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Author Topic: Iranian Prez. calls for Israel to be moved to Europe!
Sunny Beasty
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posted 08 December 2005 07:24 PM      Profile for Sunny Beasty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He also casts doubt on the holocaust. I wonder, is he purposely trying to start a conflict with the the West?

source:http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/08/iran.israel.reut/index.html

excerpt:
Iran leader: Move Israel to Europe
Ahmadinejad casts doubt on Holocaust

Thursday, December 8, 2005; Posted: 4:50 p.m. EST (21:50 GMT)
TEHRAN, Iran (Reuters) -- Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has expressed doubt that the Holocaust occurred and suggested Israel be moved to Europe.

His comments, reported by Iran's official IRNA news agency from a news conference he gave on Thursday in the Saudi Arabian city of Mecca, follows his call in October for Israel to be "wiped off the map," which sparked widespread international condemnation.

"Some European countries insist on saying that killed millions of Jews in furnaces and they insist on it to the extent that if anyone proves something contrary to that they condemn that person and throw them in jail," IRNA quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the of Jewish people by the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?" he said.

"If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."

Six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Ahmadinejad's remarks drew swift rebukes from Israel and Washington


From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
"Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?"

Gee, Asshole, why shouldn't Jews have a state in their homeland?


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So, is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler, enough to jusify the expulsion of 700,000 people and the expropriation of their land to make way for a Jewish homeland, and the imposition of marshal law upon the survivors, who live without rights in the land that they were born?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 07:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Assuming, of course, that you accept the claim of the Nakba, theoretically speaking.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 07:53 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, do we have to get into this whole argument again?

Here, let me summarize so we don't have to do it again:

"Why shouldn't Jews have a homeland?"
"Why do Jews have to kick Palestinians off their land in order to have a homeland?"
"Jews didn't kick Palestinians out."
"Yes they did."
"No they didn't."
"Yes they did."
"No they didn't."

I mean, really. Is that the point of this article? Or is the point of this article that a) the Iranian president denied or at least minimized the Holocaust, and b) suggested that it would have been better reparations to designate European land for the Jewish homeland?

And just so you know, I'm not endorsing (b). I'm saying that this is really what's at issue here, not the endless back-and-forth that every other thread in this forum turns into.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 07:57 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
Don't W.A.S.T.E. your time on theory, cueball.

quote:
the imposition of marshal law upon the survivors, who live without rights in the land that they were born?

An outright fucking lie.

The neutrality of this article is disputed.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 08:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
a) Watch the aggressive tone.
b) This argument's been fought a thousand times before and it really isn't the subject of this thread.

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 08:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am talking about the 3.5 million people who live under martial law in the West Bank.

So, assuming that you accept the claim that 700,000 people were driven off their land into refugee camps, most of which were later absorbed in the occupied territories where they now live under martial law, "assuming that you accept this claim," is such justified by the Holocaust?

So, "is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their (European) support to the occupiers of Jerusalem?"

A simple question really.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 08:05 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
Really Michelle?

Enlighten us then, what is the subject of the thread? Transporting the Jews back to Europe?


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is one aspect of this thread. Another one is the buring hatred that has evolved due to the European decision to insert its unwanted population in the middle of the middle east. Extradition and extermination of the Jews was Hitler's idea, and the British followed through on it.

I can't believe Jews buy the the con hook line and sinker.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 08:14 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I can't believe Jews buy the the con hook line and sinker.

What line should the Jews be buying, cueball?


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Notice, that I did not use of the singular article "the," as in "Jews" as a homogenous singularity. I used the term Jews in the general form, as in some Jews, not necessarily all Jews. I for one don't buy the acceptance of Zionist defeatism, and surender to European racism. Nor did my grandparents, nor did Viktor Frankl, who lived in Vienna after the war, nor did Victor Klemperer who lived in Dresden.

They lived through the Holocaust and the persevered, determined to not cave in.

Those guys were real men who you could respect, not your run of the mill North American Zionist, living out some kind of persecution revenge fantasy. It wasn't a fantasy for them, they were really persecuted, as were my grandprents, to a lesser extent.

Klemperer said: "Why trade narrow nationalism in Germany for narrow nationalism in Palestine."

Now, again, since you seem to be able to do little more than evade the question: Does the persecution of the Jews of Europe, justify the persecution of the Arabs of Palestine?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 09:02 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ginger Jar:
Really Michelle?

Enlighten us then, what is the subject of the thread? Transporting the Jews back to Europe?


I already did. Quit putting words in my mouth. I said that the subject of this thread is the Iranian President's statements. Nowhere did I say that we should talk about whether "the Jews" should be transported back to Europe, and it really pisses me off that you would try to imply that I did.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sunny Beasty
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posted 08 December 2005 09:04 PM      Profile for Sunny Beasty     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I find distressing is that statements like this do not advance Iran's interests even one iota. I have long advocated better relations between Iran and the West, and these sort of statements almost seem calculated to kill any sort of detente since they anger both the Western right and the left (especially the holocaust denial). The US was always a lost cause but under Khatami, the Iranians had moved towards establishing closer relations with nations such as France, Germany and Russia. It all seems hopeless now.
From: Toronto, Ontario | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:05 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
Well cueball, I could talk about "the" Canadians, Or "the" Americans.

