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Author Topic: Hamas Win Part 2
TCD
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posted 27 January 2006 01:11 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I read the just-closed thread with interest.

Most people ignored what I think was the most important point - while we all think of the peace process as the most important issue facing Palestinians, they don't.

Hamas won by campaigning on (for lack of a better term) "bread and butter" issues - the need for better roads, better hospitals, reliable public services, and a government that does what it's supposed to do without being bribed.

Even though most Palestinians agreed with the direction Fatah was going they felt they could no longer reward the corruption, the backroom deals and the chronic dysfunction. Also, the new Leader of Fatah was not as chasrismatic as the man he replaced and not as politically savvy. And Fatah fatally underestimated Hamas' ability to present a moderate compassionate side that blunted the public's doubts about their ability to govern. Sound familiar?

If Israelis are smart they will realize that and not ostracize the new government. Doing so will simply unite Palestinians behind them and further marginalize Fatah as corrupt and in the pocket of Israel.

However, if the past is any predictor of the future, the Israeli public will react to this news ny making Netanyahu the Prime Minister. He will be stupid and aggressive and Hamas will claim that Israel is not only an evil occupting army but actually oppposed to clean effective government.

Things will get bad.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 01:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think Fatah undersestimated anything. I think they were comitted to the process, and there was nothing the could do about that, other than supress it. I think they lost, and they new they were going to lose. Sometimes it is the case that parties just lose.

I really wouldn't be suprised it Abbas voted for Hamas.

As for your general arguement, I think it is correct, however the "bread and butter" issues, as you call them are fundamentally tied to economic revitalization and such requires and end to the occupationl, so such issues do not simply float in the air seperate from Israeli policy.

As for things getting bad. I don't think Palestinians envisage that things could get worse, or if they can, they believe they are going go that way whomever they support, which is directly tied their experience of the Oslo process, which ultimatley meant more settlers, and more IDF, not less.

As someone put it on the other thread, it is a big "fuck you to the world," and there is some of that in this as well.

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 27 January 2006 02:08 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Before people create too many theories about "why did the Palestinians vote for Hamas?" let's check what they actually did:
Change and Reform (Hamas) 434,817
Fatah Movement 403,458
Martyr Abu Ali Mustafa (PFLP) 41,671
The Alternative 28,779
Independent Palestine (Mustafa Barghouti and
Independents) 26,554
The Third Way 23,513
5 smaller lists below 2% threshold 53,200
Total 1,011,992

So 42.97% of Palestinian voters voted for Hamas.


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for poppoing by and saying just about sweet fuck all once again.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Only a complete cretin could possibly question the signifgance of 42.97% popular vote share. Your lack of speculations, warnings, and caution are amusing coming from someone who doesn't even recognize the narrative basis of Palestinian history as causual to their opinions, and actionable in the discourse of thier politics.

The fact that you are all at sea on this is quite understandable, really. A more intellectaully honest person would take the opportunity to shut up.

Interesting that you seem quite vociferous on the meaning and or imprtance, of the recent CPC victory in Canada on the basis of vote share of 10% less. But what is consistency, when ones ideological cuddily bear is at stake?

But hey! Its a message board, and what can one do?

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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jrootham
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posted 27 January 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, stop being such a twit.

I recognize that Wilf has made comments in the past about Palestine that you (and I) disagree with. However, he has done substantial work and commentary on voting systems and their consequences. I see nothing in his posts that indicates he is applying that work to this election in any inconsistent fashion.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Skdadl, your message box is full.
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Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
Cueball, stop being such a twit.

I recognize that Wilf has made comments in the past about Palestine that you (and I) disagree with. However, he has done substantial work and commentary on voting systems and their consequences. I see nothing in his posts that indicates he is applying that work to this election in any inconsistent fashion.


Bull shit. He said we should not speculate on the signifgance of 42% vote share. You think that is not "applying that work to this election in any inconsistent fashion?"

Wilf, speculates endlessly on much smaller vote shares for parties all over the world, but here we should shut up?

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 January 2006 02:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Thanks for poppoing by and saying just about sweet fuck all once again.

That's completely unnecessary. It's a legitimate comment.

Everyone else - I've dealt with it so please post around it instead of piling on.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 27 January 2006 02:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oops. Remedied.
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S1m0n
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posted 27 January 2006 02:40 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:

Most people ignored what I think was the most important point - while we all think of the peace process as the most important issue facing Palestinians, they don't.

Hamas won by campaigning on (for lack of a better term) "bread and butter" issues - the need for better roads, better hospitals, reliable public services, and a government that does what it's supposed to do without being bribed.


There ISN'T any peace process--it's been stopped dead ever since Netanyahu and Sharon got elected.

The road map was abandoned by Israel the moment that Bush won election and the US stopped pushing, but it wasn't going to lead to peace either.

The Palestinian people made a rational decision and voted for the bird in the hand.

If there really WAS a genuine prospect for a peace settlement and if Fatah was the only party that could attain the deal, the Palestinians would vote for it by a massive majority.

However, there's no sign of such an occurrance happening. Maybe if Peretz gets in, there'll be a real prospect of peace, but not under the current Israeli government.

