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Author Topic: Israeli Extremists call for death of Sharon
Macabee
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posted 28 July 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It should be clear that all societies have its fair share of extremists. This group of extreme right wing Jewish religious fundementalists are dangerous idealogues. Their actions, IMHO, border on religious terrorism.

Ha'aretz


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 28 July 2005 01:12 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Talk about biting the hand that feeds them. Or fed them, as it were. Well, nobody ever said religious fundamentalists had any working brain cells.
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satana
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posted 28 July 2005 01:40 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The ceremony, which is supposed to cause the death of the subject within a year, calls upon the angels of destruction to refrain from forgiving the subject his sins, to kill him and to call down all the curses named in the Bible.
Even angels would be "terrorists" for threatening Israel's PM?!
What's so extreme about praying, anyway?

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: satana ]


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ohara
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posted 28 July 2005 07:22 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
This call is dangerous. One would hope that Jewish groups in Canada will issue a statement deploring such ugly and extreme activity.
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rsfarrell
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posted 28 July 2005 07:42 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
They say peace must be based on finding a common ground between the two sides. If that's so, the death sentence on Sharon is a good beginning. He's a mass murderer who deserves every curse the angels have in their quiver. Don't take it from me, listen to what the smug bastard has to say for himself:

quote:
Sharon said that the region's main problem was the refusal of the Arab world to recognize the right of the Jewish people to a state in the "cradle of its birth." He said that this was not a reason to stop the diplomatic process, but rather to act with caution, and "not to trust anyone."

Here he offered a personal anecdote. "During the peace negotiations with Egypt, I was in Cairo and Alexandria many times. I had been in Egypt before, but not on a peace mission." The audience laughed as he continued. "My mother, who was a farmer and perhaps 85 years old, would call on the phone to tell me how much citrus she had picked and how many eggs the hens had laid. At the end of conversation, she always said one thing, 'Don't trust them.'"

One of the listeners asked about Israel's Arab minority. "Today, before your arrival, Israel has 5.5 million Jews and just over a million Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens. Most of them want to live quietly and be an integral part of Israeli society.

"There is a small minority who are active, mostly through the Islamic movement and operated by the Iranians and Hezbollah. It is a small minority, but it is growing, and it is not a simple problem. They have identification cards like us, the same license plates, and they can't be stopped on the roadsides. The answer to these problems is to bring more Jews to Israel," Sharon said.


link

The butcher of Quibya shouldn't die in his bed. I'd happily put a bullet in his brain. Tonight, I'm adding my little prayer to those of the Jewish fundementalist thugs. Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 July 2005 08:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Personally I'd like him tried for Sabra and Shatila, by and ubiased court. It seem counter-productive to let them do their own in and thereby end the possibility of exposing the agenda that both Sharon and the Setters movement share.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 28 July 2005 08:56 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Unfortunately, only a war's losers get tried in an unbiased court for their crimes.

I like the American Civil War model, myself. The racists in the South wanted blacks to be slaves; the racists in the North wanted blacks sent back to Africa. When the smoke cleared, blacks were citizens and a lot of good ole' boys had gone to their just reward.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 July 2005 09:00 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The principle remains the same. Sharon should be tried and made to speak in court. It would be a shame if his collegues were allowed to dispose of him now that he is no longer useful to them.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 28 July 2005 09:16 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
If only. One of the (many) things I find so frustrating about the conflict is that many of the original ethnic cleansers are still alive. Rabin would be availible for trail today had not said fundementalists started with him. Still, there are plenty of other war criminals out there. But today, justice is powerless.

I believe and hope that a free and independant Palestine will someday wish to reach out to the criminals who inflicted so much misery and did so much evil. But by that time the guiltiest of the guilty parties will almost certainally be dead. If the world acted today, we could try the white-haired old men whose youth was spent leveling villages, shooting refugees, or raping and murdering women. They are alive and welcome in Israel. They could easily be found. We can see them but we can't touch them. In the best case they will die of old age and no one will be punished for their crimes.

