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Author Topic: Israeli Bulldozers Destroy Remains of Byzantium Church in Gaza
Cueball
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posted 31 July 2005 11:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
GAZA, July 20, 2005, (WAFA)- Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities (MTA)

quote:
Director General of MTA, Dr. Moin Sadeq, told WAFA that Israeli troops razed yesterday (Tuesday) a site of huge remains of Byzantium Church, close to the shore of Deir Albalah City, south of Gaza.

He said that the site consisted of floors made of mosaic constructed in 586 AD, pointing that MTA reconstructed it in Arle City in France in 2000.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 31 July 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Moderator Status: On.

I would request that those who post on this thread try not to argue too much.

Moderator Status: Off.

This is reminiscent of the destruction of Iraq's cultural heritage through looting that was at the very least blatantly overlooked by the US armed forces.

The link isn't clear if there were artifacts at the site as well, but it seems to me that if there were, then we shall soon see private art collectors suddenly sporting new Arab artifacts from circa AD 600.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
nister
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posted 31 July 2005 04:15 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If I were Prime Minister, the first thing I'd do is park a Caterpillar 'dozer on the Israeli Embassy lawn in Ottawa.

Next thing I'd do is issue videophones and camcorders to the Palestinian Authority, so as to get some raw truth out to the world.


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Macabee
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posted 31 July 2005 06:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Has this been verified by any other objective media?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 31 July 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Have you looked?
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 31 July 2005 06:45 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes I have, checked Ha'aretz one Israeli newspaper that would never be afraid to report such a thing , checked Jerusalem Post, a number of Canadian papers and some European and American news services ...no luck. I will continue to check.
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Hinterland
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posted 31 July 2005 06:54 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'll see what I can find. I'll check non-anglophone media as well.

[ 31 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


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Macabee
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posted 31 July 2005 07:06 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have only found a couple blogs and stories from web discussion groups all of which reference the wafa story.
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pogge
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posted 31 July 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is from the Jerusalem Post the day after the article that starts the thread.

quote:
Palestinian archaeologists say they fear that when Israel withdraws from Gaza it will also take priceless archeological artifacts. Israeli officials have acknowledged this is a possibility.

A military installation in the northwestern tip of the Gaza Strip surrounds a sixth century Byzantine church, discovered in 1999 by an Israeli archaeologist. The well-preserved 1,461-year-old church, which measures 13 by 25 meters, has three large and colorful mosaics with floral-motifs and geometric shapes. Nearby is a Byzantine hot bath and artificial fishponds.


There seems to be a difference of opinion here. Palestinians accuse the Israelis of wanting to profit from the site while the Israelis claim they're protecting it because the Palestinians won't. If the site was destroyed the previous day, would they still be arguing about it?

Moin Sadeq is quoted in this story too.

quote:
Dr. Moain Sadeq, director general of the Department of Antiquities in Gaza and a professor of archaeology at the Islamic University in Gaza, said the Palestinians' concern stems from the 1974 removal by Israel's Antiquity Authorities of a sixth century Byzantine mosaic from Gaza City, called "King David Playing the Lyre," which now decorates the synagogue section of the Israel Museum.

"Probably it was done to preserve the mosaic," said Israel's Hizmi. "Maybe there was an intention to return [the mosaic] and it didn't work out. I don't know why."



Is it possible that a statement expressing concern about future destruction was garbled into a story about past destruction?

[ 31 July 2005: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 31 July 2005 07:25 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Or is it possible that the wafa story was a lie?

[ 31 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 31 July 2005 07:26 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do you consider "objective"?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 31 July 2005 07:31 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Or is it possible that the wafa story was a lie?

Anything's possible. Normally, people present evidence to back up the accusation of lying.


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Cueball
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posted 31 July 2005 11:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Has this been verified by any other objective media?

It is absolutely astounding that the one of the first comments made here immediatly attacks the source as not credible. I will note that Macabee has never immediatly attacked an Israeli source.

Therefore, I assert that the only reason that the source is being attacked as fundamentally untrustworthy is because it originates from Palestinians.

I assert that this immediate attempt to submerge Palestinian narrative as untrustworthy is in fact an example of the complaint made:

quote:
The DG mentioned that, through the destruction of Palestinian antiquities, "Israel tries to burry the evidences of the Arab roots in Palestine".

There is no greater tool of colonial enterprise than the silencing of the narrative of the colonized.

I further assert that as the PA, is the internationally recognized agent of the Palestinian people, and recognized as such by the UN and Israel, that its statements of fact should be accorded as much respect as any statement of the Israeli Government, unless that it can be proved as false.

In conclusion I will note the folllowing:

After I posted this, I got a query from another poster about this thread.

They asked: "Is this an experiment?" (reffering as it turned out to this thread location in the humanities section as opposed to the ME forum.)

My reply was: "Yes. I thought I would use a Palestinian source for a change."

Unfortunately, my suspicions about the reaction to this story about damage to the archaelogical heritage of the people of the world, when testified to by Arabs, was all to prescient.

Shame on you Macabee. Arabs an Israelis will never manage any kind of peace, if Zionists insist on casting doubt upon the veracity of anything Arab people say simply because they are Arab. I am tempted to ask: "Are you asserting that there is something essentially less trustworthy about Arabs than other peoples?"

But I will not.

I will refrain from expressing my exact views on essential nature of your comment out of respect for rules of decorum laid down elsewhere in this forum regarding discussion on this topic.

[ 31 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 31 July 2005 11:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Argh. I was right there with you up until this point, Cueball:

quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Shame on you Macabee.

Please make your point without that sort of thing - this is just what I've been warning Macabee and others about. Since I gave them all (somewhat) friendly reminders before handing out warnings, this one can be yours.

