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Author Topic: One State Solution the Only Solution?
Alan Avans
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posted 29 January 2006 02:35 PM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Methinks this is so.

What say y'all?

And for those you who agree with me...how might a one-state solution for Israelis and Palestianians be accomplished?


From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 02:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
1) Israel decamps from the West Bank.

2) Decreased tensions allow for a slow ebbing of antagonism and corollary violence from Palestinians as they are able to pursue normal civil life.

3) The natural demographic political and economic linkages between the occupied territories, and the rest of the country, are allowed to re-root, and form the basis of a joint civil society, which will (over time) naturally conform to the existing demographic political and economic reality.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 February 2006 01:01 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
1) Israel decamps from the West Bank.

Isreal refuses to leave the West Bank because to abandoning the territory would mean giving up the aquaifers that supply the state with much of its drinking water. If the Isrealis were to "decamp" would they be able to find a suitable source of H20? Would desalination be able to supply all of Isreal's water needs, and if not, would Olmert's government be able to convince the average red blooded Isreali to cut back on their water use?

[ 04 February 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 February 2006 01:13 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 04 February 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 04 February 2006 02:31 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
The only solution accptable to both sides is the two-state solution endorsed by the international community.

The one-state solution would only be acceptable to Israel if they were to annex the West Bank and Gaza and deport millions of Palestinians.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
profit mohammed
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posted 04 February 2006 03:02 AM      Profile for profit mohammed        Edit/Delete Post
but the only acceptable solution also involves both sides controlling jerusalem. a one state solution, which i support but accept to be impractical in the short term, will ensure that both share jerusalem.

if isreal is the democracy it claims to be, it must then accept minority rights for the arabs within its borders (and walls, increasingly). sure the arabs would outnumner the jews eventually, but if you have a tradition of minority rights there should be no problem.

and israel, of course, will have to accept the right of return.

as small as palestine/israel is, i think a federated system not too different from out system that accomodates (well i think it does a pretty good job anyways) the french minority could still work there.


From: ottawa | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
JKR
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posted 04 February 2006 03:16 AM      Profile for JKR        Edit/Delete Post
I think a solution like the proposed Geneva Accords is the way to go.
From: Vancouver | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
profit mohammed
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posted 04 February 2006 03:17 AM      Profile for profit mohammed        Edit/Delete Post
agreed. there was much consensus around taba, but sharon doesnt/didnt really want peace.
From: ottawa | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Gir Draxon
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posted 04 February 2006 03:26 AM      Profile for Gir Draxon     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

3) The natural demographic political and economic linkages between the occupied territories, and the rest of the country, are allowed to re-root, and form the basis of a joint civil society, which will (over time) naturally conform to the existing demographic political and economic reality.

Care to elaborate on exactly what you mean by this?


From: Arkham Asylum | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
profit mohammed
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posted 04 February 2006 03:45 AM      Profile for profit mohammed        Edit/Delete Post
my guess: everyone will shop and work together and form social bonds. quixotic, but i like it.
From: ottawa | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 04 February 2006 08:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Guess what?

There will finally be peace in Palestine when the Arabs and Jews are able to live together.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 04 February 2006 09:44 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Guess what?
There will finally be peace in Palestine when the Arabs and Jews are able to live together.


Couldn't agree more.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 February 2006 05:20 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and israel, of course, will have to accept the right of return.

When will the return happen? The Israelis show absolutely no sign of accepting the right of return, and while they may finally be forced to accommodate the growing number of Christian and Muslim arabs living in Israel itself(30% of marriages in the country are taking place between Israelis of Palestinian descent) accommodating 3 million(or more) refugees who have never lived in Israel, don't speak Hebrew etc. will be a large, and wholly different undertaking, and will probably take years to oganize. What do the refugees do until then. How many of them have actually laid down roots in Lebanon, Jordan and Syria?