In the worst case their children will be.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 28 July 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sharon is too old for a bullet to really hurt him. What would hurt him is being dragged to court and embarrassed in front of the whole world, and to smash his place in history as nation builder.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 28 July 2005 10:01 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
In case you missed it, I was agreeing with you above. A trial would be better than a bullet. Of course, a bullet would be better than an honored old age. Besides the demands of justice, there is also the fact that this man has a lot of deadly mischief still in him. Consider it the "targeted elimination" of a "ticking bomb."
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 28 July 2005 11:31 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Farrell and Cueball shame on you for turning this thread into your personal "hate Sharon" board.

Macabee was pointing to a terrible situation of extremism on the hard right in Israel. What you have done here is really unbelievable. Can we not concentrate on the topic at hand instead of supporting such facist thinking because in the end that is what you really seem to be doing.


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Michelle
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posted 28 July 2005 11:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The topic at hand is about Israeli extremists calling for the death of Sharon. They were commenting on that and adding their own sentiments. They weren't off topic at all. Cueball was talking about how if Sharon were assassinated, he wouldn't be around to stand trial for the crimes he has allegedly committed. rsfarrell said that he doesn't want to see Sharon live out his life respectably, and wouldn't care if he was assassinated.

Considering that people on your side of the debate (including Macabee) have supported the targeted killings of people you consider to be criminals on the Palestinian side, I think their comments are within bounds.

With the exception, that is, of rsfarrell's comment that he himself would like to put a bullet into Sharon's brain. rsfarrell, could you do me a favour and keep such sentiments to yourself? Not because I care one way or the other whether you feel that way - I'm sure lots of folks feel the world would be a better place without someone or other - but because babble has in the past had a policy of not allowing people to talk, even hypothetically, about wanting to assassinate public figures. Thanks.

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Not to belabour the point but it seems to me that its a bit of a stretch to move from the discussion of Israeli extremist calls for assasination as a tool to Sabra and Shatilla.

If people want to dicuss this yet again then they are free to create such a thread. I thought tat this discusion was about extremism in Israeli society as expressed by these religious fanatics. Instead what we end up with is the thread used to bash Sharon(and Im not saying his history isnt filled with problems) and even appear to support his death. I do not see how that is in keeping with the topic of the thread.


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rsfarrell
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posted 29 July 2005 12:32 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Doesn't make any sense talking about it if you're not going to do it, I suppose. Sigh. How can one man be such a relentless promoter of violence and evil from one generation to the next, and yet rise on the wings of his many criminal and self-defeating acts to a position of honor and accliam? Always failing upward; commander of a death squad; builder of settlements; colonial master of Gaza; invader of Lebannon; mass murderer by proxy; provocateur on the Temple Mount. And yet there he sits, smug and self-satisfied; proud of every invasion, of the family tradition of not trusting "them"; the crowing achievement of Zionism's unilateralism and the movement's unquestioned leader; feted from France to Fresno.

It's nothing but the old problem, to resolve which thinkers have given us doctrines of heaven and hell, karma and reincarnation, but nothing that quite fits; Why are the evil allowed to prosper and the kind to go to the wall?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 29 July 2005 12:40 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Not to belabour the point but it seems to me that its a bit of a stretch to move from the discussion of Israeli extremist calls for assasination as a tool to Sabra and Shatilla.

If people want to dicuss this yet again then they are free to create such a thread. I thought tat this discusion was about extremism in Israeli society as expressed by these religious fanatics. Instead what we end up with is the thread used to bash Sharon(and Im not saying his history isnt filled with problems) and even appear to support his death. I do not see how that is in keeping with the topic of the thread.


The topic of the thread should never be so narrowly defined that comment is limited to supporting the author's view of the situtition. Sharon is part of the extremism in Israeli society, and the attempt to present him in contrast with "extremists" seems to imply he is a moderate. He is not. Sharon has murdered more people in cold blood than these theatrical fundementalists ever have or ever will.

The extremists are having a little family spat right now, but that is no reason to be confused about the extent of the real differences between them. They are tactical. Both threateners and threatened dream of a "Palestinian population [reduced] to the status of woodcutters and waiters." If these people want take a break from killing Palestinians and kill each other instead, that's all to the good.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
See what I mean? Rsfarrell, why don't you take your hatred of Sharon and Israel to another thread?
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 12:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

With the exception, that is, of rsfarrell's comment that he himself would like to put a bullet into Sharon's brain. rsfarrell, could you do me a favour and keep such sentiments to yourself? Not because I care one way or the other whether you feel that way - I'm sure lots of folks feel the world would be a better place without someone or other - but because babble has in the past had a policy of not allowing people to talk, even hypothetically, about wanting to assassinate public figures. Thanks.

