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Author Topic: Afghani Democracy on the March
al-Qa'bong
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posted 11 December 2005 06:45 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Post-Taliban Free Speech Blocked by Courts, Clerics

quote:

Nasab's conviction already has had a chilling effect on other Afghan journalists and threatens to seriously erode freedoms achieved since the fall of the Taliban in 2001, according to Rahimullah Samander, director of the Center for International Journalism here.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
M. Spector
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posted 11 December 2005 06:51 PM      Profile for M. Spector   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Makes me proud as a Canadian that we're over there helping to support the existing regime!
From: One millihelen: The amount of beauty required to launch one ship. | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 12 December 2005 02:20 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
USian right-rightists have effectively removed what were their religious fundamentalist alter egos, the Taliban, and replaced them with another group of relgious whackos who believe it's a woman's right to be stoned if caught wearing nail polish. Which is only slightly more up beat than being buried alive for being caught at the mall without head-to-toe veil in blistering hot weather.

U.S. cold war games on the other side of the planet have betrayed Afghani women for 20 years. They were freer under Soviet rule.

[ 12 December 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 12 December 2005 03:07 AM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
It's funny and sad to see Fidel constantly stroke his ideological and paternalistic viewpoint in relation to Afghan womyn and his soviet union fetish.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 12 December 2005 11:03 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It doesn't mean he isn't correct.

I was told by someone from Afghanistan that during the 1970s he sat in university classes in Kabul beside women wearing miniskirts.

How things have changed since Zbigniew Brzezinski (a Democrat, remember?) sucked the Soviets into invading that country - just to give them their own Vietnam.


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Reason
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posted 12 December 2005 07:53 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
It doesn't mean he isn't correct.

I was told by someone from Afghanistan that during the 1970s he sat in university classes in Kabul beside women wearing miniskirts.

How things have changed since Zbigniew Brzezinski (a Democrat, remember?) sucked the Soviets into invading that country - just to give them their own Vietnam.



The 70's were effectively before the USSR invasion. About the same time Marxists were coming into power politically in Afghanistan.

People seem to be of the impression that with regime change comes an instantanious change of attitudes and policy.

Gripping about this one will do absolutely nothing. So, do something, write your member of parliment asking for a little pressure to be applied. Write to Amnesty International. Write to the Red Crystal (formerly the Red Cross/Red Crescent, and now that I have written that, it some how seems wrong... "Red Crystal? That some sort of meth?").

We are there to help. We take our marching orders from Ottawa. Ottawa takes their marching orders from you.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 December 2005 03:00 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
People seem to be of the impression that with regime change comes an instantanious change of attitudes and policy.

No, that would be the 25 or so years of constant warfare in Afghanistan that has changed attitudes.

I don't doubt that you think "we're" there to help, just as the CIA operatives who recruited the mujahideen to usurp the godless commies thought that they were being helpful.


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Fidel
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posted 13 December 2005 03:56 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks al-Qa'bong. I wasn't trolling for a flame war either. I remember almost coming to hard words with my sister's husband at the time. Essentially, Nicholas, with three degrees and no less than a teacher at the time, made a compelling argument that the mujihaden hill people had every right not to want their children to be educated in Soviet schools. I did not posess even one degree then, but I was arguing that all children of third world status belonged in school. I thought it was a simple choice at the time really - Should an Afghan woman want to go to Russia and train to be an eye surgeon for free, or should she choose to stay at home all day in head to toe cover and avoid religious police ?. Bullets for the mujihaden were said to be costing American taxpayers $5 dollars a piece at some point. Andthe military industrial complex were more than happy to supply them.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 13 December 2005 07:00 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

No, that would be the 25 or so years of constant warfare in Afghanistan that has changed attitudes.

I don't doubt that you think "we're" there to help, just as the CIA operatives who recruited the mujahideen to usurp the godless commies thought that they were being helpful.


It appears that we agree... Things will not change over night. We could wish and hope that this would be the case, but, that does not reflect reality often.

There is a difference as to what one thinks... And what one thinks, knows, and does. Based on what I have personally seen, what the Government is saying we are doing is factual.

