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Author Topic: Israel to expand West Bank settlements
Hephaestion
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posted 26 December 2005 02:17 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
(Jerusalem) Israel said Monday it will build more than 200 new homes in Jewish West Bank settlements, a blow to peace efforts despite word that Ariel Sharon's new party plans a major push for Palestinian statehood if it wins upcoming elections.

In a separate sign of accommodation, Israeli officials said they will likely permit east Jerusalem's Palestinians to vote in next month's Palestinian election. Israel had recently threatened to bar east Jerusalem residents from voting.

The latest settlement construction, revealed in newspaper ads published Monday seeking bids from contractors, would violate Israel's commitments under the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan.

The plans include a total of 228 homes in the settlements of Beitar Illit and Efrat, both just outside Jerusalem.

The road map calls for a freeze on all settlement construction in the West Bank, which the Palestinians claim as part of a future independent state. Since accepting the plan in June 2003, Israel has continued to expand settlements. The Palestinians also have not carried out their road map obligation to disarm militant groups.

[...]

The settlement plans came as Sharon's new political party, Kadima, signalled it is ready to hand over West Bank territory to the Palestinians and work toward an independent Palestinian state after the March 28 elections. Opinion polls forecast a strong victory by Sharon's bloc.

Sharon left the hardline Likud party last month to form Kadima, saying he would have more freedom to negotiate a peace deal. Many Likud members remain furious with Sharon following his withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in September.

A draft of Kadima's election platform published Monday calls for conceding more land to the Palestinians as part of peace talks culminating in a Palestinian state. The talks would be based on the road map, which endorses a Palestinian state but says its borders must be reached through negotiations.

"The basic tenet of the peace process is two national states," says the platform. Party spokesman Lior Chorev said the draft, detailed in the Maariv daily, was expected to be approved by next week.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
fake_oxygen
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posted 26 December 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for fake_oxygen     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In other news, more innocent Israelis are going to get blown up by maniacs with bombs tied to their wastes. What is it about American and Israeli foreign policy that invites people to hurt them.

I was at the gym a couple of weeks ago talking to this Israeli dude, and we were talking about hunting. And he actually said, and i quote "the only thing I hunt is Palestinians"...i was thinking to myself "slowly walk away..."...like who the fuck says something like that? Gah, friggen humans.


From: Peterborough | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 26 December 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by fake_oxygen:

In other news, more innocent Israelis are going to get blown up by maniacs with bombs tied to their wastes.


That would be shitty.

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 December 2005 02:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Aha, fake. I get it. You are a superior person. You are above all these things that drive lesser human beings to frustration, sometimes anger, sometimes violence.

That must be nice for you.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 27 December 2005 02:07 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Expanding settlements in spite of promises to the contrary?

I'm shocked, I tell you. Shocked!


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 27 December 2005 03:04 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yeah... it's funny how ohara was here posting all day about those people making slanderous remarks about "Christ killers" but never got around to this thread, for some reason. Hmmph! Must not be interested in the Middle East...
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 28 December 2005 02:13 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The road map calls for a freeze on all settlement construction in the West Bank, which the Palestinians claim as part of a future independent state. Since accepting the plan in June 2003, Israel has continued to expand settlements. The Palestinians also have not carried out their road map obligation to disarm militant groups.

Israel seems to think that it doesn't have to stop building settlements until the Palestinian Authoritty disbarms the millitant groups. It's totally hypocritical. Then again, Israel knows that the US won't do anything about it because the Road Map to "Peace" is really an apartheid plan that leaves Palestine with three bantuized enclaves on 22% of the West Bank. Israel also knows that the roadmap to peace can't work (for the above reason), and therefore Israel thumbs its nose at it.


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 December 2005 03:52 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Isreal need the militant Palestinian organization in order to continue to build the Wet Bank settlements.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 28 December 2005 09:43 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I have always been against the Occupation and reject any present expansion. In my view it is not good for Israel and it certainly is a provocative act.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 28 December 2005 11:20 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Yeah... it's funny how ohara was here posting all day about those people making slanderous remarks about "Christ killers" but never got around to this thread, for some reason. Hmmph! Must not be interested in the Middle East...

This kind of trolling is unnecessary and against the rules, Heph. Cut it out.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CHCMD
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posted 28 December 2005 11:22 AM      Profile for CHCMD   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

That would be shitty.



From: 1 | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 December 2005 12:09 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I have always been against the Occupation and reject any present expansion. In my view it is not good for Israel and it certainly is a provocative act.


