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Author Topic: Two State Solution
The Danite
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posted 06 November 2005 08:21 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
There has been alot of talk about how at this late date a Two State solution has become impossible.Not only do I believe this to be incorrect on the facts, but an attempt to create a bi national state "by the back door" as it were.The whole idea of Israel keeping 5% or so of the West bank is predicated on fact that some 70% of Jews living in the West Bank live on some 5% of land.If Israel were willing to withdraw therefore form 95% of the West Bank as has benn dicussed at Camp David and Taba and Geneva there is no real impediment to a viable Palestinian state. of course the question then becomes one of the political will to do so.As for a Binational state well this is a recipe for disaster, please anyone find me an example of a binational or even Federal State in the Arab world. Furthermore no doubt calls for a binational state sre mingled with the Right of Return another lethal element in the Binational brew. Millions of hostile Palestinians returning to Israel would set off gunfights and riots across the country with hours. Not a very good idea at all. Rather the Two State solution continues to be the only realistic and plausible solution to the problem. The Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 November 2005 08:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
An interesting view on the topic. This Israeli scholar would disagree, and believes that the two-state solution can no longer be an option.

Listen here - it will open your media player directly.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 06 November 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Millions of hostile Palestinians returning to Israel would set off gunfights and riots across the country with hours. Not a very good idea at all.

Or millions of relieved Palestinians would return home and set about peacefully rebuilding their shattered lives and, togther with their Jewish neighbours, make Israel/Palestine a light among nations.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Suaros
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posted 06 November 2005 11:13 PM      Profile for Suaros     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Or millions of relieved Palestinians would return home and set about peacefully rebuilding their shattered lives and, togther with their Jewish neighbours, make Israel/Palestine a light among nations.


Until a terrorist group tries to stir up some trouble by suicide bombing... Abbas really needs to clampdown on the militants, Israel gave them a very good chance to do so after the pullouts but they didn't. Abbas is really stuck though -- by clamping down on militants, he could provoke public outcry, and by supporting them he would not be helping to reach a peaceful settlement.


From: Toronto | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 November 2005 12:14 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or millions of relieved Palestinians would return home and set about peacefully rebuilding their shattered lives and, togther with their Jewish neighbours, make Israel/Palestine a light among nations.

Come on Al, things won't be that perfect. Palestininans and Isrealis have been living apart for fifty seven years. There will be animosity and economic upheavel but I do agree that all these cries of "they will drive us into the sea!" are so much rubbish. The crises that will occur after unifacation will be much more managable and involve less bloodshed. Although I'm surprised how many supposedly intelligent people buy into the propiganda.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
retread
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posted 07 November 2005 02:21 AM      Profile for retread     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sometimes people want to live under different rules, and multiple states are a solution ... which is why for instance many aboriginals want self-government. There's nothing inherently wrong with a two state solution in Palestine/Israel - they've different religions and values, and there might not be a good way to compromise. For example, its quite possible that the Palestinians will opt for Sharia law, not something that many Israelie women are likely to want to compromise on - how would a single state handle that?

The problem is mainly one of how the land and resources would be split. The current proposals don't give the Palestinians anything to work with.


From: flatlands | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 07 November 2005 10:34 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
An interesting view on the topic. This Israeli scholar would disagree, and believes that the two-state solution can no longer be an option.

Listen here - it will open your media player directly.


Jeff halper's views on this matter are from all I know very much in the minority both amongst jews and others. I would be far more inclined to listen to yossi Beillin or even Amos oz on this issue.

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2005 10:59 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have no idea what people like to assert that somethings popularity has any relevance to the quality of its arguement. Is that what you are suggesting JPJ?

Do I need to make examples of ideas that are "popular" that have very negative consequences?

At one time, Zionism, itself was a very unpopular even among Jews. It is now more popular, but that has not made it any better, as far as I am concerned.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 November 2005 11:05 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Jeff halper's views on this matter are from all I know very much in the minority both amongst jews and others. I would be far more inclined to listen to yossi Beillin or even Amos oz on this issue.

Did you listen to it?


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 07 November 2005 11:27 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
it takes 20 minutes to download. I have read and heard him before. i assume he has not changed his tune.
From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 November 2005 11:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh really? It should just start playing in your media player while it's downloading.

You can also use the pupu player to listen to it if you go to the site and click on the green button.

I just thought you might like to hear what you're commenting about, that's all.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 07 November 2005 11:35 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"pupu"?!? Michelle?!? Language?!?

I'm listening right now. It came on right away.


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johnpauljones
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posted 07 November 2005 12:06 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
sorry it didnt for me, i will listen later
From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 07 November 2005 12:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is the traditional mode of Israel's negotiating relationship to Palestians.

They ask: "When is later? Soon? Tomorrow? Next year? After another 38 years? When?"

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 07 November 2005 12:29 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, knock it off.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 07 November 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Sometimes people want to live under different rules, and multiple states are a solution ... which is why for instance many aboriginals want self-government.

I never thought of it that way. Interesting.

Oh, and I don't think The Palestinians would go for Sharia law. They are secular.

[ 07 November 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 08 November 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Hello Folks, somebody please answer me this. How would it work, a lesbian Labor member of a Binational Parliment asks the islamic front MP as to why he made comment supporting the machine gunning of the Gay Rights parade in Ramallah. I am not being sensationalist here, but rather the differences in political and social culture are so severe it would make a Binational disfucntional.I also repeat that the claims of a two state solution being now impossible are simply false based on the evidence. it is a matter of political will.In fact many of these claims are in my opinion the wish -fantasy of those making the claims.The past should be left alone, each master of his own house is the only way to have even a chance of things working out.The Right of Return and a Binational state is a recipe for a Balkans type war all over again.Benn there done that! Lets move on. Regards to all The Danite
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Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So tha actions of some Palestinians reflects the entirety of the political culture?

