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Author Topic: Ariel Sharon leaving Likud
Hephaestion
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posted 20 November 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CBC Radio is reporting that Sharon is leaving Likud to start a new political party, possibly in partnership with former Labour Party leader Shimon Perez... anyone else got any more info. on this, or is it just breaking?
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 20 November 2005 10:01 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know, but I'm pretty sure this is happening in the Middle East, so...
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 20 November 2005 10:04 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fantastic, Arik! Split the right-wing vote and let the Socialist Hordes take over the Knesset! Brilliant! Bravo!


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Paul Gross
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posted 20 November 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Paul Gross   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Under Israel's PR system, vote splitting is not much of an issue and if Sharon is doing it with Peres' support then it's not likely to be seen as so right wing.

Here's the story from the The Guardian

quote:
Ariel Sharon, Israel's prime minister, has decided to leave the Likud party he founded and force new elections, it was reported in Israeli media last night.

His decision which has been the subject of months of speculation will send a shockwave through Israeli politics and precipitate elections in March.

According to reports, Mr Sharon left the party, which he founded in 1973, at 10pm last night local time and began informing his supporters.


and
http://news.haaretz.co.il/hasen/spages/647757.html

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: Paul Gross ]


From: central Centretown in central Canada | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
A longsuffering conservative
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posted 20 November 2005 10:34 PM      Profile for A longsuffering conservative     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is either incredibly brillant or a bonehead play. Rumour has it that former Labour prime minister Shimon Peres will be joining Prime Minister Ariel Sharon as part of this new party.

One commentator on BBC TV pointed out that both men had links with the Labour party's previous incarnation prior to Sharon's role in the formation of the Likud Party.

Latest link:

www.news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article328291.ece

Doesn't seem to be working sorry. Try this one:

www.news.independent.co.uk

[ 20 November 2005: Message edited by: A longsuffering conservative ]


From: The Sovereignist Dark Side | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Being
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posted 20 November 2005 10:36 PM      Profile for Being   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Isolate Bibi...
From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 21 November 2005 12:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Gee, how incredibly shocking; the peace-loving left-winger Peres finding common cause with the bloodthirsty fascist Sharon.

So what else is new?

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 21 November 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Paul Gross:
Under Israel's PR system, vote splitting is not much of an issue and if Sharon is doing it with Peres' support then it's not likely to be seen as so right wing.

Wouldn't the creation of another party still dilute the right-wing vote somewhat? The "splinter phenomenon" is most well-known in Italy, for example.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 21 November 2005 01:44 AM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I never know quite what goes through Sharon's head these days. He does all kinds of crazy, silly things, and nobody really knows why.
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josh
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posted 21 November 2005 08:47 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

A Sharon associate said that when the premier quits the Likud, Sharon's party could become the largest in the Knesset and predicted that not only Likud MKs would join it.

Numerous non-Likud personalities were also reportedly planning to stand with the prime minister, including former Shin Bet chief Avi Dichter, Ben Gurion University President Avishai Braverman, Professor Uriel Reichman and former Likud minister Dan Meridor, who has expressed a desire to return to politics.

Vice Premier Shimon Peres, who engaged Sunday in long talks with Sharon regarding future cooperation, will not leave the Labor Party to join Sharon's new party, Peres' aides said Monday.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/648117.html


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 21 November 2005 01:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Jerusalem — In a bold political gamble, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon on Monday asked Israel's president to dissolve Parliament, pushing for a March election after deciding to leave his hard-line Likud Party and to form a new centrist political movement.

Mr. Sharon's decision to leave Likud, the party he helped establish in 1973, redraws Israel's political map, formalizing his transformation from hardliner to moderate. It also increases the chances of progress in peacemaking with the Palestinians.

His confidants say Mr. Sharon felt Likud hard-liners, who had tried to block this summer's Gaza pullout, were imposing too many constraints on him and would prevent future peace moves.


Sharon Quits in Bold Move


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 November 2005 01:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wlecome back Peech we missed you.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 21 November 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon is not leaving Likud. The Likud is Sharon. He is simply cleaning house. The name may chnage but it will still be Likud.
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Peech
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posted 21 November 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:
Thanks good to "see you" too. Well time will tell whether you are right or whether it is truly a more centrist move. In politics....sometimes any movement is good. Especially in the Middle East.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 21 November 2005 01:48 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
AL Q.:
Please free up some space in your message box.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 21 November 2005 07:31 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Poll: Sharon beats Labor, secures third term as PM

Were the elections to the 17th Knesset to be held now, Ariel Sharon would win a third term in office as prime minister and could set up a center-left coalition with Labor, Shinui and Meretz-Yahad that would have 66 seats.

The survey showed that Sharon's new party would be the largest in the Knesset, with 30 seats. Labor under Amir Peretz is maintaining a steady 26 seats. The Likud, which does not have a new leader, would crash and remain with only 15 seats.



Poll taken in next election

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 22 November 2005 07:19 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't see Meretz-Yahad ever joining a Sharon-led government. But I could see them merging with a Peretz-led Labor if enough of Labor's right-wing joins up with Sharon.
From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Alan Avans
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posted 22 November 2005 01:15 PM      Profile for Alan Avans   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by josh:
I can't see Meretz-Yahad ever joining a Sharon-led government. But I could see them merging with a Peretz-led Labor if enough of Labor's right-wing joins up with Sharon.

I think it's all a play for the Ashkenazic vote. Peres will leave Labour with Peretz having little other than the Sephardic and Arab vote.


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josh
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posted 22 November 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Election set for March 28:
quote:

Israeli officials set an early parliamentary election for March 28 on Tuesday, a day after Prime Minister Ariel Sharon rocked the nation's political system by quitting his rightist Likud to found a centrist party.

Lawmakers will put the final touches to a motion to dissolve parliament and hold early elections and will approve it in three separate votes on Wednesday, a parliamentary official said.