This is a perfect time for the palestinians to teach Fatah something about probity and humility.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 27 January 2006 02:44 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Bull shit. He said we should not speculate on the signifgance of 42% vote share. You think that is not "applying that work to this election in any inconsistent fashion?"

I just read all his posts on the two threads. Where did he say that?


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wilf Day holdiong forth on the signifcance of the German elections speculating endlessly, on all levels, on all topics:

quote:
Not so fast. The history is far more interesting.
After the German defeat in WWI, the revolutionary left seised power in parts of Germany, following on the recent Soviet Russian example. I imagine conventional Marxist thinking at the time was that the German working class was the natural leader of the world socialist revolution, and the Russian head start was a fluke.

And a lot of those parts were in the south:

In the course of the November revolution in Germany at the end of World War One, in Saxony workers' and soldiers' councils were established on 8 and 9 November 1918. They took over legislative and executive power and proclaimed the Republic of Saxony on 10 November. Chairman of the Council of People's Commissioners from
15 Nov 1918 to 21 Jan 1919 was Robert Richard Lipinski of the USPD (Independent Social Democratic Party, left-socialist). On 25 February 1919 the newly elected parliament was convened, which called itself "people's chamber". It adopted the preliminary basic law for the Free State of Saxony. Not until 1922, on October 23, did the German army occupy Saxony and crush what was left of the Soviet Republic of Saxony. (I can't figure out the details from 1919 to 1922.)

Next door, Bavaria was proclaimed a "socialist republic" 7 November 1918, led by Kurt Eisner of the USPD. After his assassination, on April 6 the "Bavarian Soviet Republic" was proclaimed. Initially, it was ruled by other USPD members. Their regime collapsed within six days, followed by the communists, led by Eugen Levine, sometimes characterized as a "potential German Lenin." He began communist reforms, that included expropriating luxurious apartments and giving them to the homeless, placing factories under the ownership and control of the workers, etc. He organized his own army, the Red Army, similar to the Red Army of Soviet Russia. In order to protect the revolution, thousands of unemployed workers volunteered; soon their ranks reached 20,000. The Red Guards began arresting known counter-revolutionaries and on 29 April 1919, eight men were executed as right-wing spies.

Soon after, on 3 May 1919, the proto-fascist Freikorps (having a force of 30,000 men), together with the "White Guards of Capitalism" (having a force of 9,000), invaded the Bavarian Soviet Republic and defeated the communists, after bitter street fights in which over 1,000 volunteer supporters of the Bavarian Soviet Republic died.

Even in Württemberg a "People's State of Württemberg" was formed on 9 November 1918 run by the SPD and USPD. On 12 January 1919 new elections confirmed it in office. But in June 1920 the left government was defeated.


But here any speculation historical anaklysis is premature, or unwarranted at 42%. Nice.

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:

I just read all his posts on the two threads. Where did he say that?


Directly in the post I qouted he said:

quote:
Before people create too many theories about "why did the Palestinians vote for Hamas?" let's check what they actually did:


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 27 January 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So he's willing to speculate on subjects he knows about (German political history) but not on subjects he doesn't? And this is objectionable, how?
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is a direct attempt at silencing discussion.
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Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by jrootham:
So he's willing to speculate on subjects he knows about (German political history) but not on subjects he doesn't? And this is objectionable, how?

Then why is insisting that other people who might have actually studied Palestinian history substantially should not speculate, or discuss the historical context of the elcection politics among Palestinians?

Is it that he thinks the obvious limits of his own knowledge should define our own?

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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jrootham
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posted 27 January 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I give up. No way can I make headway on this level of skewed interpretation of English.
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johnpauljones
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posted 27 January 2006 02:53 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
oh my you mean wilf is mishei?
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Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Find for me, on this other thread, anywhere, Wilf suggesting that discussion about the aims, beliefs and history of Germany should not be discussed among the particpants of the board, as relative to what can be discerned from the election results?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
oh my you mean wilf is mishei?

Certainly not. Mishei is far less passive agressive, which is an achievement.


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obscurantist
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posted 27 January 2006 02:57 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'd like to respond to Cueball's inane response to Wilf's inane comment with an inane comment of my own. Hmm, I think I just did.
From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 02:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well that is at least funny.
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Serendipity
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posted 27 January 2006 03:53 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I'd like to ask, is what will this mean for Hamas and it's relationship with the other revolutionary groups in Palestine?

Let's not forget the PLO once had the luxury of being a free-flying band of militants before they ascended to power. It was then that the task facing them got harder, not easier.

On the one hand, they were continuously faulted by their own people for bowing to and even collaborating with Israel, for not pounding their fists hard enough at the bargaining table, and for allowing corruption to fester within their own ranks. On the other, they took all the blame from Israel for not doing enough to suppress the other militants, despite a gutted and hapless PA police corps that Israel had stunted itself.

It's a hard job running Palestine - I certainly wouldn't want it. But how will they manage to cope with this same situation that they will undoubtedly be put in? What will THEY do, caught in between that rock and hard place?

Will Islamic Jihad become the next Hamas and take up the title as king of the uncompromising militias? Will they take swipes at Hamas's leadership? Is the whole thing cyclical?

EDITED: for nonsensical grammar!

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Serendipity ]


From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 27 January 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by obscurantist:
I'd like to respond to Cueball's inane response to Wilf's inane comment . . .

