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Author Topic: Ariel Sharon has had a "significant stroke"
robbie_dee
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posted 04 January 2006 05:05 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yahoo News

quote:
JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon was rushed to a Jerusalem hospital late Wednesday after feeling ill, hours before he was scheduled to undergo a procedure to correct a heart defect that contributed to his Dec. 18 stroke.

Israeli media reported that Sharon apparently suffered a second stroke or possibly a heart ailment, complaining of pressure or pain in his chest.

An announcement by the prime minister's office said Sharon, 77, was taken to Jerusalem's Hadassah Hospital, where he was scheduled to undergo the heart procedure Thursday.

Sharon's office said his personal physician was with him, and the Israeli leader was fully conscious. He was being taken by ambulance, a drive of more than an hour from his ranch in the Negev Desert in Israel's south, instead of by helicopter.


[ 04 January 2006: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 04 January 2006 05:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry to hear this. What can we say until we know? We mostly do very very well with strokes these days when people are lucky enough to get fast treatment.

But then there is always the basic logic of the body, which we don't understand all that well after all. So what can we do but wish him a good night.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 04 January 2006 05:33 PM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CNN reports:

-- Powers were transferred from Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to his deputy, after he had a "significant stroke," officials say.


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 04 January 2006 05:43 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This sounds bad. I am updating the thread title.

second Yahoo story

quote:
Dr. Shlomo Mor-Yosef said Sharon suffered a cerebral hemorrhage, is under general anesthetic and is receiving breathing assistance and was being taken for treatment. Cabinet Secretary Yisrael Maimon said Sharon's authorities have been transferred to his vice premier, Ehud Olmert.

In a brief statement outside the hospital, Mor-Yosef said Sharon had suffered "a significant stroke," adding that he was "under anesthetic and receiving breathing assistance." A few minutes later, Mor-Yosef emerged to say that initial tests showed Sharon had suffered a cerebral hemorrhage, or bleeding inside his brain.

Addressing reporters in English, Mor-Yosef said Sharon had "massive bleeding and was being transferred to an operating theater."

Channel 2 TV said Sharon was suffering from paralysis in his lower body. Analysts on Israeli TV stations said he life could be in danger. Channel 2 TV said he was taken into the hospital on a stretcher.


[ 04 January 2006: Message edited by: robbie_dee ]


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 04 January 2006 06:01 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yahoo Full Coverage: Israel

Yahoo: What Happens if Sharon Dies?


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 04 January 2006 06:06 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would be ironic if Peres takes over Kadima.

Anyway, it looks like even if Sharon survives he won't be in any shape to keep power or run in elections. This throws things into serious disarray. I suspect people who are now supporting Kadima will be hard pressed to go back to Likud and vote for Nethanyahu. Labour will likely have the largest number of seats after the election and form a government with Kadima which will now probably be second or third.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 05 January 2006 12:52 AM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
Anyway, it looks like even if Sharon survives he won't be in any shape to keep power or run in elections.

Indeed, the latest reports from the full coverage link above say that Sharon has survived the surgery, but doctors doubt he will be able to make a full recovery. Interesting times are ahead.


From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
blacklisted
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posted 05 January 2006 01:40 AM      Profile for blacklisted     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
why would his slow and painful death be anything but fitting.
http://www.indictsharon.net/
dylan wrote his epitaph in Masters of War.
"And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead"
i'm tired out with hypocritical sighs of sorrow for monsters who have lived far beyond their worth.

From: nelson,bc | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 05 January 2006 01:51 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How 'bout we wait 'til he's actually dead before we gloat?

Though it looks like we might not have long to wait.

PS: We already went over the appropriateness of celebrating the deaths of politically repugnant persons when Reagan croaked. I stand by my comments then.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Marc
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posted 05 January 2006 03:06 AM      Profile for Marc     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While I despise the policies that the man has espoused over his political career, I honestly hope that he pulls through.

Life is more important than political differences.


From: Calgary, AB | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 January 2006 07:16 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
It would be ironic if Peres takes over Kadima.

Anyway, it looks like even if Sharon survives he won't be in any shape to keep power or run in elections. This throws things into serious disarray. I suspect people who are now supporting Kadima will be hard pressed to go back to Likud and vote for Nethanyahu. Labour will likely have the largest number of seats after the election and form a government with Kadima which will now probably be second or third.


I'm not sure Kadima can hang together without Sharon. You may see a lot of its members go back to Likud. And you may see Netanyahoo crawling back to the prime minister's office over the body of another dead prime minister.


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 January 2006 07:40 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by blacklisted:
why would his slow and painful death be anything but fitting.

...

i'm tired out with hypocritical sighs of sorrow for monsters who have lived far beyond their worth.


blacklisted, what is offensive is the suggestion that the particular way in which someone (anyone) dies automatically has moral significance.

You seem to be implying there that strokes, or any kind of "slow and painful death" (which strokes aren't necessarily, btw) are a judgement upon bad people, which is immediately hurtful to much of the rest of the world.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 07:47 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I hope he recovers ... and can stand in the dock one day for his role in the Sabra and Chatila massacres.