[ 28 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Yup, not the public ones, only large masses of the unknown soldiers whom aren't of note. Funny that this distinction is made, don't you think?

But I guess that is the way of the world.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 12:44 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If these people want take a break from killing Palestinians and kill each other instead, that's all to the good.

I find this kind of rhetoric just plain awful. Urging people to kill each other is not what I ever thought Babble should be used for.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 29 July 2005 12:49 AM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Urging people to kill each other is not what I ever thought Babble should be used for.

Surely this should be beyond debate.

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rsfarrell
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posted 29 July 2005 12:50 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I find this kind of rhetoric just plain awful. Urging people to kill each other is not what I ever thought Babble should be used for.

Technically I am not "urging" anyone to do anything. What I am saying is that, confronted with the very real prospect of an open civil war between Likudniks and the knitted-skullcap crowd, there is one burning question in my mind: Where's my popcorn?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 12:52 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well it is really indicative of the whole mentality of the Likud that rather than being nice and saying, "oh we lost the vote, I guess we have to leave Gaza now," they start going after each other. Sharon himself said they threatened the civilian leadership with a coup in 67. I mean what do you think happens in a coupe? People are handed plane tickets out of the country.

And then of course they offed Rabin too, so its hard to have any real sympathy for this particular set of thugs. Though as I said, Sharon should be tried for Sabra anD Shatila.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 12:52 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf Day:

Surely this should be beyond debate.

One would think so Wilf but first rsfarrell calls for bullet to Sharon's head. He is rightly remonstrated for that. Now he takes it one step further and suggests that these settlers should just kill each other. As Macabee said at the beginning there are extremists in all societies even here at Babble.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Seeds of Fascism

quote:
The settlers obeyed the state only as long as it obeyed them. Having been used by Israel as its Freikorps, as the thugs who do the dirty jobs the state is unable or unwilling to do for itself, the overflow of settlers' traditional violence into the heart of Israel is a natural development. As the Jewish writer Albert Memmi experienced and described so well during the French colonization of Tunisia, "Every colonial nation carries the seeds of the Fascist temptation." Those deadly seeds flourish these days in Israel.

From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 01:08 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But Michelles comment has brought up an interesting point. Persons can not call for the demise of a public figure, but they can advocate war against Iraq, which is advocating slaughter on a mass scale. How is that?

And people have advocated for the death penalty for Karla Homolka, and also as Michelle pointed out suggested that offing Ahmed Yassin was perfectly legitimate. I don't see why Sharon is exempt from such expressions.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 29 July 2005 01:26 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
One would think so Wilf but first rsfarrell calls for bullet to Sharon's head. He is rightly remonstrated for that.

Bandwagon fallacy.

quote:
Now he takes it one step further and suggests that these settlers should just kill each other.

Straw man fallacy.

quote:
As Macabee said at the beginning there are extremists in all societies even here at Babble.

Argumentum ad Hominem.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You forgot the "fallacy fallacy."

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 29 July 2005 02:32 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RSF: "If these people want take a break from killing Palestinians and kill each other instead, that's all to the good."

RSF again: "Technically I am not "urging" anyone to do anything. What I am saying is that, confronted with the very real prospect of an open civil war between Likudniks and the knitted-skullcap crowd, there is one burning question in my mind: Where's my popcorn?"

Garsh, thanks for clarifying! I'd just like to know how often this kind of talk can be rationalized before the moderators wake up to what's happening here and deal with it head on? I mean, this is *exactly* the kind of crap that the bigots on either side feed upon, it helps *noone* including the long suffering Palestinians that RS supposedly cares so much about.

In case everyone's forgotten already, our resident racialist here has already clearly stated that he thinks that *all* Israelis and other -ahem- Zionists are complicit in this to some extend -some just being more "polite" about it than others- as well as the outcome he'd most enjoy seeing. I don't think it's really that hard anymore to draw the obvious inferences.

