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Author Topic: Haaretz: Jews a minority in Greater Israel
rsfarrell
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posted 10 August 2005 08:33 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
It's official:

Haaretz probe: Jews no longer a majority west of Jordan

quote:
By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent

For the first time since the establishment of Israel, the proportion of Jews living in territories under the country's control has dropped below 50 percent, standing slightly more than 49 percent, according to a probe conducted by Haaretz.

. . . and let's not forget several million refugees.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 10 August 2005 08:43 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
However in the same article I read:

quote:
According to the figures, following the upcoming disengagement, the proportion of Jews in territories under Israeli control will jump to 56.8 percent. As a result of this development, demographic expert Prof. Sergio Della Pergola of the Hebrew University said the country is ensured of a Jewish majority within its territories for the next 20 years

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 August 2005 08:48 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But of course none of that matters really, as ethnicity has nothing to do with how people are treated under the law in Israel. I am sure we all agree on that. Right?

Given that this is so, and all these researchers no doubt agree to the above princple, one wonders why this issue seems to be of interest to anyone. Unless of course I am wrong in my initial assumption.

[ 10 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 10 August 2005 08:53 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps a reason behind the disengagement. However if more West Bank settlements continue to be built, the "problem" remains in full.

Beyond Israel/Palestine, this is another complex issue:

quote:
In addition, there are 185,000 foreign workers and 290,000 non-Jews who immigrated under the Law of Return and are officially defined as "others." These immigrants are viewed by most of the public as Jewish, but are not recognized as such by the rabbinical establishment, and are not listed as Jews by the Interior Ministry.

I suppose many of these people have a non-Jewish mum and a Jewish dad, or something of that nature? The problem here is the undue power the (orthodox) rabbinical establishment and the religious parties wield. Many people persecuted by the Nazis for being Jewish would not have been accepted as Jews under such provisions.

[ 10 August 2005: Message edited by: lagatta ]


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 10 August 2005 09:17 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I predict that this undue influence will begin to wane in the future. Israelis are firecly secular . This ongoing problem will surface as calm becomes more of a staple. It will allow Israelis to be more inward focused and begin to face their personal domestic issues. A country constatntly at war has no time for domestic matters. My hope is that peace will change the region all the way around for the better.

The dream of secular Zionists is still possible, IMHO. This time however it will be done as originally percieved, two equal and autonomous states one Jewish the other Palestinian.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 August 2005 01:32 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I predict that this undue influence will begin to wane in the future. Israelis are firecly secular . This ongoing problem will surface as calm becomes more of a staple.

I think that that is highly unlikely. You may see a blip of secular assertiveness as Israeli Jews wake up to the fact that the settlers' lawlessness, violence and terrorism do not necessarily end with the Palestinians, as secular Israeli society intended when it raised them up, gave them unchecked power in the territories, and fed their growth. In the long run the power of the religious will grow, because the percentage of Israelis who are Jewish and secular is in steep and irreversible decline.

There are several reasons for this:

* All the growth in the Jewish population in Israel comes from religious families. Secular Jewish women have a fertility rate of about 2.0. Ultra-orthodox women have a fertility rate of 5 to 6. Ordinary religious families fall somewhere in between (2.1 is considered replacement level). Of course, the Palestinian citizens of Israel and other Palestinian populations are growing rapidly as well.

* A larger proportion of secular Jews are able (money, education, language skills, connections) and willing to pursue emigration from Israel. One survey found that: "Some 35 percent of Jewish youths who identify themselves as secular Israelis say they don't want to live in Israel. With Orthodox youths, the figure is 14 percent; among young people identified as "traditional," the figure is 12 percent; and just 9 percent of young ultra-Orthodox say they will emigrate.

"These findings were compiled in a recent survey by the Israel Democracy Institute" ("We are all in the same boat," Israel Harel, Haaretz, 5/27/04 (couldn't find it online)).

* While you say you anticipate calm in Israel's future (the absence of which, we agree, is grist for the zealots' mill) I am not so sanguine. Israel is continuing to oppress the Palestinians in the territories -- even escalating their abuse in the West Bank. The Palestinian population inside the Green Line is fast-growing and increasingly assertive, and the religious population is fast-growing and increasingly hostile to the state. I would not conclude from the fact that the Palestinian leadership is allowing the disengagement to proceed without major disruption as an augury of a long-term calm in Palestine.

These trends will all reinforce only another. Any Texas Hold'em fans out there? I love the game. If you watch people play Texas Hold'em on any other kind of poker, you'll see the same dynamic play out over and over: one person bets big, a second calls or raises, and anyone else in the hand folds. Why do they fold? Because two players have broadcast their commitment to winning the pot, and whichever one of them has the better hand, the rest of the table loses.

