets through to run the government.

Besides the issue here is not whether or not I support the Hamas platoform or not, but the fact that I do not think it should be misrepresented by hystrical distortions.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
That's as comforting as Stephen Harper claiming that his party has the goal of repealing suffrage for women, criminalizing abortion and stopping all immigration, but they probably won't do so in the next 4 years.
Bingo!
quote:
Besides the issue here is not whether or not I support the Hamas platoform or not, but the fact that I do not think it should be misrepresented by hystrical distortions.
hysterical?
quote:
Lets just focus one point of your lying here. The fact that you lie constabtly about what I say and don't say is indicative of your problem.
Please indicate where I said the Hamas position was "reasonable."
This is a complete fabrication of the kind which is invested in every single aspect of your discussion about this discussion.
Everything you say is more or less a lie.
Please indicate to me, where I said the Hamas position was "Reasonable."

Get over yourself.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 03:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am glad we have resolved the issue of your misrepresentation suggesting that Hamas is putting its emphasis on the destruction of Israel over the next four yeasrs, when they have said the complete opposite, BCNdpr's contension that the Hamas charter is a plan for ethnic cleansing, when it says no such thing, and CM2's contension that Hamas charter are "largely inspired by Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and not the Qu'ran.

Yes. Hysterical distortions.

Now, please quote me (I know you know how to use the HTML tags,) and show how anything I have said misrepresents either the truth or statements by Hamas.

This does not include the kind of conjecctural summaries of my views that CM2 seems to think can fill in for facts.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
BC NDPer
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posted 23 February 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for BC NDPer   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I stand by it, but note, in response to...
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I think all of this is may be the lead up to the final ethnic cleansing. This time Palestinians will once again choose to abandon their homes, for fear of privation and possible starvation.
[ 22 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]

I'm glad we're all agreed NOW that the Hamas Charter is relevant when other countries decide how to react to the new PA government. Whether or not Cueball supports the Hamas Charter is an open question, but we do know he equates Hamas with Zionism.


From: Yes | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 03:49 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I am glad we have resolved the issue of your misrepresentation suggesting that Hamas is putting its emphasis on the destruction of Israel over the next four yeasrs, BCNdpr's contension that the Hamas charter is a plan for ethnic cleansing, when it says no such thing, and CM2's contension that Hamas charter are "largely inspired by Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and not the Qu'ran.
Not even close.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 03:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aboslutely, I see the philosophies as essentially the same except inverted, and as the Israeli citizen, Ran Hacohen articulates in the article I provided for you above that you did not read because you are more interested in mouthing off.

Your lack of interest in reading is probably the reason that most of what you say is so far distanced from what you are saying you are responding too. And this is not just the case here, and with me, but with most things you post.

You were even unable to distinguish between the use of the proper noun "Israel" and a noun, such as "gay." Here is a hint for the future, proper nouns start with capital letters, other nouns do not.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
Not even close.

Well it is really hard to take you seriously, when it was plainly obvious to Magoo that your interpretation of the paragraph regarding Hamas's four year plan was simply wrong.

Nice now that you have decided that your original distortion, which you defended for quite a number of posts is no longer relevant point, in favour of the larger point, something which I grant you may interpret as you will and don't really object to, as at least now you are speaking from the factual record of what was said, and not your personal delusions.

But it remains a fact that you did not read even your own source material with any attention to detail, so there is no reason to suspect that you have read anything on this thread with any greater attention.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 23 February 2006 04:02 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
Would a thread suggesting a plan to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil by harnessing the awesome power of Cueball's infinite supply of hot air be more appropriate in Humanities and Science or the Middle Eastern forum?

Now if we could also figure out a way to produce electricity from all that spinning...


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 23 February 2006 04:03 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
It should be noted that destruction does not have to mean mass death. I'd like to Isreal and all states destroyed. Destroy can be symbolic, the ANC wanted to destroy white south africa for instance, however white people are still alive. Israel is more or less the latest incarnate of what Cecil Rhodes and people like him wanted to do. The difference is Jewish nationalism is argued from a context of slave morality. It's easy to harpoon the nazies from their mastering postition, but the resentfull fools on the otherside deserve just as much venom as people like Fred Perlman argue. I myself have seen the results of black nationalism by my experiance in Barbados and with the West Indies, needless to say I don't like it.

What is unique about Jewish culture is that there has always been a strong sense of otherness which in the 19th and early 20th century was actually the dominant agency amoung Jewish people. Stanley Diamond and Ziggy Baumaunt have pointed this out. Diamond makes the point that Zionism is anti-semitism against jewish people by jewish people. Ziggy made a similar point by saying they suceeded in having the world turn against them.

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Vigilante ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 04:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
Would a thread suggesting a plan to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil by harnessing the awesome power of Cueball's infinite supply of hot air be more appropriate in Humanities and Science or the Middle Eastern forum?

Now if we could also figure out a way to produce electricity from all that spinning...


Have you been working on this for a while?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:
It should be noted that destruction does not have to mean mass death. I'd like to Isreal and all states destroyed. Destroy can be symbolic, the ANC wanted to destroy white south africa for instance, however white people are still alive. Isreal is more or less the latest incarnate of what Cecil Rhodes and people like him wanted to do. The difference is Jewish nationalism is argued from a context of slave morality. It's easy to harpoon the nazies from their mastering postition, but the resentfull fools on the otherside deserve just as much venom and people like Fred Perlman argue. I myself have seen the results of black nationalism by my experiance in Barbadoes and with the West Indies, needless to say I don't like it.

What is unique about Jewish culture is that there has always been a strong sense of otherness which in the 19th and early 20th century was actually the dominant agency amoung Jewish people. Stanley Diamond and Ziggy Baumaunt have pointed this out. Diamond makes the point that Zionism is anti-semitism against jewish people by jewish people. Ziggy made a similar point by saying they suceeded in having the world turn against them.


Baumaunt is brilliant. Far an away superior to the drivel that gets propounded as analysis here by some. Don't expect anyone to read it though. He's only a world famous Holocaust Scholar, whom won the Jerusalem prize.