Would you agree then that the actions of a group of Orthodox Jews throwing feces at gay people during a pride event in Tel Aviv, is indicative of the entire culture of the Israeli people?

If one, why not the other, and if that is the case, it sounds rather like the too cultures have a lot in common, according to your methodology of sociology.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 08 November 2005 01:19 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Would you agree then that the actions of a group of Orthodox Jews throwing feces at gay people during a pride event in Tel Aviv, is indicative of the entire culture of the Israeli people?

We all seem to have our cranks and nutjobs, even here in Canada. However, we also have official recognition of the rights of gays and lesbians to counter the cranks.

Israel officially supports Pride Day, a few zealots notwithstanding. Can Palestine say the same?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 01:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Uhhm, you know I think that the PA is trying to get the water running, in between bouts of hiding when the IDF decides to re-occupy this or that.

I don't think they spend much of their bomb shelter time, going over the finer points of modern social theory by flashlight, so as to come up with a text that would satisfy your discerning sensitivities.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 08 November 2005 01:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So you're saying they have no social policies whatsoever, and in effect no moral compass, because they're living hand-to-mouth?

I think that's a giant cop-out. And I think you even know that's a giant cop out.

Anyway, it would appear that the Palestinian Authority has managed to make quite a thorough Website (by flashlight, while sitting in a puddle of dirty water, in a bunker, eating a rat's tail cooked over a burning tire, no doubt).

How do you explain this website? If what you are suggesting is true, how could they possibly have managed to build a website full of statements and policies??


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 04:32 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know 15 year olds with more sophisticated web sites than that magoo. And so do you. IT is not about infrasturcture in location, it is about financing, subcontracting, and also web servers located anywhere in the world. Welcome to the World Wide Web. For a government organization that site sucks.

The primary factor in creating a good web site, is a reasonable amount of money, and this site did not cost a lot and technical ability, not water mains, pumps, purifiers, etc. etc. The logistics are completely differnt.

This is a problem of a completely different magnitude:

quote:
For decades Israel has pursued a policy of forced eviction(1) and demolition of homes of Palestinians living under occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and the homes of Israeli Arabs in Israel. In the past three and a half years the scale of the destruction carried out by the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories has reached an unprecedented level. The victims are often amongst the poorest and most disadvantaged in both Israeli and Palestinian society. Most of the houses demolished by the Israeli army in the Occupied Territories were the homes of refugee families, who were expelled by Israeli forces or who fled in the war that followed the creation of Israel in 1948.

More than 3,000 homes, hundreds of public buildings and private commercial properties, and vast areas of agricultural land have been destroyed by the Israeli army and security forces in Israel and the Occupied Territories in the past three and a half years. Tens of thousands of men, women and children have been forcibly evicted from their homes and made homeless or have lost their source of livelihood. Thousands of other houses and properties have been damaged, many beyond repair. In addition, tens of thousands of other homes are under threat of demolition, their occupants living in fear of forced eviction and homelessness.


An NGO with a much superior web site to the PNA's -- think about it

I am sure gay Palestinians are proud of your efforts to make sure that they are treated as equals among the destitute and impovershed Palestinians. When they are shivering in the cold, I am sure it warms them to know that you are there, somewhere, making sure that people have there priorities straight, and aren't distracted by petty issues such as clean water, jobs, housing, abuse of civil rights, mass arrests and detention without trial.

It'll all be all right, as long as gay men can hold hands in public while trying to hear Mamoud Abbas make speeches about SSM, above the sounds of thier stomachs growling.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 08 November 2005 04:55 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I know 15 year olds with more sophisticated web sites than that magoo. And so do you.

I couldn't care less if it were in plain text. It's not about the quality of their web authoring, it's about the fact that they can, in fact, formulate policy, while at the same time dodging rockets and looking for potable water.

I'm simply responding to your seeming assertion that human rights policies, as a frilly formality, had to take a backseat to simple survival. I'm simply demonstrating (quality of the web graphics notwithstanding) that they can indeed formulate policy when they want to.

quote:
When they are shivering in the cold, I am sure it warms them to know that you are there, somewhere, making sure that people have there priorities straight, and aren't distracted by petty issues such as clean water, jobs, housing, abuse of civil rights, mass arrests and detention without trial.

The rights of all are in no way in opposition to the challenges of day-to-day life.

You act as though there's a hard choice to be made — do we respect everyone, or do we eat? — and of course any sane person would say "you must eat".

But it costs exactly $0 to respect the rights of others, and it takes exactly 0 seconds of your busy day to do so. In fact, I could argue that a blanket policy of tolerance for the rights of others could actually free up time in one's busy day.

God it's boring to see basic and simple tolerance treated like a very expensive, impossibly complicated, large, unwieldy, inconvenient object. It's not.

Now back to the question asked, that originally got me involved: how would it look to have a Lesbian parliamentarian asking a question of an Islamic Palestinian parlimentarian? Could that ever really work? Or would it be a case of "when worlds collide?". I think it's a fair question.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You act as if SSM came to Canada because someone suggested it and everyone looked at each other and said, "yeah that's a good idea! Why didn't we think of it before?"