The election had been scheduled for November 2006, but President Moshe Katsav struck a deal with the parliament speaker and attorney general on Tuesday to bring it forward because of the crisis triggered by Sharon's political thunderbolt.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1337738


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DrConway
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posted 22 November 2005 05:13 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Centrist"? Sharon? Please.

I shall now officially fall out of my chair laughing.


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The Danite
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posted 22 November 2005 05:53 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
The Israeli politcal discourse has changed alot over the past decade.With Sharons quitting the Likud the far right are going to have stand in the clear light of day without any centrist fig leaf to cover their hard line postions.The fact that both Sharons party and labor accepts the reality of a future Palestinian state means that for the first time the debate between the main contenders is not about if their should be a Palestinian state but rather what should it look like.To think even 20 years ago the issue of a Palestinian state would be the mani issue in an Isralei election would have seemed laughable.To see Ariel Sharon even involved in such a debate was impossible.Sharons move is important as Israel can finally have the debate it needs to have at this time, which is the final status issues with the Palestinians, without having deluded hard line ideologues latching themselves onto the centre left and centre right postions, they are on their own now and the field has been cleared of alot of unneeded growth.I will be an interesting election.Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 November 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
"Centrist"? Sharon? Please.
I shall now officially fall out of my chair laughing.


Careful not to hurt yourself.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 November 2005 08:05 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
It will be an important election, with real issues. And it makes me wonder how sanctimonious I (we)can be to sit in judgement over the current politics in Israel, especially with the current disrespectful conduct of the "parliamentarians" in Ottawa. It seems in Ottawa it's all about tactics rather than real issues. I hope that the election Israel is more meaningful. (I also hope we do not end up with Stephen Harper as PM!)
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 November 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Fantastic, Arik! Split the right-wing vote and let the Socialist Hordes take over the Knesset! Brilliant! Bravo!


question: How can one man be a hoarde?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 November 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Last member of a clan, a Hoarde from the Mongol Ord, which means clan. So I guess sharon could be a Hoarde.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 November 2005 08:21 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Last member of a clan, a Hoarde from the Mongol Ord, which means clan. So I guess sharon could be a Hoarde.

I was actually refering to Amir Peretz.
He seems to be the only socalist in the Knesset.
Are you sure horde only refers to one person?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 November 2005 09:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why not, if he is the last member of the clan?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 November 2005 09:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Whose on first?

Look man, I'm really confused, is this an attempt at linguistic wit? If so, I don't get it. I'm sorry for ruining your joke.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 22 November 2005 09:57 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ord in Mongol means clan. Over the years this has become to mean a large groups of wild barbarians. However, the original term was not size specific. Do you see what I am saying? Anyway, its just trivia.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 November 2005 10:00 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yep. Just warn me the next time you want to geek out, OK.

[ 22 November 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 22 November 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was being tongue-in-cheek with the socialist hordes thing. Christ, you people wouldn't recognize sarcastic humor if it walked up to you and slapped you in the face.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
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posted 22 November 2005 11:34 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ouch! Slapped by sarcasm!
From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 November 2005 11:51 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
question: How can one man be a hoarde?

A trick question?

Has the hoard of nutrients in Arik's ever-expanding girth caused him to become as large as many Ariks?

Has he become a horde unto himself?

[ 22 November 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 November 2005 11:54 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

A trick question?

Has the hoard of nutrients in Arik's ever-expanding girth caused him to become as large as many Ariks?

Has he become a horde in himself?


I was being Ironic.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 November 2005 03:27 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ariel Sharon's Flight of Fantasy

His new party could revolutionize Israel's political culture.

In 1975, Ariel Sharon was an adviser to the then-inexperienced prime minister, Yitzhak Rabin. The episode lasted only eight months; Sharon quickly realized that the position provided him with little opportunity to influence policy, and, after battling some other operatives, he quit. When he left, one of the few achievements he could point to was a report he submitted to Rabin recommending vast changes to Israel's system of government: moving toward the separate, direct election of the prime minister and forming a smaller and more reliable government, a government that would be more obedient, since it would be nominated personally by the prime minister, like the relationship between the U.S. president and his Cabinet.


Complete Article From Slate

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
sndngr
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posted 23 November 2005 10:45 PM      Profile for sndngr        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Gee, how incredibly shocking; the peace-loving left-winger Peres finding common cause with the bloodthirsty fascist Sharon.

So what else is new?

[ 21 November 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


I think Sharon's strategy is to unilaterally disengage from the disputed territories. Once this happens, and inevitably there's another senseless, brutal attack from a "liberated" area, the consequences the "Palestinians" have brought on themselves will be fearsome.

There will be, justifiably, mass expulsions. Many will die. That is what the Muslims appear to want. As one of their tapes said, after the Madrid attacks, you (the West) love life, we love death. They'll get their wish - in spades. Hopefully some of the cowards that educate young men in madrassas to blow themselves up so innocents die will be the victims, not people trying to make a better life for themselves.


From: Manchester, Vermont, USA | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Thrasymachus
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posted 23 November 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for Thrasymachus     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ok, I'll refrain from feeding the nazi troll.

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: Thrasymachus ]


From: South of Hull | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 23 November 2005 10:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He's gone.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 November 2005 06:01 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Whew, the air's a little cleaner, now.
Thanks. Michelle.

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 November 2005 06:05 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Gee, how incredibly shocking; the peace-loving left-winger Peres finding common cause with the bloodthirsty fascist Sharon.

I am, however curious as to your intent and meaning in this post, Al.
For example are you speaking figuratively or literally. And if the latter, some examples please?

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 24 November 2005 08:00 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh for christ's sake.

I know I'm not supposed to play hall monitor here, but, Peech, do you really have nothing better to do than be so obtusely literal-minded that a concrete sidewalk has more depth of thought?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 November 2005 08:11 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Dr. C:
Everyone else in this forum is accountable for exactly what they post. So I will wait with interest for a response (if any) from Al.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 November 2005 11:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Everyone else in this forum is accountable for exactly what they post.