PS: Please send me a PM the next time you see something else like this Mac or Peech or O'hara et al.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 29 July 2005 02:40 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, there was that farce of an investigation which the pro-Israeli contingent waves around as "proof" that Sharon is lily-white and blameless as the blades of grass on the lawn outside my window. What did it conclude? I seem to recall something about how he was in some vague way materially responsible but that the Falangists were supposedly the real baddies.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 29 July 2005 03:18 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's not the issue here. I don't like George Bush either, and he's a much bigger menace to our freedoms than that old fascist Sharon is, but I don't call for the death of all the bible thumpers either or the defacto destruction of the Christian state of Texas. At least not in public.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 05:01 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Umm, I don't think Farrel is talking about Israel. I think he is talking about the settlers movement, which is the extreme wierdo right in Israel, which has long been both Sharon's cause and the source of his power.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2005 07:25 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
See what I mean? Rsfarrell, why don't you take your hatred of Sharon and Israel to another thread?

Ohara, again. He is commenting on the article at hand. You only get to write your own responses, not everyone else's.

quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I find this kind of rhetoric just plain awful. Urging people to kill each other is not what I ever thought Babble should be used for.

You are willfully misunderstanding what was said. No one is "urging people to kill each other". What he said was that in his opinion, the Israeli extremists killing each other is better than them killing Palestinians.

Listen, if you want to contribute your thoughts about this thread topic, then please do so. But quit twisting other people's contributions and telling people what they're allowed to write and not allowed to write in this thread. That's what I'm here for, and I've already given Macabee a warning for constant hall monitoring that disrupts the threads. Now I'm giving you the same warning. Knock it off.

quote:
But Michelles comment has brought up an interesting point. Persons can not call for the demise of a public figure, but they can advocate war against Iraq, which is advocating slaughter on a mass scale. How is that?

I see your point. However, there's a difference between even saying you're not sorry that one individual person is dead (or saying you'd like to see someone get the death penalty), and talking about how you'd like to kill the person yourself. One implies passive watching while others do the job, and the other implies you going and doing it.

I've heard lots of people say that they'd be the executioner if there were a death penalty for Homolka or Bernardo or Olson, or whomever. So it's not like I'm shocked by what rsfarrell has said, or even his sentiment. All I'm saying is that in the past on babble, we haven't allowed people to make threats against the physical safety of people, even indirect ones, because that could get this board some pretty ugly, unwanted attention. So if someone said, "I'd like to put a bullet in Karla Homolka's brain," and I saw it and was moderating that thread, I would say the same thing.

I think we'd also say the same thing to someone who said, "I'd love to go to war and shoot me some Iraqis." It's not that it isn't a common sentiment, to want someone dead or to be happy that someone is dead, or even to feel capable of pulling the trigger yourself if the person has done something heinous. It's that babble can't host people's statements that they personally want to kill so-and-so.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
In case everyone's forgotten already, our resident racialist here has already clearly stated that he thinks that *all* Israelis and other -ahem- Zionists are complicit in this to some extend -some just being more "polite" about it than others- as well as the outcome he'd most enjoy seeing. I don't think it's really that hard anymore to draw the obvious inferences.

Hi Erik. Perhaps you haven't noticed the new policy in the Middle East forum, which is posted in the forum above the threads. No calling people racists (or "racialists") in this forum, and no implying that people are anti-semites, which is clearly what you're implying above when you claim (wrongly) that rsfarrell is calling for the killing of all Israelis and Zionists. First warning.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 07:53 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Listen, if you want to contribute your thoughts about this thread topic, then please do so. But quit twisting other people's contributions and telling people what they're allowed to write and not allowed to write in this thread. That's what I'm here for, and I've already given Macabee a warning for constant hall monitoring that disrupts the threads. Now I'm giving you the same warning. Knock it off.