Well he was more popular it is true, before he added that epilogue to "Modernity and the Holocaust" about the butchery Israelis have done to Palestinians.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 04:41 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Had we spoken of eliminating and eradicating Israel within this period, we would have been deceiving our people and repeating false slogans. But this does not stand in contradiction [to the fact that] we place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel."
The (only) quote in question.
My interpretation (and no doubt what the dude meant)
"If we spoke of this (our unchanged position that Israel is to be destroyed) during the campaign (or during the first four years of our rule, whichever) we would have lost our appeal and alienated those voters who don't necessarily agree with us. We need to get into power and stay in power and will say anything to do it. We need the street behind us. These necessary voters would see that we had not changed our murderous ways and that our calls for the elimination of corruption and the need to focus on the domestic issues were the shams they have always been. But don't worry. Regardless of what we say, whether during the campaign or the next four years, or whenever, our goal remains the destruction of Israel. We are hamas. How could it not be"
Precicely why I said, "others saying that for the next four years they will 'place emphasis on the elimination and non-recognition of Israel"
Perhaps you should take up your concern with hysterical misrepresentation with Mr. Al-Bardawil.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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Babbler # 10408

posted 23 February 2006 04:49 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
What do you mean by "complete disaster"?
Well, it's really not hard to imagine. For one, the U.S. and Israel have already taken a very hard line against the Hamas win.

The main concerns I see are A: will they continue to even work with a Hamas dominated parliament (or would a Hamas government even listen)? and B: will this Hamas dominated parliament have an affinity for any radical legislation or policy?

This piece of legislation and the court it creates helps to provide some guarantee of at least a degree of moderation from the Hamas parliament - it can't enact any crazy laws - and perhaps will help make the U.S. and Israel more willing to work with it.

quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
What an act of parliament gives, parliament can take away. The first act of the new parliament should be to strike down the new law.
Then it appears that you don't understand what a constitutional court is or how it works.

From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 04:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are of course free to inetrapolate, inter-interperet, analyze, and otherwise summarize what you believe the dude intended to mean, and attach whatever motive you wish to that.

But there is a difference between your conjectures as to what he means and the fact of what he said.

He in fact said that they demphasized the non-recognition for the four year platform, not emphasized it, as you original asserted. And in fact your somewhat torturous conjectures, actually fly right in the face of your statement that Hamas is "openly" brandishing its non-recognition position, because now you are saying that the person quoted is lying in order to hide the real meaning of his statement.

So, now that we have cleared up your misrepresenation perhaps you will quote something I have said which is in contradiction with the public record as to Hamas's position, or have you given up on that?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 05:04 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
So, now that we have cleared up your misrepresenation perhaps you will quote something I have said which is in contradiction with the public record as to Hamas's position, or have you given up on that?


No, I've only given up on you.

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 05:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks! And to think I avoided calling you out that "Arabs always lie" trope, because I actually thought maybe you had a point.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
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posted 23 February 2006 05:16 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Thanks! And to think I avoided calling you out that "Arabs always lie" trope, because I actually thought maybe you had a point.
Yeah, playing the race card. Perhaps, apart from hanging on that one quote (no doubt a comment translated into english, in light of all the potential pitfalls of doing so, as you have so effortlessly hung on to in the past) you could comment on the other points I brought up. If not.....

From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 February 2006 05:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geeze, now you want to talk about mistranslation.

Think the translator mistranslated the part about the Protocols of the Elders of Zion too? Or do mistranslations only occur when Hamas representatives say things that don't fit within your preconcieved notions of what they should be saying?

As for your other points, I see no reason to treat them "seriously" after you dismissed my complex analysis of the present Hamas position in relation to the PA, with cursory one word dismissals, "irrelevant" and such.

What basis for discussion is that. But if you will, reread what I wrote about Hamas and the PA, and construe that as my rebuttal. Why repeat it?

I'll just quote it:

quote:
Well if Hamas is all about the Allah thing, why did they run Christians?

Obviously, Hamas has a sense that it does not simply represent some god given mission, but also that it intends to represent the Palestinian community as a whole, and does so knowing that the spectrum of beliefs in that community runs the gamut, and that more than 50% of Palestinians opposed its election.

It has time and time again negotiated with the PA when it was run by the PLO, and time and time again agreed to 'cease-fires' at the request of the PA.

Even running in the election was an tacit acceptance of the PA constitution, which reconizes Israel, and a softening of the their long term position against becoming directly involved in PA politics, a postion they held because becoming involved in PA politcs was an recognition of Israel.


[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 23 February 2006 07:05 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Baumaunt is brilliant. Far an away superior to the drivel that gets propounded as analysis here by some. Don't expect anyone to read it though. He's only a world famous Holocaust Scholar, whom won the Jerusalem prize.


I think you mean Zygmunt Bauman. No?

Edited due to ironic misspelling...

[ 23 February 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 23 February 2006 07:10 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_Jay:
Then it appears that you don't understand what a constitutional court is or how it works.

I certainly do, but the act of parliament--which awards the president sole authority to appoint the court--can be amended by parliament, just as it was passed by one.

A constitutional change of that significance cannot be seen as legitimate if hastily passed at the last minute by a lame-duck parliament.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
caoimhin
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 February 2006 08:53 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...my complex analysis
oh, please. Don't make me choke on my own bile. Ran Hacohen as your go to guy? You haven't taken a thing I've said seriously in this whole serve and volley apart from the double speak of a hamas leader.
quote:
...things that don't fit within your preconcieved notions of what they should be saying?
"Neither the liberation of the Gaza Strip nor the liberation of the West Bank or even Jerusalem will suffice us. Hamas will pursue the armed struggle until the liberation of all our lands. We don't recognize the state of Israel or its right to hold onto one inch of Palestine. Palestine is an Islamic land belonging to all the Muslims."

"Israel is not a legitimate entitity, and no amount of pressure can force us to recognize its right to exist."

preconceived notions? what they should be saying? What??????