You're getting pretty handy with that bold function, aren't you?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 November 2005 11:09 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Al! Good to see ya! Yep "boldly" going where no one has gone before (or something like that...)

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 24 November 2005 11:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al-Qa'bong hasn't posted anything against babble policy, so we can probably dispense with the third degree now. If you disagree with his description, then feel free to say so instead of playing games.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 November 2005 11:20 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
OK,let's start here:

Fascism

quote:
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Sounds more like leaders of some of Israel's "neighbours" to me (or many other leaders other than the democraticaly elected Sharon.)

[ 25 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 25 November 2005 05:14 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do think that, with his decision to allow the fascist "Christian" Lebanese militias go to into the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps(in the full knowledge that the only reason they were going into those camps was to slaughter innocent Palestinian refugees in retaliation for the murder of the fascist president elect of Lebanon)and with his famous statement that "the dirty work of Zionism is not done", that we can fairly call Arik Sharon a bloodthirsty fascist.
From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 November 2005 05:47 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Lebanese militias who did Sharon's dirty work and Franco's Spanish fascists were both called "Phalangists," and not coincidentally.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 25 November 2005 06:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
NO. No. No. Sharon is too stupid to realize what would happen. He thought the Phelangist's were like the Peace Corp.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 25 November 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 25 November 2005 11:02 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
By contrast Yasser Arafat was a democratic pacifist. That's why he won the Nobel peace prize , but was also personally responsible for the murder of many innocent people not to mention personally ordering the execution of the Munich athletes . So your accusations about Sharon pale in comparison my friends. And we haven't even begun to talk about the other real fascists in the Middle East such as the "royals" in Saudi Arabia, the tyrant in Lybia, the lunatic in Iran, the former leader of "free" Iraq and Sudan etc. But of course it's not politically correct to criticize those murdering fascists is it? At least criticism is allowed in Israel.Try it in any of those great "democracies" if you dare.

As usual in Babble a thread that starts out as offering the hope of change (any change in the ME is good) ends with the usual gaggle of cynicism, and condemnation, because it's so much easier than offer anything positive.
Very unfortuante.

[ 25 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 25 November 2005 11:32 PM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
By contrast Yasser Arafat was a democratic pacifist. That's why he won the Nobel peace prize , but was also personally responsible for the murder of many innocent people not to mention personally ordering the execution of the Munich athletes . So your accusations about Sharon pale in comparison my friends. And we haven't even begun to talk about the other real fascists in the Middle East such as the "royals" in Saudi Arabia, the tyrant in Lybia, the lunatic in Iran, the former leader of "free" Iraq and Sudan etc. But of course it's not politically correct to criticize those murdering fascists is it? At least criticism is allowed in Israel.Try it in any of those great "democracies" if you dare.

Meh. Boring. Can't you do better? If not, please spare us. That's the same stupid rhetorical ploy we've been getting here for years. Why waste time responding to false imputations and assertions not even based on careful observation or knowledge of this site's history? Moving right along...

Speaking of freedom of the press, before Sharon was elected, Ha'aretz ran a pullout section on Ariel Sharon's war crimes. It makes for grim reading.

If you want to talk about hope, Peretz inspires more hope in me than the Bulldozer any day of the week.

[ 25 November 2005: Message edited by: rasmus raven ]


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
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posted 26 November 2005 12:02 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rasmus raven:

Meh. Boring. Can't you do better? If not, please spare us. That's the same stupid rhetorical ploy we've been getting here for years. Why waste time responding to false imputations and assertions not even based on careful observation or knowledge of this site's history? Moving right along...

Speaking of freedom of the press, before Sharon was elected, Ha'aretz ran a pullout section on Ariel Sharon's war crimes. It makes for grim reading.

If you want to talk about hope, Peretz inspires more hope in me than the Bulldozer any day of the week.


1. My point was that your comments are more of the boring rhetoric that you complain of, it's just not "your" flavour.

2. "War Crimes" has been so overused by that it has ZERO meaning.

3. I never said I liked or approved of Sharon, but I equally dislike, BS, propaganda,PC rhetoric and blatant hypocrisy !

4. Calling Sharon a "blood thirsty" "Fascist" may be de rigour here at Babble but it smacks of intellectual dishonesty and of a double standard.

5. Peres is unproven yet but yes it does give hope and,

6. The thread was about the weakening of Likud by Sharon leaving, or perhaps you prefer Bibi?

So.. sorry you find facts about murder by real fascists boring.

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 November 2005 12:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
By contrast Yasser Arafat was a democratic pacifist. That's why he won the Nobel peace prize , but was also personally responsible for the murder of many innocent people not to mention personally ordering the execution of the Munich athletes . So your accusations about Sharon pale in comparison my friends. And we haven't even begun to talk about the other real fascists in the Middle East such as the "royals" in Saudi Arabia, the tyrant in Lybia, the lunatic in Iran, the former leader of "free" Iraq and Sudan etc. But of course it's not politically correct to criticize those murdering fascists is it? At least criticism is allowed in Israel.Try it in any of those great "democracies" if you dare.

[ 25 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Actually Peech, the Palestinian fellow who came forward with his acount of his participation in the actual Munich attack, stated that Arafat "knew" of the operation and may have actually helped finance it, but has stated that their was no intention to kill the athletes beforehand. One might ask how it was that Arafat (in Tripoli?) would have personally ordered the killing of the athletes, given that he was not there, and also why if the explicit intention of the operation was to kill the athletes why the Palestinians involved didn't kill them right off the bat and then make their get away?

At the time there was reasonable expectation that no one would be killed, as most governments still negotiated with hijackers and political kidnappers. It was Golda Meier who explicitly forbade any negotiation.

Therefore, I see no way you can establish that Arafat personally ordered the killings, as I pointed out he was not here, and the only person who was made it clear that Arafat's involvement was peripheral, and that their was reasonable expectation for a negotiated end to the stand-off, without killing.