On a more political level, I have been reading Haaretz, trying to get a sense of whether this crisis situation can benefit Labour. Their new leader Amir Peretz is interesting in many ways.

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Merowe
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posted 05 January 2006 08:39 AM      Profile for Merowe     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, pardon my coldbloodedness, but hasn't the fat old fuck been on the planet way too long already?

I've no patience, I'm afraid, with sentimental commiseration for the likes of this monster, largest landowner in Israel, veteran of more than one massacre, Shabra and Shatila; his brutal policies did the Israeli and Palestinian peoples incalculable harm. I just need to recall that bomb dropped on an apartment building, the one that killed 14 innocents besides the intended victim, an operation he signed off on, to scatter any lingering humanity I might have mustered for him.

I can only, like Lagatta, regret that his passing will spare this war criminal the jail time he so richly deserves.


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ohara
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posted 05 January 2006 08:46 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I take it you felt the same way when Yassir Arafat was dying...though I did not see a similar post.
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lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 08:50 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz has a commentary piece, describing this as the probable end of Sharon's one-man-show in Israeli politics.

Think Haaretz is getting a huge number of hits now (from Eastern North America, Europe and Israel) - the site is loading much more slowly than usual.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 January 2006 08:55 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I take it you felt the same way when Yassir Arafat was dying...though I did not see a similar post.

Oh, then I think you weren't reading closely, ohara. There were enough people around at the time to remind us that Arafat's hands were not clean, not of blood nor, or so it was claimed, of ill-gotten gains.

And that in spite of Arafat's obvious historical importance, which you probably wouldn't want to notice either.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 05 January 2006 09:03 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Didn't Arafat succumb to a brain hemmorhage, as well? Weird.

Anyway, I hope that Sharon recovers. Maybe this near-death experience will change his outlook. Maybe he'll realize that all life is precious, and will stop expanding the West Bank settlements and ordering extrajudicial assassinations via indiscriminant bombs.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 12:20 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As usual, our old friend Berlusconi has not lost an opportunity to put his foot in it:

world leaders react to Sharon stroke

quote:
SILVIO BERLUSCONI, Italian Prime Minister:

This is a very painful event on a human level and an absolutely negative one on the political level. [Israel] faces a difficult future in a moment that might have been historic.

There is very, very little hope [for his recovery]. Let's hope for a miracle, a miracle which would be extraordinarily important.

Israeli sources tell us that, even if he should live, there would be no possibility for him to stay in politics.



From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 January 2006 12:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A question to any babbler medicos around:

Is there any connection between the blood-thinners that Sharon was prescribed (which he needed, given the danger of clotting) and the bleeding in his brain? Would one be right in seeing a double-bind here for his doctors?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 January 2006 12:38 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes.
quote:

Such medicines carry serious risks, leaving patients vulnerable to a range of bleeding complications, including severe bleeds in the brain like the one that has left Mr. Sharon unconscious and fighting for his life. The risk is particularly high if the patient also has high blood pressure.

The medicines are also difficult to take and monitor because their thinning effects vary significantly from patient to patient, requiring frequent blood tests to detect excessive bleeding tendencies.

The decision to treat the hole in Mr. Sharon's heart - with all the attendant risks of blood thinners - surprised many neurologists, because recent studies have concluded that such holes are not likely to cause strokes in the elderly.

"We've been scratching out heads about the care, since we would not recommend closure," of the hole Dr. Fink said, noting that, at 77, Mr. Sharon presumably had many other risks for stroke.

It is not known whether Mr. Sharon had high blood pressure or which blood thinner, heparin or warfarin, he was taking. But bleeding in the brain in a patient on blood thinners has a terrible prognosis, Dr. Fink said. "The blood expands so rapidly there's little that can be done."


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/05/international/05medical.html

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: josh ]


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 05 January 2006 02:09 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Some visceral comments here from those purportedly
concerned with human rights. Sharon's detractors are no better than he is, if they celebrate his lingering death.

From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 05 January 2006 02:13 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
white rabbit, I don't know who you're addressing, but I did not ask my question in any kind of celebratory spirit at all. I ask for immediate practical reasons. And I do not believe there is anything wrong in laypersons learning as much as they can about things that are bound to happen to many of us, sooner or later - quite the contrary.

No one's illness is a moral metaphor: we all die.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 05 January 2006 02:28 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wasn't addressing your comments skdadl. It is quite distasteful for posters to express delight at the prospects of someone's death. Something tells me though that this response might be expected at the
impending death of any Israeli leader. A certain level of respect is required for no other reason than he is the democratically-elected leader of his country.

From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 03:02 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I agree with skdadl about illness as metaphor, and know or have known lots of good, bad and indifferent folks who've had strokes (major or minor). I wish Sharon the best of health so he can stand trial for his misdeeds, and alas, don't think that is going to happen now.