How about a basis of discussion that takes into account the actual words of the people we are talking about? Too hard? okay. fine. night.


From: Windsor | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 February 2006 11:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Here is what Hamas says and doesn't say. (Double speak)

Their Arabic Site:
(note the cute flash animation of the star of David being nuked. But I'm sure it's just sophistry.)

Hamas Military Wing Web site

And the English Site, which is designed to appear much more "moderate" in keeping with their cloaked identity of a militant "resistance" group.

Hamas English Site

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 February 2006 11:53 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Judge Not By only what they say, but what they Do:

quote:
Hamas helping militant groups carry out Qassam attacks
By Ze'ev Schiff, Haaretz Correspondent

Hamas activists may not be actively launching Qassam rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip, but they are providing assistance to militants from other groups who are carrying out such attacks.

Most of the rocket fire is being carried out by Islamic Jihad activists, activists from Fatah's Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and members of local factions such as the Popular Resistance Committees.

For all intents and purposes, Hamas has been in control of the northern branch of the PRC over the past few months. Since the Palestinian elections, the movement has not been involved in the Qassam rocket fire, but has provided direct assistance to the PRC.

Prior to the elections and despite an agreement on the "period of calm," Hamas played an active role in the rocket attacks, with military officials estimating that the movement was responsible for nearly 20 percent of all Qassams fired at Israel last year.



Hamas helping carry out missile attacks


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 February 2006 12:10 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
For one, the U.S. and Israel have already taken a very hard line against the Hamas win.
The main concerns I see are A: will they continue to even work with a Hamas dominated parliament (or would a Hamas government even listen)? and B: will this Hamas dominated parliament have an affinity for any radical legislation or policy?

This piece of legislation and the court it creates helps to provide some guarantee of at least a degree of moderation from the Hamas parliament - it can't enact any crazy laws - and perhaps will help make the U.S. and Israel more willing to work with it.


I still don't see how you get to a disater, what the disaster could be, and who would be the source of such a disaster.

And why do you assume Hamas would make a "crazy law"? What would such a law look like?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 12:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Judge Not By only what they say, but what they Do:


Hamas helping carry out missile attacks



Yes I know the fireworks displays. How many have been killed?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
rabble-rouser
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posted 24 February 2006 12:29 AM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
I certainly do, but the act of parliament--which awards the president sole authority to appoint the court--can be amended by parliament, just as it was passed by one.
And an amendment can also just as easily be struck down by the court. The point of having a constitutional court in the first place is to be superior to the legislature.
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:A constitutional change of that significance cannot be seen as legitimate if hastily passed at the last minute by a lame-duck parliament.
Yes, legitimacy can certainly be an issue - but that's mostly going to be determined by the court's actions in the near future, rather than the hasty nature of its creation. As long as it is reserved and cautious about the battles it chooses to fight (rather than trying to strike down everything that comes out of a Hamas-led parliament), Hamas will have no choice but to go along with it.

From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 01:03 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes I know the fireworks displays. How many have been killed?

Cue:
Have you eer considered standup? If it were Israel firing rockets it would be "state terrorism". But if it's Hamas it's mere fireworks. LOL. Stop it,you're killing me!
quote:
Despite recent concerted efforts by the Israel Defense Forces to curtail rocket fire from the Strip, Qassam attacks have significantly increased recently. At least 130 Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip fell in Israeli territory in January - more than double the 64 that landed in Israel in December 2005.
The current Qassam rockets have a range of just over 11 kilometers, but militants are working to increase this. For some time, Hamas has been trying to smuggle in Russian Grad rockets, which have a 24-kilometer range. Such rockets would be able to reach the Ashkelon power station and other strategic targets within Israel.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 01:11 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Andrew_Jay:
And an amendment can also just as easily be struck down by the court.

...thereby provoking a constitutional crisis that the legislature would win, being the sole body with any legitimacy or mandate.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 February 2006 01:53 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Here is what Hamas says and doesn't say. (Double speak)

Their Arabic Site:
(note the cute flash animation of the star of David being nuked. But I'm sure it's just sophistry.)


How's that any different from Hulk Hogan ripping up the Soviet flag before (or after) a wrestling match in the mid-1980s? It's the same level of disrespect for a national symbol, and the same silly pandering to nationalism to rouse fervor among the audience.

Oh, but it's just fine and dandy when white people do it, and it isn't indicative of any murderous impulses in any random white person, right?

But lo and behold! The nuke on the Star of David on the Hamas website means every single brown-skinned guy out there wants to suicide-bomb Israel, right? Come on, don't deny it. We're conditioned to think like that in Western society because of the way the media portrays Arabs to begin with - as inherently violent, savage people.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagnaf
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posted 24 February 2006 03:33 AM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:

How's that any different from Hulk Hogan ripping up the Soviet flag before (or after) a wrestling match in the mid-1980s? It's the same level of disrespect for a national symbol, and the same silly pandering to nationalism to rouse fervor among the audience.

Oh, but it's just fine and dandy when white people do it, and it isn't indicative of any murderous impulses in any random white person, right?

But lo and behold! The nuke on the Star of David on the Hamas website means every single brown-skinned guy out there wants to suicide-bomb Israel, right? Come on, don't deny it. We're conditioned to think like that in Western society because of the way the media portrays Arabs to begin with - as inherently violent, savage people.


Hulk Hogan did not equal the United States or any other nation. This is a Hamas web site -- and Hamas is now the Palestinian government. Big, big difference; it's now part of the Palestinian foreign policy.


From: Alberta | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 10:09 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, just to recap:

It's OK to reference the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in your charter, so long as it only represents "a little bit" of that charter, and as long as the international community is "pretty sure" you don't really mean it deep down.

It's OK to indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, so long as you refer to said rockets as "fireworks".

It's OK to show a nuclear mushroom cloud destroying the Star of David because back in the 1980's an American wrestler used to rip up a Soviet flag and it's exactly the same thing.