I will knock it off as you so eloquently put it, but for the record I do note that there is at least one other here (Eric the Red) who understood rsfarrell in exactly the same way as did I. Your accusation that I "wilfully" twisted his words is a base assumption that is not only wrong but uncalled for. If it were not so why not make the same accusation to Eric the Red?

quote:
You are willfully misunderstanding what was said. No one is "urging people to kill each other". What he said was that in his opinion, the Israeli extremists killing each other is better than them killing Palestinians.



edited to add: I see we cross posted Michelle, nonetheless I stand by my statement that it was wrong of you to claim that I purposely "misunderstood" rsfsrrell. I did nothing of the sort. You and I may disagree as to the meaning of his words but I suppose to play your game I could accuse you of wilfully misunderstanding my words. All I'm saying is that I write what I believe, we may have different takes but it is unfair to tarnish me or others with that kind of brush without some proof of wilfulness and here it just does not exist.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 08:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Soanyways... I thought HaCohens piece on the rise of facism was kinda interesting.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2005 08:31 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought this was a funny sidenote from the Ha'aretz article that rsfarrell posted:

quote:
Sharon introduced the new chairman of the Jewish Agency, former Ra'anana mayor Zeev Bielski, and said, "I was born in a village near Ra'anana, which was known throughout the area as having the prettiest girls. I say this to encourage aliyah, because the situation hasn't changed much."

Um, yeah, okay. Although Sharon ain't a great endorsement for the beauty of the men from that village, huh? Seriously though - move yourself to Israel for the cute chicks? What an assboat.

Regarding the article that started this thread - I wonder what those extremists will think when 30 days passes, and not only has the angel of death not killed Sharon, but also hasn't killed the 30 people involved in the ceremony? Reminds me of the doomsday cults you hear about. Pretty nuts.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 08:49 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
I thought this was a funny sidenote from the Ha'aretz article that rsfarrell posted:

Um, yeah, okay. Although Sharon ain't a great endorsement for the beauty of the men from that village, huh? Seriously though - move yourself to Israel for the cute chicks? What an assboat.

Regarding the article that started this thread - I wonder what those extremists will think when 30 days passes, and not only has the angel of death not killed Sharon, but also hasn't killed the 30 people involved in the ceremony? Reminds me of the doomsday cults you hear about. Pretty nuts.


What a dink Sharon can be...

I agree it is nuts but my fear is that such statements can fuel the crazies out there to act in place of the angel of death as it did in the tragic murder of Rabin.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2005 08:53 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, this is true. Although technically, they weren't calling for people to kill him, were they? Didn't they say specifically that they thought no person could kill him, so they are resorting to divine retribution?

Although, I do recognize that it is incitement, especially given the precedent with Rabin.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 09:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
More silliness

quote:
"This is the silly stupidity of one, maybe two residents. It does not represent anybody. This is sheer ignorance," Ben Hagai told Israel Radio in an emotional interview. "We are going through a great crisis. This crisis does not resemble the Holocaust or anything else."

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 09:17 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It going to be on TV. I hope Farrel has lots of popcorn:

Israel row over Sharon curse film

quote:
A trailer has already been broadcast and shows a group of men performing the rite of Pulsa Denura - an ancient curse with its origins in Jewish mysticism.

Pulsa Denura means "whip of fire" in Aramaic.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 29 July 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Although farrell tried to bring us off course Michelle in her usual good manner has steered us back.

My issue about these crazy religious zealots is that they in fact as has been stated give a sort of permission to act out violently.

Zealotry is an enemy to bot peoples


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ohara
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posted 29 July 2005 12:06 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
And now with the possibility of this call getting wider coverage through Israeli TV really ups the ante!
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Although farrell tried to bring us off course Michelle in her usual good manner has steered us back.

Sigh. Okay, I appreciate the compliment, but the first part of the sentence is pure baiting, even if you wrap it up in a compliment towards the moderator. Could you not have just said, "Thanks Michelle for steering us back on course" without mentioning rsfarrell at all? I really hope that rsfarrell will resist the bait.

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE stop doing that. You're needling and you know it. Cut It Out. The next time you do it, you'll get a second warning.

[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 29 July 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Okay, so back on track...I noticed in one of the articles that someone in Israel who was not in favour of this action by these extremists was blaming the Israeli media for reporting it. And picking up on ohara's last comment, that with the media getting onto this story more widely, it could "up the ante" when it comes to someone perhaps acting on this "curse".

I'm wondering if you (ohara, but anyone else too) have an opinion on what the media's role in this should be.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 29 July 2005 06:49 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
For an interesting take on Israel's trouble with settler-extremists ...