But no, a dab of Schadenfreude is not on the same level as some of the things one could accuse Sharon of, such as his complicity in Sabra and Chatila (think he had to stand down from his cabinet position after that). Lots of Israelis don't like him either, y'know.

I'm wondering whether this will give any more of a chance to Amir Peretz (Labour, and a spokesperson for poor Sephardic workers) and whether his election would change things at all - not that he has a radically different policy towards Palestine, but he might have other priorities, putting butter* before guns...

*(I suppose to observe kashrut, with meat meals, schmalz for the Ashkenazi, olive oil for the Sephardim ... and of course I'm with the Sephardim about that... )

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 05 January 2006 03:07 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I knew this was coming, but I thought it would come first from the ultra right-wingers in Israel.

quote:

The Rev. Pat Robertson said Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is being punished by God for dividing the Land of Israel. Robertson, speaking on the “700 Club” on Thursday, suggested Sharon, who is currently in an induced coma, and former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, assassinated by an Israeli extremist in 1995, were being treated with enmity by God for dividing Israel. “He was dividing God’s land,” Robertson said. “And I would say, Woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course to appease the E.U., the United Nations or the United States of America. God says, This land belongs to me. You better leave it alone.”

http://jta.org/page_view_breaking_story.asp?intid=770


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 03:09 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh horrors.

I think anti-semitic hard-arsed Zionist Christian fundamentalists are the utter depths of discourse...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 January 2006 03:56 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:
Some visceral comments here from those purportedly
concerned with human rights. Sharon's detractors are no better than he is, if they celebrate his lingering death.

Silly, silly person. I take it that people who play "Grand Theft Auto" and enjoy the violence and misogyny are also no better than Clifford Olson? Hint: Thoughtcrime and speechcrime are not "no better than" large scale killing.

The principled part of me, against capital punishment and all that, hopes the bastard survives with as good a quality of life is compatible with staying the hell out of politics. But it's hard to muster much visceral enthusiasm for that scumbucket's continued life. And I have to say, if it was going to happen, I consider the timing truly excellent for the future of Israel, Palestine and the Middle East, and the possible survival of lots of people who might otherwise be killed, Palestinian, Israeli, and potentially Iranian etc.
That is, it's after he started up his extra party, but before he'd been able to build it up. If he could have captured the moderate Likud and centrist Labour vote, leaving Likud with radical settlers in charge, it could potentially have become like the Canadian Liberals, a centre of gravity able to consistently do very bad things and get re-elected by saying "but you don't want to elect Likud, they'd do much worse!"

As things stand, it's a spoiler that should if anything help Labour under its new leader, who while doubtless far from perfect is certainly a breath of fresh air by Israeli mainstream political standards. I wouldn't have advocated extrajudicially executing him to get that result, but if Ariel Sharon's dead body happens to hand us a halfway-reasonable Israeli government for the first time in who knows how long, I'm not going to shed a lot of tears.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 05 January 2006 04:02 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:
A certain level of respect is required for no other reason than he is the democratically-elected leader of his country.

No, it most certainly is not. Quite the reverse--many things are fair comment said about leaders of countries and other politicians that would be libel said about a private citizen.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 January 2006 04:59 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

Oh, then I think you weren't reading closely, ohara. There were enough people around at the time to remind us that Arafat's hands were not clean, not of blood nor, or so it was claimed, of ill-gotten gains.

And that in spite of Arafat's obvious historical importance, which you probably wouldn't want to notice either.



The question was put to one particular poster Skdadl. I know there were others here who commented on Arafat's bloody legacy.

As for my acknowledgement of Arafat's historical importance, you should not make assumptions. I understand as well as you his historical importance.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 05 January 2006 05:27 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for my acknowledgement of Arafat's historical importance, you should not make assumptions. I understand as well as you his historical importance.

Likewise, many of us are well aware of Sharon's "historical importance". And with the means he has had at his disposal over the years, he managed to be quite a bit more "important" than Arafat did, at least in terms of sheer numbers.


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 05 January 2006 06:20 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

Silly, silly person. I take it that people who play "Grand Theft Auto" and enjoy the violence and misogyny are also no better than Clifford Olson? Hint: Thoughtcrime and speechcrime are not "no better than" large scale killing.



What does Grand Theft Auto have to do with this?

You are a patronising and dismissive person. I have found the "progressives" here to be elitist and arrogant.

It is wrong to gloat over anyone's death no matter how much you despise them.


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 January 2006 06:48 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ronb:

Likewise, many of us are well aware of Sharon's "historical importance". And with the means he has had at his disposal over the years, he managed to be quite a bit more "important" than Arafat did, at least in terms of sheer numbers.


Im not sure I agree with you. Arafat won the Nobel Peace prize remember

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 05 January 2006 07:08 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just in case anyone wanted to compare and contrast ohara and white rabbit's lily-white hand-wringing with the various sniping that took place, reverso when Arafat died:

Look no further.


