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Author Topic: Israeli terrorist kills four Palestinians in West Bank
rsfarrell
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posted 17 August 2005 05:41 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
An Israeli Jew killed four people and wounded one other Wednesday afternoon when he opened fire on a group of Palestinians in the industrial area of the northern West Bank settlement of Shiloh.

Asher Weisgan, a 38-year-old driver from Shvut Rahel in the West Bank, transported Palestinian workers to and from the industrial area daily.

On Wednesday afternoon, he picked up the workers to take them home, and stopped on the way out to ask a security guard for a cup of water.

He then stole the guard's weapon, shot dead the two Palestinian workers in his car at the time, and then ran into a factory in the industrial area, where he killed another Palestinian worker outright and wounded two others.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/613936.html


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 17 August 2005 06:01 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
For years I tried to explain to people that the settlers were terrorists; terrorists who did not need to blow themselves up or go on shooting rampages, because with the support of the state, they could terrorize people far more effectively in other ways; shooting up their homes, smashing their cars, setting dogs on them, beating them with pipes, poisoning wells, murdering livestock, destroying crops; with only the occasional drive-by shooting, bombing or murder by car.

People were skeptical. That guy with mask and an AK-47, he is clearly an evil Muslim terrorist; the settlers are merely regrettable. Two peoples, one land, etc., and wait until final status talks. Their antics rarely make it onto film. And, of course, their victims are far less interesting to Westerners in the first place (the current headline of the NYT online: "Israeli Troops Persuade, and Force, Settlers to Leave Gaza." And in the small print below: "Also, an Israeli killed two Palestinians in the West Bank.")

Now, of course, it is obvious that at the first sign of a rift with a state, traditional terrorism is a common choice for settlers. The emotional barrier they have to cross is very small; they have long since stopping seeing Palestinians as human.

[ 17 August 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 August 2005 10:05 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Frankly I reject the use of the word terrorist to describe anyone, or any politcal group. It means nothing and says nothing. It is usually used by the powerful to describe unauthorized violence against the state, or the person the state says that it is portecting.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 August 2005 11:13 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
While many of us have no love for Settlers to describe ALL settlers as terrorists is simply wrong. They have an ideology we may not agree with but only a few of the extremist settlers commit henious crimes of murder and terror.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jingles
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posted 18 August 2005 11:22 AM      Profile for Jingles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Geez, Mac, if only you could extend that same courtesy to Palestinians.
From: At the Delta of the Alpha and the Omega | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 18 August 2005 11:36 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Jingles:
Geez, Mac, if only you could extend that same courtesy to Palestinians.

Knock it off, Jingles. I know you haven't been here in a while, but I am applying the rules listed at the top of the forum pretty firmly.

If you have something to contribute to the discussion, do it without making insinuations about Macabee.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jimmy Brogan
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posted 18 August 2005 11:45 AM      Profile for Jimmy Brogan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm watching the removal of settlers from Kfar Darom and Neve Dekalim live on TV right now. It is hard to believe that these IDF soldiers, acting with such compassion, sensitivity, and most importantly restraint are the same thugs that have terrorized the people of the Gaza for decades.

[ 18 August 2005: Message edited by: JimmyBrogan ]


From: The right choice - Iggy Thumbscrews for Liberal leader | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 18 August 2005 11:57 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think that rsfarrell has raised an important point, though, and although I agree with Cueball's further take on it, I don't think we can get there without going through rsf's observations.

The truth is that, misled or not, desperate people react to desperation in pretty much the same ways, or range of ways. Maybe only a minority of any group will ever fight back as guerrillas or resistance fighters or insurgents, but no group is immune from considering such alternatives should things get bad enough or should power seem inaccessible enough.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 18 August 2005 12:51 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Maybe only a minority of any group will ever fight back as guerrillas or resistance fighters or insurgents, but no group is immune from considering such alternatives should things get bad enough or should power seem inaccessible enough.

That seems true enough.

But what constitutes "bad enough"? I think that's where "insurgents" get promoted to "terrorists". Starvation may be bad enough. Living under brutal oppression may be bad enough. But if you think of some of the most notorious "insurgents" of our time, like Osama B., Timothy M., etc., they're actually pretty priveleged individuals who can't really make the claim that they were "driven" to do what they did out of some kind of desperate necessity.

That, and "who are they fighting back against?" Those who are directly responsible for the bad situation, or those who may, possibly, maybe be peripherally involved (or not) but who present an easy target?