So, I am sorry, helping co-oridinate financing for a political kidnapping, which their is good evidence to suggest would be a non-lethal event, in which 9 people were killed, is not the same as allowing for the massacre of between 800 and 1500 civilians, in a situation in which only a fool would believe that the outcome would not be a savage retaliation.

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Actually Peech, the Palestinian fellow who came forward with his acount of his participation in the actual Munich attack, stated that Arafat "knew" of the operation and may have actually helped finance it, but has stated that their was no intention to kill the athletes beforehand. One might ask how it was that Arafat (in Tripoli?) would have personally ordered the killing of the athletes, given that he was not there, and also why if the explicit intention of the operation was to kill the athletes why the Palestinians involved didn't kill them right off the bat and then make their get away?

At the time there was reasonable expectation that no one would be killed, as most governments still negotiated with hijackers and political kidnappers. It was Golda Meier who explicitly forbade any negotiation.

Therefore, I see no way you can establish that Arafat personally ordered the killings, as I pointed out he was not here, and the only person who was made it clear that Arafat's involvement was peripheral, and that their was reasonable expectation for a negotiated end to the stand-off, without killing.

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]



Actually Cue I completely disagree with you. Simon Reeve the journalist who wrote the exhaustive book "One Day In September" was able to prove that Arafat knew and, approved and ordered the operation.
Secondly the Germans refused to allow Israel to rescue or participate in the operation and then they singlehandedly through gross negligence botched the whole thing by: underestimating the amount of terrorists, not providing enough sharpshooters, having a team of police "vote" to decide it was too risky and left the site. The Germans doomed the athletes to death because they were incompetent, aragant and (according to Reeve) anti-semitic.
Meir was helpless so your allegations that they died because of her are scandalous and just not accurate.

The Germans years later staged a hijacking of a plane so they could release the two Munich terrorists they did capture in order to avoid closer scrutiny of their handy work..
Furthermore Reeve questioned whether the terrorists ever intended to release the athletes. He postulated that it was likely a suicide mission. I suggest you give it a read.(BTW only one "fellow" survived from the Palestinian murder team) and he is still in hiding.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Reeve
http://www.de44.dial.pipex.com/

http://www.de44.dial.pipex.com/sr/page3/page3.html

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rasmus
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posted 26 November 2005 12:31 AM      Profile for rasmus   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I find boring is the bullshit line that "all these Arab states are so horrible and you don't talk about that." I completely stipulate to your case about Saudi Arabia (which I've complained about since about 1995, long before it was fashionable to do so), Iran et al. I don't stipulate to your imputation that "babblers" en bloc don't care about these facts or don't talk about them.

It's true that Israel's democracy sets it apart from its neighbours (with Lebanon rapidly becoming an exception). It's also true that Israel's racism and colonialism set it apart from its neighbours.

Saudi Arabia, while intolerant of religious minorities and a monstrosity in terms of human rights and freedoms, is different. It is not a case of one people (a nation) oppressing another people (a nation). Even a case like Iran, which is a highly multi-ethnic state under Persian hegemony, is different, because there are no national liberation movements, nor the inklings of them. Now, if you look at Turkey, on the other hand, it is more democratic, and it also is characterized by the oppression of peoples by a hegemonic nation: there is the genocide of the Armenians, and the continued oppression of the Kurds. So there you might find a bit of a parallel, although obviously every case is particular. If you talk about China, which is not a democracy, there you can find some parallel in Tibet. Or you can look at fairly democratic societies like Australia, Canada and the US, which are racist and colonialist in nature. It's quite common, in fact, that a racist, colonialist society is also relatively democratic. Look at apartheid South Africa (which Israel had close relations with).

I am less concerned about whether the "fascist" epithet is correct, although, technically, perhaps there is some truth to it when applied to Sharon. But if it is correct, the very fact that Israel is a democracy is what makes fascism so tragic and dangerous a choice. Indeed, fascism is precisely a threat in democracies in crisis.


From: Fortune favours the bold | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 12:37 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Rasmus:
I agree with all you wrote (practically) in your last post up to the last 2 sentences.
And I don't think we are going to agree much more than that. My point is this...(as I have said before) so now where do we go from here (beyond rhetoric)to work to wards a peaceful resolution of the conflict with dignity to all? I truly believe most Israelis (and Palestinians) want that.

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 November 2005 12:53 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Actually Cue I completely disagree with you. Simon Reeve the journalist who wrote the exhaustive book "One Day In September" was able to prove that Arafat knew and, approved and ordered the operation.

That is right.

And the source he uses and believes to be truthful, says quite explicitly that they did not intend to kill anyone before the operaion began. Therefore, since Arafat was not there, there is no way he could have "personally ordered" the killing, as you stated before.

If you believe this source is credible, and there is no reason not to, in the essential fact that Arafat knew and approved of the operation, then you must also believe that the same source is also credible on the issue of the parameters of the operation as expressed to Arafat, when he "knew and approved" of it.

This holds true unless you have other evidence, other than your personal impression of Arafat's character. If the source is not lying about Arafat's involvement, and disclosed this information, then why do you doubt it on the issue of the nature of the operation, as also disclosed by the same source.

Either the source is credible or it is not. Pick one.

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 01:01 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue: I am not sure I understand all the nuiances of your last post... I am just too tired and it aggravated my headache. No insult intended. Why not read Reeve's book. It's well balanced. It's a fascinating account of Munich and the Israeli opperation of revenge after the fact.(BTW He is very critical of Israel)
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 November 2005 01:08 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is an encapsulation of the statments that indicate the involvement of the PLO executive in the operation. This is the only known Palestinian eyewitness alive, whom has admitted his involvement, and who explicitly in a position to know all the details, and who has fingered Arafat's involvment directly.

quote:
In his autobiography, Memoirs of a Palestinian Terrorist, first published in France in 1999, and later in a written interview with Sports Illustrated, [15] Daoud, now in his seventies, writes that funds for Munich were provided by Mahmoud Abbas, Chairman of the PLO since November 11, 2004 and President of the Palestinian National Authority since January 15, 2005. [16] [17] [18]

Though he didn't know what the money was being spent for, longtime Fatah official Mahmoud Abbas, aka Abu Mazen, was responsible for the financing of the Munich attack. (Daoud 1999)

Daoud, who lives with his wife on a pension provided by the Palestinian Authority, has said that, although Yasser Arafat was not involved in conceiving or implementing the attack, "the [Munich] operation had the endorsement of Arafat." Daoud writes in his autobiography that Arafat saw Daoud off on the mission with the words "Allah protect you." Daoud provided no evidence to support his claims and Arafat never responded to them.


