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Author Topic: When will Israel renounce violence?
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 29 January 2006 01:01 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestine has a right to security. Until Israel renounces violence in pursuit of its aims, how can it be considered a partner in the peace process?
From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
malcontent
Babbler # 621

posted 29 January 2006 02:28 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Context: I am sick to death of one sided, racist media reporting and centrist politicians saying "Israel has a right to security" and "when will the Palestinians renounce violence". The questions work just as well, in fact, better, the other way around. That they are not asked points, pretty clearly to me, to a racist double standard. Palestinian lives are less deserving of security than Israeli lives. Palestinian homes are less deserving of security than Israeli homes. Palestinian lands are less deserving of protection than Israeli lands. If you don't believe those things, then with equal breath, while you ask Hamas to renounce violence and recognize Israel, you ask Israel to renounce violence, leave the occupied territories, and recognize Palestine.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11061

posted 29 January 2006 06:59 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A couple of months ago Israel was relocating Jewish settlers from the parts that were handed over to the Palestines. I saw some footage on this on tv and it kinda bashed all my hope for peace in that area...
I saw a mother talking about her son. Though he had been a boy of only about 14 years old, he had been fighting againt their eviction with much persistence. He had been taken away by soldiers, kicking and screaming, that he would never "hand over their territory to the &$^#*@ Palestines"...
His mother was so proud of him showing such hatred towards another group of people. She also expressed the hope that her son would reclaim their territory when he was older. She considered the area's given to the Palestines were only of a temporary nature and would soon be reclaimed in the near future...
The attitude of the mother almost brought a tear to my eye. How can a parent approve, no even stimulate hatred in their kids..?!


I don't think the attitude of the Palestines towards the Jews will be much different. And as long as parents keep pumping hatred towards the other group into their kids, I don't see the violence (from either side!) in the area coming to a halt...

"La haine attire la haine..."

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661

posted 29 January 2006 09:50 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Espousing hatred in ANY form is just plain disgusting.

The difference between the two groups in the region is that Israelis have the POWER to USE their hatred, militarily.

The Palestinians have NO power, other than to "suicide bomb".

Neither is right or defendable.

BOTH must adjust their mindsets towards the other in order to achieve their goals!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 30 January 2006 10:07 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cdnviking:
Espousing hatred in ANY form is just plain disgusting.

The difference between the two groups in the region is that Israelis have the POWER to USE their hatred, militarily.

The Palestinians have NO power, other than to "suicide bomb".

Neither is right or defendable.

BOTH must adjust their mindsets towards the other in order to achieve their goals!



It is impossible for both sides in a conflict to put down their weapons at the same time, one side has to set an example, and then the other side must follow. The Palestinians have been sending the Israelis peace overtures for at least the last 19 years. Yasser Arafat sent a letter to the Israeli Prime Minister in 1988, the Israelis paid no attention. Sheik Yassin offered to renounce violence recently, and the Israelis paid no attention. Since Palestinian offers of peace have been ignored, it is up to the Israelis to lay down arms first.

[ 31 January 2006: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 30 January 2006 11:16 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Just for the record can you source these allegations about the Sheik and Arafat. Thanks
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 12:02 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Allegations are in the form of umproved accusation. So, it seems to me you are suggesting that it is a bad thing for Ahmed Yassin to have offered a thirty year truce in 1997, or Arafat recogned Israel in 1988.

This information has been sourced on this web site, and on threads you have particiapted in numerous times. Given this it seems pointless to once again search sources etcetera, to extablish facts that are part of the public record, as you obviously didn't bother to reaf those source the last time they were brought to your attemtion.

Or look for it yourself, may I suggest going to the Swedish government site for internet facsimiles of the original letter that Arafat sent Rabin recognizing Israel as part of the Oslo accords, and there is an MSNBC article quoting by name Sheik Ahmed Yassin's Mossad "handler" describing the thirty year truce suggested by Yassin, when he was in jail.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 12:05 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Learning how to do internet reserach is a worthwhile and sometimes entertaining activity. You should try it. Perhaps when you find the relevant material you can post it here.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661

posted 31 January 2006 08:37 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
CMOT... I agree with you. The dispossessed have been victims TIME AND TIME AGAIN of Israeli Military Aggression.

Yasser Arafat was an ACCUSED terrorist... Menachim Begin was a CONVICTED one!

That, in and of itself, shows the mindset of Israel FOR OVER 45 YEARS.