[ 05 February 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 05 February 2006 07:38 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
bump
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
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posted 05 February 2006 08:36 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

The Israelis show absolutely no sign of accepting the right of return, and while they may finally be forced to accommodate the growing number of Christian and Muslim arabs living in Israel itself(30% of marriages in the country are taking place between Israelis of Palestinian descent) accommodating 3 million(or more) refugees who have never lived in Israel, don't speak Hebrew etc. will be a large, and wholly different undertaking, and will probably take years to oganize. What do the refugees do until then.
[ 05 February 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]

This is why a one-state solution might be the only answer. I've always been a two-stater myself, but I recently took a trip out there and learned a few new things, and I've sort of come around to the idea of a unified what-have-you.
Seeing so many Palestinians commute to Israel every day for employment was one.


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
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posted 05 February 2006 08:37 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of course, the right of return would be a necessary pre-requisite for this.
From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 09 February 2006 02:04 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Of course, the right of return would be a necessary pre-requisite for this.

Yes, and I'm sure the return will happen eventually, but it probably won't happen for a while.

My question wasn't rhetorical, I actually want to know what the refugees will do until the time comes when they have to go home. They could get a decent educations if the Israeli government allowed the United Nations to open up schools in the camps, but even if that did happen, there would be no way for the educated refugees to find work in their adopted countries. The Jordanians hate the Palestinians and if the residents of the Lebanese refugee camps were to work in Lebanon, they would probably upset the demographic balance in that country, cause social unrest and possibly ignite another Civil War.
So what will they do for the next 20 years while Israel adjusts to the idea of being a truly multicultural state? Have Palestinian refugees from Lebanon, Jordan and Syria been able to find work in Isreal itself?

[ 09 February 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 February 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think the smart money is finnessing the right of return in the long term.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 09 February 2006 11:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I think the smart money is finnessing the right of return in the long term.

How do we do that?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 09 February 2006 11:47 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How do we garauntee them safety, security and employment while they wait to go home?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 February 2006 11:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We? Well it is possible, (and I am not quite sure I agree with this) but if you assume that a temporary two state solution, will by natural social and cultural forces lead eventually to an amalgamation of the West Bank and Israel into a single secular and multi-cultural state recognizing all citizens equally, in the long run, and the consider that the bulk of refugees live in the West Bank, you have at least partially instituted the right of return right there.

However, the presuposition that a two state solution will not simply become a static assertion of Israeli power in the Apartheid mode is a big "if."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 10 February 2006 12:31 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
We? Well it is possible, (and I am not quite sure I agree with this) but if you assume that a temporary two state solution, will by natural social and cultural forces lead eventually to an amalgamation of the West Bank and Israel into a single secular and multi-cultural state recognizing all citizens equally, in the long run, and the consider that the bulk of refugees live in the West Bank, you have at least partially instituted the right of return right there.

However, the presuposition that a two state solution will not simply become a static assertion of Israeli power in the Apartheid mode is a big "if."


Most of them live in the West Bank? Are you sure? I was under the impression that huge numbers of refugees lived in camps which were built in neghbouring arab states,(Lebanon aparently has half a million refugees living on its soil)


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 February 2006 12:37 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is true, I was just generally feeling my way around the topic, not being specific, it is the root idea I am talking about.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 13 February 2006 01:03 PM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's the deal to make the one state solution with the right-of-return for Palestians thrown in for good measure, palatable to Jewish Israelis: NATO membership for the new unified state.
From: Christian Democratic Union of USAmerica | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 13 February 2006 01:27 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alan, I suport a one-state solution; however I don't support the western imperialism of NATO. As such, I can't support NATO membership in exchange for a unified Israel/Palestine. You get rid of one porblem, but you create another.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 16 February 2006 10:27 AM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
Alan, I suport a one-state solution; however I don't support the western imperialism of NATO. As such, I can't support NATO membership in exchange for a unified Israel/Palestine. You get rid of one porblem, but you create another.

I don't see NATO as being imperialist. It has in fact been a check, albeit an imperfect check, against the imbalances of USAmerican foreign policy.

As for getting rid of one problem to create another....being able to pick and choose which problem you're have is the next best thing to having the perfect solution.