Munich massacre

If this guy is lying on the issue of Arafat's knowledge of the attack, why would he even make the claim?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 01:24 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:
Yep that's the guy. So why would I choose to believe him, an admitted murderer and terrorist over an independent jounalist who interviewed many people including him?
I think not. Either he is boasting or covering up.

quote:
The attack led directly to the deaths of 11 Israeli athletes, five of the eight kidnappers, and one German police officer, and was followed by a series of Israeli revenge assassinations of the principal planners.

Author Simon Reeve writes that the Munich massacre was one of the most significant terror attacks of recent times, one that "thrust the Palestinian cause into the world spotlight, set the tone for decades of conflict in the Middle East, and launched a new era of international terrorism" (Reeve 2001).


BTW if I recall correctly the German police officer was shot by one of his own because they were, undertrained, incompetent, ill-prepared, scared, overwhelmed and in the dark (literally they hadn't lit the airfield)!

This is really telling:

quote:
On October 29, a German Lufthansa jet was hijacked and demands were made for the release of the three Black September members being held for trial. The men were subsequently released by Germany. Some commentators suspect that the German government released the terrorists to avoid the embarrassment of having to deal with them (Reeve 2001). In the film "One Day in September," evidence is cited that German authorities had actually worked with the hijackers to engineer the event. This would allow Germany to release the hostages in good international standing, while distancing themselves from the terrorists, and any further operations in Germany. In the film, General Wegener of the German Army replies to these charges as "Very possible. Quite possible."

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 November 2005 07:16 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, either your source is credible or it is not.

You can always make up a story by picking the "facts" that you like from a narrative, and simply say that anything that contradicts your preffered view is a lie.

Not much point in that, I am afraid.

So, if he's a liar, then he might just be making the whole thing up. The Arafat part too. Why not? being a Palestinian militan who is friends with Arafat has currency in some circles. Look Arafat even saw him off at the airport: "he is a star!"

On the other hand if he is "covering up" as you say, why volunteer any information at all?

Anyway this is the only 'verified' and identified witness in this case. On the other hand, a lot of people were on hand at Sabra and Shatilla, and it is clear that Sharon let the foxes into the chicken coop.

As for the conspiracy theory about German co-operation with the hijackers, etc. That alone is enough to put Reeve in with the Israel did 9/11 crowd. Conspiracy theory bunko!

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 03:51 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Cue, sounds like you're believing your own propaganda:
1. The "conspiracy theory" is not a conspiracy theory. One of the widows of the athletes sued the German government and got disclosure of documents confirming Germany's incompetence in the "rescue" operation, its unwillingness to allow any outsiders (including Israel) to help, and collaboration with the hijackers to release the prisoners.It's all documented.It's even on the Wikedea page you cited for gosh sakes (or didn't you read your own source!)
2. I don't buy your theory of throwing out the baby with th bath water, Just because I don't believe part of your "source's" version doesn't mean ArafAT didn't control the operation in some way.
3. Before you defame or ridicule the author (who is internationally acclaimed and whose film adaptation won and academy award) you may wish to read it, but that would of course permit the facts to get in the way of ideology.
4. Sharon was never convicted or tried for "war crimes". And was cleared of intentionally arranging the massacre at Shatilla. It is arguable that he knew what would happen and that alone is reprehensible. There is a big difference between that and financing, planning and celebrating terror and murder, such was ans is done by Iran, Iraq, etc in assisting with acts against Israel by "freedom fighters", "militia", "militants" or whatever other name you want to give to plain old fashioned murderers.

PS
I like your new (lawyer) "signature".

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
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posted 26 November 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech, that was a non reply reply.

The issue isn't the screwups at the time of the event. It's the co-operation of the German government wth the plane hijackers.

I've seen the movie. My recollection of it was he was letting a lot of interviews stand on their own, thus providing evidence rather than judgement.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 26 November 2005 04:29 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look Peech, I am not arguing that Arafat does not share blame for what happened at Munich, as he was clearly, according to credible witnesess involved at the higher echelons of the operatioon. What I am saying is that there is no evidence that Arafat "personally ordered the killings," which is a highy inflated description of the type and manner of his involvement.

He was not involved at the operational, level of command. However, Sharon was operationally involved in Sabra and Shatila, as he was directly responsible as the commander in the field of the IDF in Lebanon at the time of Sabra and Shatilla, even possibly within earshot of the executions.

Of course command has its responsibilities, so Arafat is not clean on this issue, but I could say the same thing for the Knesset and Begin, as they gave permission and ordered financing for IDF operations in Lebanon, which created the circumstances under which the war crimes of Sabra and Shatila took place.

This does not amount to Begin "personallly ordereing the killings" of the people of the refugee camps.

Edited to add: I am using the term "operational" in its military sense, as opposed to strategic or tactical. In this case Arafat's involement was apparently in a strategic logistics role, in which he was -- possibly even deliberatetly kept in the dark -- why would he need to know the details?

[ 26 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 26 November 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I don't think Sharon or Begin can be compared to Arafat's legacy of murder although I do think they are culpable for their involvement in the atrocities you mentioned.
Otherwise I am not in total disagreement with your post. So there!


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 27 November 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think 9 people killed in a hostage taking, that from all appearances was intended to be symbolic, as opposed to murderous, is the same as forcing people to stay in their homes with small arms fire, prior to collapsing them over their heads through demolition, or helping co-ordinate the investment of a refugee camp with death squads.

