babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Was Withdrawal a Mistake?

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Was Withdrawal a Mistake?
Zaklamont
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5106

posted 25 September 2005 06:31 AM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
Here is an excerpt from an article in Haaretz.com questioning whether withdrawal from Gaza was a mistake.

(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/628662.html

======
Analysis: Sharon has been driven into a corner by Hamas

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

If proof were needed that Israel wasn't to blame for the explosions at the Hamas rally in Jabalya on Friday, the political damage the new Gaza flare-up is doing to Ariel Sharon ought to suffice. With critical timing - a day before a crucial Likud Central Committee meeting - the Hamas Qassam barrage, proving that disengagement brought no security, has driven the prime minister into a corner.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 25 September 2005 02:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...proving that disengagement brought no security, has driven the prime minister into a corner.

Palestinians haven't had security since 1917. Why worry over this?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 25 September 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
The worry is that with Hamas now attacking Israeli civilians within Israel, the Palestinian people will once again (as Abba Eban once opined) miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 25 September 2005 05:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"The worry"? ohara, you must be one of the few people on the face of the planet who thinks that there is only one worry persisting in Israel-Palestine.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 25 September 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
...the Palestinian people will once again (as Abba Eban once opined) miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

This statement has become a cliché, and as such, readily substitutes for thought.

What opportunity is being missed here?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 26 September 2005 10:07 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is this guy capable of math?

Israel has troops in Gaza, and some Qassam rockets are fired into Israel.

Israel doesn't have troops in Gaza, and some Qassam rockets are fired into Israel.

Moreover, this whole argument hinges on the notion that A) Israel's occupation had nothing to do with Hamas becoming the force that it is and B) that the only grievance that Palestinians have with Israel after all this time is a few troops and settlements in Gaza.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8104

posted 26 September 2005 06:48 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
Was Zionism a mistake?
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 26 September 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In theory or practice?
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Vigilante
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8104

posted 26 September 2005 07:55 PM      Profile for Vigilante        Edit/Delete Post
both
From: Toronto | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 26 September 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In theory: yes and no.

In practice: a lot of it.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 26 September 2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Is Canada a mistake?
Is USA a mistake?
In theory yes and no. In practice yes.

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 26 September 2005 08:27 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Is Canada a mistake?
Is USA a mistake?
In theory yes and no. In practice yes.

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Already with selective paraphrasing. Took you one post.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 26 September 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
edited to remove pointless debate (i.e.: banging my head against the wall)

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 26 September 2005 08:49 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You should stop that, it's likely why you have trouble reading.
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 September 2005 08:59 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Alright, let's nip this in the bud.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8238

posted 26 September 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Is Canada a mistake?
Is USA a mistake?
In theory yes and no. In practice yes.
Everybody knows that Canada is a country that works in practice, but not in theory.

[ 26 September 2005: Message edited by: obscurantist ]


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 26 September 2005 09:09 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't know, I always kind of thought of it the other way around, obscurantist.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
goatlips
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10378

posted 26 September 2005 10:56 PM      Profile for goatlips   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon is pretty shrewd.
quote:
Taking their cue from the Palestinians themselves, these various forces have little interest in a Palestinian state itself, only in using the lack of one as a means to undermine Israel and its legitimacy – which in Europe they’ve done very effectively. A continuation of the status quo – whereby the Palestinians are preserved in perpetuity as “deserving” a state without ever having to earn one – would only see further remorseless deterioration for Israel in the world. In that sense, any change in the situation would be for the better – especially a change that makes Gaza not Israel’s problem but everybody’s problem.

Thus, the Egyptians have just deployed their own troops to the strip to replace the evacuated Israeli Defence Force. Why would they do this now the Zionist oppressor has fled and Arab lands are rightfully back in Arab hands? Well, for a very obvious reason: an Islamist squat in Gaza is a far greater threat to the Mubarak regime than it is to Israel. With the Jews out of the way, the Egyptian government can no longer avoid seeing Gaza for what it is. This is one way of re-engaging Arab nations in the grubby reality of Palestinian “nationalism”.