Present expansion? What about the existing settlements?

You claim to be against the Occupation, yet you seem to be saying only that settlement expansion should stop, not that the existing settlements (like that ring around Jerusalem) should be dismantled.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 28 December 2005 04:17 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Let me repeat myself I have always been against the Occupation PERIOD. It is my hope that the PA and Israel will come to an appropriate and agreeable settlement that all will feel good about PERIOD. Is that clear enough or do you wish to look for something within the sylables?
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 December 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So what about the existing settlements?

Reading that PERIOD of yours was quite the déja vu experience.

You could throw in a "sadly" for old times' sake.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Jay Williams
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posted 28 December 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for Jay Williams        Edit/Delete Post
It might not be well received here, but here goes:

In the whole world there are maybe 15-20 million Jews. Jews don't expand their numbers by converting others, unlike some other religions. A serious attempt has already been made to exterminate the Jews. The political leaders on the PA, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Libya have all declared that the Jews should be wiped out. The only place on Earth that Jews are totally welcome is in Israel.

Put it all together, and they have no choice but to expand their territory in order to secure their future. Try to imagine being in their shoes. It sucks to be a Palestinian in a refugee camp, but it sucks worse to be genocided.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 December 2005 05:16 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The political leaders on the PA, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Libya have all declared that the Jews should be wiped out.

Are you sure about that?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 28 December 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
So what about the existing settlements?

Reading that PERIOD of yours was quite the déja vu experience.

You could throw in a "sadly" for old times' sake.



I would leave that to the PA and Israelis to figure out not you and me.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 28 December 2005 05:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And quoting whole posts!
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 28 December 2005 10:59 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Williams:

Jews don't expand their numbers by converting others, unlike some other religions.



So people who do convert (like Sammy Davis Jr., etc.) aren't "real" Jews?

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 December 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I understand non-Jews can convert by choice to Judaism. However Judaism as a tradition does not prcctice proselytism. Perhaps Peech may know more about this than do I.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 December 2005 08:40 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The only place on Earth that Jews are totally welcome is in Israel.

I thought there were Jews living peacefully in North America. Am I mistaken?


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 December 2005 09:00 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
You are not mistaken Briguy and I actually find such statements as offered by Jay Williams offensive.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 December 2005 10:48 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
In my view it is not good for Israel and it certainly is a provocative act.

It's also puzzling. I always suspected Likud benefitted from polarization, and therefore had a motive to encourage Hamas. In fact I expect some Likud supporters would be happy if Hamas won the Palestinian elections, because Israel would be in a totally polarized environment.

So if Sharon has turned away from polarization, why expand the settlements in the middle of elections in both Palestine and Israel?


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 December 2005 11:03 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
If Sharon wants to build in Israel no problem. However any further expansion or building in the WB should be stopped immediatley.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Jay Williams
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posted 29 December 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for Jay Williams        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

I thought there were Jews living peacefully in North America. Am I mistaken?


Synagogue vandalism in Edmonton

Synagogue vandalized in Edmonton

I guess some people in Canada don't like Jews. My point remains. Israel is the only place on Earth where Jews don't face this low-level form of ethnic cleansing. That's precisely why Israel was established in the first place.

[ 29 December 2005: Message edited by: Jay Williams ]


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 29 December 2005 01:54 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Your point doesn't stand at all. Every minority faces racism, and we have to deal with that problem. Perpetuating a racist situation in another region is no way to deal with racism at home.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 December 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Williams:
I guess some people in Canada don't like Jews. My point remains. Israel is the only place on Earth where Jews don't face this low-level form of ethnic cleansing. That's precisely why Israel was established in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Your point doesn't stand at all. Every minority faces racism, and we have to deal with that problem. Perpetuating a racist situation in another region is no way to deal with racism at home.

That doesn't sound the way you must have intended. You aren't saying the establishment of Israel was a bad thing, surely?

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Trams
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posted 29 December 2005 08:25 PM      Profile for Trams   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

That doesn't sound the way you must have intended. You aren't saying the establishment of Israel was a bad thing, surely?

That's a hot button issue, and likely too late to be debated. I wonder how many people who weren't Nazi collaboraters had to suffer to create Israel. Again, I am not saying it should not have happened. i will say that Arabs at the time had to suffer a tremendous blow when I srael was created.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 29 December 2005 08:29 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Williams:
[QB]I guess some people in Canada don't like Jews.