As to your last point.

Considering that at the time, the USSR was guilty of many crimes... One only has to start from the Ukrainian Famine, to the suppression of the Hungarians, to the 10's possibly hundred's of thousands of politcal prisoners sent to Siberian work camps. I would not call the commies godless. I would call them evil.

Calling godless is simply stating fact, and playing to emotions at the same time... Communism is the state of socialism without a god if I am not mistaken. Which in itself is not evil... But they're historical actions were.

(I also agree that the balance of evidence shows that the US has committed a far share of it's own atrocities, just most of them were not within US borders).


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Fidel
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posted 14 December 2005 12:42 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:
Calling godless is simply stating fact, and playing to emotions at the same time... Communism is the state of socialism without a god if I am not mistaken. Which in itself is not evil... But they're historical actions were.

Ya but, they weren't the only
evil empire with a sideshow at the time. At least the Soviets weren't claiming to be allied with god as they did unspeakable things.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 14 December 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Considering that at the time, the USSR was guilty of many crimes... One only has to start from the Ukrainian Famine, to the suppression of the Hungarians, to the 10's possibly hundred's of thousands of politcal prisoners sent to Siberian work camps. I would not call the commies godless. I would call them evil.


There's evil enough to spare, to be sure.

Have you heard of the US contribution to ridding Indonesia of evil commies...or Irak...or El Salvador...or Iran...or...?


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Reason
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posted 14 December 2005 01:01 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did I say other wise? They lied to the world, and worst of all, they lied to their own people about it. Now, the citizens have paid a price, and the idiot terrorists picked on the sleeping bull... Unfortunatly, this bull is partially blind, half deaf, and some what challenged in the IQ department.
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Fidel
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posted 14 December 2005 01:27 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Reason:

Considering that at the time, the USSR was guilty of many crimes... One only has to start from the Ukrainian Famine,...

But Stalin was dead a long time at this point. As that article I posted states, the Soviets were training women to be doctors, teachers and engineers. Women throughout the stan's surrounding Russia represented a large percentage of newly-trained medical and other professionals. They didn't care who was offering free education at the time, only that it was being offered. This is not so dissimilar to the way in which Marxists were building schools, hospitals and basic infrastructure in Central and South America before and during the cold war - before the CIA/NSA's "Operation Condor": the real terror network. The CIA/Pentagon's terror network had tentacles across the globe. They were and still are the original KAOS.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 16 December 2005 02:54 AM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:

But Stalin was dead a long time at this point. As that article I posted states, the Soviets were training women to be doctors, teachers and engineers. Women throughout the stan's surrounding Russia represented a large percentage of newly-trained medical and other professionals. They didn't care who was offering free education at the time, only that it was being offered. This is not so dissimilar to the way in which Marxists were building schools, hospitals and basic infrastructure in Central and South America before and during the cold war - before the CIA/NSA's "Operation Condor": the real terror network. The CIA/Pentagon's terror network had tentacles across the globe. They were and still are the original KAOS.


What can I say... We are argueing apples and oranges. Both are arong in a very big way, aint politics grand?


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skdadl
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posted 16 December 2005 09:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just in case any of the boys is interested, the women of babble have been tracking this case since October here.

And yes, writing to the government and all the political parties. And yes, getting no substantial replies from them at all.

Kabul has long been a different story from the rest of Afghanistan (although less so, briefly, during the years of the Taliban). In that, Afghanistan is no different from most countries in the world, where an urbanized population in one or two centres live in a relatively liberalized social and cultural milieu while the majority of the country's people live in ancient agrarian settings.

The Soviets did not liberate the women of Kabul, but they didn't stop women's liberation there either.

The Soviets did, however, contribute nothing but wrong-headed destruction to the rural and mountain people of Afghanistan, as the Americans (and Canadians) are doing now. In doing so, they joined a long line of egotistical Westernized male bastards who believe they know better than anyone else how life should be arranged everywhere on this planet.

For sure, of course, they always know better than the local women.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 December 2005 10:55 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Explain Condoleeza Rice.
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Cueball
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posted 16 December 2005 11:02 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, that is tough but I will give it a shot.