As we are talking about the Jews, does the persecution of Jews in Israel, justify rhe persecution of Palestinian Arabs in Jordan?

The persecution of Natives in Canada?

Why do you evade the right of Jews to a state in their homeland?

Jews have more right to their homeland in Israel, than oh, let's say, European migrants have to their homeland in Canada.

And Arab citizens of Israel have as many rights as Natives do in Canada.

Again, cueball, I ask:
What line should the Jews be buying?

Don't duck the issue. Israelis are there to stay, as we in Canada are here to stay.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
Yes Michelle, those were the comments of Ahmadinejad.

I didn't mean to suggest they were your personal view.

The Iranian president's comments are the subject of the thread.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 09:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank-you, Sunny Beasty, for posting something other than the usual merry-go-round. Too bad Ginger Jar isn't getting the hint.

That's right, Ginger Jar, the Iranian president's remarks are the subject of this thread. But you're turning it into a debate about whether the Jews should have a homeland and whether it should be where it is now, instead of, perhaps, the political ramifications of the Iranian president's (yoo hoo, remember him?) speech.

Every thread in this forum doesn't have to be about the same thing, you know. They don't all have to turn into the exchange I wrote above.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:17 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
????

Is this a debate about Jews, and Israel? If it's something else, then what Michelle? It's not all about you and me, Michelle.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 December 2005 09:18 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not THE Jews. Some Jews. Your usage, is alike to the usage of David Irving. I.e. the Jews as a world-wide consortium that thinks and act alike.

My beef is with other Jews who are Zionists. I can think of nothing that would have please Hitler more than to have all the Jews, stuck in fucking camp in the middle of a desert suroundd by gun toting enemies. He'd have loved it.

Look at it the Zionists are even building a wall! Ha ha ha.

The plan completed. As Zygmund Buaman put it, "Hitler may not have suceeded in turning the world against the Jews, but he did suceed in turning the Jews against the world."

Nice play world for New York settler freaks to visit and live out the perecution complex, just as long as they can still send their kids to Colombia, when its time to sign up for the IDF!

It is not suprising that your use of language is exactly THE same, as those who use the term THE Jews.

You and your friends can keep your racist persecution complex, and your unfulfilled concentration holiday camp in the sun.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Andrew_Jay
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posted 08 December 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Andrew_Jay        Edit/Delete Post
Good to see that he's been able to moderate his views from "Israel should be wiped off the map" to "Israel should be shunted around the map"
From: Extremism is easy. You go right and meet those coming around from the far left | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:26 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
You and your friends can keep your persecution complex, and your unfulfilled concentration holiday camp in the sun.

What an ugly analogy. Are you trying to tell us Israel is a concentration camp?

Cueball, you seem to be unhinged by an irrational hatred. Care to tell us what's behind it?


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 December 2005 09:29 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Look at it the Zionists are even building a wall! Ha ha ha.

It's incredible, as if the Zionists carry around a psychic ghetto that needs to be physically manifested.

They're never going to survive unless they integrate with their neighbours and allow the "natives" justice and equality within their borders.

Otherwise, someday some crazy bugger like Ahmadinejad is likely going lead the movement that will eventually destroy the Kingdom of Israel...again.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 08 December 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The first time I saw this headline I fell out of my chair laughing at the sheer ballsiness (and oddity) of the statement.

In all seriousness, though, there's been some interesting only half-sarcastic pieces I've seen occasionally, asking why Germany hadn't been forced to give up a good chunk of its land to the Jewish people it had tried to get rid of.

'Course, that's ultimately speculative in nature.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:36 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Otherwise, someday some crazy bugger like Ahmadinejad is likely going lead the movement that will eventually destroy the Kingdom of Israel...again.


"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

Nice to know where you stand, al-Qa'bong.


From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ginger Jar
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posted 08 December 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Ginger Jar        Edit/Delete Post
Remember, al-Qa'bong, Jews were there before Allah appeared on earth.
From: green glen | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 10:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ginger Jar:
Cueball, you seem to be unhinged by an irrational hatred. Care to tell us what's behind it?

quote:
Nice to know where you stand, al-Qa'bong.

Okay, goodbye. Seriously, that kind of shit is just not necessary here. See you.

Just to be clear, for when the usual folks get on my case about why I banned him - it's because he's totally twisted al-Qa'bong's post into something he obviously didn't say (that he wants Israel wiped off the map), and also because he's accusing Cueball of "irrational hatred", both of which are way over the line.

[ 08 December 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 08 December 2005 10:06 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And frankly, this thread is so ugly it'll never get back on track, and I don't feel like babysitting it any longer, so I'm closing it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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