Israel REFUSES to deal with ALLEGED "terrorists" (Israel ASSASSINATES enemies, it doesn't capture them and put them on trial for the world to see), but has made jewish terrorists PRIME MINISTERS!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 03:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can we avoid using phrases such as "Jewish terrorists?" I would like that. If only because it helps reinforce the myth, that "Jewishness" and "Israeliness" are incontrovertably linked, which is in fact one of the essential myths the Zionist like to purvey.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661

posted 31 January 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Can we avoid using phrases such as "Jewish terrorists?" I would like that. If only because it helps reinforce the myth, that "Jewishness" and "Israeliness" are incontrovertably linked, which is in fact one of the essential myths the Zionist like to purvey.

What would be the correct term then for the "Stern Gang" and "Irgun"?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 03:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Zionist terrorists," if you must use the term "terrorost," which I opposed in all its usages, as in when Hamas is called a "terrorist Organization, "terrorist state" yadda yadda. But that it is whole other story.

But yes, "Zionist terrorists," especially as there is a very large segement of the Jewish population, a number of Babblers for one, whom oppose Zionism, on various grounds.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 31 January 2006 04:11 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't like throwing around the term "terrorist" either - especially since it is mostly used against the freelance violent, not states that kill even more people, but what would you call the Al Qaïda guys? Couldn't they be accurately referred to as Islamist terrorists? (Not because they were brought up as Muslims, but because they hold up a doctrine of terrorist acts in support of their reading of fundamentalist Islam? And what about the ultraorthodox Jewish guy who murdered all the Muslim worshippers in a Mosque?
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bacchus
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4722

posted 31 January 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for Bacchus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And what about the ultraorthodox Jewish guy who murdered all the Muslim worshippers in a Mosque?

I'd agree with cueball (a surprise given our bickering in another thread ) that Zionist terrorist would fit. Zionism is a jewish movement, but not all jews are zionist. Just like calling Al Quaeda muslim terrorists would be wrong.


From: n/a | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 31 January 2006 04:19 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think "terrorist acts" are a misnomer. I call them acts of war, even murder, but to me there is no distinction, between war and terrorism. Terror is the fundamental means of war. Most men (and women) in losing armies flee the battlefield in terror, and are not killed upon it. That is the nature of war. War is terror.

Armies are institutions whose productive capcity is turned toward the distilation and instillation of terror. Nothin more.

There is a reason that this term appears to find itself so conveniently at the disposal of the powerful when in conflict with the weak, and that is because they like to use it to make a distinction, using their massed public relations machinery, between what they do "war" and those whom they fight do "terror." "War" is an act of civilization, it is implied, while "terror" an act of the barbarous.

[ 31 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11061

posted 01 February 2006 10:54 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here's something:

Settlers clash with Israel troops

quote:

Israeli troops have clashed with crowds of demonstrators resisting the evacuation of a Jewish settler outpost near Ramallah in the West Bank.

The evacuation of Amona outpost comes at the end of a long legal battle.

The international roadmap peace plan demands Israel uproot all unauthorised outposts built since March 2001.

The Amona outpost was built in 1996 on private Palestinian land on a hilltop north of Ramallah. About 30 families live in caravans on the site.

Correspondents say Wednesday's clashes were on par with the most violent scenes of resistance to the dismantling of settlements in the Gaza Strip last August.

Two right-wing MPs who joined the protest were among the injured.

"They are treating people here like Arabs," Arieh Eldad of the National Union Party told Israel Radio.

Mr Eldad said his arm had been broken.


Can the problem be stated more clearly than in those last few lines...?

[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11061

posted 01 February 2006 11:06 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And here another "nice" step towards peace by Israel...!

Israel halts tax payments to Palestinians

quote:

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel halted monthly tax payments to the cash-strapped Palestinian Authority one week after the election victory of Hamas, but the militant group said it would turn to the Arab world for financial support.

The customs revenue collected by Israel on behalf of the Palestinians is the main source of funding for their budget and is used to pay an estimated 140,000 government workers.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said Israel did not make its scheduled February 1 payment, estimated by the Palestinian Authority at $55 million.

The Palestinian Authority faces a financial crunch if Israel continues to withhold the tax money.

Unemployment in the Palestinian territories runs high, at 22 percent, and half the Palestinian population lives in poverty. In Gaza, many Palestinians live on an average of $2 a day.

"This is our money and Israel is not a donor country," Sonnoqrot told Reuters. "Israel should immediately release the money because it belongs to the Palestinian people."
He estimated about 1 million Palestinians would be affected by Israel's decision, and warned: "This may cause chaos."

The decision to cut off funding came as Olmert sent riot police into the West Bank to remove part of an unauthorized Jewish settler outposts in a bid to assert control after assuming the powers of Ariel Sharon.

He hinted on Tuesday he would remove isolated West Bank settlements if elected in March as polls predict, telling Kadima supporters that he would "shape the permanent borders of Israel as a country with a clear and solid Jewish majority".

Palestinians fear go-it-alone moves by Israel would deny them a viable state.


[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged

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