You are talking like it didn't take the effort of thousands and thousands of people working very hard to make a minority positions a majority one, and they were able to focus on the issue is because Canada is not a society in extreme political crisis that has been living under marshall law for 38 years.

Are you trying to tell me that if 50% of Canadians were unemployed, and living of subsidies from international aid organizations, and living under military occupation, you would want your politicians working in the back rooms, politicking with each other, to get the exact wording that is acceptable to all and sundry so as to pass a motion to properly enshrine the rights of all people regardless of sexuality, before there is even a state?

I suppose on coffee-break Abbas could put a phone call into Gaza, just to remind Hamas that there is a cease-fire on even though the Hamas people might find it a little hard to tell given that the IDF is still shooting everything up.

Naaaaw! It'd be easy. Bringing SSM to Canada was a piece of cake. Even the fucking NDP couldn't get all of there Caucus in-line, and all they do is talk policy all day.

Are you for real?

The reality is that the PA can not secure the human rights of any Palestinians, regardless of sexual orientation. They have no rights as a group, in toto.

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 08 November 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Cue Ball Hello, My example was simply by way of illustration that the political cultures of the two peoples are simply so divergent it would be like trying to blend Spain and Tunisia.Think about it for one minute.A Binational state would a recipe for trouble big time.Maybe you should visit Israel and palestine or another arab country and see the day to day life of the people, it would be clear that two states is best. Religious Muslims believe Palestine is sacred Wafq (Islamic trust) property religious Jews believe all the land of israel is the sacred inheritance of the jewish People trying to put these two in the same state trying to negotiate common public policy will simply not work. Be logical about it cueball. Regards Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 08 November 2005 08:59 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Cueball I don't think Magoo was speaking about SSM rather he was talking about tolerance and acceptance.

You are quite right and in fact SSM is still unlawful in Israel but Gay pride and acceptance of gay people by the mainstream is certainly there.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 09:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And my point is that Mr. Danite likes to engage in thought experiments about Palestinian "Islamic Front" MP's supporting "machine gunning" of Gay people. This is ribald chicannery that has a really deaply racist appearance. And I would like it explained.

Fine for you and Magoo, and myself to discuss the finer points of human rights in regards to sexuality, Israel and the Palestinian Rights organizations, and even Muslim cultural norms. But what I see going here seems to be based on some extremely odd stereotyping of Arabs and Muslim as violently intollerant by nature.

It appears to me (and I would like to be wrong here) that is being said here is that Arabs and Muslims are intrinsicly violent, and intollerant.

I don't actually understand how it is that you and Magoo are backing these statements up without at first getting a little more information about, where Mr. Danite is coming from.

I think that might be prudent.

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 08 November 2005 09:59 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you trying to tell me that if 50% of Canadians were unemployed, and living of subsidies from international aid organizations, and living under military occupation, you would want your politicians working in the back rooms, politicking with each other, to get the exact wording that is acceptable to all and sundry so as to pass a motion to properly enshrine the rights of all people regardless of sexuality, before there is even a state?

If I was gay then yes. What would my alternative be? Watch and hope for my countryment to be freed from this 38 years of oppression so that they can pass it on to me and my friends?

Anyway, this isn't about whether they should, shouldn't, can or can't. The question (and I still think it has merit) is: can the two political systems merge to become one? If one of the two sides doesn't see women the same way, and doesn't see homosexuality the same way, what implications might that have in Parliament?

I'm not operating on any assumption that a Palestinian representative "would" behave in any particular way, but it's certainly an interesting question, no?

A bit like asking what it would have been like, in the United States in, say, 1810, if a black woman were elected to Congress. You can see that there could be implications.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 November 2005 10:08 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Now back to the question asked, that originally got me involved: how would it look to have a Lesbian parliamentarian asking a question of an Islamic Palestinian parlimentarian?

Are the two mutually exclusive?

quote:
Religious Muslims believe Palestine is sacred Wafq (Islamic trust) property religious Jews believe all the land of israel is the sacred inheritance of the jewish People trying to put these two in the same state trying to negotiate common public policy will simply not work. Be logical about it cueball.

Geez, and then there are all the Christian Arab and secular Palestinians, as well as secular Jews, to consider. Gosh, what a doozy of a problem! I suppose a secular democracy would be out of the question when the citizenry has different religions, wouldn't it?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 10:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

If I was gay then yes. What would my alternative be? Watch and hope for my countryment to be freed from this 38 years of oppression so that they can pass it on to me and my friends?

Anyway, this isn't about whether they should, shouldn't, can or can't. The question (and I still think it has merit) is: can the two political systems merge to become one? If one of the two sides doesn't see women the same way, and doesn't see homosexuality the same way, what implications might that have in Parliament?

I'm not operating on any assumption that a Palestinian representative "would" behave in any particular way, but it's certainly an interesting question, no?

A bit like asking what it would have been like, in the United States in, say, 1810, if a black woman were elected to Congress. You can see that there could be implications.


Ahh I see, so you are all for enfranchising the rights of Gay Palestinians. Just no other Palestinians.

On the one hand you will argue, that "it's boring to see basic and simple tolerance treated like a very expensive, impossibly complicated, large, unwieldy, inconvenient object. It's not." And that "it costs exactly $0 to respect the rights of others, and it takes exactly 0 seconds of your busy day to do so," and then on the other, note cautiously, that, "in 1810, if a black woman were elected to Congress. You can see that there could be implications."

What happened to simple respect for human rights?