Actually I didn't make any inane comment, yet. I just stated the votes, which is always a useful prelude to making comments, inane or otherwise, on an election outcome.

I have no comment yet on the meaning of this election outcome for Palestine, because I don't know yet what Hamas will do with it. I've read speculation about a government of national unity, or a coalition headed by a Prime Minister from the Third Way party, and I'm sure there are other possibilities, including a straight Hamas government.

I do have a comment about its usefulness for electoral reformers in Canada, where the media is having trouble, understandably, knowing the difference between a mixed compensatory system (Germany, Scotland, etc.) and a mixed parallel system (Russia until recently, Japan still, and Palestine.)

And it's not just the media. Some people in PEI liked the MMP system until they found out that the more local seats the Conservatives won, the fewer list seats they would get. What they had somehow expected was the parallel system, not MMP.

Compensatory: the list seats are calculated so as to "top-up" the local seats such that the overall seat count matches the popular vote.

Parallel: the list seats are calculated to match the popular vote, and added to the local seat results.

The Canadian media are saying Palestine has a PR system; but in fact it's only half proportional, because it's a parallel system.

Can fair voting systems make a difference? in the Palestinian election, a half-proportional electoral system that does not accurately reflect the popular vote just handed majority power to a non-majority party. With 43% or 45% of the vote, Hamas did not win majority support, yet the voting system handed them majority control. This may or may not have consequences in Palestine, but it shows why the parallel system is not something electoral reformers advocate for Canada.

End of comment.

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 03:54 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Commenary from another neophyte who should probably be wary of reading to much into the election.

quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President George W. Bush said on Thursday the Palestinian election in which the militant group Hamas swept to a shock victory were a sign Palestinians were unhappy with the status quo but urged Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to remain in power.

It seems like the word is out among the cognisenti that one should be careful how one reads these poll results, and question the mandate given at a mere 42% of electorate.

Reuters

Perhaps Mr. Bush and Mr. Day would like to step to the issue of Mr. Harpers, measily little 36%, and offer suggestions on the kind of "coalition" they would like to see here. Perhaps a call for Mr. Martin to stay on with support from the more popular radical fringe the CPC?

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 04:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mr. Day of course wants us to think that the "radical" anti-Israeli fringe recieved less votes overall, than the more "moderate" Fatah. here is where a little knowledge of history might help Mr. Day.

What the Palestinians did is vote in the clear majority for parties and persons whom support the Intifada and have specifically not renounced violence against Israel, those being Hamas, the largest, followed by the Peoples Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and Marwan Barghouti who is presently languishing in an Israeli jail.

In other words, the radical strongly anti-Israeli, set in a variety of slates, won the election at over 50% of the vote.

And that is the rotten potato he will just have to swallow.

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
TCD
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posted 27 January 2006 07:50 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was probably naiive to think I actually could shape the discourse on a Mideast Thread, still I have to express amazement that out of the twenty odd posts here the overwhelming majority are about Wilf and his postings and their apropriateness.

Sigh.

To S1mon, and anyone else who cares, this election wasn't about the intifadah or the peace process or Israel at all for most Palestinian voters.

I'm not the only one saying this:

quote:
the election campaign was not a referendum on making peace or war with Israel. Hamas did not win because it promised to wipe out Israel. It won because it held out the promise of redressing some of the terrible imbalances, chaotic distortions and deep indignities that have plagued Palestinian domestic society in recent years. These include corruption and incompetence in the Palestinian Authority, lawlessness at the local level, fragmentation as a result of Israeli occupation policies, and a humiliating inability to protect the integrity, humanity and day-to-day normal life of Palestinian communities. Hamas won because Palestinians think it can do a better job than Fatah in restoring order and self-respect to their lives.
Rami Khouri in today's Globe.

From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 27 January 2006 08:24 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
TCD: Thanks for the above posting.

Cueball: you know that I respect your opinions which are usually well informed. In short you contribute much to Babble.
However I think Wilf does as well. You may not like or agree with his perspective (or mine for that matter) but I do not think his postings merit this current reaction. Whether there is some history (of I am not aware of) or not should not generate this type of reaction. If you truly believe that these issues are important (and they are) then, might I respectfully suggest you place your vigorous efforts where they truly belong; in the debate.
After all we are all talking about people who deserve civility and justice in Palestine & Israel, can't we be that way amongst our selves?

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 January 2006 08:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
I was probably naiive to think I actually could shape the discourse on a Mideast Thread, still I have to express amazement that out of the twenty odd posts here the overwhelming majority are about Wilf and his postings and their apropriateness.

Sigh.

I'm not the only one saying this: Rami Khouri in today's Globe.


I can see why that would be suprising to someone who is perhaps not as familiar with history of the forum. But then...

You don't find it vaguely odd that someone would promounce the Hamas victory a "tragedy" on one day then caution others not to speak to boldy to the issue who might see anything positive in it, on the basis of some number crunching, the next day?

Oddly, Wilf has this patern of asserting widely sweeping truths which support an Israeli reading of events, (such as the Hamas victory is a tragedy) yet seems to find it problematic others might be capable of asserting their own contrary views, (an example of which is the article you have just linked to) often on the basis technicalities or that not enough is "known," and that the issues are too complex to be "understood," by us "over here," and don't live "there," whom are in the dark about the mysterious and complex motivation which make it necessary for Israel to act as it does.