Just my opinion.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 November 2005 02:16 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think Sharon or Begin can be compared to Arafat's legacy of murder although I do think they are culpable for their involvement in the atrocities you mentioned.

I guess you hadn't heard that Sharon commanded a death squad during his errant youth, or that Begin began his political career as a terrorist.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 27 November 2005 02:20 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:
Yes you are right. I think the years of organization, planning and finacing of murder of thousands of innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in shopping centres and the execution of (just a few) bound up and helpless athletes who watched as their fellows were murdered 1st, pales in the shadow of Sharon's permitting Lebanese miltia into a village when he should have know what would happen.

Just my opinion.

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 November 2005 02:26 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You forgot to mention pizza parlours.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 27 November 2005 02:28 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Arafat's Legacy

Godfather of Terror

Arafat's Real Purpose

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 27 November 2005 02:30 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Back to the original theme of the thread:
quote:
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is likely to gain cabinet approval Sunday to name members of his new Kadima faction to replace the Labor Party ministers who resigned last week.

The appointments would be temporary, and Sharon himself is believed likely to retain for himself the portfolios of interior minister and vice-premier.


Sharon to Name New Cabinet Members

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 November 2005 02:52 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think many babblers have ever said much in support of Arafat, so I'm not sure who you're aiming your attacks at. Besides, unlike Sharon, Arafat isn't running for office, and hasn't been in a position to do so for some time.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 27 November 2005 03:04 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:
I think this is relevant, have you seen this film:

Scared Sacred

Which in part deals with:

The Parents Circle

quote:
An organization of bereaved families supporting peace, reconciliation and tolerance. They operate a Families Forum whose members include hundreds of Israeli and Palestinian who have lost loved ones to the Israeli-Arab conflict and act to prevent further bereavement.

Both sides have suffered and will continue to suffer as long as there is a conflict. The only real hope is through dialogue and not blame. It's easier to sink into that mode (blame) rather than open up the dialogue. These people (Palestinians & Israelis) have already lost so much (loved ones) and no longer have the fear which prevented the dialogue.

Any way food for thought.

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 27 November 2005 07:33 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Cue:
Yes you are right. I think the years of organization, planning and finacing of murder of thousands of innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in shopping centres and the execution of (just a few) bound up and helpless athletes who watched as their fellows were murdered 1st, pales in the shadow of Sharon's permitting Lebanese miltia into a village when he should have know what would happen.


[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


He DID know what would happen. Sharon is a sabra. He knew the only reason the militia went into the camp was to slaughter the innocent. Sharon is a pig, and there's no reason for any honorable pro-Israeli person to defend him.

And did it ever occur to you that a lot of Palestinians may have BECOME terrorists because of events like the Sabra and Shatila massacre?

Don't ever imply that I'm an apologist for Arafat. Pointing out that actions have consequences is not apologism, it is the exercise of common sense.

Hopefully, Sharon will fall in this election, and Israel can have a government led by sane, open minded people, not spite-fueled professional murderers like Sharon.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 27 November 2005 07:44 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Avans:

I think it's all a play for the Ashkenazic vote. Peres will leave Labour with Peretz having little other than the Sephardic and Arab vote.


Hellooooooo...the Sephardic community is the majority of the Israeli electorate. Combined with the Israeli Arab vote(if those two groups ended up voting as a bloc[admittedly a somewhat unlikely scenario, but hey, they both like couscous and roast lamb so who knows?])they'd come to something like 60% of the vote in Israel proper.

Plus, there are a lot of Ashkenazim who are very enthusiastic about Amir Peretz, and are glad to see Labor returning to the social democratic heritage Shimon Peres had almost succeeded in totally abandoning. And neither Sharon nor the rump remnant of Likud are likely to win much support from the growing number of Israelis, including larger and larger numbers of recent immigrants, who have been thrown into poverty by the austerity program Bibi Netanyahu imposed as Sharon's finance minister(a program that Sharon has not, to my knowledge, renounced in his new "centrist" guise).

So don't assume Sharon is a lock.

(The great wild card is the question of whether, once again, Hamas will attempt to sway the election by launching a new wave of terror attacks during the election campaign, as they have done in the last two campaigns in which Peres was Labor/One Israel's leader. Hamas did this because they felt that the reelection of a
moderately dovish Israeli government, and the successful conclusion of a peace treaty, would reduce their movement to irrelevance. [Since Likud obviously also depended on the maintainence of a state of war and fear to maintain their electoral support, it could well be pondered if the two groups have had some kind of "back channel" arrangement between them]
If this did occur, it would put the more hawkish forces in Israel politics back in the ascendancy.)

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Ken Burch ]


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 27 November 2005 09:41 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Since Likud obviously also depended on the maintainence of a state of war and fear to maintain their electoral support, it could well be pondered if the two groups have had some kind of "back channel" arrangement between them
Yes and it could well be pondered that there were 15 shooters that day on the grassy knoll; oh yes and let's not forget to ponder the fact that Jews and Israelis were warned prior to the 9/11 attack....

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
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posted 27 November 2005 02:07 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
And did it ever occur to you that a lot of Palestinians may have BECOME terrorists because of events like the Sabra and Shatila massacre?

There is no justification for terror EVER.

But let's not forget the about the poison spewed through (radical) mosques, Hammas, Iran, and the expressed desire (by some) to eradicate the state of Israel. With those elements dialogue will never be possible.

I am a firm believer in dialogue as exemplified by the healing work of:

The Parents Circle

And the work of this courageous spiritual leader(s):

Breaking Faith

[ 27 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
jrootham
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 838

posted 27 November 2005 02:28 PM      Profile for jrootham     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, class, repeat after me:

Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.
Explanation is NOT justification.