Didn't they realize back in 1810, in the US that "basic and simple tolerance" for Black women cost "exactly $0" and "took exactly 0 seconds of your busy day?"

Ahh, but it is completely incomprehensible that Palestinians can not (as is presumed here to be generally true) exhibit "basic and simple tolerance" toward gay people, but completely understandable that exhibiting "basic and simple tolerance" by integrating Gay Palestinians, along with all the other Palestinians, into a bi-national state with the same rights as everyone else, would have "implications," and potentially be "impossibly complicated, large, unwieldy," and "inconvenient."

So, are we on the same page here?

[ 08 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 November 2005 10:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way Magoo you're a fine, evocative and clear writer and it is a pleasure to be able to turn such lush quotes back on there original premise, and it would not be such a pleasure were your syntax less sound, or less styley.

I am serious.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 09 November 2005 01:02 AM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
For those of you in deep denial about the results of vastly different political and social cultures(especially ones which have been in struggle for over a century) trying to manage their affairs in the same state that is your right.You can wonder "where I am coming from" like their is a deep dark and compromising secret about me, or you can claim I am a racist, it says more about you than me. Please indicate one Arab country where democracy(Lebanon is a partial recent example but look at their civil war) by any standard is the norm. One Arab country where there gay rights parades. One arab country where the Communist Party is legal and sits in Parliment.You simply refuse to see or perhaps suffer from ignorance as to the differences in cultures. I am not saying one is better than the other, but one Israels is very western, Tel Aviv is like any south Med city,and the Palestinians are in the main Muslims Arabs with their view on things.You can try to avoid the issue by any means you might choose but you obviously really are not in touch with what the reality on ground means in regards to these issues.All the names and aspersions and suggestions of "suspicion" about wont change that. What do you know about Israelli and palestinian life really? Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 05:12 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There have been at various times, various structures of Arab govenrments over the last 100 years. Some parliments have be explicitly radical socialist, such as Nasser's regieme.

Pointing fingers a specific aspects of Arab culture, as they exist today as if they are some kind of political/cultural statis that originates solely from the Arab Muslim existential experience, and not the result of the massive influence that the United States, France, Great Britain and the Soviet Union had on the region when they started carving up the rump Arab hind quarter of the Ottoman Empire is simply to play poker but with everything wild, so your two of clubs is now looking like an ace of spades to you.

Beriut a classic case here. You think that the recent invasion of Iraq is somehow the first time Europeans have tried to impose their particular vision of how Arabs should govern themsselves. Lebanon was a French protectorate. It was the British who installed the House of Saud, and let them name a country after themselves, it was the British who tried to put Crown Prince Faisal first in Damascus, and then later had him moved to Baghdad because their commitments to the their French allies prevented it. It was the British who gave Ben Gurions expedition the go ahead. And of course Hussein of Jordan was another of the Hashemite autocrats installed by the British.

Please don't pretend that this is all about the Musllim and the Arab mind.

In fact the only regional Muslim state to actually institute some kind of modern democratic state, without an ogoing civil war is Turkey. And that is precisely because it had the power to kick the WW1 European allies out, and that has everything to do with how they established lasting power structures that grew and evolved from local sources, and become stable, and eventually, at least, vaguely democratic, as opposed to the states like Iraq and Lebanon, which are getting knocked over every 20 years, so that people have to start all over again.

It has very little to do with the Arab-Muslim "Zeitgeist," and a lot to do with super-power power struggles, in which Israel has played no small part.

And what of these socially inept Palestinians, who just can't grasp the idea of democratic society, like Israel.

But wait, you mentioned communists sitting in assembley? Aren't there in fact members of the PFLP sitting in the PA assembly. It is a communist organization. Weren't they in fact elected in democratic process supported and appproved of by Israel, and other democratic states. If it is the case that democracy, is somehow "culturally" beyond the Arab mind, why all the hoopla about the election of Mahmoud Abbas?

Isn't that an example of Arab's behaving in ways compatible with Israel "democracy."

Have you any evidence that the Palestine National Council has ever floored a motion in its session, wherein they discussed "machine gunning" gay people for having a parade, or even when the subject came up?

I mean... where do you get these ideas from? Suggesting that such would be "possible" or even "likely," is a very slanderous insinuation to make unless you can support it with anything other than your personal prejudices.

The PNC is over 20 years old, so, I mean there should have beem some rabidly homophobic statment made by someone, at some time in that chamber, if this kind of thing is a common theme in the Palestinian political mindset.

Or in Lebanon, what about Hexbollah? It is the closest thing in the region to your elected member of parliment who is a member of your fantasy "Islamic Front." Has anyone from the "Party of God" in Lebanon, gone on record in Parliment there, suggesting that gay people should be gunned down in the streets?

There must be something you can dig up somwhere to add credibility to your wild thought experiments. Credibility is what you need right now, otherwise, I am afraid what you are saying comes across as panic-mongering, if not plain bigotry.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
guilty-pleasure
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posted 09 November 2005 10:37 AM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Didn't they realize back in 1810, in the US that "basic and simple tolerance" for Black women cost "exactly $0" and "took exactly 0 seconds of your busy day?"

Evidently not.

quote:
So, are we on the same page here?

I really don't know.

I'm just noting that if you merge the two states, you're merging a state with a fairly westernized attitude toward women and homosexuality with a state that, frankly, does not have a fairly westernized attitude toward women and homosexuality. Unless I'm all wrong, and they do.