Some people in Canada also don't like Arabs, Muslims, Blacks, Italians, Irish, women, or people who like icecream. Should this doom the idea of multi-ethnic/cultural/national states?
This logic leads us back to the old idea of ethnonational majority states, with one ethnicity enjoying favour over others. The same kind of state that left Jews in the lurch throughout history. Don't you see how that would just make Jews out of everyone not in their supposed homeland? Most frightening is that this logic has the obverse effect of lending credence to the xenophobic ideology that would remove all Jews from Canada.


quote:
My point remains. Israel is the only place on Earth where Jews don't face this low-level form of ethnic cleansing. That's precisely why Israel was established in the first place.

On the contrary - that the conflict we are discussing has continued unabated for over a century demonstrates that the problem has not been solved by the creation of Israel - at least not in the way that it was carried out. In fact, the exclusionary logic you're touting is a big part of why the problem continues. Whatever "freedom" Jews might think they've gained in this arrangement, it's the "freedom" of the slave-owner - it only comes from having their boot on someone's neck. That's not freedom, it's simply the benefit of temporary power relationships that are currently in their favour.

[ 29 December 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 29 December 2005 11:01 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Exactly. And those "temporary power relationships" are fleeting and impermanent, and will undoubtedly change in the future, to Israel's detriment and possibly destruction.

I mean, let's face it, the only reason Israel's gotten away with the abuse it's heaped upon the Palestinians is because they have the biggest bully on the planet (the US) consistently backing them up. But what happens when, inevitably, that bully starts losing its global power? What happens when the US is no longer able or willing to enforce its power over the region? What the hell will Israel do then?

If Israeli leaders had any sense, they'd be planning for that day a few decades from now when they can no longer lean on the US for support. Instead, they seem to have inherited the arrogance of their superpower patron and assume that their present position of power is right and natural and will endure 'til the end of time.

I suspect they're in for quite a shock.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 December 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Trams:
i will say that Arabs at the time had to suffer a tremendous blow when Israel was created.

Soon after, yes. When the UN established Israel by the partition decision, the first tremendous blow was against the Jewish state, wasn't it? Not that I want to waste time taking sides over who did what in 1947, but singling out the Arabs as the sole sufferers is not a position that any Canadian could have honourably taken in 1947, not long after Canada had refused to accept Jewish refugees, and when we had not yet finished erasing our own anti-semitic practices.
quote:
Originally posted by Trams:
That's a hot button issue, and likely too late to be debated.

Israel's right to exist is a hot button issue? To Hamas and to Ahmadinejad, apparently so. To anyone in Canada, surely not.

[ 29 December 2005: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 30 December 2005 04:13 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

That doesn't sound the way you must have intended. You aren't saying the establishment of Israel was a bad thing, surely?

Nope. I'm just saying that Israel's existence don't do much to alleviate real racism problems at home. The two are very much disconnected problems, and claiming that the existance of Israel will "fix" problems in Europe, North America, or anywhere else is completely disingenuous. That argument has really been problematic from day 1.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 30 December 2005 04:17 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not to say that I approve of Israel in it's current form. Nor of the 'vision' of the Likudists in charge. Eretz Israel = eventual genocide, unless it takes the form of a shared state with equal rights for all citizens.
From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Makwa
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posted 30 December 2005 05:09 AM      Profile for Makwa   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Williams:
Put it all together, and they have no choice but to expand their territory in order to secure their future. Try to imagine being in their shoes. It sucks to be a Palestinian in a refugee camp, but it sucks worse to be genocided.
Hey try to be First Nations. We have no land to call our own after being herded and slaughtered for 400 years other than the pathetic bit of left-overs called reservations. Give us some territory, and then we'll argue about whether or not we should expand it.

From: Here at the glass - all the usual problems, the habitual farce | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 30 December 2005 09:20 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Regarding the justice of the 1947 UN partition plan:

[ 30 December 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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posted 30 December 2005 09:33 AM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jay Williams:
Put it all together, and they have no choice but to expand their territory in order to secure their future. Try to imagine being in their shoes. It sucks to be a Palestinian in a refugee camp, but it sucks worse to be genocided.

And when Israel loses the support of the USA and is left on its own, you will no doubt allow the Palestinians the equivalent excuse of 40 years of brutal occupation to justify the expansion into "Jewish" territory?

I was abused so that justifies my abuse of others ... how original.