Condeleeza Rice: Sometimes in history partly by chance, partly as a result of genetic heritage, partly a result of cultural heritage, and partly as a result of life and family experiences, comes along a sociopath with a truly Naploenic ability not just to talk, but also to lie.

Goebels was one such as this.

Rice on stage is like having front row seats to Naploeon at Austerlitz, where he was able to precisely predict the actions of his Russian and Austrian counterparts, and prepare nigh on complete deception.

Respectable, even if one accounts for the incompetence of the allied Russian and Austrian command. For someone of extreme intelligence to predict an intelligent response is admirable, but for someone of extreme intelligence to predict precisely, and depend on the gross stupidity of others is truly remarkable.

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2005 11:06 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Explain Condoleeza Rice.

Ah, y'know, al-Q, I could throw a bigoted overgeneralization back at you, but I'm not going to.

Shit. I give you some real connections, and you start playing shitty games like that?

We all know that the elites will always let a few tokens rise to the top. Explain Clarence Thomas. Explain Mrs Thatcher or Mrs Gandhi.

But don't let me interrupt your disgraceful interruption of this serious discussion.

Wow. Men.


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Cueball
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posted 16 December 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is actually one of the truly remarkable things about the US, and something unique in its political culture, that it has established "nation" as central to its ethos, as opposed to the old empires where racial heritage and cultural was central.

Hence, I do not think that Collin Powell and Condeleeza Rice are 'tokens' I see them as fully enfranchised representatives of the rulling class, and I think they partly support it, because the US made it possible to be that, depsite their background.

They "identify" as Americans, not Black people. Powell in particular comes from a generation of African Americans (post WW2, pre- Vietnam) where becoming a West Point officer graduate was a very respectable step into enfranchisement, and personal empowerment and symbolic of achieving equality.

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 16 December 2005 11:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Wow. Men.

I thought you weren't going to make a bigotted generalization.


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skdadl
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posted 16 December 2005 11:34 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee. There must be a serious discussion about Afghanistan somewhere on babble.
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Fidel
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posted 16 December 2005 12:58 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:

The Soviets did not liberate the women of Kabul, but they didn't stop women's liberation there either.

The Soviets did, however, contribute nothing but wrong-headed destruction to the rural and mountain people of Afghanistan, as the Americans (and Canadians) are doing now.


The Soviets did not train and arm the mujihaden to the eye teeth with stinger missiles, rifles and $5 dollar bullets.

The Soviets did not further encourage an illegal opium economy allowing war lords and drug lords to supply themselves with weapons since U.S. intervention on that side of the world began.

The Soviets did not "inadvertently" give rise to the Taliban(an extremely anti-women's rights group).

And those women and professionals trained by the Soviets, and who sided with the PDPA government that held out against the mujihaden for almost two years after the Soviets left, have little hope of furthering women's rights by allying with the Northern Alliance, religious fundementalists not far removed from the Taliban and mujihaden wrt women's rights. What a mess.


I'm sorry, Skdadl, but that's the truth.

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 16 December 2005 01:05 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel, you are trying my patience. The Soviets absolutely raped the countryside in some parts of Afghanistan, and they did that no matter who was there.

If you're going to claim that they were only fighting the CIA, I'm going to call you a naif at least, Fidel.

The Afghan mujahideen were not American controlled nor American inspired. I cannot get over your imperialist contempt for the Afghan people, Fidel, implied in so many of your posts about the war in the 1980s.


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Fidel
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posted 16 December 2005 01:21 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not interested in re-creating that conflict, several thousand miles and oceans of time after the fact. The damage is done, and there they go. I respect your opinions, Skdadl. Just not this time. I want you to have a great day otherwise, girl.

Peace out


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 16 December 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
If you're going to claim that they were only fighting the CIA, I'm going to call you a naif at least, Fidel.

Yes, your point underscores the idea that even if they were not fighting [only] the CIA, the geopolical realpolitik of it would be that they saw themselves locked in the "Great Game" and so thought that they were fighting the CIA."