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 05 January 2006 07:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Things look very dim for Sharon. Hadassah hospital is reporting massive brain damage and another report in Haaretz (there is, as you might expect, in-depth coverage on the site) reports a hospital neurologist says his chances of surviving are very slim.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 January 2006 07:20 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks eroused...interestingly contrary to what Skdadl told us I didnt see many (if any) posts that wrote on the issue of Arafat's bloddy hands
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 05 January 2006 07:37 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

You are a patronising and dismissive person. I have found the "progressives" here to be elitist and arrogant.

It is wrong to gloat over anyone's death no matter how much you despise them.


I don't think there's any room for Sharon fans to be self-righteous. After all, when Arafat died his opponents made comments such as the following from USENET:

DING DONG, THE BASTARD'S DEAD!!

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Red Albertan
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posted 05 January 2006 07:47 PM      Profile for Red Albertan        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Thanks eroused...interestingly contrary to what Skdadl told us I didnt see many (if any) posts that wrote on the issue of Arafat's bloddy hands

Yes, Arafat had bloody hands too. However, if the land of the Palestinians hadn't been stolen by the British, and they wouldn't have had to live in refugee camps for generations, there would have been no need for the violence. The Palestinians have been fighting for their land, not dissimilar to how the Iraqis are fighting for theirs. In both cases, both sides have their hands bloody, but the Palestinians and the Iraqis are somewhat more justified in their violent resistance. Just because a superpower - Britain at the time - decided to carve out the home of the Palestinians to be the new home of the Israelis, necessitating the forceful eviction of the Palestinians from their lands, doesn't make Israel a "righteous cause".

Besides, even the simplest step that could have possibly avoided all that bloodshed was completely ignored by the Israelis, because there was supposed to have been a sovereign Palestinian State created at the same time the State of Israel was created, but while Israel got theirs, they did whatever possible to hinder the Palestinians from receiving theirs in a peaceful solution.

As far as Sharon personally is concerned, it is my sincere wish he will die a death in accordance with the pain the terrorist has caused to the population of the refugee camps he raided in the early 80's. The sooner he dies the better. The world will be a better place without that bloodthirsty warhawk.


From: the world is my church, to do good is my religion | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 05 January 2006 09:00 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
eroused?
bloddy?

I'll try and forgive you because you've apparently imbibed this evening.

That might explain why you missed the postings by JBG. And Zaklamont. And Frac Tal. And The Oatmeal Savage. It might even excuse you not bothering to search down the other 2-3 relevant threads (try page 12ish of the 'show all threads' setting for this particular forum) and find that others also decided to revel in the death of Arafat. Unfortunately, when they were called on it, they tended to defend themselves with accusations of 'blood on his hands'.

You'll note (except that you won't, and will continue to post the same ignorant smears uninformed by any troubling yourself to do basic research), that those who have condemned Sharon on this thread have generally been told off for their comments. But don't let that get in the way of posting yet another anti-semitism smear, eh?


From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 05 January 2006 09:02 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

I don't think there's any room for Sharon fans to be self-righteous. After all, when Arafat died his opponents made comments such as the following from USENET:

DING DONG, THE BASTARD'S DEAD!!

[ 05 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


I am not a Sharon fan. What is self-righteous about expecting a certain level of decorum? From what I have read, Sharon's detractors are every bit as extremist as they accuse him of being.


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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posted 05 January 2006 09:40 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ah. Noted. Two wrongs *do* in fact make a right. Winger.
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
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posted 05 January 2006 11:48 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Having watched a family member die from a neurological illness, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Not Ariel Sharon, not Saddam Hussein, not George Bush.

I'd echo skdadl's comments. We will eventually all experience the process of our own death, and before that we will probably all experience the death of a family member. It may be relatively quick, or it may be lingering. Both ways suck, while at the same time containing a very limited silver lining of sorts (getting things over with sooner versus more time to come to terms with things).

There is no justice in how soon people die, or the way they die -- as you may have noticed, illness and death are appallingly arbitrary. Sometimes a person receives rewards or punishment for their behaviour while alive, but if not, you just have to hope that there's some kind of justice after death.


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 06 January 2006 02:13 AM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's just it. There's all too many scumbags who managed to escape justice for their crimes through dying. And for me, as someone who doesn't believe in an afterlife, that means they've escaped forever.

Sharon's (seemingly) impending death should be a cause for sombre reflection that such criminals can walk free amongst us until their dying day, not a cause for celebration or gloating.

For those reasons, I'll especially rue the day when this charming fellow kicks the bucket.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 January 2006 03:54 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indeed. Pinochet in Chile and Videla in Argentina (and so many others) have suffered few consequences; Kissinger none at all (except for becoming persona non grata in several countries). I almost gagged when I saw the murderous bastard invited to the inauguration of the Jewish Museum in Berlin. Kissinger in Berlin.

(Babblers may recall that the Dirty War in Argentina was also one of the worst mass murders of Jewish people since the Holocaust - a disproportionate number of the victims were Jewish and the junta was viciously anti-semitic. This did not seem to cause Kissinger many qualms, despite his being a teenage refugee from Nazi Germany)...