Good, the remedial thinking class will meet again tomorrow morning at 10:00.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
rabble-rouser
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posted 27 November 2005 06:00 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine, Peech, you're a believer in dialogue. So am I. It goes without saying that neither Sharon in his new party nor what's left of Likud are in favor or dialogue. It also goes without saying that, as Palestinian-hating racists, no one on the Isreali right ever WILL be interested in dialogue.

There's no reason to defend the rightists, peech. They have no redeeming qualities and no positive role to play.

And no, ohara, my point about a possible Likud/Hamas connection of convenience is NOT "blaming the Jews". My step-children are of a Jewish heritage, and I'd like them to be safe if another Hitler showed up.
It does remain likely that the Israeli right wasn't all that outraged over Hamas's election-campaign terror raids, since those raids always bumped the Likud vote up.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
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posted 28 November 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Ken I just don't buy into your scenario. I cannot believe any Israeli politician would welcome IN ANY WAY the slaughter of hundreds of Israelis , dozens of children blown to bits as politically expediant.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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Babbler # 8346

posted 28 November 2005 01:35 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why not? It's the only thing that's led to Likud victories in the last fifteen years or so.

It would be in the tradition of Yitzhak Shamir, as commander of the Irgun, negotiating with Hitler in the 30's.


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 28 November 2005 01:35 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Sorry Ken I just don't buy into your scenario. I cannot believe any Israeli politician would welcome IN ANY WAY the slaughter of hundreds of Israelis , dozens of children blown to bits as politically expediant.

You don't read history, do you? The use and abuse of grief, fear, and xenophobia to garner political power is not a new trick, nor has it been confined to use by Israeli politicians alone. One might argue that Likud's entire mode of operation is the exploitation of fear and insecurity to keep themselves in power - especially in recent years. That was the demagogic message behind Sharon's "get tough in the Territories" platform: i.e. the one that won him the last election.

His more recent move is less the sign of a man finally resigned to peace and cooperation, but a manoeuvre intended to help Sharon stay in power because of the seachange in Labor with the nomination of Peretz. Sharon needs to (at least in appearance if not in the quality of his policies) distance himself from the hard right in Likud in order to continue to curry favour with the large Sephardic working class who used to be Likud's big supporters until the neoliberal economic policies of Bibi significantly undercut their standard of living.

Moreover, with Peres gentle drift to the right over the years, Sharon will likely be able to put much of his hardline B.S. on the agenda without much protest from Peres' "Labor" supporters. It's the old median voter theory.

With the "new, exciting, fresh" product on the left side of the aisle (Peretz) Sharon needs to remarket himself as a "centrist". If he wins this next election, what money would you lay on his continuing settlement expansion apace and continuing to take a hard line on "terror" and the Palestinians?

I'll put my paycheque on it..

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 28 November 2005 07:57 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:
Why not? It's the only thing that's led to Likud victories in the last fifteen years or so.

It would be in the tradition of Yitzhak Shamir, as commander of the Irgun, negotiating with Hitler in the 30's.


I have googled this reference and the only time any mention is made of your claim are from sights such as StormFront, CODHO and David Icke. The first two are Neo-Nazi Holocaust denial websites and Icke is an antisemitic conspiracy theorist.

While we know that some Jewish leaders tried to negotiate with the Nazis to buy and save the lives of Jews you seem to suggest something much more sinister.

And your continued suggestion that Likud leaders support the murders of their countrymen for political purposes is plain wrong. Why create such a hateful suggestion?

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 28 November 2005 09:15 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:

And your continued suggestion that Likud leaders support the murders of their countrymen for political purposes is plain wrong. Why create such a hateful suggestion?

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


Hateful? No one is saying that they go out and say, "Please, Hamas Guy, kill some Jooz....". However, presented with certain events are they likely to spin such events to win support and to keep themselves in power? Politicians are politicians - shall we "hate" them for it? Perhaps, but your thinly veiled attempt to turn this into some insinuation of antisemitism is laughable.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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posted 28 November 2005 10:01 AM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:

And your continued suggestion that Likud leaders support the murders of their countrymen for political purposes is plain wrong. Why create such a hateful suggestion?

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


Because the entire Revisionist movement, from which Likud springs, has been a movement that is obsessed with violent martyrdom and violent retribution.

It was also a movement that tried to incite a civil war against Ben Gurion and the Labor Zionists in the late 1940's, with the objective of preventing the establishment of a democratic government in Israel and instead setting up a right-wing dictatorship.

You can't expect peace justice, or hope to be created by a movement whose founding anthem includes the words "in blood and fire Judea was born"!


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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Babbler # 7554

posted 28 November 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Like the American National anthem?

and please stop reaching back 60 years and try to apply it today. Also oHara's comments were fair especially in light of Ken's continued position

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ken Burch
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Babbler # 8346

posted 28 November 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for Ken Burch     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Like the American National anthem?

[ 28 November 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


Actually, yes, given what my beloved homeland keeps getting up to in its dealings with the rest of the world


From: A seedy truckstop on the Information Superhighway | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
wpndp
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 11161

posted 28 November 2005 05:15 PM      Profile for wpndp   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus:
Ok, I'll refrain from feeding the nazi troll.

[ 23 November 2005: Message edited by: Thrasymachus ]


quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
He's gone.

quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Whew, the air's a little cleaner, now.
Thanks. Michelle.

[ 24 November 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


So what was the great offense? A different idea? People can't march to a different drummer, have a different POV? How can you win an election if you can't debate that clown (granted, his name's a bit offensive).


From: White Plains, New York | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 28 November 2005 05:22 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
and please stop reaching back 60 years and try to apply it today.

Yeah, no kidding. What do you think memory holes are for?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 28 November 2005 05:25 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
wpndp, otherwise known as about 14 other aliases on babble including Algonquin Park Visitor, has left the building.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 28 November 2005 11:30 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Burch:

(The great wild card is the question of whether, once again, Hamas will attempt to sway the election by launching a new wave of terror attacks during the election campaign, as they have done in the last two campaigns in which Peres was Labor/One Israel's leader. Hamas did this because they felt that the reelection of a
moderately dovish Israeli government, and the successful conclusion of a peace treaty, would reduce their movement to irrelevance. [Since Likud obviously also depended on the maintainence of a state of war and fear to maintain their electoral support, it could well be pondered if the two groups have had some kind of "back channel" arrangement between them]
If this did occur, it would put the more hawkish forces in Israel politics back in the ascendancy.)


