babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » A thoughtful article on Israeli/Palestinian demographics with criticism for all sides

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: A thoughtful article on Israeli/Palestinian demographics with criticism for all sides
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 08 July 2005 03:44 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Most intriguing about this debate is the largely-ignored fact that Arabs already constitute a majority among Israeli citizens. This is one of the best kept secrets in the annals of contemporary Zionism. If we add the Palestinian Arabs to the vast number of Jews who come from Morocco and other Arab countries, we can see that Arabs constitute a plurality of any ethnic group in the country. Obviously those Arab Jews (Mizrahim) hardly identify with Palestinian independence and tend to be among the most vociferous supporters of right-wing parties and fundamentalist religious groups. To paraphrase Gore Vidal, they are self-hating Arabs. Nevertheless, they eat the same food, listen to the same music, and have cultural affinities similar to Palestinian Arabs. The systematic attempt by dominant Ashkenazi culture to de-Arabize this community has succeeded ideologically, yet failed to obliterate their "oriental features".

Demographic nationalism: false assumptions and inevitable truths


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 08 July 2005 07:36 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is quite interesting.
From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 09 July 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Even radical critics of the population control policies advocated by the IMF and the World Bank have now abandoned this perspective in favor of a more realistic examination of unfettered fertility and family planning schemes.

How does the IMF suggest that governments deal with over population?

quote:
The consequences of high fertility, however, are devastating. In Israel today, the irrational fear of Arab birthrates has led right-wing and left-wing governments to import a huge number of gentiles (mostly Russians and other East Europeans) as well as putative Jews (Falashas and others)

Who are the Falashas?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 09 July 2005 01:49 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Falashas are Ethiopian Jews who emigrated to Palestine during the 1980s.

Why would Israel want to import Gentiles?

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6943

posted 09 July 2005 02:46 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Why would Israel want to import Gentiles?


I think it might be more accurate to say that they want to import people who are "Israeli-identified".

My understanding was that those Russians who emigrated usually had at least some slight ancestral claim to being Jewish, but the slightness of some of these claims was the subect of much derision among Israelis.

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


From: Asia | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 09 July 2005 04:14 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by voice of the damned:

I think it might be more accurate to say that they want to import people who are "Israeli-identified".

My understanding was that those Russians who emigrated usually had at least some slight ancestral claim to being Jewish, but the slightness of some of these claims was the subect of much derision among Israelis.

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]

[ 09 July 2005: Message edited by: voice of the damned ]


Very true. However, since they have also imported an estimated 200,000 foreign workers, who do not have the virtue of being "Israei identified," it might be simpler to describe their strategy as "Anybody but Palestinians (ABP)."


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 July 2005 06:04 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Part of the Peres/Rabin strategy, and the Peres economic vision, posed Israel at the center of a future Middle Eastern common market, and the Palestinians were to 'benefit' by being the work-a-day labour that the economic machine would rest on. Few people remember it but prior to 2000, there was groing integration economically and Jewish settlers were known to mingle cautiously in the markets.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 09 July 2005 06:07 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peres and Rabin were Neo-liberals.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 09 July 2005 07:35 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Part of the Peres/Rabin strategy, and the Peres economic vision, posed Israel at the center of a future Middle Eastern common market, and the Palestinians were to 'benefit' by being the work-a-day labour that the economic machine would rest on. Few people remember it but prior to 2000, there was groing integration economically and Jewish settlers were known to mingle cautiously in the markets.

Actually, it goes back further than that, to 1973, when Moshe Dayan decided to allow Palestinians to work in Israel without permits.

This open-door policy was coupled with measures designed to prevent independant economic development in the West Bank; refusing building permits; requiring and then deny permits to operate any sort of business; forcing Palestinians to buy from Israeli markets, etc.

The goal was twofold; to irreversibly integrate the two economies so as to advance de facto annexation; and to economically exploit the territories in classic colonial fashion, using them as sources of cheap labor and raw materials on the one hand, and captive markets for Israeli goods on the other.