Yeah, Pol Pot died in his bed as well... Nah, there is little justice in such matters.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 06 January 2006 04:14 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
No false sympathy.

I hope the fucker dies.

Soon.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 06 January 2006 07:46 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Besides, even the simplest step that could have possibly avoided all that bloodshed was completely ignored by the Israelis, because there was supposed to have been a sovereign Palestinian State created at the same time the State of Israel was created, but while Israel got theirs, they did whatever possible to hinder the Palestinians from receiving theirs in a peaceful solution.


This is just factually incorrect.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 06 January 2006 11:10 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Party time in Iran!
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 January 2006 11:25 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are Pat Robertson and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in some kind of contest for most obnoxious fundamentalist jerk, hijacking the attributes of the God they supposedly worship?

Sheeesh.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 06 January 2006 12:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's a tight race, isn't it.

Except RB just reminded us, on another thread, of a discussion we had over a year ago about Stockwell Day's decision, as CPC foreign-affairs critic, not to express regrets at the time of Arafat's death because David Frum had said Arafat had AIDS.

So the field is crowded, lagatta.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 06 January 2006 12:27 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Poll indicates Kadima would still garner the most seats without Sharon:
quote:

If elections were held Thursday, a Kadima headed by Olmert would win win 40 Knesset seats, according to the poll, conducted by the Dialog company under the supervision of Prof. Camil Fuchs.

Should Tzipi Livni step into Sharon's shoes, Kadima would get 38 Knesset seats. Were Peres to take over leadership of the party, Kadima would win 42 seats - exactly the number of seats it would have garnered four days ago, when Sharon was still healthy.

The survey polled 650 people representing the general public, and was conducted less than one day after Sharon suffered a severe stroke.

. . . .

With Olmert - considered the leading candidate - heading Kadima, Labor loses one seat and drops from 19 seats to 18, as does Likud, which drops from 14 to 13.


http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/666984.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 06 January 2006 12:33 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pat Robertson is at it again....

Pat Robertson links Sharon's stroke to God's wrath

AP - Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested Thursday that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's stroke was divine punishment for "dividing God's land."

"God considers this land to be his," Robertson said on his TV program "The 700 Club." "You read the Bible and he says 'This is my land,' and for any prime minister of Israel who decides he is going to carve it up and give it away, God says, 'No, this is mine.'" ...


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 06 January 2006 12:35 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now, we only have to hear from the hardline Jewish-fundamentalist settler types!
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
robbie_dee
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posted 06 January 2006 02:38 PM      Profile for robbie_dee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Now, we only have to hear from the hardline Jewish-fundamentalist settler types!

Ask and ye shall receive:

AP: Opinions vary on prayer for Sharon

quote:
"We aren't praying for this evil person," said Baruch Marzel, a leader in a Jewish settlement in the West Bank city of Hebron. "He went against God. He went against the Bible. He betrayed his own country."

Last year, a group of Jewish extremists took part in an ancient curse ceremony called "pulsa denura" that called for Sharon's death.



From: Iron City | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 06 January 2006 07:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've heard rumors he's already dead, so I guess the bastards will crow over it.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 06 January 2006 08:49 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
Poll indicates Kadima would still garner the most seats without Sharon:

Well, sure--*if* elections were held right now. But they won't be, it'll be a couple months and things change.

Meanwhile, whiterabbit--your initial post didn't say it was *bad* to gloat over Sharon's death. You said it was *just as bad* as Sharon's own actions. That is, anyone here who posted that they would be pleased if he died is in fact a war criminal. So sorry, but that's very silly, and rather offensive in its implications. If you'd just said it was bad I wouldn't have argued. You instead indulged in a bit of hyperbole and loss of proportion. I pointed out a parallel that described how hyperbolic it was. Incidentally, while you personally may or may not be on the right, I have found this lack of sense of proportion to be typical of the right, from O'Reilly, Coulter and Robertson on down.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Toedancer
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posted 06 January 2006 10:14 PM      Profile for Toedancer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Indeed, there are rumours he was pronounced dead today by his physicians, and rumours that say he is definitely brain dead. At least 5 hours ago, when I was listening to the radio, I had heard the physicians were playing his favourite CD by Hank Williams in his room.

When I heard that, I could hear the bell toll.

Must have been some curse ceremony.


From: Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 06 January 2006 10:24 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Most Israeli voters want some sort of settlement with the Palestinians. Daniel Pipes was almost salivating in the National Post at the thought that Sharon's removal from the scene will mean a return to the "status quo" and a likely Likud victory but I think voters who have intellectually broken with Likud to support Kadima will not be rushing into Nethanyahu's arms. Kadima may not last but the Likud mold has been broken and Sharon's death or incapacity will not put it back together.

[ 06 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 January 2006 10:39 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't see why anything should change with Sharon out of the picture. While he may have had more blood on his hands personally, he merely followed the same path as that taken by other Israeli leaders.