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hesse
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posted 30 December 2005 02:30 PM      Profile for Hesse        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by No Yards:

And when Israel loses the support of the USA and is left on its own, you will no doubt allow the Palestinians the equivalent excuse of 40 years of brutal occupation to justify the expansion into "Jewish" territory?

I was abused so that justifies my abuse of others ... how original.


This issue is impossible to discuss. I look at the map and think 'wow, talk about unfair.' But then I think of militancy and how it creates a quagmire in the region. Then I think of helicopters and the loss of innocent people. Suicide bombers, second class citizenship, lynchings, political redundancy, political corruption, evil allies, etc, etc...

May god (whoever that is) have mercy...


From: toronto | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
FabFabian
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posted 01 January 2006 06:02 PM      Profile for FabFabian        Edit/Delete Post
I'm so jaded by this topic. To me it is so "same shit, different day." Wooo, how courageous of Sharon to pull out of Gaza, let's give this former hawk a medal. The day they pull out of the terroritories, pull down that effin wall, stop interferring and give all Palestinians whether they live in Israel or not some semblence of a life back, only then will there be progress. Until that happens, it is still business as usual.
From: Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 01 January 2006 06:08 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
That's not to say that I approve of Israel in it's current form. Nor of the 'vision' of the Likudists in charge. Eretz Israel = eventual genocide, unless it takes the form of a shared state with equal rights for all citizens.

"Eventual genocide" it is this type of jingoistic language with no basis that is seen by most Canadians as being unacceptable and for good reason. While Israel has much to change to claim that it will somehow commit genocide turns anyone with a mind off message. Canadians, in my view, see Israel as a democracy with problems but will not accept the kind of image people like Briguy perpetuate.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 January 2006 06:16 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why do you purport to speak for Canadians?
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 01 January 2006 06:28 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Actually you do make a good point. Let me rephrase by saying that in my view Canadians ....
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 01 January 2006 06:28 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
While Israel has much to change to claim that it will somehow commit genocide turns anyone with a mind off message.

It also diverts attention from what I suspect is the real problem: that the majority of Israelis see no solution. Hamas still, I gather, aims at the destruction of Israel. Fatah may be too weak, divided, and even old to successfully challenge Hamas, although I hope they will still prevail at the coming elections. Fatah and Labour should, in theory, be able to find common ground and reach a peaceful settlement. Yet it never happens. If Israeli public opinion gives up, then a politician who says "build a wall, let Hamas run Palestine, and we'll start talking peace in another 25 years or so" may be in tune with public opinion. Then again, I know very little about it, so I hope I'm wrong.

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 01 January 2006 11:38 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"There is a huge gap between us and our enemies not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbours here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred metres away, there are people who don't belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli President Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post. May 10, 2001.
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 02 January 2006 09:37 AM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them..we'll insert a strip of Jewish settlements in between the Palestinians, and then another strip of settlements right across the West Bank, so that in a year's time neither the United Nation, the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart." -Ariel Sharon
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 02 January 2006 10:02 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:

"Eventual genocide" it is this type of jingoistic language with no basis that is seen by most Canadians as being unacceptable and for good reason. While Israel has much to change to claim that it will somehow commit genocide turns anyone with a mind off message. Canadians, in my view, see Israel as a democracy with problems but will not accept the kind of image people like Briguy perpetuate.

What do you call it when one group of people systematically proceeds to remove another group, of different ethnicity, from their homes? Because I'm always interested in increasing my vocabulry.

"People like Briguy." Fuck you too.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 02 January 2006 10:26 AM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty ?

Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)

Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestinian territory in 1948?

Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians?

Did you know that Palestinian refugees make up the largest portion of the refugee population in the world?

Did you know that despite a ban on torture by Israel's High Court of Justice, torture has continued unabated by Shin Bet interrogators on Palestinian prisoners?

Did you know that the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [December, 1948], yet Palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the Oslo Accords?

Did you know that despite what is widely perpetuated and written in the history books that the Arabs attacked Israel in the 1967 war, it was Israel who attacked the Arab countries first, capturing Jerusalem and the West Bank, and called the attack a pre-emptive strike?

And finally, did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories? There have been MANY in Israel that openly advocate the FORCED EXPULSION of ALL non-Jews, INCLUDING CHRISTIANS FOLKS.

Is THIS the much vaunted "only democracy in the middle east" that folks defend?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Vietnam Vet
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posted 02 January 2006 12:47 PM      Profile for Vietnam Vet     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cdnviking:

Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty ?

Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it? (Imagine if an Islamic country like Iraq did this!)



What is there to imagine cdnviking? The USS Stark was deployed to the Middle East Force in 1984 and 1987. She is remembered for the incident of May 17, 1987 when she was struck by two Exocet missiles from an Iraqi Mirage fighter. Thirty-seven crew were killed and twenty-one were injured. And as for the NPF, I hope Israel never signs it because now that Iran wants all the jews out of Palestine and is working on its own Atomic Weapons program, I fear that there are dark days ahead.


From: Winnipeg | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 02 January 2006 01:15 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

What do you call it when one group of people systematically proceeds to remove another group, of different ethnicity, from their homes? Because I'm always interested in increasing my vocabulry.

"People like Briguy." Fuck you too.


Genocide is the deliberate mass murder of an entire people. To hang that on Israel is pretty disgusting


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 January 2006 01:24 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Since, as Golda Meir said, there is no such thing as Palestinians, for Israel to wipe them out is impossible.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 January 2006 01:25 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OHCHR, Convention on ... Genocide

quote:

Article 2:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


I think that Briguy may also be thinking of the transfer or dispossession of entire groups of peoples, treated under a number of related conventions. Here is a full list; see especially the last two sections on that page.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 02 January 2006 01:28 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Vietnam Vet, funny you should mention the Stark.. The Mirage was Iraqi, but the White House tried to pin the attack on the Iranians.

Now, back to the West Bank.


From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 01:30 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Since, as Golda Meir said, there is no such thing as Palestinians, for Israel to wipe them out is impossible.

Wasn't she PM about 35 years ago? Do you hold the words ofLJohn Diefenbaker as applicable to Canadian policy today?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 01:32 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I hope Israel never signs it because now that Iran wants all the jews out of Palestine and is working on its own Atomic Weapons program, I fear that there are dark days ahead.

So one country gets invaded on the premise that it HAS "weapons of mass destruction" and another is threatened with "sanctions" if it doesn't comply with UN demands that it allow inspections of its' nuclear facilities, but Israel gets off SCOT FREE when it REFUSES to allow international inspections and the international BULLY (America), who invades another country on FALSEHOODS regarding WMD's backs Israels REFUSAL to abide by UN resolutions and International Law?

You agree with this position, allowing the region's most aggressive nation to possess nuclear weapons UNSUPERVISED?

Wow... so Iran can have them unsupervised, right? How many neighbors has Iran ever attacked, compared to Israel?

Israel attacked its neighbors in 1956 (Egypt, along with the French and British), 1967 (the so called "pre-emptive strike) and Lebanon in the early 80's! Israel CONTINUES to violate international law by attacking occupied civilian targets by air and ground, with NO regard for innocent civilians.

Israel bulldozes civilian homes WITH PEOPLE IN THEM, uses TORTURE to extract information and uses state sponsored assassination to "exact justice" on persons ALLEGED to have committed crimes!

Some "only democracy in the middle east" you have there Vietnam Vet.

Sounds a little like what American soldiers did to vietnamese civilians during the Vietnam war! Buring villages, assassinating ANYONE they thought could be VC, spraying dioxins all over the country, without regard for civilians!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 01:33 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
OHCHR, Convention on ... Genocide

I think that Briguy may also be thinking of the transfer or dispossession of entire groups of peoples, treated under a number of related conventions. Here is a full list; see especially the last two sections on that page.


Of which in my view israel is not doing. Now this is not to say that Israel is treating Palestinians properly, not at all. But to suggest genocide is wrong and I argue that most people turn you off when such wild and inane claims are made.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 January 2006 01:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
“The significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process,” Weisglass, one of the initiators of the disengagement plan, said in an interview for the Friday Magazine.

“And when you freeze that process,” Weisglass added, “you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem.

“Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. And all this with authority and permission. All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress.”

“The disengagement is actually formaldehyde,” he said. “It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians."


Dov "Mr Formaldehyde" Weisglass, advisor to Ariel Sharon, interviewed by Haaretz in October 2004.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 02 January 2006 01:36 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong
quote:
Since, as Golda Meir said, there is no such thing as Palestinians, for Israel to wipe them out is impossible.

So Golda Meir was the authority on who was what in the world? Based on her say so, it is okay to slaughter civilians whenever one pleases, wall them up in a virtual ghetto, controlled similarly to those ghettos established by Nazi's?