Our tangent about whether they could or could not have a more (shall we say) enlightened view of women's equality and gay rights is interesting but immaterial: the states are what they are, and so I think it's still valid to at least wonder how well a merging of the two, as they exist right now, would work.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 November 2005 10:55 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I'm just noting that if you merge the two states...

What two states? Remember that "Occupation" thingy that people here talk about? There's only one state now.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 November 2005 10:58 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I didn't notice in the dense opening post of this thread, but The Danite actually HAS engaged in a stereotype of Palestinians in his original thought experiment, by assuming that a binational state would mean "Millions of hostile Palestinians returning to Israel would set off gunfights and riots across the country with hours." These kind of generalizations about Palestinians are not acceptable in this forum. You're new here, The Danite, so I'm just letting you know.

Also, a reminder that calling other posters racist is not allowed in this forum, even if you believe they are, otherwise it will be difficult to enforce that rule when the anti-semite label is brought out.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 09 November 2005 11:59 AM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Okay Michelle you tell me what would the result of millions of hostile Palestinians returningto a country they hate and telling people they inhabiting there former homes to "get out its my house".Everything will be just great!!You and cue ball engage in the typical diversion tactics when unpleasant facts are brought up.And please dont threaten the Green horn with censorship that is very intolerant and anti democratic. Since I am new here as you claim how do you know enough of my views to stick a label on me MS thought Police. if you and cue ball refuse to see the deeply reactionary and intolerant elements towards others in Arabic culture,the disdain with which they hold the politcal rights of minorities and their fate in the Arab world that is your problem. it has nothing to with Europeans in the ME,it is internaly driven and Lebanon is the perfect example of what I talking about. I an see the PC Martyrs Brigades lead by Commandant Michelle are out in full force here.You dont scare me !!! The Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 November 2005 12:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, see, the "millions of hostile Palestinians" stereotype is what I asked you not to do. Consider this a first warning.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 12:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Danite:
Okay Michelle you tell me what would the result of millions of hostile Palestinians returningto a country they hate and telling people they inhabiting there former homes to "get out its my house".Everything will be just great!!You and cue ball engage in the typical diversion tactics when unpleasant facts are brought up.And please dont threaten the Green horn with censorship that is very intolerant and anti democratic. Since I am new here as you claim how do you know enough of my views to stick a label on me MS thought Police. if you and cue ball refuse to see the deeply reactionary and intolerant elements towards others in Arabic culture,the disdain with which they hold the politcal rights of minorities and their fate in the Arab world that is your problem. it has nothing to with Europeans in the ME,it is internaly driven and Lebanon is the perfect example of what I talking about. I an see the PC Martyrs Brigades lead by Commandant Michelle are out in full force here.You dont scare me !!! The Danite

And someone here, earlier was talking about how personal aspersions were unecessary! amazing how fast some people can change thier socks, no? But what amazes me is that you did it without changing your shoes.

Please don't leave the dirty ones on the floor:

You have asserted that Arab and Muslim politcal and cultural norms are entirely defined internally. I have asserted the opposite thesis. I have supported my thesis with well known, and verifiable events from the historical record. You have not.

Did Columbus stop over in Cairo in 1492, as the first leg of his discover the world tour? Apparently, Palestine was not only "a land without a people," and the Zionists "a people without a land," but it was also invisible up until 1948.

BTW you probably shouldn't take Michelle comment about "calling other people racists" personally, since I thought that was directed at my deconstruction of what you wrote as having sweeping stereotypical negative archtypes directed at an discreet cultural, religious or racial group.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 09 November 2005 12:29 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Cue Ball, at least you do me the courtesy to respond to my points and avoid the bully tactics of others.By any definition Nassers regime was hyper nationalist and dicatorship, he did make reforms its true but so called "socialism" in the Arab world is only skin deep and rather serves a legitimising purpose for undemocratic regimes as it often has throughout the third world. I would also not that every state in the ME is a product of European imeprialist map making, which the so called progressive regimes seem very intent on guarding every each of the imperialist transfered booty.Arab nationalims has always gone for the Unitarian state and opposed federalism and any recognition of the righst of national minorities. Syria ruled by what you would consider a progressive style Arab regime has banned the Kurdish language. Also The PFLP is not a Communist Party. The Communist Party and its members where hunted down like wild animals while the mighty human rights fighters and fellow Communists in Europe ignored it totaly for decades as they were too busy screaming "Death to Israel" and other progressive cult like chanting. One of the reasons the Communist parties were banned because they followed the official line of the Soviet Union which recognised Partition and the Stateof israel within the 49 armistice lines.It alos true that only real democratic people in the ME are the palestinians I did not mention them as they are not yet a fully formed state, yes they aremuch more democratic than other arab states thats for sure.And as for gay rights parades,do you think anyone would try to do one Lebanon or in the south of Lebanon where the progressive Hizbollah forces hold sway?The whole point of my comments was to make the case that due to natural differences in political culture and general historic asperations that a two state solution is the only realistic and workable one. I am sorry if it is forbiden to criticise the Arab world , or to repeat the words of Arab Liberals and Democrates who desrve medals for the courage they have in applying noble principles across the board. I know that any mention of vicious nature of Arab politics will bring dwon the wrath of phony progressives but I dont care I call em like I see them. Regards Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 November 2005 12:34 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is not against the rules to criticize countries in the Arab world. It IS against the rules to stereotype Palestinians as "hostile" and gun-toting. If you can't debate civilly then you won't be debating here at all.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 12:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The PFLP, as founded by George Habash, has been the most vocal advocate of radical left socialist/communist political discourse within the PNA and the PLO. It is a fact.