It was my National Review colleague David Frum who came up with the clearest assessment to date of the Israeli strategy: “Could it be that Sharon is calling the bluff of Western governments and the Arab states? By creating the very Palestinian state that those governments and those states pretend to want but actually dread Sharon is forcing them to end their pretense and acknowledge the truth.”
[This is my thinking, also.
Great minds think alike.]

The Frum thesis sounds right to me. In Britain since July 7th, political figures have twisted themselves into pretzels trying to explain how suicide bombers in London are somehow different from suicide bombers in Tel Aviv – unwilling, even as the double-deckers are exploding across Bloomsbury, to abandon their fetishization of the Palestinian cause, and unable to see that in an ever more Islamified continent the Europeans are the new Jews. Maybe an Islamist statelet on the Mediterranean will concentrate even European minds.

This then is the audacious gamble of the Gaza withdrawal: the best way to demonstrate that the Palestinians are undeserving of a state is to force one upon them. It’s a dangerous move, but in a tough neighborhood there aren’t any other kinds.


http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/002326.php
quote:
Ariel Sharon has decided to put an end to this play.


The world wants a Palestinian state? Very well – let them have it. And the result, as we are seeing, is something close to panic in the foreign ministries of the West. Not just the West: the Middle East too. The Egyptians do not want a Hamas state on their borders. They had expected Ariel Sharon to place a cordon between Egypt and Gaza. He has said he will not do so – that he is leaving the job up to the Egyptians. And indeed last month Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz announced that 750 Egyptian soldiers would soon arrive to replace the Israeli Defense Forces.


http://www.davidfrum.com/archive_article.asp?YEAR=2005&ID=282
Careful what you ask for, you might get it.

From: A little bar on the corner of Walk and Don't Walk | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 September 2005 12:54 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That was some post, goatlips. Amid all that nonsense and rubbish, though, this particular bit sticks out as something special:

quote:
The Frum thesis sounds right to me. In Britain since July 7th, political figures have twisted themselves into pretzels trying to explain how suicide bombers in London are somehow different from suicide bombers in Tel Aviv – unwilling, even as the double-deckers are exploding across Bloomsbury, to abandon their fetishization of the Palestinian cause, and unable to see that in an ever more Islamified continent the Europeans are the new Jews.

I don't know whether to dismiss this because it's merely goofy or be concerned because it's dangerously insane.

quote:
obscurantist: Everybody knows that Canada is a country that works in practice, but not in theory.

Michelle:

I don't know, I always kind of thought of it the other way around, obscurantist.


John Ralston Saul, in his "Siamese Twin" book, said that all the arguments and theories of the folks with giant-sized brains should prove that Canada cannot function, and yet in practice we do much better than do most countries.

[ 27 September 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
goatlips
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 10378

posted 27 September 2005 01:22 AM      Profile for goatlips   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What part of it didn't you understand?
From: A little bar on the corner of Walk and Don't Walk | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 27 September 2005 01:31 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose, goatlips, your question could have been asked of many who were wondering how to interpret Mein Kampf when it was first published.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 27 September 2005 02:22 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally, I had a big problem with the assertion that Palestinians (or anyone for that matter) are not 'deserving' of a state.

What if I said, "Jews are not deserving of a state?" What kind of fervour would that cause. I bet ol' Peeches would bust his nut banging it off the wall.

[ 27 September 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 September 2005 05:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
John Ralston Saul, in his "Siamese Twin" book, said that all the arguments and theories of the folks with giant-sized brains should prove that Canada cannot function, and yet in practice we do much better than do most countries.

Yes, I believe obscurantist may have edited his post to switch the two around. If I'm not mistaken, I think he had originally posted that Canada works in theory but not in practice, and I said I thought it was the other way around.