One thing the Jewish state learned well from their persecutors folks, is how to be persecutors!

Let's take the word of a JEWISH leader, right? No conflict of interest there, is there? Hmmm?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 January 2006 01:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
viking, that just went too far.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 02 January 2006 01:48 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not only that, skdadl, viking missed the point entirely.

quote:
A few weeks ago, Israeli Professor and Political Sociologist at Ben Gurion University Lev Grinberg wrote an article that created an uproar in Israel titled, Symbolic Genocide (1). In it Professor Grinberg wrote, “Unable to recover from the Holocaust trauma and the insecurity it caused, the Jewish people, the ultimate victim of genocide, is currently inflicting a symbolic genocide upon the Palestinian people...What is symbolic genocide? Every people has its symbols, national leaders and political institutions, a home land, past and future generations, and hopes. All these symbolically represent a people. Israel is systematically damaging, destroying and eradicating all of these, with unbelievable bureaucratic jargon.”


...If, to use Professor Grinberg’s words again, “Silence under the present circumstances means acquiescence,” then what does one call the United States’ blatant arming, financial support and political cover for Israel’s – or its own in Iraq for that matter – current policy of destruction and self-destruction?

Indeed, “genocide” seems too accommodating for such arrogance of power



Genocide by Public Policy

quote:
Wasn't she PM about 35 years ago? Do you hold the words ofLJohn Diefenbaker as applicable to Canadian policy today?

That's only 35 years. What ancient texts promised Palestine as a homeland to Jews? I guess they mean even less.

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 02 January 2006 02:48 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
What else would you call a huge fence that totally encircles somewhere like Bethlehem, where the gates are opened for an allotted timeframe everyday and it is next to impossible to get out, even for medical treatment, without jumping through so many hoops as to make the journey not worth it?

The comparison is fair, although a tad tasteless, granted. But I can't think of a better comparison than the jewish ghettos under the nazis.

What ancient texts? Some collection of fairy tales and sky fairy myths that promise certain real estate to a certain people?

There isn't even any real proof that "ancient Israel" even existed as a "nation state". NOWHERE in the ancient historical records of other civilizations does it even mention a "nation state" of "Israel".

So we accept THEIR "holy text" that THEIR GOD gave them the land of Palestine?

If you buy that, then pack your bags and go back to Europe, because the First Nations People were given all of North, Central and South America by THEIR GODS folks, so there is NO room here for you INFIDELS!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 02 January 2006 02:50 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This thread has jumped the shark.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 02:55 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm complaining to the mods. Too bad, because it is a very important topic.

The struggle for justice for Palestine can do without the taint of anti-semitic "supporters".


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 03:01 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Before I get accused of being anti-semitic, let's clear up one thing, I AM NOT.

Just because I don't buy what Israel is pretending to be (a democratic state where all are equal and everything is just peachy keen) doens't mean I am anti-semitic.

I am just sick of all the apologists who contend that Israel is the perfect little nation state who is being picked on by all her big bad neighbors!

Israel is as much an author of its own situation as its enemies.

The "Palestinians" NEVER attacked Israel, heck, they weren't even consulted when other "arabs" did!

Other arab states haven't given a tinker's damn about the Palestinians when they attack or threaten to attack Israel.

Iran's latest outburst about Israel is the outburst of a NON-Arab nation (persians have never been "arabs").

Many of Israel's enemies in the region continue to be enemies because of Israel's own actions, both internally and externally.

No other nation (other than maybe america and the old soviet union) went around the world, MURDERING people they think did them harm!

Israel has said repeatedly that NO OTHER NATION ON EARTH CAN JUDGE ISRAEL OR CRITICIZE IT!

Israel is the biggest bully nation in the region, backed up by the biggest bully nation on earth, AMERICA!

MANY of my jewish friends feel similarly about Israel folks! They don't feel the current state has any right to claim to represent ALL JEWS!

I am very sympathetic to what the jews have gone through, and also what first nations people have gone through and what many other peoples around the world continue to go through by suffering oppression at the hands of "occupiers" (Tibet for example).

Just because I criticize Israel, does NOT make me anti-semitic!

If you don't agree, oh well!

Freedom of speech in Canada is the freedom of "productive speech". As long as I don't advocate the destruction of a people (which I have NOT), I am within the bounds of constitutionally protected "free speech", as even criticism is free speech folks, even if you DON'T AGREE WITH IT!