That reads too much like evil for the sake of evil. I don't believe in that. Hamas seeks to disrupt a negotiated peace because it has not folded on the original Palestinian claim that Palestinians have rights over the entirety of the former Palestine mandate, not just part of it. They feel that accepting partition is acceptance of the usurpation of Palestinian land by foreigners, hence a negotiated peace with partition is appeasment.

Edited to add: There is also actually a very strong and official relationship between Sheik Ahmed Yassin's Hamas and the Israeli government that goes back to the 70's, when the Israeli government allowed the Muslim Brotherhood, under the tutelage of Ahmed Yassin, to begin humanitarian relief operations on the Gaza Strip. It should be noted that they did this knowing that the parent organization the MB is considered to be behind the assassination of Anwar Sadat.

It seems apparent, that trying to introduce the Muslim activist element into Palestinian society was deemed to be a good way of countering the political force of the secular Palestinian organizations, such as the PLO, and also served to create a politcal schism between the Gaza and the West Bank -- this idea becomes actionable because the PLO's leadership and its basis of support were largely within the West Bank, not Gaza.

[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10896

posted 29 November 2005 12:21 AM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Ken Burch, can you expect peace justice and democracy from amovement that chants "In Blood and Fire we will redeem you OH Palestine?"The Revisionaist movement never attempted to thwart the development of democratic govt in Israel, that is a total falsehood.The clash over the Altalena had nothing to do with issues of governance, it was a disagreement over what percentage of arms should go to the Irgun forces in jerusalem and what should go to the newly formed IDF into which 90% of the Irgun forces has already been absorbed.Begin didnttake the matter further and accepted the rule of the democratic govt.Your description of the Revisionists as believing in the redemptive power of violemce is better suited to the the Lechi The Fighters for the Freedom of Israel(and is shared by the way by Franz Fanon) which brought together people like Shamir and the founder of the Israeli Communist party under one roof for a while.The ideology of both Lechi and Revisionism goes much further than your lurid sterotypes , Jabotinsky proposed as early as 1931 in a work called 'A round table with the Arabs both individual civil rights and recognition as a national minority with communal rights to be expressed via election to the common Parliment and via and Arab Parliment to administer things like education for Arabs in Arabic.The Lechi did not attack Arabs untill the fighting started in 47 untill then they activly tried to create a common Jewsih arab anti British imperialist front and they saw themselves as one of the anti imperialist liberations movements.Avraham Stern the founder did try to negotiate with the ITalians in 39-40 so blind was his hatred of the British but after his death in 41 all such notions were dropped.The Revisionist movement and Lechi accepted in full the democratic order and stood for election like all other parties in 1949.You really should brush up on your history of Pre State Israel and the ideologies of the Jewsih underground armies.It is a very interesting story indeed and would no doubt hold many suprises for you.Regards
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10896

posted 29 November 2005 12:27 AM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Ken Burch PS, Shamir was never the commander of the Irgun he was senior member of Lechi.Begin commanded the Irgun after its first commander David Raziel was killed in 1941 aiding the British overthrow the pro Nazi coupin Iraq.
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 29 November 2005 12:40 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Paragraph breaks help with comprehension.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 29 November 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually stern tried to negotiate the defacto surrender of the entire Levant to the Germans through the German Embassy in Turkey, not with the Italians, promising to establish a Jewish totalitarian state.

Such a move highlights how deeply Zionist ideas were in infected with the racialist (eugenisist)and nationalist ideas prevelant world-wide from Washington to Berlin. Victor Klemperer made the point regarding his refusal to join the Zionist enterprise in Palestine, by asking: "Why exchange narrow nationalism in Germany, for narrow nationalism in Palestine?" He survived the war in Dresden.

This move underscores Stern's hubris but also an acute appreciation of the strategic realities of the war, in that if Stern had been able to deliver on his promise, he would very likely sunk the British war effort.

Fortunately, Stern's arrogance and stupidity were matched by those of the NSDAP, and his efforts overtures were ignored.


Cover letter of offer made by Ster4n Gang to Nazi Germany.

Translation:

German Embassy Ankara Confidential Istanbul, the 11 January 41
Naval Attaché
(Office Istanbul) ----------------------------------
Nr. 1629 conf. |German Embassy in Turkey |
|Arr.: 1"4". JAN. 1941 | "Signature unreadable"
| Attachments. ______________ |
|J.-Nr. "xxxx" 15/41 |
----------------------------------
To the Right Honourable Ambassador!
as attachment I send you:
1.) a letter, which the chief of general security in Syria Colombani sent to General Dertz. Roser communicates, that because of this letter apparently a further meeting between Colombani and Dertz took place.
C. holds the opinion, that his call-back has been caused by the co-operation of F. [Goirtz?] (H.C.) and the minister "xxxx".
2.) an order related to demobilisation, which has been sent by the French military in Syria to its units.
3.) a proposal of the National Military Organisation in Palestine regarding the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.
With regards
I am your loyal and devoted

I suppose we will now be be exposed to one more lecture about the Mufti of Jerusalem.

Fact: Many people saw Germany as a potential ally in there disputes with the British Empire and or France. There is nothing special about it. This was as true of Arabs in Egypt as it was of Hindus in India, and the Vietnamese.

However, Stern's offer is particularly grotesque and self-serving, given the situation and eblematic of a deeper problem within Zionism. I can imagine Stern and Eiechman chatting over tea -- he claimed an affinity for Zionism, did he not?

[ 29 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 29 November 2005 01:22 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ultimately it was just a logistics and transportation and housing problem, isn't that right?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 November 2005 07:07 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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