Anything else?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 24 February 2006 10:18 AM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You forgot "Any violent Palestinian response to the Iraeli occupation is, by definition, indefensible."
From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 24 February 2006 10:19 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It's the same level of disrespect for a national symbol, and the same silly pandering to nationalism to rouse fervor among the audience.

The star of david is just a "national symbol"? So when I see people with a pendant of the star around their neck it means they're Isreali?

Go back to bed Conway.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:25 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh poor boys!!! What about "freedom of speech?"
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
So, just to recap:

It's OK to reference the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in your charter, so long as it only represents "a little bit" of that charter, and as long as the international community is "pretty sure" you don't really mean it deep down.

It's OK to indiscriminately fire rockets into populated areas, so long as you refer to said rockets as "fireworks".

It's OK to show a nuclear mushroom cloud destroying the Star of David because back in the 1980's an American wrestler used to rip up a Soviet flag and it's exactly the same thing.

Anything else?


You seem a little bit more up to date on these issues than Peech. I asked how many people have been killed by Quassam toy rockets?

Lets take a look at yon hich tech machine of mass destruction;


The Engineering finesse is astounding don't you think. How do you think they are targetted, by spotters in Balloons?

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 10:30 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They're playing with toys? What? Are they kids? Isn't anyone going to tell them they're using toys that are incapable of killing anyone?

quote:
What about "freedom of speech?"

True. I'll bet the bomb that blows up the Star of David is the one from Mohammed's turban.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look at that rocket Magoo.

When is the Israeli government going to demand that each and every single Palestinian child pass out of his grade school class by writing out an affidavit renoucing violence, and recognizing Israel's right to exist.

Of course the Israelis can murder. When is Israel going to renounce violence?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:38 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

A Monty Python Sketch? No an actual picture of the 2nd Islamofacist "Fist of God" Rocket Artillery Battery.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:51 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Check the adavanced telemetry!

Two rocket launched and within a meter of the ground they are going in almost completely different directions! Or is it that their lap-top Windows NT based (Balloon assisted) targetting system is designed to engage multiple targets at once?

Where are they going Tel Aviv and the other Jerusalem?

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 10:55 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dude, that's just the smoke. A minute later it had probably blown a quarter mile downwind.

Anyway, what you seem to be suggesting is that if you see some kids dropping cinder blocks off an overpass it's not really a problem as long as they haven't hit any cars yet.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 11:01 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
BS. The wind blows both trails in exactly the same direction, at the same speed. They should be next to each other and have roughly the same vector, despite wind conditions. By the top of the photp the trails are many meters apart.

Again, you seem to be up on this. How many people have been killed by these in the last 5 years?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the answer is that since 2004, 6 Israelis have been killed by such rockets. It is the blitz all over again.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 24 February 2006 11:33 AM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Oh poor boys!!! What about "freedom of speech?"

I fully support Hulk Hogan's right to tear up a Soviet flag.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 11:41 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But not the right of Arabs to nuke the Israeli one. I know. Its called a double standard. Double standards are usually the reeult of bias.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 February 2006 12:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:
The star of david is just a "national symbol"? So when I see people with a pendant of the star around their neck it means they're Isreali?

Go back to bed Conway.


Spare me your religious panegyrics. I'm an atheist.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 12:14 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or they're the result of Hulk Hogan not being the government of a country.

I support your right to, if you wished, spit on a veteran's grave. I'd be considerably more concerned if Stephen Harper were to do it.

How laughable is it that Hamas is being directly compared with a campy "wrestler" from the 1980's?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 February 2006 12:17 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Obviously, none of you bothered to see the point. The fact that it was considered acceptable, even applause-worthy, to desecrate the Soviet flag in the 1980s before national television and a packed stadium, was a direct result of a hostile environment in which official US government policy was that Commies Are Bad.

It is precisely the same poisonous atmosphere that colors relations between Arabic groups such as Hamas and the Israeli government. I'd be willing to bet the Israeli flag's been burned before, too.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 24 February 2006 12:43 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Double standards are usually the reeult of bias

I know. And that would explain why you think nothing of a cartoon of the star of david getting nuked, but get your panties in a bunch over a drawing of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban.


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagnaf
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posted 24 February 2006 01:15 PM      Profile for lagnaf        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I think the answer is that since 2004, 6 Israelis have been killed by such rockets. It is the blitz all over again.

And those six Israelis don't matter? Your anti-Semitism is hitting new highs, CB.

I'm wondering what the reaction would be if Harper and his band of bigots put the image of a Palestinian flag getting nuked on conservative.ca? Would everyone be so accepting then?

(It's a rhetorical question, by the way; we all know what the reaction would be)


From: Alberta | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 01:27 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course six Israelis matter. Why do you think they were killed?

And that is a rhetorical question as well, but at least it expresess moral complexity.

As for the idea that killing 6 israeli's by people who may or may not be under the nominal control of the party that is now the government somehow justifies trying to starve 3 milliion people to death, well I can only say that your sense of proportionality is extreme.

So much as to say do 6 people count more than 3 million?

As if to say, using one of Magoo's silly allergories, does the fact that one person dropped a stone off a highway overpass and killed an onnocent person in Toronto, does that mean that the Government of Canada should cut off federal transfer payments, because the person who dropped the stone, also may have belonged to the Liberal party of Ontario?

So much as to say, is Israel going to demand that ever single Palestinian to sign a waiver stating that they "recognize Israel's right to exist," and renounce violence, before they meet there own commitments and negotiate a peaceful settlement with the PA, which does, as of this writing, still recognize Israel's right to exist?

The fact is that it is Israel not Hamas which is breaking its commitment to the PA.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:

I know. And that would explain why you think nothing of a cartoon of the star of david getting nuked, but get your panties in a bunch over a drawing of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban.


No. I reject both. Where did I defend the Hamas drawing?

Point to my defence of it? I was simply pointing out that it was the same shit, which you defend in the case of the Danish Cartoons, the Hulk Hogan attack upon the USSR, but not in the case of case of the Hamas drawing.