Why is it that pointing out verifiable FACTS when it comes to Israel is all of a sudden "anti-semitisim"?

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: cdnviking ]


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 02 January 2006 03:46 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
What do you call it when one group of people systematically proceeds to remove another group, of different ethnicity, from their homes?

That would be ethnic cleansing, which of course has been happening since 1947 and is the principle evil resulting from the formation of Israel, just as it is the principle evil in several other balkanized regions. The largest one, again, being the ethnic cleansing resulting from the formation of Pakistan. What's the relevance of Pakistan? Because, despite the terrible tragedies on the movements of large numbers both ways across the Pakistan border, the majority of Muslims in India stayed in India, and today outnumber the population of Pakistan. Just because some people flee does not justify making the resulting state monolithic. The odd thing about some Palestinian Arabs is that, unlike almost all Muslims in India, a significant number of Palestinian Arabs don't vote in Israeli elections; the Knesset would be less right-wing if they did.

"Symbolic genocide?" Couldn't that become a very slippery concept?


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 03:48 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
Israel's political system is controlled by an extreme version of "proportional representation" that allows little, tiny parties far too much control of the affairs of the nation.

The bigger parties must accomodate the whims and wishes of the extremist/fringe parties (mostly religious) in order to stay "in power".

One can see just how untenable the situation has become by how Ariel Sharon has felt the need to leave the Likud Party and form his own, as the Likud Party is bent on its narrow minded, settler supporting agenda at all costs, regardless of the feelings of most Israelis, who support "sacrificing" land for "peace".

Israel's democratic system is almost as non-functioning as Italy's, with all the parties getting seats through an overly generous "proportional representation system".

The fracturing of the vote into such small constituent parts makes forming a "majority government" impossible and allows the fringe parties to have an excessive influence on government decisions, far and away beyond their actual vote representation in the overall demographic.

Settlement has been achieved this way, by small parties INSISTING that settlements be built, even though they are a violation of international law! No larger party can say no, because it would end in their downfall.

This is democracy?


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 04:04 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
MANY of my jewish friends
And I'll betcha they are some of your best friends too,

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 02 January 2006 04:13 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cdnviking:
Israel's political system is controlled by an extreme version of "proportional representation" that allows little, tiny parties far too much control of the affairs of the nation.

On the one hand, I agree with you. The Israeli threshold of 1.5% for a party to get seats in the Knesset is lower than most countries. The best counter-example is South Africa, which has no threshold at all, so that every racial and other minority in South Africa can get a voice in Parliament. But I think Israel would be better served by a higher threshold, for the reasons you give. But what threshold?

On the other hand, however, who are the small parties? In the last election:
Likud 40
Labour 19
Shinui 15
Shas 11
National Union 7
Meretz 6
National Religious (NRP) 5
Torah Judaism 5
Hadash 4
One Nation 4
Balad 3
Ra'am 2

One Nation has since merged with Labour. The three smallest parties are now the two Israeli Arab parties, plus the leftist Hadash (the majority of whose voters are, the last I heard, Israeli Arabs.)

Balad and Ra'am could form a common list and get over a 4% threshold. Hadash got only 2.98% and would be at a real disadvantage. But the targets of your concern are:

National Union 5.90%
National Religious (NRP) 4.10%
Torah Judaism 4.29%

You want a 5% threshold? Fine, but what about the Arab parties?

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
jeff house
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posted 02 January 2006 04:36 PM      Profile for jeff house     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The fracturing of the vote into such small constituent parts makes forming a "majority government" impossible

The vote becomes "fractured" if voters do not wish to see the "majority government" you correctly place in quotation marks.

If people decide that having a real majority government is important, they will vote that way.

If not, then they'll vote otherwise.

It is not up to you, or to any social scientist or politician, to tell voters that they must desire "majority government".


From: toronto | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 04:49 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
ohara
quote:
And I'll betcha they are some of your best friends too

Yes, as a matter of fact, they are. I have participated in many "social causes" with them, everything from abortion rights to women's equality and justice for first nations people. All "left of centre" and all (at the time) not particularly popular with the "majority".

Wilf Day .... most arabs don't vote within Israel. If they did, there would be quite a different political landscape, to be sure.

If Israeli-Arabs voted, I believe they could be the "king makers" in Israeli politics, but regretably, most choose not too (whether pressured or by choice, it doesn't matter).

The arab birthrate is far higher than that of the jewish israelis! In time, arabs will be the majority in Israel again, just on birthrate alone.

jeff house ... many posters on rabble feel the need to tell others what to do, say, believe, etc. Is it their business to tell anyone else what to do?