Secular Israeli Jews are caught between two fast-growing, competely committed, totally hostile communities; religious Jews and Palestinian nationalists. Whoever comes out on top, they lose. Expect to see a lot of them "folding" in the next twenty years -- either retiring from public life or leaving Israel altogether.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2005 01:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I predict that this undue influence will begin to wane in the future. Israelis are firecly secular . This ongoing problem will surface as calm becomes more of a staple. It will allow Israelis to be more inward focused and begin to face their personal domestic issues. A country constatntly at war has no time for domestic matters. My hope is that peace will change the region all the way around for the better.

The dream of secular Zionists is still possible, IMHO. This time however it will be done as originally percieved, two equal and autonomous states one Jewish the other Palestinian.


Yes I have heard about this fierce secularity. That is why Israel has never been able to resolve a constitution, and instead resorted to a hodge-podge of "Basic Laws" because they have been unable to agree on a framework of a constitution that can accomodate both the secular camp and the religous camp.

If you are going to pose yourself as some kind of knowledgable poster on the inner working of Israeli society, it would be nice if you would not depend on our ignorance, rather than your knowledge when defeding your arguements.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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posted 11 August 2005 02:28 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not very optimistic either - in terms of secular Israelis or secular Palestinians. I can remember when the Palestinian liberation movement was dominated by secular and often socialist movements. Tragically, Israel has seen fit to destroy or subvert these, leaving nothing but Islamic fundamentalists to represent Palestinian interests. And like Jewish fundamentalists, their view of women is little more than dirt.

A great many Israelis but also a great many of the Palestinians with similar characteristics who could leave have simply packed their bags.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 11 August 2005 08:55 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I have never held myself out as an expert in anything. I have opinions that I share.

Lagatta I appreciate your concern and moreso the way you wrote it.

In my last visit to the Midde East I spent time in both Jordan and Israel. What struck me (more especially in Amaan and Tel Aviv) is how cosmopolitan and secular both these thriving world cities have become. I really believe it augers well for the future.

Perhaps Cueball, next time you travel there you can try to see the Middle East in less political terms and absorb the vibrancy of life there, it is a real eye-opener.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2005 02:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Perhaps I will not be spending any of my money in Israel.
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DrConway
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posted 11 August 2005 03:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Big loss, I'm not even leaving Canada.

Seriously, the much-vaunted "secularism" of Israel is as much a myth as the "secularism" of the United States.

Both, de facto, are governed with preferential treatment for one religion due to the actions of a vocal, well-organized, militant religious minority. Such cases never bode well for tolerance or respect because such militant religious fundamentalism comes with a standard add-on called the "I'm-right-and-anybody-who's-wrong-is-of-no-account" disease.

It's very comforting to have such an absolutist worldview but it means that those who have it may not feel compelled to consider other points of view.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 11 August 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Neither of you has been to Israel yet you feel comfortable coming to the conclusion that secularism is more myth than reality. You need not be an expert to walk Tel Aviv's streets on the Sabbath and hear Jazz, rock, lively dance and song, beach parties, an active gay community and much more.

I am amazed that you Cueball complain that I have some kind of expertise yet reach improper conclusions. It takes no expert it takes your eyes , ears and common sense.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 August 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, everyone, lets steer this away from personal stuff and back to the subject at hand. I could see the possibility of this starting earlier but I wanted to see if it would get back on topic without me stepping in. Let's get back to discussing the subject without making it personal. I realize you are challenging each other's perceptions on Israeli society, but when it starts getting down to arguing over who has enough cred, or enough firsthand knowledge to post opinions, I think that's going to start going down the usual road of personal attacks.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 11 August 2005 07:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Neither of you has been to Israel yet you feel comfortable coming to the conclusion that secularism is more myth than reality. You need not be an expert to walk Tel Aviv's streets on the Sabbath and hear Jazz, rock, lively dance and song, beach parties, an active gay community and much more.

I doubt you've been shy about criticizing Iran in the past.

The point being that neither you nor I need to have been somewhere in order to realize certain salient points: Religious fundamentalism cannot be allowed to gain a seat at the table of government, and official government preference of one religion over another is a recipe for intolerance and, ultimately, disaster.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2005 07:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Neither of you has been to Israel yet you feel comfortable coming to the conclusion that secularism is more myth than reality. You need not be an expert to walk Tel Aviv's streets on the Sabbath and hear Jazz, rock, lively dance and song, beach parties, an active gay community and much more.

I am amazed that you Cueball complain that I have some kind of expertise yet reach improper conclusions. It takes no expert it takes your eyes , ears and common sense.


Thanks for the infomercial... now on to the news... "Internet surfer claims to know all bigraphical details of other internet surfers through ESP."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 11 August 2005 07:47 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
All right, all right.