In other words Peach I don't find his manners civil, but actually I find them smug, and insincere, playing to trapping of civility and cautious analysis, as form, when it suits his politics but being completely dismissive when it doesn't. Much in the way he is dismissing the election results as somthing other than a very clear victory for Hamas, because it doesn't suit his world view.

I mean really are we disputing the fact that the CPC won the Canadian election by popular vote, beating every single compeditor, whatever we might feel about PR? The reality is that no other party got the most votes, so in that sense they won, wether or not it is a decisive mandate or not, is debatable, but they did win, it is the fact.

In no sense did Hamas lose, not in vote share and not in seats. They were the most popular contestant, only 8% short of the magic 50% mark. Certainly seat tallies are disproportianate to the overall vote share, but its not as if they got less votes than Fatah, and then someone picked up more seats through an abberation in the system.

But when it comes to Arabs, it seems Mr. Day feels he has the right to determine what the numbers mean, contrary to eveny principle of election politics I know. That is exactly what GWB and Condeleza Rice is doing. Arabs can't even vote without some of us thinking we know better who they voted for, or not.

I find it highly paternalistic, in a very English colonial way.

[ 27 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 27 January 2006 08:37 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
When US imperialism and its poodle in Britain object to something - it's pretty well a sure bet that it's something good. When the Canadian media can't be bothered to interview a spokesperson for the winning team and instead interviews avowed enemies of the victorious party - well then, a person doesn't need to know shit about what's happening on the ground. If the enemies of a just peace are pissed off..well then, this is a good thing.

Besides, I love the colour green.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 January 2006 10:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Never discount the effects of good propaganda.

"Hamas" (and "Hezbollah," and "Palestinian") sounds something close to "Schutzstaffel" to many Western ears.

CBC bingocallers are expressing "shock" over the result of the vote; Jon Stewart was beside himself with disbelief last night.

Had they been following the accurate reporting of Al Jazeera, they'd have known that Hamas had the backing of a great many Palestinian voters, for the reasons many have cited above.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 27 January 2006 11:26 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Hamas had the backing of a great many Palestinian voters, for the reasons many have cited above.

No doubt.

Let me repeat what I said earlier, for those who missed it.

"Fatah outsmarted itself. . . The idea was, Fatah would sweep the local seats as usual, enjoying the "winners' bonus," but letting the smaller parties have a taste of proportionality.

"But Hamas swept the local seats, and got the "winners' bonus" that Fatah had expected. . . .

"What an electoral tragedy."

The electoral tragedy was, of course, for Fatah. They tried to rig the electoral system in their favour, and it backfired.

My sympathies are, if it matters, normally with Fatah (and with Labour and Meretz). But in this case, I have to reluctantly say that Fatah got what it deserved.

However, when I hear American TV reporters talking about "the overwhelming Hamas victory" I wonder if they just can't count votes, or are they part of whipping up hysteria against the "evil Palestinians?"


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 January 2006 12:01 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:
[QB]


Let me repeat what I said earlier, for those who missed it.

QB]


You're assuming that we didn't scroll past your earlier post...and that we won't give the rest of this self-indulgent post a pass.

Get over yourself.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
TCD
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posted 28 January 2006 12:00 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

I can see why that would be suprising to someone who is perhaps not as familiar with history of the forum. But then...


I actually am familiar with the forum... which is why I never post here. It gets kinda silly.

I think Palestinians voted for clean government and I think that's a reasomable and fair thing to want.

I think the hysterical reaction coming out of the MSM here completely neglects that fact. I think some of the reaction among folks here - that this is a vote for a new intifadah, a vote for Islamist government, etc. - is wrong for the same reasons.

It's like saying Canadians recent vote for Harper was a vote in support of closer ties with the US.


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
FabFabian
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posted 28 January 2006 02:36 PM      Profile for FabFabian        Edit/Delete Post
SURPRISE! Bush reverts to blackmail stating that Hamas must renounce terrorism in order for the Palestinians to receive aid. How about Israel renounce terrorism in order for it to receive aid.

In other news, a 9 year-old Palestinian girl was shot dead for carrying a knapsack. When will those kids learn that carrying your schoolbooks in a knapsack means you make yourself a target for the psychotic IDF. Knapsack=bomb.


From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 January 2006 09:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by TCD:
I actually am familiar with the forum... which is why I never post here. It gets kinda silly.

I think Palestinians voted for clean government and I think that's a reasomable and fair thing to want.


Perhaps you wont find this silly. One of the things Palestinians are talking about, when they talk about "corruption" in the PA is not simply cronisism and patronage, ala Adscam. Though this plays a part, the backend of that story goes right back to the Oslo deal itself, and the creation of the PA.

Many felt, and continue to feel, that the Oslo deal was a clever way for Fatah (an organization the roots of which go back to several of the most important and influntial business families of the West Bank) to fether its own bed by taking control of lucrative contracts, and international aid. They also felt that prior to the second Intifada that Arafat and the PA were on the verge of giving up on the bedrock demand of the Right of Return, in order to further secure their key position of power in the Occupied Territories, selling out the Palestinian refugees.