So where did I defend it? Quote me!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 01:43 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As if to say, using one of Magoo's silly allergories, does the fact that one person dropped a stone off a highway overpass and killed an onnocent person in Toronto, does that mean that the Government of Canada should cut off federal transfer payments, because the person who dropped the stone, also may have belonged to the Liberal party of Ontario?

If that person was, in fact a member of the Liberal Party, and did this on behalf of the Liberal Party, with the full support of the Liberal Party and in keeping with the published aims of the Liberal Party, I suspect we'd have plenty to say about it.

Doncha think?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 01:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No. because Hamas has been officially and quite effectively adhering to a unilateral ceasefire for the past six months. If it is the case that some Hamas people have broken ranks, and acted byond their authority, then that is not the same as the cease-fire being abrogated by Hamas.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 24 February 2006 01:48 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
No. I reject both. Where did I defend the Hamas drawing?

Point to my defence of it? I was simply pointing out that it was the same shit, which you defend in the case of the Danish Cartoons, the Hulk Hogan attack upon the USSR, but not in the case of case of the Hamas drawing.


Where did you reject it? Where did I say you defended it? I said you didn't think much of it. And why would I think that? Hundreds of posts wringing your hands over the 'cartoons' but not a peep about a Hamas animation of the star of david getting nuked.

So where did I say you defended it? Where did I "defend" the Danish cartoons (I admit I defend the right to publish them - which should not be construed as an approval of their content - though I do like the donkey one).

QUOTE ME!!!!


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 01:51 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
Israel is at war, and illegally occupying another nation. Why shouldnt Hamas--or any other palestinian body--fire rockets?

If Israel wants peace, they could make peace. They want to be at war, clearly. Crying over the casualties of that war is enormously hypocritical. That's what happens in war.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 01:53 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
The Danish Comics and the Hamas web site animation are apples and oranges. The Danish one caricatures Mohamed with a bomb=political commentary that (some) Muslims are terrorists. While I disagree with that comment, I do support freedom of expression that is not = to hate.
The Star of David being nuked = a call for the irradiation of all Jews. Therefore = hate.Where's the common thread? ZERO!

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 01:56 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hamas people have broken ranks, and acted byond their authority

Ah yes. Loose cannons. Like at Abu Ghraib. Individuals acting outside the established boundaries. *winky-wink*

quote:
Why shouldnt Hamas--or any other palestinian body--fire rockets?

Same reason they shouldn't lay landmines. Indiscriminate killing of civilians and all that. The phrase "All's fair in love and war" got superceded by the Geneva Convention.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 01:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by worker_drone:

Where did you reject it? Where did I say you defended it? I said you didn't think much of it. And why would I think that? Hundreds of posts wringing your hands over the 'cartoons' but not a peep about a Hamas animation of the star of david getting nuked.

So where did I say you defended it? Where did I "defend" the Danish cartoons (I admit I defend the right to publish them - which should not be construed as an approval of their content - though I do like the donkey one).

QUOTE ME!!!!


Ok, then perhaps we agree that all three are bad.

Silence is not an indication of support. Nor is the quantity of interest.

Absolutely falacious reasoning especially as the hundreds of posts about the cartoons are spread over a period of weeks, and the cartoons themselves are a major international issue. Whereas the issue of the Hamas cartoon was only raised today, and has had little international impact.

What would you like from me, to start a thread and then write a duplicate post saying: I condemn the Hamas cartoon, as it appears on the Arabic version of their website" over and over again? Is that what you would like?

This is an argument? Really? You are applying your full intelect to this discussion?

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 01:57 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
Israel is at war, and illegally occupying another nation. Why shouldnt Hamas--or any other palestinian body--fire rockets?

If Israel wants peace, they could make peace. They want to be at war, clearly. Crying over the casualties of that war is enormously hypocritical. That's what happens in war.



No. The Palestinians are at war with Israel, and Israel has acquired land in which the Palestinians happen to live as a rsult of previous wars with 3rd parties. Now they want "their" land back, want jobs in Israel, want Israel to give them money, but refuse to:
recognize Israel and call for its destruction, while carrying out terrorist acts.
Makes sense to me.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 02:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
The Danish Comics and the Hamas web site animation are apples and oranges. The Danish one caricatures Mohamed with a bomb=political commentary that (some) Muslims are terrorists. While I disagree with that comment, I do support freedom of expression that is not = to hate.
The Star of David being nuked = a call for the irradiation of all Jews. Therefore = hate.Where's the common thread? ZERO!


Very convenient then that Israel should choose the Star of David as the symbol of nationhood. This way any attack upon this symbol as the national symbol of Israel is an attack on all Jews.

Perhaps making a "Jewish State" wasn't such a hot idea.

Perhaps there would have been less problems here, has not some people not insisted on unifying the concepts of religion and state over a piece of territory that was multi-ethnic and mulit-cultural.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 02:06 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Come on Cue when are you going to wake up and smell the coffee?
quote:
THE HAMAS CHARTER
("Hamas" = "Harakat Muqawama Islamiyya", Islamic Resistance Movement)

Preamble:..."Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." The Imam and Martyr Hasan al-Banna

Introduction: "...This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: "Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messengers, lo! Allah is strong, almighty."
Sura 58 (Al-Mujadilah), verse 21.


[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 02:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Right, well it is Israel that insisted on coflating its state with Jewishness. It was the Arabs that originally demanded a multi-ethnic state, and the PLO which championed this cause. Too bad you blew it, and insisted on a religious construction of the politcal in liu of a secular construction.

Monkey see, monkey do.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hamas Charter

quote:

Article Seven - THE UNIVERSALITY OF HAMAS

..Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said:

"The time will not come until Muslims wwill fight the Jews (and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!
Cited by Bukhari and Muslim"



From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 02:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You are saying that the leaders of Hamas believe that rocks and trees will talk to them?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 02:15 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

No. The Palestinians are at war with Israel, and Israel has acquired land in which the Palestinians happen to live as a rsult of previous wars with 3rd parties.

It is not possible to legally acquire land through war--that's a fundamental law, contained in the United nations charter. The United Nations which, of course, Israel claims as it's source of legitimacy.