I was listening to the BBC overnight and was pleasantly surprised to hear that Spain's former PM Aznar was making the rounds advocating NATO membership for Israel. Maybe it'll get some traction.


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Zaklamont
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posted 19 February 2006 03:00 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
A one state solution is a dream in technicolour.

For those who think the horrible recent civil war in Lebanon, which was based on many things BUT INCLUDED RELIGIOUS COMMUNTATARIAN FACTIONALISM, TO A GREAT EXTENT was something that appeared out of nowhere, do your history.

It is no surprise that Lebanese Christian exile communbities are to be found all over the world, arising from the inability of the Muslim and Christian communities there to find peace together, albeit many, many hundreds of years of living side by side.

Here in Canada , we are continually on the edge of Quebec separation. Hell, we need to accept a Separatist party in the Canadian parliament!

As well, programming on the French CBC to present Anglo Canadian culture to French Canadian listeners/viewers is nowhere to be found, although everyone agrees that
there is a grave need for cross cultural exchange. It aint gonna happen. (And it is very possible that preventing separation aint gonna happen.)
Why? Because the French CBC doesn't CARE (read FEEL) for anglo Canadian culture. Why? Because the average French Canadian doesn't CARE for anglo Canadian culture.

Israelis are not interested in a bi-national government because their nation building has not sufficiently matured. They are not interested because years of facing Palestinian hostility to their existence does not endear them to enter into a bi-national building process.

Peoples join hands because THEY FEEL it's in their interest, not out of some kind of dogma.

And if 40 years of having their children and their brothers and sisters and parents blown up in municipal buses and marketplaces hasn't made them FEEL for joining in a bi-national state, will some dogmatic idea of it succeed?


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 February 2006 03:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Umm, dude the first Palestinian Sucide bomber went off in 1994 (10 years ago) not 1966 (40 years ago). That was a year before Israal invaded the West Bank.

I don't mind if you froth and spit all over your keyboard, but try not to engage in total distortions.

[ 19 February 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
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posted 28 February 2006 02:29 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
cueball, I don't mind your arguing over my facts but editorializing about my style of writing is quite another thing.

This site should not be a showcase for your not so latent insecurities.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 February 2006 02:41 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee Zak, Cueball said he didn't mind your style, it was your distortion of the facts that he took issue with.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 February 2006 07:52 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I don't mind if you froth and spit all over your keyboard,

Knock it off.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 28 February 2006 01:11 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
I think that both sides will have to renounce their respective rights of return, so that Israel will have to rewrite it's immigration laws to reflect place of birth rather than religion, and that this will have to apply to both Jews and non-jews alike.

The International community will have to step up, and make very generous offers of citizenship to resettle the bulk of the Palestinian refugee diaspora, although Isreal too will have to resettle a portion. By the international community, I mean both the arab and western worlds.

Once a peace deal has been signed, the new state of Israel-Palestine will have to devote a lot of attention to raising the standard of living, and particularly of education of the Palestinian population, which will stabilize their birth-rate to a level similar to the rate of Jewish births.

And then let the natural course of events take place. Both the Israelis and Palestinians are trading nations. Mercantile interests will rapidly reintegrate their economies and in consequence societies.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
unionist
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posted 28 February 2006 01:19 PM      Profile for unionist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:
I think that both sides will have to renounce their respective rights of return, so that Israel will have to rewrite it's immigration laws to reflect place of birth rather than religion, and that this will have to apply to both Jews and non-jews alike.

I understand those whose families have never lived and worked there renouncing their "right" of "return". But why would Palestinians have to do that? Or do you just mean Palestinians born in exile, even though their homes may still be occupied?

Anyway, I like half of your idea, so let me get the ball rolling:

I, unionist, hereby officially, publicly, and forever renounce my right of return to Israel, notwithstanding that the current law of Israel reserves that legal privilege to me.

What a relief. Ok now, who's next? This is actually incredible. Why did I never think of this before? A mass movement is born.

Copyright unionist, 2006 - all rights reserved.