I am not telling anyone what to do, I am making a political observation.

There are those who would have Canada adopt a similar "proportional representation" system. One word for those people... NO!


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 05:12 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
regretably, most choose not too (whether pressured or by choice, it doesn't matter).

Have you any proof at all that Israeli-Arabs are "pressured" not to vote?

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
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posted 02 January 2006 05:51 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
ohara ....
quote:
Have you any proof at all that Israeli-Arabs are "pressured" not to vote?

It is safe to say that the Palestinian Authority exerts indirect pressure on "brother palestinians" and seeks to include them in any voting that may take place regarding palestinian national ambitions.

Israeli elections are significant for the Palestinian citizens of Israel first and foremost because of a recent controversy when the central election committee voted to disqualify Members of Knesset Azmi Bishara and Ahmad Tibi, as well as the political party National Democratic Assembly (NDA).

The state, represented by the attorney general, argued in court that when NDA calls for a "state for all its citizens" this contradicts Israel's character as "a Jewish state." When the High Court rejected that argument and ruled that NDA is qualified to run for election, the democratic demand for equality of Palestinians inside Israel was emphasized.

On the downside, the attempt at disqualification also seemed to show that the majority in the Israeli Knesset and the Israeli public want to limit the rights of Palestinians inside Israel.

This could also be viewed as "pressuring" Israeli Arabs to keep their noses out of "the jewish state's business", wouldn't you say?

Israel even threatens to interfere with Israeli-Arab's voting rights, in particular, the pending Palestinian civic elections ...

quote:
JERUSALEM -- Israeli officials threatened yesterday to prohibit balloting in East Jerusalem during Palestinian parliamentary elections, a move that Palestinian leaders warned could imperil the Jan. 25 vote and lead to civil unrest http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/bal-te.mideast 22dec22001554,0,5454510.story?coll=sfla-newsnation-front

I would say this is "pressured", wouldn't you? Denying someone the right to vote?

BOTH sides could be accused of pressure tactics!

My point was that Israeli-Arabs may not fully participate in Knesset elections because they feel or have been made to believe doing so is POINTLESS, as it will accomplish NOTHING (kinda like voting NDP here, LOL).

During our last federal election, I believe the voter turnout amounted to something like 62% of all eligable voters. Why? Likely because of voter apathy and a belief that their voting would change NOTHING.

Our youth turned out in pathetically insignificant numbers, considering they are to inherit the system and might want to participate in it to learn how it works and how to improve it when they take the mantle of power!

I suspect that some Israeli-Arab voters may feel similarly, as those that do vote effect very LITTLE change for Israeli-Arabs!

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: cdnviking ]


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 02 January 2006 06:10 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
So in other words you have no proof. Just speculation and conjecture.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
cdnviking
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9661

posted 02 January 2006 06:26 PM      Profile for cdnviking        Edit/Delete Post
I just showed you two instances ohara.... a move to remove political parties (that arabs principally participate in, when they participate) from the ballot and a threat to ban Israeli-Arabs from voting in civic elections in January!

Those two items are PROOF!

The mention of the Palestinian Authority is speculation, granted!

Here is a source for the Knesset Banning mention, and a jewish one to boot http://www.jafi.org.il/education/actual/elections/2003/c1.html#1

I would think an attempt to declare a political party unable to run in an election is PRESSURE! Particularly when it is an ISRAELI-ARAB running (in one instance).

Would someone like to speculate as to why Israeli-Arabs would feel like their participation was valuable to the "nation" and rush out and vote in an environment like this, when the Knesset is seeking to ban Arab candidates/parties from the political process? Democracy you say? Hmmmm... I wonder!

[ 02 January 2006: Message edited by: cdnviking ]


From: The Centre of the Universe, Ontario... Just kidding | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 02 January 2006 07:13 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by cdnviking:
an attempt to declare a political party unable to run in an election is PRESSURE! Particularly when it is an ISRAELI-ARAB running.


No doubt. However, the effort failed. It won the right to be on the ballot. It was rewarded by -- an increase in participation by Israeli Arabs? (I haven't checked. It's not an easy question. Lots of Israeli Arabs have voted for Labour or Meretz. I'm not sure where to find reliable estimates of the percent of Arabs who vote.)

From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 02 January 2006 07:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
This thread has jumped the shark.

Agreed.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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