If you are illegally in posession of territory, that's occupation. Which is a state of war.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 02:30 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You are saying that the leaders of Hamas believe that rocks and trees will talk to them?

Cue you should change your handle to Cute.
No HAMAS is saying they want to kill all Jews.
It's in their constitution and the cute animation on their web site only confirms it.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 February 2006 02:38 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You are saying that the leaders of Hamas believe that rocks and trees will talk to them?

What's with the rocks and trees? Anybody who thinks rocks and trees talk is officially barmy.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 02:38 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
It is not possible to legally acquire land through war--that's a fundamental law, contained in the United nations charter. The United Nations which, of course, Israel claims as it's source of legitimacy.If you are illegally in possession of territory, that's occupation. Which is a state of war.

A middle East history refresher is in order:
History of 1967 War
The Palestinians and Israelis were NOT at war. Palestinians were victims of the war and displaced by it. THEY are now at war against Israel. Yet somehow Hamas now wants "its land" back without negotiation. Makes complete (non)sense. BTW Israel doesn't "claim" its legitimacy from the UN it was created by the UN.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Cue you should change your handle to Cute.
No HAMAS is saying they want to kill all Jews.
It's in their constitution and the cute animation on their web site only confirms it.

No it does not say that. If you intend to take a literalist approach to that segment of the Qu'ran, then you must accept the premise that they also believe that trees and rocks will talk. You must also examine where this segment of the Qu'ran is taken from. It is taken from the part in the Qu'ran where the Muslims are at war with the Jewish tribes.

After the war is won, Mohammed confers Dhimini status upon the Jews, which is not extermination.

This is why I brought up your literalist interpretation as being absurd, because it is obvious that the people in Hamas do not believe that the trees and rocks will talk to them, then it is also absurd to read the quote as meaning killing all Jews everywhere, especially as this is not even something that Mohammed advocated after the war with the Jews is won.

If your "reading" of the text is correct, then why does the charter also say:

quote:
Article Thirty One THE MEMBERS OF OTHER RELIGIONS, THE HAMAS IS A HUMANE MOVEMENT
...Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam...

You see, decontextualizing part of the Charter, and then further decontxtualizing those things out of their source text (the Qu'ran,) leads to a gross distortion of what the charter intends.

Obviously given that the Charter is heavily influenced by the Qu'ran and specifically states Jews and Christian will live in the Islamic state in peace and security, and that the Qu'ran and Mohammed speciffically alloted a status to Jews and Christians after the war was won, and the segment quoted comes from the part of the Qu'ran where the Muslims and the Jewish tribes were at war that this quote is intended simply to say that "god is on ours side," more or less.

What it is saying is that the Jews will be subject in an Islamic state.

Of course I reject this as well, but that is what the Charter is talking about.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 03:17 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
They're "humane" as long as you're not Jewish. Otherwise they intend to kill you.
Come off it Cue. Stop being an apologist. The words mean what they say. You bend over backwards to "interpret" Israeli policy into either war crimes or atrocities but when Hamas says it wants and intends to "kill all Jews" you say "well thats not what they mean." Your double standards are appalling!

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look Peech, if we accept your interpretation of Article 7, then Article 31 contradicts that.

Given that Hamas is an Islamic movemet based in their belief in the Qu'ran, and even quotes the Qu'ran, and Mohammed did not exterminate the Jews having conquered them, and the Charter also asserts that all three religions will live in peace an security, to assert a very literlist and absolute interpretation of the quoted segment of the Qu'ran in article 7, is simply illogical.

How can the people of all three religions live in peace and security if all the Jews are dead?

Mohammed didn't kill all the Jews, so why assert that Hamas is saying that they should do otherwise, when in fact thye state that there is intention is the opposite.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And by the way, the version of the Charter you are refering to is chopped up into little itty bitty pieces for apparently politcal reasons of propoganda. For you in fact Peech.

Your friends are lying to you, and giving you false information, because article 31 is much longer than what is in your version:

quote:
Article Thirty-One:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts.
Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of Islam. Past and present history are the best witness to that.

It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region, because the day these followers should take over there will be nothing but carnage, displacement and terror. Everyone of them is at variance with his fellow-religionists, not to speak about followers of other religionists. Past and present history are full of examples to prove this fact.


A better complete version of the Charter


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:45 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interpretation of the Charter:

quote:
Q: In terms though of dealing with their fears, what Israeli Jews are afraid of is that at some point the Arabs will grow to a majority in Israel and then vote to change the nature of the state in a way that puts Jews at risk.
Abu Shanab: If there is a willingness to live in peace, then the Israelis and Palestinians will jointly find a better way of living together. And if we live together, demographics doesn't have to be a problem. Demographically, Israelis are already outnumbered by Arabs in this part of the world, but there is nothing to prevent them from living their lives as Jews, just as Arabs can live as Muslims. If we treat people as human beings rather than as merely members of particular religions, we can solve the problem.

I raised this question with an Israeli officer while I was in an Israeli jail. He told me, look, Ismail, if you want to live in peace, why don't you want settlers to settle in Gaza? I said, OK, we'll accept Israeli settlers in Gaza, but can Palestinians who are willing to live in peace resettle in their homes in what's now Israel? Would you accept this? He said no. I told him that his understanding of peace meant peace for him but not for me. This is our argument with the Israelis. The problems are complex, but they can be solved with good will from both sides, from Palestinians and Israelis -- and also on the part of the international community, because the international community has to pay something for the sake of absorbing the refugees.

Q: Even if they had reached an agreement at Taba, and 90 percent of the people on both sides were satisfied, over time this whole thing would probably evolve into forms that people can't even anticipate today. In another hundred years, there may be a single state with really good human-rights guarantees that assure equality for everyone.

Abu Shanab: And at that time, what will we have? We wouldn't have an Israeli state but a state based on democracy.

Q: Which ideally would be neither a Jewish nor an Islamic state.