Israel is a democracy, after all. Sharon represents the Israeli National Will.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
FabFabian
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posted 07 January 2006 01:14 AM      Profile for FabFabian        Edit/Delete Post
I watched Studio 2 this evening and the consequence of Sharon's status was brought up. Apparently, something in the Israeli constitution allows for the substitute PM to hand over the reigns of power to the leader of the most populous party. This would mean Netanyahu would become PM .
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 07 January 2006 01:47 AM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by FabFabian:
I watched Studio 2 this evening and the consequence of Sharon's status was brought up. Apparently, something in the Israeli constitution allows for the substitute PM to hand over the reigns of power to the leader of the most populous party. This would mean Netanyahu would become PM .

I believe that's after the Acting PM has been in office for 100 days. The elections are scheduled within that timeframe.

In any case, I don't think Likud is the largest party in the Knesset at present.


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Toedancer
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posted 07 January 2006 02:00 AM      Profile for Toedancer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sheesh, that's scary. If memory serves me, and I have no url for it, I remember Pat Robertson and Evangelicals loving Benjamin. Really sophisticated Media Control back then. And the plan was Israel would be Ground Zero. Just can't jog my memory enough though to even look for it. This is going to be interesting.
From: Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 07 January 2006 02:14 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:


Meanwhile, whiterabbit--your initial post didn't say it was *bad* to gloat over Sharon's death. You said it was *just as bad* as Sharon's own actions. That is, anyone here who posted that they would be pleased if he died is in fact a war criminal. So sorry, but that's very silly, and rather offensive in its implications. If you'd just said it was bad I wouldn't have argued. You instead indulged in a bit of hyperbole and loss of proportion. I pointed out a parallel that described how hyperbolic it was. Incidentally, while you personally may or may not be on the right, I have found this lack of sense of proportion to be typical of the right, from O'Reilly, Coulter and Robertson on down.


When I stated that those who delight at Sharon's imminent death are "just as bad as he is", I meant that they have an equal disregard for human life as they accuse him of, when they cite his army record. The interpretation of his actions while in the Israeli army is a matter of opinion. He is the leader of the Jewish people and I suspect that whoever replaces him will be equally vilified in due course.


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 07 January 2006 02:27 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The interpretation of his actions while in the Israeli army is a matter of opinion.

I think you mispledded "history" above. His role in the massacres is well documented. He bears the ultimate responsibility, as defence minister at the time. BBC report...


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2006 03:20 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The interpretation of his actions while in the Israeli army is a matter of opinion.

You're right, but I'll stick to my opinion that commanding death squads and overseeing massacres are actions that merit criticism.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 07 January 2006 03:33 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

I think you mispledded "history" above. His role in the massacres is well documented. He bears the ultimate responsibility, as defence minister at the time. BBC report...




Thank you for the link, which doesn't explain if Sharon's involvement was one of omission or commission. Nor does it explain if Sharon as defence minister at the time had moral or legal culpability in the massacres that were carried out by Christians.

From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 07 January 2006 04:12 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

You're right, but I'll stick to my opinion that commanding death squads and overseeing massacres are actions that merit criticism.


The Kahan Commission that investigated this tragedy noted that Sharon committed errors of omission not commission. Then again its much easier to claim that he was a commander of a death squad and suggest that he "oversaw" a massacre since it would tend to have readers see Israel in the light you wish to portray...even if its wrong.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 07 January 2006 05:12 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, white rabbit:
quote:
He is the leader of the Jewish people

Ariel Sharon is, or was, the leader of the Israeli state. The Jewish people has no leader, and the Jewish religion no Pope. (That is one of its greatest merits).

A friend of mine in France who wore the yellow star as a child is very annoyed by the very idea that she should have any connection with Israel - and hasn't got much use for it or any other State.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 07 January 2006 05:21 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Sorry, white rabbit:

Ariel Sharon is, or was, the leader of the Israeli state. The Jewish people has no leader, and the Jewish religion no Pope. (That is one of its greatest merits).


The state of Israel is more than a political entity; it is viewed as a homeland by Jews worldwide and its PM is the unofficial leader of those people.

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: white rabbit ]


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 07 January 2006 05:35 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You're wrong for the reasons stated by lagatta.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 07 January 2006 05:38 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
While I would agree that the state of Israel is viewed as the Jewish homeland, its elected leader does not represent world Jewry. He/She is the leader of Israel's democratic government as elected by Israelis.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 07 January 2006 05:40 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

The state of Israel is more than a political entity; it is viewed as a homeland by Jews worldwide and it's PM is the unofficial leader of those people.


I've never heard people in the Jewish community refer to Sharon or any Israeli PM as "our leader" (unless, maybe, if they're Israeli). Whiterabbit, are you actually Jewish or are you just presuming?

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Transplant
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posted 07 January 2006 05:41 PM      Profile for Transplant     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:
The state of Israel is more than a political entity; it is viewed as a homeland by Jews worldwide and it's PM is the unofficial leader of those people.

Sounds to me like a nice construct to equate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.


From: Free North America | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 07 January 2006 05:43 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My suspicion too.