Let it end now and move on. We've already established that no one has to visit a country in order to talk about it on babble.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 11 August 2005 08:38 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I've been to Israel. What O'Hara's describing is what you'd find in Sudbury on a Saturday night, more or less.

Hardly seems worth an occupation, eh?

Some people tend to think the party atmosphere of Tel Aviv (and Tiberius, for that matter) is somehow indicative of the liberal euphoria that comes from true freedom and democracy. I think of it more as a reaction to the dreadful events going on all around them. Why feel bad, when you can drink and dance, especially when you can afford it?

Tiberius especially, left me with a bitter taste in my mouth. I was in a 4-star hotel at the time, and the noise never subsided until at least 5 o'clock in the morning.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 August 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
It's official:

Haaretz probe: Jews no longer a majority west of Jordan

. . . and let's not forget several million refugees.


Are the statisticians saying that the Jewish population in the territories is shrinking or that the Jewish population in Isreal is shrinking?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 11 August 2005 09:16 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Neither of you has been to Israel yet you feel comfortable coming to the conclusion that secularism is more myth than reality. You need not be an expert to walk Tel Aviv's streets on the Sabbath and hear Jazz, rock, lively dance and song, beach parties, an active gay community and much more.

I am amazed that you Cueball complain that I have some kind of expertise yet reach improper conclusions. It takes no expert it takes your eyes , ears and common sense.



Judging Israel by Tel Aviv is like judging the United States by New York City.

Sure, you can find jazz playing within walking distance of Dizengoff Square, or along Allenby, but those places are in stark contrast to much of the country. Tel Aviv is the exception. Tiberius is also an exception - it has long been a 'resort town' - a place where the well-to-do go to enjoy a little RnR along the shores of Lake Genneset and not really representative of daily life in Israel as a whole. Sort of like Bracebridge in the middle of Canada Day weekend, but without the blackflies and hosers.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 August 2005 09:53 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Are the statisticians saying that the Jewish population in the territories is shrinking or that the Jewish population in Isreal is shrinking?


They are saying that while the Jewish population is growing, it is growing at a slower rate than the non-Jewish population, and that the non-Jewish population has surpassed the Jewish population when all the Israeli-ruled territories -- "Greater Israel" -- are taken as a whole.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 11 August 2005 10:07 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:


Judging Israel by Tel Aviv is like judging the United States by New York City.

Sure, you can find jazz playing within walking distance of Dizengoff Square, or along Allenby, but those places are in stark contrast to much of the country. Tel Aviv is the exception. Tiberius is also an exception - it has long been a 'resort town' - a place where the well-to-do go to enjoy a little RnR along the shores of Lake Genneset and not really representative of daily life in Israel as a whole. Sort of like Bracebridge in the middle of Canada Day weekend, but without the blackflies and hosers.

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


Well said. To look at these comments in light of the thread topic reminds us that the life ohara is describes is not the life of the nation, though it is the nation's favorite public face. It is the life of a privileged minority. The land, the labor, and most of all the freedom of the majority have been sacrificed for that pleasent little walk listening to the jazz clubs.

Dismissing concerns about Israeli society as "political" views as opposed to substantial reflects a point of view that is far from complete. Only if you identify exclusively with wealthy, secular Israeli Jews -- a minority within a minority -- is Tel Aviv your reality, and can the rest reduced to "politics" (though some, to their credit, do no such thing).

Millions of people under occupation are "politics". Fanatical settlers shooting up buses are "politics". Hundreds of thousands of Arab citizens of Israel without water, power, sewage, or roads is "politics." One-third of Israeli children living in poverty are "politics."

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 11 August 2005 10:56 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Some 5.26 million Jews and 1.35 million Arabs, live in Israel today, according to figures published by Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS). In addition, there are 185,000 foreign workers and 290,000 non-Jews who immigrated under the Law of Return and are officially defined as "others." These immigrants are viewed by most of the public as Jewish, but are not recognized as such by the rabbinical establishment, and are not listed as Jews by the Interior Ministry.



According to this, their are about 5 million Jews in Isreal and 1 million Arabs I may just have been clobered by the idiot stick, but it looks like the number of Israli jews outnumbers the number of Arabs.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 11 August 2005 11:03 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Jews are still the majority in Israel. Israel remains a democratic state with flaws and serious issues in a very dramatic part of the world.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 11 August 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That must explain why so many of them are living outside of Israel in the WB and Gaza Strip. They don't want to shift the demographics to much, so as to make the Israeli-Arabs feel like an isolated and opressed minority. They are spreading the love, good time, jazz concerts all around!

[ 11 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 12 August 2005 12:28 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Jews are still the majority in Israel. Israel remains a democratic state with flaws and serious issues in a very dramatic part of the world.