Uri Avnery on the colour wars


From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 29 July 2005 09:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Avnrey is always a good read.
quote:

This influences - consciously or unconsciously - the politicians and media people, who, in their turn, mold public opinion. The Israeli media, almost without exception, have already become a mouthpiece for the settlers. Even a liberal paper like Haaretz, which is (erroneously) considered "left-wing", carries news pages (as distinct from the editorial pages) which often look as if they had been lifted straight from one of the settlers' organs.


[ 29 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 29 July 2005 11:03 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
There is certainally a conflict brewing between the settlement movement and the public at large, which may take on unexpected dimensions at some future point in time, but it's important not to overstate the contrast.

The settlers are terrorists, and like all terrorists, they cannot function without an extensive infrastructure; financial, educational, military. The state of Israel has not begun to interfere with any of those things. The government is still the settlers' primary source of funds. Religious ultranationalistshave their own units, specific to their madrassas ("yeshivas" in the Hebrew).

They are a state within a state, and the rest of Israel is, as a whole, at best ambivilent about the settlers' tactics. They may dispute their effectiveness, but they share the same general assumptions about Manifiest Destiny and the superior right of Jews to the land, the virtue of Jewish civilization and the inferiority of Palestinian civilization. Like Sharon, their leader, they revel in their conquests of Arab lands, consider their mistrust of Arabs a point of pride, and regard the future as one of endless struggle against enemies within and without.

The settlers are only the shadow of that thought, the golem of the madness of Zionism. Defeating them will not mean victory for the tiny minority of Israeli Jews who truly see the Palestinians as equals and are ready for a just peace. If those deeply rooted beliefs are not uncovered and defeated, the shadow will merely take on another form and continue its endless war with reality.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
gunnar gunnarson
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posted 29 July 2005 11:33 PM      Profile for gunnar gunnarson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone needs to turn his/her frown upside down!
From: audra's corner | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 30 July 2005 07:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This wont help that particular cause:

Disengagement's Foreplay

quote:
The clashes between army and settlers should not mislead us. Just like the competition between too ice-cream producers conceals their common interest – getting people to buy more ice-cream – one should remember that the tactical differences between the Sharon government and the settlers conceal a common vision: that of entrenching the occupation of the West Bank. The withdrawal from Gaza – Sharon never made a secret of it – is to be generously compensated by de facto annexation of some 40-60 percent of the West Bank – the so-called settlements blocks, plus the Wall, plus the areas between the Green Line and the Wall, plus so-called strategically important areas, plus Greater Jerusalem – all according to maps prepared by Sharon in the 1970s.

The planned eviction should serve this cause. The more difficult it looks, the more useful it would be for rejecting pressures for future withdrawals. As the "moderate settler" Yoel Bin-Nun explained last week, the settlers know very well that their battle for Gaza was lost; by maintaining the struggle, he said, they want to save the other settlements. Sharon shares the same strategy and vision; the very generous economic compensations offered to the evicted settlers also have the same objective: to make any future withdrawal politically and economically impossible.



From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 31 July 2005 07:12 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Hi Erik. Perhaps you haven't noticed the new policy in the Middle East forum, which is posted in the forum above the threads. No calling people racists (or "racialists") in this forum, and no implying that people are anti-semites, which is clearly what you're implying above when you claim (wrongly) that rsfarrell is calling for the killing of all Israelis and Zionists. First warning.

Hi Michelle,
I've thought about this abit more and youre right, some of my comments went a bit too far. But please tell RsFarrell to stop making such incendiary comments himself, as I have had too many up close experiences with violence myself and seen too many people lost over the years to just shrug it off.

Personally, I wouldn't shed anymore tears for Sharon's demise than I did for those assassinated Hamas leaders, but I see zero evidence yet that such violence does anything more than encouraging more mindless retaliation and destruction of more innocent lives, and, judging from Farrell's recurring theme about the character of Israelis in general and his gratuitous references to 'golems' and the 'skullcap crowd', I'm not exactly reassured that that is in fact 'all' he's saying. He's an intelligent guy who I believe has something more to offer here, and I agree with much of what he says, but he's also intelligent enough to know better than That, ok?

Re the subject at hand, this Gaza pullout is no doubt a diversionary tactic meant to draw attention away from the continuing colonization of the Westbank, but I doubt that anyone is really buying it outside the syncophantic North American media. The issue isn't going to go away so easily, even in Israel -particularly in Israel.

[ 31 July 2005: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged

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