And frankly, the idea that Israel is "more than a political entity", but the physical embodiment of an abstract concept is a large part of the reason why we've had 50 years of interminable conflict. Because that abstract concept keeps running aground on the decidedly non-abstract Arabs who are in the way.

If Israel could settle for just being another political entity like the other 190-odd political entities in the world, we'd be a lot better off.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 07 January 2006 06:59 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think it's unlikely but should Sharon recover to the degree that he can go back to work he will have the "Lucien Bouchard" effect in his favour and do very well in the election.
quote:
Dr. Cohen called Sharon "very strong" and told interviewers that not only does he believe Sharon will survive, he will "be in good shape." However, he added that Sharon is very likely to sustain cognitive brain damage.

Dr. Cohen qualified his comments, however, noting that it is far too early to predict Sharon's future for certain. "I've seen so many of these cases. There are patients in this state that do not survive and there are those who return to work. The range of possibilities is so wide that it is too hard to predict."



Some improvement in Sharon's condition

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 07 January 2006 07:24 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by beluga2:
My suspicion too.

And frankly, the idea that Israel is "more than a political entity", but the physical embodiment of an abstract concept is a large part of the reason why we've had 50 years of interminable conflict.


The US also defines itself as more than a political entity, but the embodiment of a concept.


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
aka Mycroft
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posted 07 January 2006 07:29 PM      Profile for aka Mycroft     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

The US also defines itself as more than a political entity, but the embodiment of a concept.


So, either continuously or at various times has the Soviet Union, Cuba, the People's Republic of China, Ireland, France, Germany, Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea and even Canada. What's your point? Many, perhaps most countries think they're special or embody some sort of value or meaning that transcends geography. So what?

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
white rabbit
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posted 07 January 2006 07:44 PM      Profile for white rabbit     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by aka Mycroft:

So, either continuously or at various times has the Soviet Union, Cuba, the People's Republic of China, Ireland, France, Germany, Iran, Iraq, Syria, North Korea and even Canada. What's your point? Many, perhaps most countries think they're special or embody some sort of value or meaning that transcends geography. So what?

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: aka Mycroft ]



I was simply pointing out that Israel is not the only country to do so.


From: NS | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 07 January 2006 10:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
The Kahan Commission that investigated this tragedy noted that Sharon committed errors of omission not commission. Then again its much easier to claim that he was a commander of a death squad and suggest that he "oversaw" a massacre since it would tend to have readers see Israel in the light you wish to portray...even if its wrong.

I don't have to "claim" anything. Ariel Sharon commanded, nay founded, "Unit 101" which was a death squad.

quote:
Sharon was the one to pioneer collective punishment and mass murder in the early 1950s as the creator and commander of Israel's first notorious death squad, Unit 101. His early military career was spent in killing: not enemy soldiers but civilians in villages such as Kibyia. In Gaza during the early 1970s, he instigated a reign of terror, supposedly designed to end Palestinian resistance to the occupation. It was really another phase in his lifelong struggle to make as many Palestinians as possible flee their own homeland. He destroyed large parts of Beirut, and killed tens of thousands in his Lebanon war of 1982, in his obsessive hunt of Arafat and the PLO.

web page

As for the Kahan Commission, it's whitewash of Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacres (look up "tragedy" in a dictionary - this doesn't count) is a farce.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Contrarian
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posted 07 January 2006 11:12 PM      Profile for Contrarian     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mark Levine thinks the end of the Sharon era will make little difference to the Palestinians.
quote:
...Therefore, no matter who is elected Prime Minister in March, Israel's negotiating positions will not change, because Israel is in a strong enough position to maintain them while Palestinians are too weak to challenge them. Yet while Israel has crushed the intifada, it has not crushed Palestinian society to the point that it will accept a political agreement based on these red lines. Therefore, we can expect that the conflict will continue to cycle between periods of violence and negotiation while Israel strengthens its "facts on the ground" and Palestinians search for new strategies to prevent Israeli red lines from becoming their realities. As for the US, it will continue to back Israel, thereby ensuring the status quo of the last five years continues for the foreseeable future...

From: pretty far west | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 07 January 2006 11:51 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for the Kahan Commission, it's whitewash of Sharon's involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacres (look up "tragedy" in a dictionary - this doesn't count) is a farce.


Sadly I could have predicted this would be your response.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 January 2006 12:15 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Sadly"!

Say, Mishei, what have you done with ohara's body?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 08 January 2006 12:37 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Once again your responses are all to predictable
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 January 2006 01:32 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
posted 03 January 2006 02:14 PM

Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
...and now for the less predictable responses...


And your responses are still obtusely derivative.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 January 2006 06:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is he dead yet?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 08 January 2006 06:33 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nope, according to official statements he's still alive. They recently performed a brainscan, in order to make an estimate of the best time to wake him up again from his induced coma. Survival chances are very high, though his mental capacity will be affected severely. The doctors have ruled out a return in politics.
From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 January 2006 06:39 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Brain dead?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Clog-boy
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posted 08 January 2006 06:50 AM      Profile for Clog-boy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Dunno, doesn't sound that way, though. Probably some heavy speech impediment and other locomotive (dunno if it's the right word?) symptoms, but at this points it would only be guessing.
From: Arnhem, The Netherlands | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 08 January 2006 08:05 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Clog-boy, I think the word we use (in North America, anyway) in that context is "motor."