If you wish to define "communists" only along the very narrow lines of ideologies which had a direct politcal link to the USSR, and or the long defunct Comintern, I can live with that. But for my part I reject that definition as the exact ideological mode through which the Soviet Union managed orthodoxy within the international socialist movement, and I see no reason to accept the Leninist/Stalanist model in any of its parts.

Certainly their definition should be examined circumspectly.

And this is of course, partly why, the Arab socialist nationalist leaders adopted forms which excluded the mainstream Bolshevik view, as did many left views internationally. The USSR was forced early to make terms with less than satisfactory alliance partners like Nasser in the Middle East, and went through some pretty extreme lengths of preverication, to estalish how they could be supported as "progressive" even though not strictly communist.

Nasser rejected becoming explicitly a tool of the Soviet Union. A fact which meant that his heir was able to have the ideological manouver room to seperate himself from the super-power discourse, and sign the Camp David accords, under a US mandate. This positioning put Egypt in a far differnt geo-politcal circumstance in 1970, than, say, Poland.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
outlandist
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posted 09 November 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for outlandist        Edit/Delete Post
To my knowledge,there are presently millions of Palestinians living in Israel.Living and working peacefully.

The two state model appears to be an achievable solution to some because it reinforces the biases toward the Israelis and Palestinians.

Whether the Israelis and Palestinians decide on a single state or separate states for each,the problems of land ownership,disposession and historical grievance will require attention.

Perhaps in future,visionaries on both sides will refuse to continue the Arafat/Sharon hatred in favour of an equitable solution.Isn't four generations of haters enough?


From: ontario | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 09 November 2005 01:23 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle,if I said America is falling under the sway of militant and intolerant fundamentalist christians would say the rules dont allow meto say that or that it is stereotyping?I doubt. I did not say that the Palestinians were guntoting that is your biased knee jerk reaction coming through. Did it occure to you that Israels have pleanty of guns too and that the gunfights would be mutual? And saying that palestinian refugges returning to israel would be hostile to the state and people they falsley claim is the source of all their troubles is simply an accurate probable description of their emotional state dont you think? I would say it would be natural of them to feel that way. I am just speaking the plain meaning of the words Michelle if youwish to read deep dark racist meanings into my words go ahead.But your are wrong. Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 01:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by outlandist:
To my knowledge,there are presently millions of Palestinians living in Israel.Living and working peacefully.

The two state model appears to be an achievable solution to some because it reinforces the biases toward the Israelis and Palestinians.

Whether the Israelis and Palestinians decide on a single state or separate states for each,the problems of land ownership,disposession and historical grievance will require attention.

Perhaps in future,visionaries on both sides will refuse to continue the Arafat/Sharon hatred in favour of an equitable solution.Isn't four generations of haters enough?


I agree, maybe.

My view of the entire analysis of "cycle of violence" in this discourse about hate is that it acts as if exactly designed to remove focus the rational decision making process about land and rights, and remove it into unsolvable dilemas of religion, and irrationality.

Once we even begin to discuss issues of concrete value, such as the refugees, or land entitlement, we immediatly confronted with the image of the "hostile Palestinian" and or, the seemingly benign and "balanced" talk of a "never ending cycle of violence."

The issue between husband and wife is not the "hate," or the cycle of mutual ire, though these become factors, but limitations of freedom that each impose on the other, and as likely as not the positioning of the butter dish in the kitchen.

Hate is not resolvable except through time, but the conditions which created the hate can be, and the butter dish can be put back in the fridge.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 09 November 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If you said that the Palestinian leadership were being swayed by militant, fundamentalist Muslims, or even that the Palestinian leadership ARE militant, fundamentalist Muslims, there would not be a problem. I have often said this about the Iranian government, for instance. The generalizations are the problem. What you did was generalize about Palestinians as hostile people, who would provoke gun fights.

Make your meaning clearer if you don't want to be misunderstood. This forum is a contentious one; think before you hit "add reply".

And by the way, I didn't say you were racist; in fact, I specifically said that you were not to be labelled racist by others.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
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posted 09 November 2005 01:32 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Cue ball Camp david was signed by sadat not nasser. Also please dont engage in sophistry, i said very clearly The Communist Parties,I hate Leninism too thats not my point.Communists by the standard definition of what that meant in the 40-70s where hunted down and exterminated across the Arab world as I said in part because of their support for a two state solution which was in line with soviet policy. And their euro collegues didnt say a word about it.To return to the original subject being honest about human differences is not a setup for some nazi like racialist attack cueball. I have spoken with many Palestinians over many years from intellectuals to workers to farmers who agree totaly that two states is best because "you Jews have your way of life and we Arabs have ours" as neighbors we can get along fine and thats great as it should be, but each has his own ways, Vive la Differance.Individuals have differences so do peoples, let it be.If one likes to open his eggs from the small end and the other from the big end and will kill over it, so drop it I say and let them open their eggs the way they want. thats all I am saying. Regards Danite
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 09 November 2005 01:36 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Michelle I repeat I didnt say the palesitinians would cause the gunfights alone I said the result of the return of millions of refugess claiming their ancestral property would. Come on Michelle not evry one is a crazed anti arab racist.Okay?
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 09 November 2005 01:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I said:

quote:
A fact which meant that his heir was able to have the ideological manouver room to seperate himself from the super-power discourse, and sign the Camp David accords, under a US mandate.