Morris is good on this in Rightious Victims.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 10 July 2005 04:46 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure, but I think there is a whole economic (globalizing) agenda that goes along with Oslo that is not often discussed.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 11 July 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

Very true. However, since they have also imported an estimated 200,000 foreign workers, who do not have the virtue of being "Israei identified," it might be simpler to describe their strategy as "Anybody but Palestinians (ABP)."

Yeah. Mind you, they don't give those folks citizenship, do they? Actually, it's one way in which Israel is, perhaps ironically, quite similar to some other states in the region. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and I believe some of the smaller oil-rich emirates and whatnot, import foreign workers on a massive scale but deny them citizenship (often even if they're born in the country to foreign worker parents) and various benefits, and keep them much poorer than the actual citizens.
. . . Hmmm, come to that, doesn't Germany do similar things on a somewhat smaller relative scale? I know that at least until very recently, when Schroeder brought in some reforms, it was bleedin' impossible for an immigrant, even non-first-generation, to get citizenship. And I don't know just how far-reaching those reforms were. Meanwhile, the US does the same thing by employing illegal immigrants, who, being illegal, can be denied pretty much everything right down to basic protection under the law.

Geeze. Thinking about it, is there anyone halfway prosperous who doesn't import a disenfranchised underclass? The Israeli spin, though, is that they had an underclass living right next door (the Palestinians) and they had to fuck them up so bad they didn't trust them to come and work any more, so now they have to bring their underclass from farther afield.

I notice Canada itself is absent from my list. What do we do?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
historymove
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9851

posted 11 July 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for historymove     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The funny thing is, is that the Israelis realized the can't have it both ways.

They wanted to CONTINUE their occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem which rightfully belong to the Palestinians as the original inhabitants, but NOT give any political or legal rights to those Palestinians because then they would get voting rights and outnumber the Jewish population of Israel.

So, they can't annex the territory, but they want to continue to occupy it.

Now they realize they can't continue their illegal occupation, hence the Gaza withdrawal that is currently underway and the evacaution of SOME settlements in the West Bank (when it should be all of them).

The Palestinians are a demographic time bomb for Israel - and the Israelis have finally realized it.

Now, they are building a so-called "fence" (coined by pro-Israel groups in North America) when it is actually a 27 feet high cement wall to cordon of the Palestinians. In the process, they are purposely building the wall on Palestinian land, amounting to nothing less than an illegal land grab because that's the only way the Israeli's can hang onto some of the territories without causing a massive international outcry.

With our world attention focused on Iraq, international terrorism and problems in Africa, Israel continues it 'free-hand' policies in the occupied Palestinian lands. Where is the outrage?


From: Saskatchewan | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 14 July 2005 12:09 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah. Mind you, they don't give those folks citizenship, do they? Actually, it's one way in which Israel is, perhaps ironically, quite similar to some other states in the region. Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and I believe some of the smaller oil-rich emirates and whatnot, import foreign workers on a massive scale but deny them citizenship (often even if they're born in the country to foreign worker parents) and various benefits, and keep them much poorer than the actual citizens.


You can blame GLOBALISATION for this. This is happening all over the world not just in the countries you have just listed. The perfect way for any capitalist to have a sub-class of workers to use and exploit and make a profit off of.


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 14 July 2005 02:03 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is actually capable of insulating itself to a degree unprecedented except perhaps in the EU, from the ravages of globalization. Since whatever Israel wants from the USA, Israel gets, Israel can demand insulation from the WTO and insulation from American multinationals using WTO rules as a battering ram against regulations and taxes.

So no, globalization is not the true culprit.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 14 July 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
. . . Hmmm, come to that, doesn't Germany do similar things on a somewhat smaller relative scale?

Probably. Come to that, doesn't Canada?

quote:
I notice Canada itself is absent from my list. What do we do?

The same thing.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Close Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca