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Author Topic: Hamas and the PA
rsfarrell
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Babbler # 7770

posted 17 July 2005 08:21 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
On Second Thought

By Danny Rubinstein

The time has come for those who favor the unilateral disengagement from Gaza to think again, because it may be that the entire issue is not worthwhile - and not for the ideological reasons that it is forbidden to uproot settlements or to give up parts of the homeland. The argument for second thoughts stems from the events of recent days, which raise fears that a unilateral withdrawal from Gaza is causing serious security damage to Israel.

The fact that a majority of the Palestinian public sees Israel's decision to withdraw as a sign of the victory of the intifada has long been known. It is hard to argue with this. Years of a peace process and negotiations between the Palestinians and Israeli governments, including Likud governments, have not led to Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. The idea of withdrawal entered the mind of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon only after suicide attacks, Qassam rockets and mortars.

Even if these attacks were not the reason why Sharon came up with the idea of disengagement, the Palestinians are certain that that is the case, and this has reinforced their belief that Israel only understands the language of terror attacks and violence. This belief will now become an absolute certainty - if Israel withdraws unilaterally under fire.

Those who are taking credit for the great victory of the withdrawal from Gaza, and with a great degree of justification, are the members of Hamas, which led the attacks and the terror campaign against Israel. The withdrawal will transfer large land assets in Gaza to the Palestinians, since Israeli settlements and security installations take up about 30 percent of the narrow, crowded Strip, in which every meter is worth a fortune. What will happen to these important and expensive assets? Who will receive them and decide what will be done with them? Hamas wants to be a partner in the division of the spoils. "We were partners in blood, and we want to be partners to the decisions," say Hamas spokesmen.

Until recently, the leaders of Hamas were untroubled in this regard. They had an agreement with Palestinian Authority Chair Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen), reached at the beginning of the year in Cairo, which included two main items: Hamas would join the cease-fire - the hudna or "calm" - and the PA would hold elections for the Palestinian parliament.

According to the results of the elections, which were supposed to take place yesterday, it will be possible to set a key to the balance of political power in the Palestinian community - and according to this key they will form a government, distribute jobs and, among other things, decide how the large land assets evacuated by Israel will be divided. In other words, which institutions and factories will be built on them, and for whose benefit: the Fatah faithful, the supporters of Hamas and others.

Hamas sees itself as having kept the agreement - having held its fire. Abu Mazen was the one who violated it. Fatah and its leadership under Abu Mazen decided to postpone the elections, without setting a new date. This means that the Palestinian government remains as it is, and that those who are currently in power - who are seen as corrupt by the Palestinian public - will do as they wish with the assets evacuated by Israel. They will not share with Hamas the fruits of the victory for which members of Hamas spilled their blood.

. . .[/quote]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 17 July 2005 10:09 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

Good article. Discusses many of the issues.
Thanks for that.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 17 July 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This reads like more justifications of the continuance of the occupation from the "middle ground" of Israeli thought, wherein it is always possible to talk about an end to occupation, but never ok to actually do it, because of one or another problem that is the fault of the Palestinians, never Israe, whose best intentions can never be in doubt.

A new argument among a myriad of arguements that are often contradictory, that I have heard over the years, but always end in the same conclusion, that Israel is the only responsible arbiter of Palestinian politics and it is not possible withdraw or to negotiate peace at this time:

quote:
"Out of the north an evil shall break forth upon all the inhabitants of the land" (Jer 1:14) is a verse every Israeli pupil learns by heart. This biblical truth has never been more true than these days: the Syrian President, in a major threat to the Jewish state, offers Israel to resume peace talks. A blatant crime against war itself. Israel, understandably, is forced to defend itself.

There are several convincing reasons why Israel should reject the peaceful Syrian hand. First of all, Syria should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. When Assad proved evil enough to accept this, Israel demanded that Syria stop it alleged support for "terrorism" (and accept the Israeli-American definition of terrorism, to include resistance to occupation). Fair enough: both sides, except the Israeli side, should come to the negotiation table without any preconditions. Imagine Syria demanding that Israel end its occupation, or just dismantle its death squads, as a precondition to resume peace talks.

Then we are told that president Assad is young and inexperienced. A problem indeed. A good solution would be to reject his offer for a few more decades of hostility, when all our "experts for Arab issues" will be able to claim safely that he is too old to change, and/or that his days are counted. Then we can wait for his successor, hopefully a young and inexperienced one.

A clear evidence for Assad "inexperience" are his manners. The Syrian president chose to convey his peaceful message to Israel in public. "There are covert diplomatic channels for such a message," official Israel says triumphantly. Indeed, how irresponsible of Assad. If he had conveyed his message confidentially, Israel could (1) again dismiss it as unserious, because only an open message preparing the Syrian public for the policy change would have proved Assad's real commitment; and/or (2) Leak the secret talks in order to stop them, just like it did recently with Libya. In fact, as even senior mainstream analyst Ze'ev Schiff observes, Israeli leaks are far from haphazard: "In most cases a leak relates to the start of contacts with some Arabs, and after the leak, the contacts are usually broken. There is scarcely any doubt that the leak is aimed at thwarting the contacts and even smearing those Israelis trying to nurture connections with the Arab side.[…] In many cases, this has succeeded. The Arab side is put off." (Ha'aretz, 16.1.04)


Why it might be wise to give up on Ha'aretz editorials.

My take: This amounts to Jewish Man's Burden, wherein we will keep the land because the tribes are not up to being responsible for it.

Infighting between Hamas and the PA over what happens to de-occupyied Palestinian land is none of your fucking business Mr. Rubinstein. What don't you get about the idea that you are deoccupying because the land is not yours to decide what to do with it, or who is to use it and for what?

[ 17 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
salaam
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posted 18 July 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for salaam     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Calling it "de-occupation" is misleading.

For Israel, removing their soldiers, means finding others to take over the job after them. All that the Palestinian residents can hope for is less prison-time, less toture, less taxes, and less unemployment, but nobody cares about them.
The last time the PA was given a chance they dissapointed everyone. At this point in time Hamas could give a more "legitimate" face to the occupation. But, after all the investment put in the PA, that alternative would make the US and their "peace-camp" look bad.

These games have been going on for years. Its like prisoners arguing about what colour to paint the prison wall. Getting distracted with this stuff will only lead to more frustration. It's not worth getting worked up about.


From: exile | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 18 July 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
True enough, there is always the potential for the Israeli government to save money by removing their staff from Camp Gaza.

Gaza was at one time a tourist hot spot on the mediteranean not unlike Alexandiria or Beriut. That is in the 1920's. The Palestinians of the region also one of the most educated as well a financially well off Arab groups. The utter destruction of Palestinians civil society, and its social and cultural institutions is one of the saddest results of Israeli attack upon them.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 July 2005 12:48 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
My twist on this is that I think Israel SHOULD continue to have a presence in Gaza. I think that they ought to 'fess up to what they've done and put a whole lot of time and effort into rebuilding the place into a hospitable den for both Jews and Arabs.

Oh shit, I forgot to take out my pink contacts again...

In the (predictable) absence of such magnanimity on the part of Israel, yeah, they should get the hell out of Dodge.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 July 2005 01:02 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Someone wants to stay in Gaza...

quote:
HE'S STAYING HERE: Jewish settler Avi Farhan, wanting to keep his seaside home when Israel quits the Gaza Strip, is looking into becoming a Palestinian. He said he is willing to be a test case for peace and take up Palestinian citizenship.

Anybody have more info?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 19 July 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Someone wants to stay in Gaza...

Anybody have more info?


No. I read that this morning. Such an ethical move could blow holes in the ideological edifices constituting this conflict.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 July 2005 01:28 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, I wonder how fast he'll want to keep Palestinian citizenship when the IDF blows up his house claiming it's a terrorist cell.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 19 July 2005 01:42 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Avi Farhan's story

quote:
Me and another 1 million Jews used to live in Libya. I came here when I was three years old. We were expelled. Some others were expelled from Morocco, Algeria, Tunis and all over. We left money, land and a house on the beach in Tripoli. I don't want my money and my dad's house, I just want to stay here.

I say if a new Palestinian state has educated people and it is democratic, it needs to change. I met [Mohammad] Dahlan four to five years ago in Eli Sinai in my fish restaurant.

I told him if you could give me assurances of peace, we could make something great from Ashkelon to the al-Arish, and it could be better than the French Riviera, but you have to make peace from the heart, not political peace.

He said: "You can stay here if you become a Palestinian settler." I told him, "You don't scare me with this talk. If you agree to this, I will get elected in the Legislative Council before you do - I have more friends than you in Gaza."


He's unable to make the logical leap that a person fighting on behalf of equality for Jews in Palestine should also fight for equality for Arabs in Israel. Cueball can speak more to his historical greivances than I can, but it seems that he feels 'owed' Arab land because of what happened to his family when he was three years old.

Why does he live in Gaza? Why was he the first (and last) Sinai settler? Because he's a bit kooky:

quote:
Why did you go to Sinai to start with? Why not Tel Aviv?

Because it is Eretz Israel (the Land of Israel). It's in the Torah. This land is ours from the Euphrates to the Nile, or as some people interpret it, to Wadi al-Arish. It's not me saying this - it's God. This is our land. Why didn't I go to Uganda, you might ask? Because 2000 years ago we were here. We kept praying "next year in Jerusalem", until we finally returned to Jerusalem. You have Makka and Medina.



From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 19 July 2005 01:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose it takes a strange person to want citizenship that amounts to an "open season" card for the IDF.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 23 July 2005 01:34 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought Syria was kind of 'north-east' of Israel. North can mean Turkey, the Ukraine or Russia for that matter.

Doesn't it say that Gog and Magog (Russia) will attack Israel or something???


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged

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