Thanks.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 July 2005 11:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It would seem that Palestinian concerns about "carelessness" is not without precedent:

Our man returns from Nablus: the historic core has been wrecked


quote:
This area, in the very heart of the souk, was bombed by an F-16 jet. Only vestigial stone vaults remain around the edge of the crater (see illustrations). The blast also wrecked the now rebuilt street frontage of a Greek Orthodox Church.

It is a huge rent in the historic fabric of the city. As with the hammam, the Israeli forces have said that the factory buildings were being used by militants. They cleared out hundreds of local residents into nearby schools before bombing the area.

The Israeli claims do not explain why two months later the army returned to flatten the rubble of the caravanserai. It had been earmarked for a €3.5million restoration project funded by the EU.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 July 2005 11:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CounterPunch

quote:
For over a year, the Israeli army has occupied the Armenian property of Baron Der, citing Israeli security as its justification. In April of 2002, without the knowledge or consent of the Armenian Patriarchate, the Israeli Army paved a military road through Baron Der. The road is approximately 1000 meters long and 50 meters wide. When paving the road, the IDF destroyed tombs and antiquities on the property, uprooted many of the olive trees that had been on the property for centuries and rendered the property essentially unusable. At that time, an Israeli military commander and representative of the Israeli Army stated that the road would be for temporary use only. He further "reassured" the Armenian Patriarchate that the Israeli Army would restore the area to its original state once the situation in the region settled.



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Michelle
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posted 31 July 2005 11:49 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I know you're going to be annoyed with me over this, Cueball, but I'm going to move this to the Middle East forum. I understand the humanities and science aspect, but I think the discussion is headed more towards the regional conflict aspect of the story.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 31 July 2005 11:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"The destruction of heritage sites in cities such as Bethlehem, Nablus and Hebron by Israeli forces is of tremendous concern. Considering the historical significance of these cities to so many cultures, this is an international tragedy." Dr. Claire Smith, President of the World Archaeological Congress, said today. "'There is a pattern of destruction here and at this moment there are unconfirmed reports that the Israeli military is initiating an operation in the old city of Nablus in the west bank targeting an area in close proximity to AbdulaHadi Palace. This palace was constructed during the Ottoman period in 1855 for Mohamad Bek Abdul- Hadi, and is considered to be one of the significant architectural sites in the city. It is unacceptable for any country to destroy archaeological sites. In this case, in particular, it is attacking another nation's cultural identity. The confirmed destruction of other sites includes sites partly excavated by the Israel Antiquities Authority between 1967 and 1993. Of particular concern is the destruction of heritage sites by the wall being constructed by the Israeli Government in the Palestinian territories.


Press release requires Adobe Acrobat

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 August 2005 12:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 01 August 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Originally posted by Macabee:
Has this been verified by any other objective media?
............
It is absolutely astounding that the one of the first comments made here immediatly attacks the source as not credible. I will note that Macabee has never immediatly attacked an Israeli source.

Therefore, I assert that the only reason that the source is being attacked as fundamentally untrustworthy is because it originates from Palestinians.

I assert that this immediate attempt to submerge Palestinian narrative as untrustworthy is in fact an example of the complaint made:

quote:The DG mentioned that, through the destruction of Palestinian antiquities, "Israel tries to burry the evidences of the Arab roots in Palestine".

There is no greater tool of colonial enterprise than the silencing of the narrative of the colonized.


Cueball is right. Maccabbee's dismissal of the report because it is from an Arab source is familiar and offensive.

Do I get a friendly warning now too?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 August 2005 01:02 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Please make your point without that sort of thing - this is just what I've been warning Macabee and others about. Since I gave them all (somewhat) friendly reminders before handing out warnings, this one can be yours.

So, when does Macabee get the magic 3 warnings and get punted? I realise this is obviously off-topic and childish, and that I seem to be assuming the role of hall-monitor/snitch, but I've been waiting with bated-breath to see whether Macabee gets turfed as easily as...oh, I don't know...The Klingon...did.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 01 August 2005 09:12 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Cueball is right. Maccabbee's dismissal of the report because it is from an Arab source is familiar and offensive.

Do I get a friendly warning now too?


Yeah, you do. Knock it off. Listen, I don't care if you want to say that it's not right to dismiss a report because it's from an Arab source. I feel the same way about it (and you could say it even if I didn't feel the same way about it). Just don't start with the insinuations about Macabee himself. We already know how you feel about him and how he feels about you. You don't get to have rules that only apply to Macabee but not to you.

Hinterland, if you'd been paying attention in the other thread, Macabee has two warnings. And now, so do you. If he earns a third one, he WILL be suspended. And so will you, if you keep it up. It's ridiculous to keep turning these threads into bad blood sniping sessions.

I don't understand this, really. As of now, Macabee had two warnings and will be suspended on his third. Cueball has none, al-Qa'bong has none, and Hinterland had none too until he started up with the baiting yesterday. And now, suddenly, Cueball, al-Qa'bong and Hinterland are starting up with it, and al-Q and Hinterland seem to be doing it just for the gratuitous fun of baiting me. What the hell is up with that?

Listen, I promised to dedicate myself to going through these threads every day in order to keep them from devolving into accusations of anti-semitism and insinuations that people can't stand. I've been doing my part, and I think I've been moderating pretty fairly. And then Macabee gets to the edge of a suspension and suddenly all the people who would probably like most to see him go seem to be trying to see if they can catch up to him in warnings? I just don't get it.

Anyhow, I'm closing this thread, and hopefully if another one starts, we're not going to get into this meta-discussion crap.

But to answer your question, Hinterland, YES, if Macabee pulls his stuff again, he will be suspended, just like anyone else.

[ 01 August 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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