Everything I've read sounds a little more dire than that, but as you say, everyone's just guessing until they try to bring Sharon around.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 January 2006 06:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The subsequent Israeli Kahan commission of enquiry into this atrocity provided absolute proof that Israeli soldiers saw the massacre taking place. The evidence of a Lieutenant Avi Grabovsky was crucial. He was an Israeli deputy tank commander and reported what he saw to his higher command. "Don't interfere," the senior officer said.

Ever afterwards, Israeli embassies around the world would claim that the commission held Sharon only indirectly responsible for the massacre. It was untrue. The last page of the official Israeli report held Sharon "personally responsible". It was years later that the Israeli-trained Phalangist commander, Elie Hobeika, now working for the Syrians, agreed to turn state's evidence against Sharon - now the Israeli Prime Minister - at a Brussels court.

The day after the Israeli attorney general declared Sharon's defence a "state" matter, Hobeika was killed by a massive car bomb in east Beirut. Israel denied responsibility.

US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld traveled to Brussels and quietly threatened to withdraw Nato headquarters from Belgium if the country maintained its laws to punish war criminals from foreign nations. Within months, George W Bush had declared Sharon "a man of peace". It was all over.

In the end, Sharon got away with it, even when it was proved that he had, the night before the Phalangists attacked the civilians of the camp, publicly blamed the Palestinians for the murder of their leader, President-elect Bashir Gemayel. Sharon told these ruthless men that the Palestinians had killed their beloved "chief". Then he sent them in among the civilian sheep - and claimed later he could never have imagined what they would do in Chatila.

Only years later was it proved that hundreds of Palestinians who survived the original massacre were interrogated by the Israelis and then handed back to the murderers to be slaughtered over the coming weeks

...Sharon's ability to scorn the Americans was always humiliating for Washington. Before the massacres of 1982, Philip Habib was President Reagan's special representative, his envoy to Beirut increasingly horrified by the ferocity of Sharon's assault on the city.

Not long before he died, I asked Habib why he didn't stop the bloodshed. "I could see it," he said. "I told the Israelis they were destroying the city, that they were firing non-stop. They just said they weren't. They said they werent doing that. I called Sharon on the phone. He said it wasnt true.

That damned man said to me on the phone that what I saw happening wasn't happening. So I held the telephone out of the window so he could hear the explosions. Then he said to me: 'What kind of conversation is this where you hold a telephone out of a window?'


Robert Fisk


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 09 January 2006 05:25 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

The state of Israel is more than a political entity; it is viewed as a homeland by Jews worldwide and its PM is the unofficial leader of those people.

[ 07 January 2006: Message edited by: white rabbit ]


And how, precisely, is viewing a state as a homeland not "political"? What is mine is not yours and voila, we have politics.

Isn't Israel the result of the nationalisation of Judaism? The creation of a positive Jewish political identity to counter both A) the religious/cultural Judaism that was politically impotent in Europe (resulting in the Holocaust, etc.) and B) the negative political position that Jews found themselves in due to their place in the nationalist narratives of European peoples?

[ 09 January 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]

[ 09 January 2006: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 09 January 2006 05:41 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by white rabbit:

The US also defines itself as more than a political entity, but the embodiment of a concept.



So fucking what? How does that make it non-political? Can you name a single state on the planet that is not the embodiment of a concept?

Ridiculous.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 09 January 2006 07:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Massacre survivors want Sharon to suffer

quote:
Nawal Abu Rodaina does not want Ariel Sharon to die. At least not yet.

Not before the Israeli prime minister is punished for his role in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon more than 23 years ago...

...She and her brother, Mohammed, survived. But 800-3500 others, depending on whose figures one takes, were killed, including women and children.

"Memories are etched so deeply in my mind that I can't forget them for as long as I live," says Nawal.

She blames Sharon for all her suffering and wants him held accountable.

"Sharon's death won't relieve me because he was not tried and punished for the crimes he committed against my family and the families of hundreds of other Palestinians like me," she says.




From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 09 January 2006 07:35 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Those are very sensible massacre survivors. They want Sharon to stand trial for his role in the horrific Sabra and Chatila massacres, and don't seem to think him having a stroke is some kind of divine justice.

Probably because they've seen the horrible things done to perfectly decent family and friends they knew.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 13 January 2006 09:34 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon Fails to Come Out of Coma

quote:
JERUSALEM - Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon's failure to wake up from a coma nine days after suffering a massive stroke does not bode well for his recovery, some doctors said Friday.

With extensive brain damage looking likely, Israelis have begun to look ahead to life without Sharon.

Sharon, 77, remained in "critical but stable" condition Friday, showing no change from the previous day, said Hadassah Hospital spokesman Ron Krumer.



From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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