This is to say that many feel that the PLO sold out the militant Palestinian struggle to feather their own beds, and it is upon this popular sentiment upon which Hamas has built up its popular support by continuing the militant struggle.

So, you see, what Palestinians talk about when they talk about the corruption within the PA, is not simply about "clean government" as we think about it here, but also about the whole process by which the PA came into being and the PLO secured its power base among Palestinians. So, as always in Palestinian life and politics, all things, even the way they adminster themselves is inescapably linked to the occupation, and relations with Israel.

These issues are not seperable, as neatly as you would have it. Being "militant" is an aspect of the anti-corruption campaign.

Edward Said:
Origianlly from the London Review of Books and archived by Zmag

quote:
The Palestinian Authority is locked into this astonishingly ingenious, if in the long run fruitless, arrangement via security committees made up of Mossad, the CIA and the Palestinian security services. At the same time, Israel and high-ranking members of the Authority operate lucrative monopolies on building materials, tobacco, oil etc (profits are deposited in Israeli banks). Not only are Palestinians subject to harassment from Israeli troops, but their own men participate in this abuse of their rights, alongside hated non-Palestinian agencies. These largely secret security committees also have a mandate to censor anything that might be construed as 'incitement' against Israel. Palestinians, of course, have no such right against American or Israeli incitements.

That is the "corruption" charge, which as you can see is directly linked to the management of the occupation by Israel and the PA, seen as allies, not contestants.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 January 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the same, and related subjects, from the horses mouth.

quote:
“We destroyed our economical status by the linkage of our economy with the Israeli (one) . . . For example, we pay 5.5 shekels (66p) per litre for petrol from Israel. From Egypt, one metre from our borders, it is one Egyptian pound (9p). In 2004 we paid to Israel in one year $186 million (£105 million) for electricity. If we took it from Egypt it will be $20 million. We have ten commercial agreements with the Arabic and Islamic world without taxes. Israel takes from us 17 taxes and they are destroying our industry.”

[SNIP]

“So we are not in need of the money, especially if it is at the expense of our national interest. But even so we ask everybody to help the Palestinian people, but without conditions. And they have the full right to come, watch and observe where the money went, where it is used. But if they are going to help Israel’s long-standing occupation this is unacceptable.”


finally an inteview with the winners.

And on from earlier in the same article:

quote:
“Negotiation is not a goal in itself. It is a method; it is not an objective. If Israel has anything to offer on the issues of halting attacks, withdrawal, releasing prisoners . . . then one thousand means can be found.

“Negotiation is not taboo. The political crime is when we sit with the Israelis and then come out with a wide smile to tell the Palestinian people that there is progress, when in fact, there is not. The Palestinian Authority (PA) negotiated with them for many, many years and reached lastly a deadlock. So why should we be a new copy, like Fatah, wasting the time and money of the people negotiating for nothing?”



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 29 January 2006 09:08 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A classic case of blowback.

quote:

In a conscious effort to undermine the Palestine Liberation Organization and the leadership of Yasser Arafat, in 1978 the government of then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin approved the application of Sheik Ahmad Yassin to start a "humanitarian" organization known as the Islamic Association, or Mujama. The roots of this Islamist group were in the fundamentalist Muslim Brotherhood, and this was the seed that eventually grew into Hamas – but not before it was amply fertilized and nurtured with Israeli funding and political support.

Begin and his successor, Yitzhak Shamir, launched an effort to undercut the PLO, creating the so-called Village Leagues, composed of local councils of handpicked Palestinians who were willing to collaborate with Israel – and, in return, were put on the Israeli payroll. Sheik Yassin and his followers soon became a force within the Village Leagues. This tactical alliance between Yassin and the Israelis was based on a shared antipathy to the militantly secular and leftist PLO: the Israelis allowed Yassin's group to publish a newspaper and set up an extensive network of charitable organizations, which collected funds not only from the Israelis but also from Arab states opposed to Arafat.


http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 January 2006 01:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More Hamas, less hummus?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 January 2006 01:23 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Actually, I like it better the other way around
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 02:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
A classic case of blowback.

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8449


1) Are you absolutley convinced that Hamas would not have come into existance without the support of the Muslim Brotherhood by Israel in the 1970's?

2) Even if so, is it the case that like anti-occupation militants would not have coallessed into alternate politcal formulation, with similar methods and goals, when faced with the apparent inability of the PLO/PA to circumnavigate entrenched Israeli ambitions of annexation and intransigence at the negotiating table?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 02:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Actually, I like it better the other way around


Less Sharon, more Shalom?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 January 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
With Sharon dying in a coma that was probably unecessary and certainly in poor taste.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 04:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon's life was in poor taste. Don't get into it with me, I very carefully avoided saying anything about it on the threads dedicated to his health problems. His legacy? A party dedicated to making the security barrier the official border of Israel.

I have very little reason to skirt the issue, so why egg me on. Shalom as in the sense of goodbye. How about that?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 January 2006 04:49 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
We all want shalom but your comment in my view is still in bad taste. People change. Sharon was looking for a way out. You may not have agreed wih his plan but it was more than Arafat ever tried. Leave him be and let us move on.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 05:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fuck Ariel Sharon.

You probably are completely unaware of how stupid you sound, pleading with me to be nice about Sharon given his near demise and then shitting on the dieceased Arafat in the very same paragraph.

It is symbolic of your entirely warped one-sided approach, to this issue.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 29 January 2006 05:13 PM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks, but I'd rather not...

Don't have some Jessica Alba to offer...?

(Sorry, couldn't resist! Now back to the topic!)

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Clog-boy ]


From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 January 2006 06:09 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The trotskyist line on Hamas. Interesting perspective.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 06:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Typical of Trotskyiest analysis it takes the prima facie "facts" as generated in the ruling ideology, and then inserts them into a rigid marxist framework turning those "facts" on their head but not questioning the underlying ideological structure that generated those "facts."

The Hamas victory was no suprise to anyone, particularly Israelis, whom no doubt, based on their significant intelligence assets in the occupied territories, suspected that this would be a likely outcome, if not the certain one.

There is of course a corollary among mainstream thinkers who insist on attempting to categorize competing analysis by overlaing like simplifications upon those who espouse them, even going as far a devising clever strategems to suss out who the commies are.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 January 2006 07:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The landslide has been accompanied by a torrent of propaganda in the western press about "terrorists" winning at the ballot box. More crude articles paint the Palestinians as a bloodthirsty, uncivilised mob. But the hypocrisy of the imperialist powers knows no limits. They have supported the Israeli capitalist state for decades. This regime has presided over one of the most brutal military occupations in the world using methods which can only be described as state terrorism. Benjamin Netanyahu, newly elected leader of the right-wing reactionary Likud Party, raged about "Hamastan" and the necessity to have nothing to do with "terrorists", the day after the election. And yet one of the founders of his party, Menachem Begin, was responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 when it was partly used as headquarters of the British Army and administration in Palestine. Ninety-one people died, one of the highest death tolls in any terrorist attack in the Middle East

This isn't news. Bibi has said for years that he'd never allow the creation of a "terrorist" (that's Bibispeak for "Palestinian") state bordering Israel.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
TCD
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posted 29 January 2006 08:15 PM      Profile for TCD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, I don't think I disagree with you on anything except the silliness of these discussions sometimes ("Fuck Ariel Sharon." for example)

I think Hamas won by tapping into fundamental frustrations about the Palestinian quality of life and offering solutions - which are pretty sensible. Palestinians are mad because they were promised a sovereign country and they're living in poverty while Israelis and certain politicians linked to Fatah get rich.

Hamas also won because they (like Stephen Harper) worked very hard to show people that they were not religious fanatics. Candidates like this emphasize that point So do moves like hiring an image consultant to re-tool their "brand".

Now, it will be interesting to see what happens.

The U.S. is not living up to it's democratic rhetoric (as Haroon Sidiqui notes in today's Star) and they're clearly hoping to isolate the new regime. Ironically, this will make them even more popular and marginalize Fatah even further.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: TCD ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 January 2006 09:01 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Fuck Ariel Sharon.

You probably are completely unaware of how stupid you sound, pleading with me to be nice about Sharon given his near demise and then shitting on the dieceased Arafat in the very same paragraph.

It is symbolic of your entirely warped one-sided approach, to this issue.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Cueball ]


I see you harague a dying person I make a comment on Arafat's inability to deal with policy and I'm the one thats "shitting". You need to look into the mirror.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 January 2006 09:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I heard from well informed sources that he has aids and the Israeli govenrment is covering up for Sharon's past homsexual activity, is there any truth to that?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Serendipity
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posted 29 January 2006 10:06 PM      Profile for Serendipity     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But what about islamic jihad! Does anyone know?
From: montreal | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 29 January 2006 11:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Serendipity:
But what about islamic jihad! Does anyone know?

They didn't win any seats (they didn't contest any, I don't think, as I read on Al Jazeera that they were boycotting the election).

Here are the final results:

Hamas - 74
Fatah - 45


A collection of nationalist, leftist and independent parties claimed the rest.

The list of the Martyr Abu Ali Mustapha - 3
The Alternative - 2
Independent Palestine - 2
The Third Way - 2
Various Independents - 4

web page

Aljazeera

AL-AHRAM

Al-Manar

quote:
Hamas' politburo chief Khaled Meshal said that the Palestinian party will prove as effective in politics and reform as in fighting Israel. Speaking in Syria, Meshal added that those who are counting on Hamas' defeat are wrong as the party has succeeded in the resistance and it will succeed in politics, reforms and change.

Meshal also said that Hamas will deal with the Oslo accords with firm reality adding that not acknowledging Israel does not mean "not taking steps that observe the current situation and its requirements. Meshaal said that Hamas is facing a great challenge.


Ashrawi: Israel alleges unilateralism by saying there's no peace partner

quote:
Palestinian Legislator Hanan Ashrawi, who was re-elected on a moderate platform Wednesday, said that she believes that Hamas will become more moderate and more pragmatic in government, while criticizing Israel for unilateralism.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 January 2006 11:35 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I see you harague a dying person I make a comment on Arafat's inability to deal with policy and I'm the one thats "shitting". You need to look into the mirror.