[ 28 February 2006: Message edited by: unionist ]


From: Vote QS! | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 28 February 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by unionist:

I understand those whose families have never lived and worked there renouncing their "right" of "return". But why would Palestinians have to do that? Or do you just mean Palestinians born in exile, even though their homes may still be occupied?

I quite agree, it's both unfair and illegal under international law. However, it's the only route to a deal. That's why I think that there will have to be an extraordianary degree of support from the international community, in order to take some of the sting away.

Maybe the process could be made a lot smoother for those who emigrate--the path to citizenship and the amount of support available to those awaiting could be made a lot easier for those who surrender their rights under international law.

The process I foresee would see something like all current residents of the occupied territories would become full citizens of the new nation; while those from the refugee diaspora who can prove birth in either Israel or Palestine likewise. Those who were born abroad to citizens could claim derivative citizenship, but the process would be made deliberately onerous and lengthy, in comparison with the process required to resettle them in other lands.

If the details are managed correctly, this should finesse the Palestinian right of return--enough would be able to return from exile to estabklish the moral and legal issue that ethnic cleansing isn't right, but the bulk actually opt to go elsewhere, so that the jewish population of the new nation remains substantial enough for safety.

Hmm. What else? Israel has a PR system of election to the Knesset, doesn't it? What if the laws were amended so that, at a minimum, every third or fourth name on each party list has to be from another religious community, to prevent the politics from congealing into racial camps?


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 February 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Knock it off.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 03 March 2006 10:26 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, now that Cueball has shown us the SILLIEST GRAPHIC OF THE WEEK, I'd like to raise one other issue for advocates of binationaism:

The biggest objection that Israelis raise to binationalism, and the most difficult to answer is this:

Why should Jews trust non-Jews to protect their physical safety?

Because that is what binationalism supporters are asking Israeli Jews to do.

Given the number of times the world has failed them on that issue, why should they trust the world?

I'd personally like to believe that, if a binational state were establish, this would mean the end of Jewish-Arab conflict, but it is hard to be sure that such a state would be able to make it possible for both communities to live in those lands and live in them in safety and equality.

What proposals do binationalism supporters have on this issue?


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 03 March 2006 11:53 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The biggest objection that Israelis raise to binationalism, and the most difficult to answer is this:

Why should Jews trust non-Jews to protect their physical safety?


You say this is their biggest objection, but what I read on babble is that the question is more one of Jews running their own state than of anyone "protecting" them.

quote:
I'd personally like to believe that, if a binational state were establish, this would mean the end of Jewish-Arab conflict, but it is hard to be sure that such a state would be able to make it possible for both communities to live in those lands and live in them in safety and equality.

Nothing is sure, but Palestine will forever be a war zone if things stay as they are. A binational state would go far to overcome the injustices that the Arabs have suffered since 1948.

[ 03 March 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 04 March 2006 03:09 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, they want to have their own state, but the reason they are so fixated on that is, as much as anything else, they were never previously safe when they had to live in other people's states.

That is a fact that Europeans and North Americans(and remember, The United States and Canada together could easily have accomodated all the Jewish refugees from Hitler [along with the radicals, gays and lesbians, Gypsies and Jehovah's Witnesses who were also excluded, of course]and refused to do so)bear most of the blame for, but it helped shaped the Zionist mindset, and the continual Palestinian refusal to acknowledge that Jews were historic victims of persecution(alongside those Holocaust-denial textbooks in the West Bank schools)feeds the darkest fears in that mindset.

I support a two-state solution for now, with binationalism as an ultimate objective if some kind of genuine reconciliation could ever be achieved among those who identify as Palestinians and those who identify as Israelis.

But it would help a lot if Hamas could say "The moment a Palestinian state is established, all armed struggle ceases forever".

It would also help if they'd at least say "We are fighting agsinst the Israeli government, not against every single Jew on the planet". The world needs to know that there will never be another Leon Klinghoffer.

At present, and with Hamas' rhetorical history, its understandible that the Israelis wouldn't exactly trust them, and you can't expect any government to willingly negotiate a document that would potentially put the nation it governs out of existence.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged

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