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 18 August 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe the Palestinians could put up a wall or something?
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 18 August 2005 03:16 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is simply more evidence that occupation/land usurpation can make "terrorists" of us all...
From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 August 2005 06:17 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"terrorists" of us all....I dont see it that way. The majority of the settlers left without having been forcibly moved. Those that styaed did not engage in vilent murdering activities. And with the exception of the one tragice incident by the Israeli extremist , the rest though vocal have not engaged in terrorist acts.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 18 August 2005 08:09 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The settlers may not directly be terrorists themselves (at least no most of them), but they are backed by the "state terrorism" of Israel. Which makes the settlers indirect terrorists at the least.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 18 August 2005 10:55 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well LT thanks for the usual rhetoric but in fact the State of Israel is no more a "terrorist" state than any other independent nation defending its people. But we have had this discussion before. You probably wont convince me of your hard-line position and I wont convince you of my mainstream one, so let each of us not even try.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 18 August 2005 11:25 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
"terrorists" of us all....I dont see it that way. The majority of the settlers left without having been forcibly moved. Those that styaed did not engage in vilent murdering activities. And with the exception of the one tragice incident by the Israeli extremist , the rest though vocal have not engaged in terrorist acts.

Two "tragic incidents," as long as you're counting. Two multiple-fatality shooting rampages in as many weeks. Entire years of the conflict have gone by (while the Israelis shouted to high heaven about terrorism) without as many Jewish causualities, if you want to count the cost.

As for your attempt to position the shooters as marginal in the settler movement, that's clearly not the case. Nor is it true that most settlers do not engage in terrorism, rather, most settlers are content to terrorise with the lower-level forms of harassment cited above, often with the assistence of the IDF. Driving people off their land by force or threat of force is terrorism, and a responsible adult who choses a life in the settlements is an accomplice to that terrorism.

Furthermore, in most circles, the people who arm the terrorists, train the terrorists, justify them in sermons and speeches, and give them political direction are considered part of the terrorist organization, and thus terrorists themselves. Israel has assasinated a great many Palestinians, who may have never touched a gun or a bomb, on the strength of that logic. Do you disagree? Or is the concept of a terrorist infrastructure applicable to Palestinians but not to Jews?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 19 August 2005 02:42 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Well LT thanks for the usual rhetoric but in fact the State of Israel is no more a "terrorist" state than any other independent nation defending its people.
Yes, if you call yourself "mainstream" you can never be a terrorist.

quote:
Born in Acre (northern Palestine) in 1936, Ghassan Kanafani was a major spokesman for the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and founding editor of its weekly magazine Al- Hadaf. His novels, short stories, and plays have been published in sixteen languages. He and his niece were killed in Beirut in 1972 by a car-bomb planted by Israeli Mossad agents.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 August 2005 09:00 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Terrorism is applicable to those who carry out terrorism. Try as you might Mr/Ms. Farrell to lump Israel into the terrorist camp it just doesnt work for the mainstream of society. It knows and understands the difference between Palestininas who yearn for peace and those who wallow in terrorism as a menas to an end. It can also distinguish the same for Israelis.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 August 2005 09:08 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Magoo:

That seems true enough.

But what constitutes "bad enough"? I think that's where "insurgents" get promoted to "terrorists". Starvation may be bad enough. Living under brutal oppression may be bad enough. But if you think of some of the most notorious "insurgents" of our time, like Osama B., Timothy M., etc., they're actually pretty priveleged individuals who can't really make the claim that they were "driven" to do what they did out of some kind of desperate necessity.

That, and "who are they fighting back against?" Those who are directly responsible for the bad situation, or those who may, possibly, maybe be peripherally involved (or not) but who present an easy target?



These questions arise, first of all, from a fallacy: that in trying to analyse and understand violent protest actions, one is rationalizing or justifying them. It was clear from my previous post that I was not trying to do that, and I will not be nudged and fudged and fuzzed into doing it either.

I don't know how many times the glaringly obvious point has been made or ever needed to be made that the leadership of militant organizations -- as indeed of governments, especially oppressive or warlike ones -- everywhere through the centuries have been drawn from relatively privileged elites, and their motives and interests may be more or less cynically disguised from the militants whom they want to go out to die for them and "the cause." Does any literate adult here truly need examples, historical or contemporary? Those U.S. marines who are going to die today in Iraq -- you seriously think that Dubya has ever told them the truth about why they are dying?

As for the targets, people who believe they are being invaded may decide that they are making the invaders "pay" by doing just about anything, as we have seen. You don't have to justify that logic to see how it works, especially when power imbalances are so great that the protesters have no effective means of drawing close to those who wield real power on the other side.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 19 August 2005 09:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just a little note that I'm following this thread and I would like it to stay away from any personal attacks or insinuations. (Pre-emptive moderating. ) Macabee, you're getting close to the line with your characterizations of people as "hardliners" and yourself as "moderate".

BTW, you are unable to receive private messages, Macabee, so I can't respond to your pm. (They've been turned off since you were suspended - we do that so that people who are suspended won't be bothered by pms that they can't respond to.) You'll need to turn them on through your profile if you want me to be able to respond.

[ 19 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 19 August 2005 09:13 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And a further note: from reports in today's and yesterday's G&M, it appears that settlers in a couple of Gaza settlements have attempted sporadic attacks on nearby Palestinian houses and villages.