Come on, ohara, knock it off. You're making a mountain out of a molehill and for what? We don't have to love Sharon, nor do we have to shut up about him because he's dying, just like we wouldn't with Dubya, just like we didn't with Reagan, and just like you don't have to when it comes to Arafat. If you're taking it personally, then maybe skip over those posts.

Just let it go. You too, Cueball - your last post was pure trolling and you know it.

I think I'm going to make Peech the moderator.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 29 January 2006 11:49 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The former head of Shin Bet, who assassinated two leaders of Hamas in his term of office, has said that elected Hamas ministers are still terrorists, and should be killed.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 30 January 2006 02:09 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

I think I'm going to make Peech the moderator.



No thanks Michelle, I don't think I have he temperament or (your) patience.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 January 2006 02:56 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by nister:
The former head of Shin Bet, who assassinated two leaders of Hamas in his term of office, has said that elected Hamas ministers are still terrorists, and should be killed.

Now THAT'S funny.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 January 2006 03:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Just let it go. You too, Cueball - your last post was pure trolling and you know it.

[ 29 January 2006: Message edited by: Michelle ]



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 30 January 2006 03:42 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ex-Israeli spy chief: Hamas ministers may be hunted

Reuters - The architect of Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian militants said on Sunday Israel should hunt down wanted Hamas leaders even if they become ministers in a newly elected Palestinian government.

Avi Dichter, who used to head the Shin Bet security agency and is seen as a frontrunner for a top security post after Israel's March 28 general election, said he doubted Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas would remain in power, except as a "puppet leader", following Hamas's election victory. ...


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 January 2006 09:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Reuters - The architect of Israel's policy of assassinating Palestinian militants said on Sunday Israel should hunt down wanted Hamas leaders even if they become ministers in a newly elected Palestinian government.

Gee, and I thought Darrel Stinson was bad.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 January 2006 12:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bibi Speaks his Mind

quote:
While stumping in Netanya on Sunday, Likud Chairman MK Benjamin Netanyahu compared Hamas' victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections last week to the rise of the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s.

In related news...

Israel starving Palestinians for electing Hamas

quote:
Israel has threatened to starve and punish the Palestinian people for electing the Islamic Resistance movement, Hamas, in last week’s legislative elections in the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

Hamas won 74 seats of the 132 seats making up the Palestinian legislative Council.

Israeli officials quoted by the Israeli state-run radio said the Israeli government wouldn’t transfer past month’s revenues earmarked for the Palestinian Authority.

A senior government official said the decision not to transfer the funds, around $45 million was made in the wake of Hamas’s victory in the parliamentary elections.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
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posted 31 January 2006 12:59 AM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

While stumping in Netanya on Sunday, Likud Chairman MK Benjamin Netanyahu compared Hamas' victory in Palestinian parliamentary elections last week to the rise of the Nazis in Germany in the 1930s.

That's ironic--the real comparison is to his own election, which brought the Oslo agreement to a screetching halt.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 January 2006 03:27 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uh oh.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 31 January 2006 07:03 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[qb]Bibi Speaks his Mind

Well Bibi's "opinions" should be viewed in the context of an extreme and not popular view.

quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Israel starving Palestinians for electing Hamas
Israel has threatened to starve and punish the Palestinian people for electing the Islamic Resistance movement, Hamas, in last week’s legislative elections in the occupied Palestinian territories of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.
Israeli officials quoted by the Israeli state-run radio said the Israeli government wouldn’t transfer past month’s revenues earmarked for the Palestinian Authority.
A senior government official said the decision not to transfer the funds, around $45 million was made in the wake of Hamas’s victory in the parliamentary elections.

I totally agree it is completely unjust for Israel to not finance a government that has declared that its raison d'etre is for the destruction of Israel! The nerve!

[ 31 January 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 31 January 2006 09:11 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you support the starvation of the Palestinian people, even though by no means did each vote for Hamas equal a vote for the destruction of the State of Israel?

Well, you're consistent, anyway.

Bibi's a former Prime Minister, and a prominent member of the governing party. He's may be an extremist, but his views are quite mainstream.

And how, by the way, is his insistence that a Palestinian state never be created in any substantive degree different from a Hamas member calling for the destruction of Israel?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 February 2006 12:25 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I am all for the Palestinian people. Long may they live, in peace. I do not believe each vote = a vote for what Hamas stands for.

However they must now struggle with; determining what are the consequences of electing a government that has as it's prime objective (in its very charter) the murder of Jews and destruction of Israel.(Not to mention by it previous acts of terror.) It's like saying "give us your money but by the way we're going to kill you, or use it to purchase weapons to kill you." It's their dilemma. They cannot have their cake and eat it too.

Hopefully they will pressure their new government to keep the talks going and that I believe in turn will permit Israel to reciprocate in kind. I don't believe "Israel" wants to starve anyone

Secondly I respectfully disagree with you. Fortunately Bibi speaks for a small minority and mostly himself otherwise he would be in power. However, if a Hamas led government continues on its stated objective, this might feed the paranoia which could elect (God forbid) Bibi.

(BTW. The EU is very concerned about further funding to the new Hamas controlled PA while it maintains its stated objectives. I guess they are "consistent" too. )

[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Willowdale Wizard
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posted 01 February 2006 11:34 AM      Profile for Willowdale Wizard   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
interesting article in the new yorker on the regional impact of the Hamas win:

quote:
Shalom Harari is a former Israeli Military Intelligence officer who has been following the rise of Hamas—the Islamic Resistance Movement—for almost a quarter century. An awkward, voluble man of nearly sixty, Harari gained a measure of fame in intelligence circles when he began to tell his colleagues in internal reports that Hamas, founded in 1987, and initially a small outgrowth of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, would, with its platform of armed resistance, grassroots politics, and Islamic ideology, come to dominate Palestinian politics. Six years ago, while most of his colleagues were anticipating peace, Harari was rightly predicting a second intifada; that uprising led to the decline of Yasir Arafat’s creation and power base, the Fatah Party.

Last Thursday night, just hours after it was announced that Hamas had crushed Fatah in legislative elections––an event that caused some right-wing Israeli politicians to declare the birth of a terrorist “Hamastan”—Harari welcomed a visitor to his home, in the town of Yavne, near the Mediterranean. While most Israeli and Arab-language news channels were broadcasting scenes of Hamas supporters in the Gaza Strip waving green flags as they celebrated their stunning victory, Harari had tuned in to a seemingly tedious military ceremony on Egyptian state television. “Look at the wives of the generals,” he said. “Many of them are wearing traditional head scarves. This was not so ten years ago. And this tells you where we are heading. When the women of Egypt’s pro-Western military élite are dressed like that, you know that the Hamas victory is not about Palestine. It’s about the entire Middle East.”



From: england (hometown of toronto) | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3276

posted 01 February 2006 12:06 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More on the election results, by Prof. Matthew Søberg Shugart.
From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
S1m0n
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11427

posted 01 February 2006 02:32 PM      Profile for S1m0n        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

I totally agree it is completely unjust for Israel to not finance a government that has declared that its raison d'etre is for the destruction of Israel!

Israel ISN'T financing Palestine--the money belongs to the Palestinian people, not the government of Israel. Israel merely collects it in trust.

However, they regularly use this as a source of leverage to attempt to force the Palestinian Authority to bend to Israel's will.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
rabble-rouser
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posted 01 February 2006 03:47 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So far, Netanyahoo and Likud are not benefiting from the Hamas victory:

quote:

Had the elections taken place now, Kadima, which last week presented its impressive Knesset candidate list, would have won 43 seats (one seat less than in the previous week) and Labor would have won 21 seats (no change). The Hamas' victory did not strengthen Likud as predicted, and the party even lost a seat compared to last week (13 seats compared to 14).

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/677651.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 February 2006 06:06 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by S1m0n:

Israel ISN'T financing Palestine--the money belongs to the Palestinian people, not the government of Israel. Israel merely collects it in trust.

However, they regularly use this as a source of leverage to attempt to force the Palestinian Authority to bend to Israel's will.



Yes. Like convincing them not to commit acts of terror, I guess

World Bank: Palestinian fiscal problems are "unsustainale."

quote:
The Palestinian Authority's budget position has become increasingly unsustainable because of "uncontained" spending, particularly due to sharp increases in salaries and hiring, the World Bank said on Wednesday.

In an update of the PA's fiscal position released on Wednesday, the World Bank also said it had withheld a December payment from a multi-donor reform fund because the Palestinians had not fulfilled reform goals.


Finally:

quote:
Saudi Arabia and Qatar pledged on Wednesday to transfer $33 million to the Palestinian Authority to ease a severe budget crisis, a senior Palestinian government official said.

Egypt predicted on Wednesday that Iran would step in to fill the finance gap if the United States and Europe stop their aid to the Palestinian Authority.


[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 02 February 2006 04:36 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Why do the Americans and the Europeans want to control our lives, and tell us who we should have voted for?" Ramadan burst out Tuesday, while neighbors shopping for onions and tomatoes at a tiny roadside stand nodded their agreement.


"They all said to us, 'Have your democracy.' So we did," Ramadan said. "And now they don't like it, and want to punish us."


LA Times


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 02 February 2006 04:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

[ 01 February 2006: Message edited by: Peech ]


I am glad to see that the Arab world is stepping in once again to fill the void. Someone here argued not so long ago that it was the Arab world which was remiss in not sufficiently stepping up to the plate in regards to the supporting the refugees created by the Nakba, and the creation of Israel.

I assume you see these pledges as a positive development, given your past stance on Arab stinginess, in this regard?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 02 February 2006 06:48 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I am glad to see that the Arab world is stepping in once again to fill the void. Someone here argued not so long ago that it was the Arab world which was remiss in not sufficiently stepping up to the plate in regards to the supporting the refugees created by the Nakba, and the creation of Israel.

I assume you see these pledges as a positive development, given your past stance on Arab stinginess, in this regard?



We shall see won't we. As David Mamet so eloquently wrote: "money talks, bull shit walks."

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 02 February 2006 06:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was that Mamet? Thanks for that.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 02 February 2006 07:31 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Was that Mamet? Thanks for that.

You're welcome! In "American Buffalo."

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 02 February 2006 07:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hmm, that's weird - two different threads on the same subject going at the same time and it took me this long to notice! I'll close this one since it's getting long, and let everyone continue here.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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