Abu Shanab: No, let's speak about a democratic state, because an Islamic state is compatible with democracy. In this way, we see the Israelis as part of this community, if they want to live as equals. But if they want to maintain apartheid, they will never join this community. This is the critical issue for the Israelis and the Zionist movement, as well as for those in the West who support this state. Now the Israelis see themselves as Westerners in an Eastern area, and they live here as strangers.


Interviews from Gaza


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Above interviewed Abu Shanab was assassinated in 2003

quote:
Abu Shanab, 53, was a close adviser to Hamas's founder and spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin. An English-speaking engineer who was educated at the University of Colorado, Abu Shanab was a key negotiator for Hamas in the recent cease-fire talks between the militant groups and Abbas. He served as a spokesman for Hamas and made frequent appearances on international television networks, most recently on Wednesday.

"When they killed Abu Shanab, they killed the cease-fire," Yassin said today in a television interview.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Article Thirty One THE MEMBERS OF OTHER RELIGIONS, THE HAMAS IS A HUMANE MOVEMENT
...Under the shadow of Islam it is possible for the members of the three religions: Islam, Christianity and Judaism to coexist in safety and security. Safety and security can only prevail under the shadow of Islam...

...The Nazi Zionist practices against our people will not last the lifetime of their invasion, for "States built upon oppression last only one hour, states based upon justice will last until the hour of Resurrection."...



quote:
THE ATTEMPTS TO ISOLATE THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE
Article Thirty Two
World Zionism and Imperialist forces have been attempting, with smart moves, and considered planning, to push the Arab countries, one after another, out of the circle of conflict with Zionism in order, ultimately, to isolate the Palestinian People...

Hamas is calling upon the Arab and Islamic peoples to act seriously and tirelessly in order to frustrate that dreadful scheme and to make the masses aware of the danger of coping out of the circle of struggle with Zionism. Today it is Palestine and tomorrow it may be another country or countries. For Zionist scheming has no end, and after Palestine they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates. Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present (conduct) is the best proof of what is said there.


quote:
Article 7:"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him !
Cited by Bukhari and Muslim"

I think Hitler's party were known as humanitarians too. They built roads, schools, cars and crematoriums for the Jews.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 03:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No Hitler was a vegitarian. He explicitly denounced humanitariansim in Mein Kampf. You should read it.

Nor does the referencing of the Protocols mean that someone intends extermination. Hitler also refered to Darwin, it does not mean that everyone who refers to Darwin intends to exterminate the Jews. And as for the repeated comparisons between Israel, Zionism and Nazism, I would say that is an explicit rejection of Nazism, and their policies which they equate with their enemy Israel.

Please explain the contradiction in your interpretation of Article 7 and that of Article 31.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
No I won't explain it. Since you know so much, why don't you pick up the phone and call your buddies at Hamas and ask them what they mean by proclaiming that all Jews must die and endorsing the biggest hoax of anti-semitic filth in history? I think the rest of us already know.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well since you can't explain it then I guess my interpretation of the Charter stands.

I certainly don't support it. In fact I reject it. Just as I reject the Zionist creed. However, that does not mean I am not going to counter the hysterical distortions being made about what the charter says.

I am perftecly willing to assert too, that what it says is at variance with itself, in that their plan is just as likely to intitiate a "voluntary" ethnic cleansing of the kind that Israel arranged when it determined that it would establish a Jewsish state under which Muslims and Christian could live under the "shadow of."

I reject it all. What is there to like about either. Not much. But the charter does not say they will exterminate the Jews, to say such is to make up a fiction, more or less a grand and as libelous as the Protocls which you are complaining about.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 February 2006 04:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
From Worker_Drone:
Would a thread suggesting a plan to reduce dependence on Middle Eastern oil by harnessing the awesome power of Cueball's infinite supply of hot air be more appropriate in Humanities and Science or the Middle Eastern forum?

Now if we could also figure out a way to produce electricity from all that spinning...



From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 04:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am not the one trying to say that a 1300 year old quote about trees and rocks talking, is an explicit expression of policy regarding a country that came into existance 58 years ago.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 04:40 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
No I won't explain it. Since you know so much, why don't you pick up the phone and call your buddies at Hamas and ask them what they mean by proclaiming that all Jews must die and endorsing the biggest hoax of anti-semitic filth in history? I think the rest of us already know.

It means they're angry, duh. When you're that mad, you say the meanest & most hurtful things you can think of.

Forty years under occupation tends to piss people off. It might not be right, but it's certainly to be expected.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 04:56 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But it does not mean that S1mon.

How could it possible mean that when in Article 31 it says that all three religions will live in peace, and when historically in the Qu'ran, Mohammed does not slaughter all the Jews, after they win the war against the Jewish tribes?

The segemented text is from the segement of the Qu'ran talking about the war with the Jewish tribes. It is about a specific military campaign. It is about how the war is conducted.

It is not about the civil adminstration of the proposed Islamic state.

Another quote from the Qu'ran used in the Hamas charter from Article 31:

quote:
Islam confers upon everyone his legitimate rights. Islam prevents the incursion on other people's rights. The Zionist Nazi activities against our people will not last for long. "For the state of injustice lasts but one day, while the state of justice lasts till Doomsday."

"As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings, Allah forbiddeth you not to deal kindly with them, and to behave justly towards them; for Allah loveth those who act justly." (The Tried - verse 8).


The idea that the Hamas Charter calls for the extremination of the Jewsish people is a myth.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 05:42 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It means they're angry, duh. When you're that mad, you say the meanest & most hurtful things you can think of.

Yes, I remember that from the schoolyard.

When did it become the norm for international politics? If I look at the Estonian constitution, will I find anything about the need to kill all Russians? They were occupied for fifty years.

And Tibet. Does the exiled government of Tibet have a policy of killing all Chinese?

Seriously. "They're angry"??? OK.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 05:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok Magoo please explain how the Hamas charter can, as you suppose, call for killing all the Israelis in article 7, and then in article 31 say that all relgious groups can live in peace and security?

Please explain, how that works?