Of course they are being stopped, but these are not isolated incidents, and I think we have to assume that they will continue to happen on the West Bank.


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venus_man
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posted 19 August 2005 11:11 AM      Profile for venus_man        Edit/Delete Post
Extremism is a disease, indeed. Whether it is Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Communist-no matter, it’s all bad. Extremists are like school bullies who never grow up and are still thinking that they can force their miserable believes upon others who apparently do not see or understand. Force is a key word; because that’s the only means they know. Take Hammas for example-do they want peace and prosperity? I doubt it. They want the conflict to go on for in it, it seems, is their food and “ideological” battlefield. Indeed they are the BAD shepherds for a crowd. Tactics are familiar-fear, anger, dependence, irritation, violence. Good and non-violent people are almost sucked into this psychopathic cycle.
Same in regards to Jewish extremists, who are fighting for a “cause”, once again, it seems, out of hate, fear and anger.
What a pile of crap all of them.

Though my view is that enough showing Palestinians as innocent, poor victims and Israelis as some kind of monsters. I know some would irritably bombard me with thousands of instances proving the Israeli terrorism. And someone can find thousands instances of the opposite. This again shows how those false ideologies of hate and anger spreaded and enforced (in a variety of ways) by extremists hook people’s minds and emotions as helpless fish in a pound. I think that majority of the Israel and Palestinian population should speak up against extremists showing who’s really in charge of the situation. United we stand and move forward, aren't we?

From: outer space | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 August 2005 06:37 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
[QB]"terrorists" of us all....I dont see it that way. The majority of the settlers left without having been forcibly moved. Those that styaed did not engage in vilent murdering activities.

A prime difference is that the IDF tends to "shoot first and ask questions later" when it deals with Palestinians; an attitude notably absent in their dealings with Jewish settlers.

Imagine that the IDF had come in at dawn, kicked everyone out of their houses without allowing them to pack their things and then bulldozed the homes in front of the victims.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 19 August 2005 10:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by venus_man:

Though my view is that enough showing Palestinians as innocent, poor victims and Israelis as some kind of monsters. I know some would irritably bombard me with thousands of instances proving the Israeli terrorism. And someone can find thousands instances of the opposite. This again shows how those false ideologies of hate and anger spreaded and enforced (in a variety of ways) by extremists hook people’s minds and emotions as helpless fish in a pound. I think that majority of the Israel and Palestinian population should speak up against extremists showing who’s really in charge of the situation. United we stand and move forward, aren't we?

I appreciate this sentiment but it strikes me as somewhat short of political and historical content. While I agree that there is some cogenecy to extremist cycle of violence idea, as it pertains to the Palestinian issue and elsewhere, misses the political context wich generates the violence in the first place.

If it were so simple for "extremists" to manipulate the political process through violence there would be no peaceful enclaves left on earth at all.

In the case of the Palestinians violence and retaliation must be looked at throught the lens of the grinding poverty existant in the occupied territories, and hopeless conditions that result from 38 years of martial law and opression, expecially that of the last few years. This too must be contextualized in the massive ethnic cleansing of Arabs in 1948, wherein many of these Arabs were forced from their homes and into the ghettos which they now live with their many bitter children.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 19 August 2005 10:54 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Another Israeli makes his voice heard:

Worshippers find pig's head in yard outside Jaffa mosque

quote:
Worshippers found a pig's head Friday in the yard outside the Hassan Bek mosque, between Tel Aviv and Jaffa. Mosque employees alerted the police, and officers launched an investigation.

The pig's head was wrapped in a keffiyeh with the word Mohammed written on it.

Investigators will check whether the incident is linked to other attempts to sabotage the mosque. Rocks have been hurled at the mosque recently, and windows have been broken.


The "cycle of extremism" nonsense is very soothing to outsiders, because it allows them to deplore the state of affairs without troubling to determine who and what are responsible for the conflict ("extremism") nor any practical means for resolving it ("curb the extremists").

This battle-cry of passivity is heard wherever brutality and violence inspire the desire to look away. It was used in Bosnia with the Muslims and the Serbs, and never mind such details as who attacked whom, who had guns and who did not, who was ethnically cleansing large areas of the country and who was not.

Sorry, but the truth is that extremism has almost nothing to do with the conflict. Extremists on both side are only the tip of the spear. This is a war between Zionists who want the homeland of the Palestinians and the Palestinians who refuse to give it to them. It's as complex and morally nuanced as a mugging.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 19 August 2005 11:35 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

BTW, you are unable to receive private messages, Macabee, so I can't respond to your pm. (They've been turned off since you were suspended - we do that so that people who are suspended won't be bothered by pms that they can't respond to.) You'll need to turn them on through your profile if you want me to be able to respond.

[ 19 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]



Since I didnt realize I was suspended I didnt realize my message ability for babble was off. I have now turned it back on. Thanks

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged

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