His heir being, obviously, Anwar Sadat, Nasser's long time buddy from boot camp. You will see that I am quite good on the "agreed upon" facts, however, I get the feeling you will continue to disagree on how I interpret them.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 09 November 2005 01:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Danite:
Cue ball Camp david was signed by sadat not nasser. Also please dont engage in sophistry, i said very clearly The Communist Parties,I hate Leninism too thats not my point.Communists by the standard definition of what that meant in the 40-70s where hunted down and exterminated across the Arab world as I said in part because of their support for a two state solution which was in line with soviet policy. And their euro collegues didnt say a word about it.To return to the original subject being honest about human differences is not a setup for some nazi like racialist attack cueball. I have spoken with many Palestinians over many years from intellectuals to workers to farmers who agree totaly that two states is best because "you Jews have your way of life and we Arabs have ours" as neighbors we can get along fine and thats great as it should be, but each has his own ways, Vive la Differance.Individuals have differences so do peoples, let it be.If one likes to open his eggs from the small end and the other from the big end and will kill over it, so drop it I say and let them open their eggs the way they want. thats all I am saying. Regards Danite

Evidentiary dialogues about the satisfactory nature of the life of slaves based on conversations between master and slave in the deep south of the USA, are highly suspect, as are commentary from members of the Inkatha Freedom Party in South Africa about their support for Bhantustans, as are the recorded opinions of Native Canadian about the advantages of Christianity and English civilization as taken down by Anglican ministers.

I have heard varying opinions from Palestinians, in many circumstances, most of which occurred in situations in which there were few overt potentially prejudicial power relatoinships in play, and those testimonies indicate extreme ambivalnce about the "two state solution," Oslo, Arafat, and the apparent sell-out of the "right of Return" by the PLO.

Though yes, some do agree with the idea, but even those who do, have a hard time imagining anything feasible in the context of Sharons security barrier, and what that means about having a functional political entity even in the West Bank.

I think also, that initially positive view that many Palestinians had of the Oslo solution in the 1990's was predictated on the recongition of the "green line" as the essential defining boundary for the Palestinian state, a boundary that now seems unrealizable due to the Israeli efforts of increased settlement, further subdivision of Palestinan land via the creation of bypass roads, and now the imposition of an physical barrier of import far beyond the borders envsioned when the PLO agreed to recognize Israel, and gave up their original, much more substantive and largely justifiable claim.

It seems counter-intuative to suggest that this debate would even be "current" if it were not the case that there was a substantial body of Palestinian opinion that now runs counter to the Oslo solution.

So they have, in a manner of speaking returned to the original Arab proposal, which was a unified, secular and democratic state contained within the entirety of the Palestine Mandate, in one of those typically outrageous efforts of the disenfranchised to impose the system of values we like to say we are in favour of, upon our augustly "modern" and "civilized" persons.

Nervy I know. But there it is. Cheeky bitches.

I find it odd that a call for a mutli-cultural secular democracy should be invoked as incite to riot.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 November 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And saying that palestinian refugges returning to israel would be hostile to the state and people they falsley claim is the source of all their troubles is simply an accurate probable description of their emotional state dont you think?

I don't think so.

Why would returning refugees be hostile to the state that welcomes them home? I would think they would be grateful to such a state, especially as they and their cousins who remained will be now treated as equal citizens within their homeland.

And as for that tired canard that because Palestinians are Muslim, and therefore so essentially different from Westerners (note the arrogance and condescension in that assertion) that they would be incompatible neighbours with the civilized Israelis; hundreds of thousands of Arab Muslims are already citizens of Israel. Moreover, they are not the Palestinians who are resistant to the Occupation - the stateless residents of refugee camps and towns in the West Bank is the principal source of the Palestinian Resistance.

Furthermore, with the advent of a secular, democratic state, the need for militant Islamic resistance would disappear. The Islamists would lose most of their constituency.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 09 November 2005 06:17 PM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
Cue Ball , Inkahata freedom party? Slaves? Okay cue ball here is where I get off the train I see that any honest dscussion of the issue with you is lost in your techniques of evasion.Your sophistry and nonsensical comparisons are of no intrest at all. By the way the Paestinians I talk to are real Palestinians not the talking heads who spout ideology as a way to run the masses around into dead end streets.Belief in a Democratic palestinian binational state is either totaly dishonest and is a polite way to say destroy Israel or is deluded to a pathological degree. Either way this is my stop. Have a good ride and send me a postcard from Sunny Secular Democratic Palestine where dreams really do come true! Salaam Aleikum.
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 November 2005 08:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see, so you only talk to Palestinians whom agree with you. That was my point. It is always possible to find persons in the repressed society who will express the views that the dominant society wishes to hear. It is called brown nosing. The others of course are to be dismissed as wild eyed radicals. Nothing special there.

I am sorry if you can't handle the truth.

[ 09 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Danite
recent-rabble-rouser
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posted 10 November 2005 01:09 AM      Profile for The Danite        Edit/Delete Post
I am talking about Palestinian carpeters whom I worked with and other Palestinians I worked with when I lived in israel and many others I talk to on various sites.You are imposing a totaly false image on the people I am refering to . it is typical of the arrogance of closed minded ideologes who must fit everything into their model. You have a very simplistic view of things cue ball and are not connected to what the "people" you claim to talk for really think.Most palestinians want a two state solution it is a fact.Anyway I see you are in the world of pure theory and chomsky I am talking about real solutions for real people.I would love you to tell that personally to the Palestinians I am refering to , they would laugh in derision at the thought they are afraid to tell me a regular person what they think.What do you think they are cueball? Slaves in ancient Rome?They are proud people , they have no fear of the Israeli army you think they fear to say what they think????? Laughable indeed. You need to talk to more Arab mechanics and carpenters you know the people you want to save???LOL
From: Quebec | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 10 November 2005 02:50 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Danite:
[QB]it is typical of the arrogance of closed minded ideologes who must fit everything into their model... You have a very simplistic view of things cue ball and are not connected to what the "people" you claim to talk for really think.