This was Macnamara's take on Vietnam. Saying later that he misunderstood the Vietnamese conflict in just that way, projecting his view that the Vietnam war the advent of super-power politics, not a "civil war."

Likewise Jimmy Carter's decision to support the Moujahadein was constructed just in those terms, if onse is to believe Brezinski's commentray, so the fucking over of Afghanistan was a joint venture.

There are elements of this realpoltik analysis which carry weight in both conflicts, but are not the sum total of the events.

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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skdadl
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posted 16 December 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fidel, my "opinions" and whether you respect them don't matter a damn.

What matters is that you and everyone else respect the people of Afghanistan. That would be a nice change. It would, in fact, be a revolution, after over two hundred years.

cueball is right. The imperialists, cynics and earnest naifs all, have always beem blinded by their own fantastical, paranoid projections of reality on to the legitimate reality of living human beings. That was as true of the Soviets as it was and is of the Americans and their new buddy, Mr Putin.


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Fidel
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posted 16 December 2005 01:55 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
blah

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 December 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Fidel, my "opinions" and whether you respect them don't matter a damn.

What matters is that you and everyone else respect the people of Afghanistan. That would be a nice change. It would, in fact, be a revolution, after over two hundred years.


Afghani women, under the Soviet-backed PDPA government, were free to travel to Russia, as well as Europe, and came home bright eyed and bushy tailed and ready to practice medicine, engineering and academic teaching. And they were excited about bringing that hope and enthusiasm to outlying areas surrounding Kabul and Jalalabad where the PDPA enjoyed a little less support among the areas ruled by mujahaden fundamentalists.

For Afghanistan, this was revolution and probably the first one in history to be instigated by a women's rights movement. Can you respect that, Skdadl ?.


quote:
cueball is right. The imperialists, cynics and earnest naifs all, have always beem blinded by their own fantastical, paranoid projections of reality on to the legitimate reality of living human beings. That was as true of the Soviets as it was and is of the Americans and their new buddy, Mr Putin.

Did the Soviets really have the exact same imperialist ambitions as the Anglo-American imperialists, Skdadl?. Did they intend on educating women to become doctors, teachers and engineers so they could aspire to work in Hong Kong-style sweat shops or sew clothes like little girls do in Honduras or El Salvador or work in fire trap buildings making fireworks as it is in India ?. I don't agree with you ... again.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 16 December 2005 10:26 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Vigilante:
It's funny and sad to see Fidel constantly stroke his ideological and paternalistic viewpoint in relation to Afghan womyn and his soviet union fetish.

Are you typing with one hand and a glass of milk in the other again ?.

[ 16 December 2005: Message edited by: Fidel ]


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
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posted 17 December 2005 02:19 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
Oooohh, women were free to travel!!! It's sad that your ideological bineries can't see how fucked up this type of thinking is.
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 17 December 2005 06:33 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Afghani's were headed toward revolution and civil war, Vigilante. Believe it or no, not all Afghani's are down with the head-to-toe veil thing for women. There's an older man working down at the corner flipping pizzas this minute. He was metallurgist in Afghanistan during the 1970's and 80's. Yes, talk about fucked up. He's an engineer, and flipping pizzas in this frozen Puerto Rico without leadership. He hates what has become of his homeland, and is extremely disappointed that the Soviets gave up on his country. Dislikes the Soviets, but hates the American's more for sticking their noses in where they didn't belong.

So what was your big idea for giving monarchists the heave-ho in Kabul ?. Should they have went off and lived on the fat o' the lan' and thrown up a big "Do Not Disturb" sign for war lords and drug king pins to pay attention to ?. The Northern Alliance and U.S.-approved stooges in Kabul are nowhere for Afghani's.

And you're absolutely right about "binaries." Sometimes two dinner options are all that's offered on the menu. Infant mortality in Afghanistan is a horrendous 165 per 1000 and life expectancy of 46. What a fucking mess. FUBAR. Like the rest of the third world capitalist shitholes around the free world are in need of, Afghani's need socialism.

Viva la revolucion!


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged

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