Why does it seem like you're doing these speeches like Brezhnev used to? (Hint: He read off a paper, verbatim, in the most unimpressive manner possible. Anyone could tell he read his speeches as though they were talking points.)


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Papal Bull
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posted 12 August 2005 01:31 AM      Profile for Papal Bull   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Does it really matter who is the majority?

Demographics change.


From: Vatican's best darned ranch | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 August 2005 02:37 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

According to this, their are about 5 million Jews in Isreal and 1 million Arabs I may just have been clobered by the idiot stick, but it looks like the number of Israli jews outnumbers the number of Arabs.

As the article points out, it depends how you count. South Africa in its later years high a majority of white citizens; they achieved this feat by granting blacks "citizenship" in small, isolated bantustans, and denying them citizenship in South Africa.

Israel has never defined its borders, so it is a matter of debate who is or is not a resident of Israel. But the West Bank and Gaza have been forcible joined to Israel for 38 years, almost one out of every ten Jews lives in the West Bank or Gaza (and the state considers them residents of Israel) and representatives of the Israeli government have repeatedly claimed title to the entire area. It is therefore reasonable to consider pre-1967 Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan, as a single region.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 12 August 2005 07:29 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Why does it seem like you're doing these speeches like Brezhnev used to? (Hint: He read off a paper, verbatim, in the most unimpressive manner possible. Anyone could tell he read his speeches as though they were talking points.)

Knock it off, DrConway. Next time you get your second warning.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 12 August 2005 01:17 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But the West Bank and Gaza have been forcible joined to Israel for 38 years, almost one out of every ten Jews lives in the West Bank or Gaza (and the state considers them residents of Israel) and representatives of the Israeli government have repeatedly claimed title to the entire area.

So what would happen if we removed the West Bank Gaza and the Golan from the equation?

Are you sure that one in ten Isreali Jews live in the territories? Dear God! No wonder Isreal is so right wing.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 August 2005 06:59 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

So what would happen if we removed the West Bank Gaza and the Golan from the equation?

Are you sure that one in ten Isreali Jews live in the territories? Dear God! No wonder Isreal is so right wing.


I don't know -- what would happen if you removed South-Central LA from the state of Californa? Grrr. I don't think you can address Israel's responsibility by disgourging tiny non-viable fragments of territory -- playing the game of excluding maximum Palestinians while cedeing mininum land. This is doubly true when the occupation continues in the form of a siege -- remember, occupation is not defined by settlements (which aren't supposed to be there in any case) but by military control. That remains after the disengagement, and hence so does the occupation.

To answer your question: the Golan has few Arabs, because Israel ethnically cleansed the Golan after they captured it, expelling 70,000 Syrians of the course of a few days. So its demographic impact is minimal.

Israel excluding Gaza is about 57% Jewish. On current trends, that puts the tipping point at about 2020, as opposed to last year.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 12 August 2005 07:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even more reason to send them back across the green line. Imporve the deomgraphics in Israel proper. Not only that, and evacuation might actually lead to stablility, peace and prosperity, which would no doubt make Israel more attractive to other Jewish immigrants.

Who'd 'ave thunk it!


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 August 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you sure that one in ten Isreali Jews live in the territories? Dear God! No wonder Isreal is so right wing.

Estimates of the settler population in 2004 are about 430,000 -- 450,000. Growth in past years has been in the range of 5 to 8%. So taking the middle of those values, the population at this moment is about 470,000. The Israeli Jewish population is about 4.9 million (an unknown number of those live primarily abroad and are Israelis in name only). So 470,000/4,900,000 = 9.6%.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 August 2005 07:24 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Even more reason to send them back across the green line. Imporve the deomgraphics in Israel proper. Not only that, and evacuation might actually lead to stablility, peace and prosperity, which would no doubt make Israel more attractive to other Jewish immigrants.

Who'd 'ave thunk it!


So the religious settlers, so accustomed to rolling over Palestinians and defying the law -- their homes demolished and their lives uprooted -- are going to become part of the demographic struggle with a Palestinian population 1.35 million strong and increasingly demanding equal rights. And you think that the resulting dynamic will encourage people to move to Israel?

Because the birth rate of Palestinian citizens of Israel is so high, any positive impact on Israeli demographics will be temporary. Much like sending fresh divisions into the Sunni Triangle, deploying former settlers to fight the demographic struggle against Palestinians in the Gailee may help in the short term -- in the long term it is simply feeding more lives and money into an unwinnable stuggle.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 13 August 2005 02:39 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Some 5.26 million Jews and 1.35 million Arabs, live in Israel today...

Note the "live in Israel". How many Palestinians live OUTSIDE Israel? We should add those numbers up as well!!!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 August 2005 04:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Shush child. We are talking about statistics here not the truth.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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