Is fine on it's own, but then you add this:

quote:
Anyway I see you are in the world of pure theory and chomsky I am talking about real solutions for real people.

Chomsky is - in reality - all for a two state solution - with the proviso that Israeli settlements beyond the Green Line (or at least most of them) be deserted. Which, of course, brings us back to the question - how can a two-state solution be realised given the reality of the settlements and Israel's desire to continue controlling the border with Jordan?

So Pee....err...Danite, how about we address that issue? You accuse others of diversion and sophistry and yet your only response to this question has nothing to do with the question and everything to do with making a largely unsubstantiated claim that "it just won't work because we're all too different..."


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
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posted 10 November 2005 11:03 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by The Danite:
I am talking about Palestinian carpeters whom I worked with and other Palestinians I worked with when I lived in israel and many others I talk to on various sites.You are imposing a totaly false image on the people I am refering to . it is typical of the arrogance of closed minded ideologes who must fit everything into their model. You have a very simplistic view of things cue ball and are not connected to what the "people" you claim to talk for really think.Most palestinians want a two state solution it is a fact.Anyway I see you are in the world of pure theory and chomsky I am talking about real solutions for real people.I would love you to tell that personally to the Palestinians I am refering to , they would laugh in derision at the thought they are afraid to tell me a regular person what they think.What do you think they are cueball? Slaves in ancient Rome?They are proud people , they have no fear of the Israeli army you think they fear to say what they think????? Laughable indeed. You need to talk to more Arab mechanics and carpenters you know the people you want to save???LOL

I am not interested in saving anyone. A lot of my interest in this subject results from the fact that I also know a lot of people from Israel, as well as Palestinians. Three people I count as my friends, not close friends, but friends are former IDF soldiers, one, born in Montreal, one born in Israel, and the other Toronto. There opinions are various. My friend from Montreal considers Sharon as a kind of uncomfortable necessity. "We have to hit 'em hard" is what he told mt in 2000.

I still consider him my friend. I have respect for people, pure and simple. One of them is simply disgusted by the fact that he had to do service defending the settlers, (many who won't join the IDF, as you know) and his time there changed him from a Zionist into an alcoholic.

So let me put it out of your mind that I am an idealogue set in one particular naive perspective, as you would like it, nor am I operating from a position of some deep bias.

I also have a number of Palestinian friends, who also have a variety of opinions, but I am sorry, you have failed to respond to in kind to the general critique of your position on a theoretical level. But this is a web site, these are words, there is no other mode of disoucrse here but theory.

If you want to discuss the issues try answering any one of my queries, for instance the issue of Israel's broken Oslo promise. And it is a broken promise, and it is not some vague, thing that can be pawned of on Arafat, because he got huffy at a meeting with Barak and walked out. He went back to the table at Taba and that is what counts.

The issues are concrete and steel barricades, it is settlement, it is creating a contigous territory from which a state can be administrated.

I for one do not, ideologically adhere relentlessy to the single state solution to this issue, I don't actually care one way or the other. I have half considered that a temporary two state solution, might be part of process which, when things have cooled down, might lead to a single state in the not to distant future, which, in terms of the territorial considerations, involved, (such the oddity of have a state bisect another state, as is the case with Israel seperating Gaza and the West Bank.) seems more logical.

From my point of view those are details to be worked out by the people who will have to live with the solution, but, simply on a theoretical level, I am not going to accept the idea that there is some natural cultural norm, which exist that suggests that Arabs simply are not capable of co-existing with Israelis.

In fact your anectodal references to your meetings with Palestinians where you have agreed mutually on your position of supporting a two state solution indicates exactly the opposite, because if there is one thing necessary for the creation of a multicultural state, it is for there to be some workable space for agreement, and mutual understanding.

And of course, the reality is, that even today there is actually only one state, and it is Israel, except that a signifigant population lives as second class citizens, without citzenship and without rights in the land in which they were born.

If Israel truly believed in a two state solution, then the IDF would simply leave, and those settlers who wished to stay could figure out there lot with the Palestinians themselves, and the rest could return to Israel, or New York, or Montreal, or wherever they are from and the Palestinians could work things out amongst themselve, as they like.

It is that simple.

[ 10 November 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
outlandist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10253

posted 10 November 2005 12:03 PM      Profile for outlandist        Edit/Delete Post
With respect to the issue of ordinary Israelis and Palestinians settling their differences,this is achievable.I am in no doubt that the ordinary residents of the area would much prefer to live in harmony and peace.

There are those on both sides whose profits and power would cease if there were a resolution to the problem.

Palestinian refugees,for four generation now,live in misery in refugee camps,while the widow Arafat lives in splendour in gay Paree.She is not the only one.The Palestinians have received billions in aid and the refugees still live in misery.

Mr. Sharon has been implicated in shady deals along with his son.Some of the more cynial have suggested the gaza pullout has more to do with diversion than policy.The military/industrial complex would lose sales and influence if there was a resolution to the problem.

Bringing resolution of land disputes to a personal level may facilitate a settlement on an individual basis but I doubt it is in the interest of the powerful to do so.


From: ontario | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged

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