Where do I buy the selective reading glasses?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 05:52 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please explain, how that works?

Wouldn't they be better able to explain this contradiction than me? And also tell us which they really mean?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
worker_drone
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posted 24 February 2006 05:53 PM      Profile for worker_drone        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ok Magoo please explain how the Hamas charter can, as you suppose, call for killing all the Israelis in article 7, and then in article 31 say that all relgious groups can live in peace and security?


Uh, Cueball, wouldn't that be this part of the charter?:

quote:
As to those who have not borne arms against you on account of religion, nor turned you out of your dwellings

You don't need a lawyer to interpret that as meaning Isrealis are excluded from the peace and love. Unless you're going to argue that Isrealis have not "borne arms against" the Palestinians on account of religion, and turned them out of their dwellings.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: worker_drone ]


From: Canada | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 06:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

Wouldn't they be better able to explain this contradiction than me? And also tell us which they really mean?


I guess so. So perhaps in your never ending efforts to ensure that you glib repartee is well founded in the facts you are no doubt going to give close attention to the linked web site above called Voices from Gaza, and the the interview with the late Abu Shanab....

A sample:

quote:
Abu Shanab: If there is a willingness to live in peace, then the Israelis and Palestinians will jointly find a better way of living together. And if we live together, demographics doesn't have to be a problem. Demographically, Israelis are already outnumbered by Arabs in this part of the world, but there is nothing to prevent them from living their lives as Jews, just as Arabs can live as Muslims. If we treat people as human beings rather than as merely members of particular religions, we can solve the problem.

Boy an Arab who talks like that definitely needs to be blown up with 20 odd extra people, right Magoo?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 06:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Especially if he happens to be the Hamas representative at a cease fire negotiation with the PA!
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 06:08 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:
Yes, I remember that from the schoolyard.

When wasn't it?

quote:
[QB]When did it become the norm for international politics? If I look at the Estonian constitution, will I find anything about the need to kill all Russians? They were occupied for fifty years.

1. Estonia is no longer under occupation.
2. Hamas isn't a nation.

So you're attempting to the compare the rhetoric of the resistance organization of a nation under occupation with the constitution of a nation at peace--that's not an apples and oranges comparison, that's apples and gravel.

When Palestin is at peace, I'm sure their constitution will be similar in nature to that of Estonia.

~~

However, if you're desperate to compare, lets compare the constitution of Estonai with that Israel. Notice how the estonians don't have special rights for certain races and religions?

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: S1m0n ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 24 February 2006 07:27 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1. Estonia is no longer under occupation.

Fair enough. But do you know what the resistance in Estonia did? They sang.

I don't have a copy of their charter, but insofar as their key tactic was singing, I feel confident in suggesting that they probably didn't have anything in there about killing all the Russians.

quote:
So you're attempting to the compare the rhetoric of the resistance organization of a nation under occupation

They're not just an independent resistance organization anymore. They're the government. They need to step up.

Sidebar: do you think they ever wish they hadn't won?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 07:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. That is why they are forming a coalition with some factions of the old government.

That way they can be the old "blood and guts" Hamas on the one side and manouver on the other, blaming the old PLO people for their failures, and taking credit when their is credit to be had.

[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 February 2006 07:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas organizes demonstration in Gaza to protest Nablus and Balat massacre

quote:
The Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas, organized a massive demonstration on Thursday night in Gaza City to protest the massacre committed by the IOF troops in Nablus and the Balata refugee camp.

Thousands of Palestinians participated in the demonstration which started from various mosques in Gaza city and marched the streets of the city carrying placards and chanting against occupation and its atrocities against the Palestinian people.

Participants also chanted slogans emphasizing the unity of the Palestinian people in the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip and condemned the Zionist atrocities rejecting the spelling of Palestinian blood as a way of Israeli party political campaigning for the upcoming Israeli elections


[ 24 February 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 24 February 2006 10:37 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

They're not just an independent resistance organization anymore. They're the government. They need to step up.

Why? What did being polite ever buy Fatah? As soon as the PLO recognized Israel, the Israeli public promptly elected Netanyahu and then sharon, who
shut down the negotiations and started building as many facts on the ground as possible, while conducting a program of assasinations, demolitions & partition.

The Israeli population in the occupied territories is now several times what it was the day that the PLO recognized Israel. As strategies go, that's a loser. No wonder the Palestinian population has elected to alter course.

If the Israelis wanted fatah to remain in power, then utterly ignoring and humiliating them was probably NOT the most effective diplomacy to pursue.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 24 February 2006 10:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Barak was between Netenyahu and Sharon.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 25 February 2006 03:38 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
They're "humane" as long as you're not Jewish. Otherwise they intend to kill you.
Come off it Cue. Stop being an apologist. The words mean what they say. You bend over backwards to "interpret" Israeli policy into either war crimes or atrocities but when Hamas says it wants and intends to "kill all Jews" you say "well thats not what they mean." Your double standards are appalling!


Pots, kettles and all that good stuff.

Personally I think their both a little bit full of shit.

Who's killing more people on the other side under cover of "humane" rubric?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 25 February 2006 03:43 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fair enough. But do you know what the resistance in Estonia did? They sang.

Do you know what the Resistance in Warsaw Ghetto did?

Do you know what Black Africans did versus Apartheid?

Do you know what the American colonies did against Britain?

Applying your logic, Israel has no right to use any violence to defend itself either.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Farmageddon
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posted 26 February 2006 01:59 AM      Profile for Farmageddon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmmmm....Question:

If Hamas was to form the "legitimate goverment" of the P.A. , and then then was foolish enough to then commit an "act of war" , would then the Israeli government then have "legitimate" recourse to wipe them off the face of the earth in "open" warfare?

Would it not then be reasonable to say that democratic election of Hamas is a benefit to the Israeli government by bringing their enemy out of the shadows, so to speak?


F


From: The seventh ring of a watery hell... | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 26 February 2006 03:44 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You might as well put quotation marks around "P.A." for all the ability it has to commit a genuine act of war.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged

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