Either that, or I misread what he had posted.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 September 2005 05:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Also: if this thread is going to devolve into sniping, I'm closing it.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 27 September 2005 10:06 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is that all it will take?
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
obscurantist
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8238

posted 27 September 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for obscurantist     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Yes, I believe obscurantist may have edited his post to switch the two around. If I'm not mistaken, I think he had originally posted that Canada works in theory but not in practice, and I said I thought it was the other way around.

Either that, or I misread what he had posted.


No, I originally said "works in practice, but not in theory" (which I heard attributed to Stephane Dion some years back, and he may have been inspired by Ralston Saul's words), and then I edited it to include the original quote that I was responding to.


From: an unweeded garden | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 27 September 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh shoot. Well, sorry about that, then. I could have sworn you had it the other way around. In that case, I agree with you!
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zaklamont
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5106

posted 27 September 2005 09:11 PM      Profile for Zaklamont        Edit/Delete Post
B.L. Zeebub LLD , your reply hinges on the notion that Israel and the Palestinians are at war.

So, I ask you, why all the hairpulling when the Israeli army takes action?...unless you have a different definition of war than I do.


From: Ottawa Ontario | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 28 September 2005 03:04 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Palestinians live under military occupation and/or martial law. It looks like a state of war from here.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3453

posted 28 September 2005 03:21 AM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[I always credited 'Canada works in practice, but not in theory' to Hershel Hardin]
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 28 September 2005 07:13 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Zaklamont:
B.L. Zeebub LLD , your reply hinges on the notion that Israel and the Palestinians are at war.

Uhhhh...which reply do you mean? Reading back, I don't see anything of the sort.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 28 September 2005 07:16 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Palestinians live under military occupation and/or martial law. It looks like a state of war from here.

I disagree. I don't think that the Occupation is a legitimate act of war.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 28 September 2005 10:46 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose Hitler's not declaring war on Poland wasn't a legitimate act of war either, yet the Poles probably thought they were at war regardless.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 29 September 2005 09:01 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Snarky...

What are the advantages to seeing it as a war rather than something else? For one that gives Israel a lot more freedom in what they can do, and takes a certain amount of responsibility away from them. It's the Israeli apologists who have been fighting to call this a 'war' for a long time in order to give themselves the 'self-defense' carte blanche.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 29 September 2005 10:26 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I suppose Hitler's not declaring war on Poland wasn't a legitimate act of war either, yet the Poles probably thought they were at war regardless.

with macabee no longer here i hope you dont feel it is open season on nazi imagery


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 September 2005 10:33 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can decide that, thank you, JPJ.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 29 September 2005 11:04 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
thank you michelle
From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 29 September 2005 11:09 AM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We should never speak of the Na....ooooops, I almost spoke of the unspeakable... Is there somewhere I can do penance, or does that just stick to my soul until judgement?

Cripes...

You'd think he said JEHOVAH! JHVH! JHVH! JHVH!

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-04.htm

[ 29 September 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7554

posted 29 September 2005 12:29 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
i am not sure that joking about nazism is wise.
for me once someone heads down that path anything else said has no real credibility

From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 29 September 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
i am not sure that joking about nazism is wise.
for me once someone heads down that path anything else said has no real credibility

Spoken like a good priest, from a pulpit, with grave intonation. Try that act on someone who cares.

No one is saying that Nazism isn't serious. Elevating any mention of Nazism to sublimity and superstition - well, that's another question entirely.

BTW - what is particularly unspeakable about the Nazi attack on Poland? I mean, if you can answer that question, perhaps some of your precious 'credibility' might be intact.

[ 29 September 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 29 September 2005 01:16 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
JPJ, this is why I don't like it when you (and Macabee before you) try to shadow-moderate and censor the other posters. Because it always turns into an off topic pissing match. Maybe that was your goal, I don't know, but if you do it again, the warnings are going to start.

B.L.Z. if you can't post without personal attacks, then the same goes for you.

Also, I think this thread is a total write-off so I'm closing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca