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Author Topic: Religious nut attacks Pride marchers in Jerusalem (no anti-semitism HERE, though!)
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 04:09 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Let's try this again...

Edited to remove references to Nazis, the holocaust, and the kitchen frigging sink, ad nauseum

[RE-edited to remove some Nazi stuff I missed first time.]

quote:
Originally posted by Yst:
On the heels of good news from Canada and Spain regarding the extension of marriage to same-sex couples in those countries, and following a great many terrific pride celebrations worldwide, sad news comes from Jerusalem

regarding Pride celebrations there:


quote:
What started off as a lively parade of nearly 5,000 Gay Pride activists quickly turned violent Thursday as three young marchers were stabbed by ultra-religious protestors of the parade.

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Not only that, but...

quote:
Almost 1,000 protestors lined the parade route. Bottles of urine and bags containing feces were hurled at marchers.

Police arrested a dozen members of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect when they attempted to block the street and stop the march.

Other protestors carried signs which read: "People with AIDS belong in hospitals" and "Homosexuality is a sickness."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How very nice...


quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Not only that, but...
"Almost 1,000 protestors lined the parade route. Bottles of urine and bags containing feces were hurled at marchers.

My buddy Jack had an interesting take on this aspect of the story:

quote:
Typical atavistic behavior.....When threatened, primates will fling shit at their "enemies" Such behavior is also seen among some mentally ill patients. Kinda gives ya pause when so-called "religious" types do it, huh? On second thought, maybe not


quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The protesters were disgusting. They should be ashamed of themselves.

quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
J'lem gay parade halted after protester stabs 3 marchers

It's important to recognize Jewish fundementalism for the destructive force it is. Like other racist, reactionary ideologies, it doesn't confine itself to dehumanizing one group of people, be they Palestinians or gays or secular Israelis. It is intolerent in a broad sense, and combined with unprecedented influence in Washington, an unmatched conventional arnsenal, and hundreds of nuclear weapons, Israel's descent into fundementalism is a concern for the entire world. [ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Yes all fundamentalists and all acts of senseless violence against anyone MUST be condemned...but otherwise I take issue with your "point" of "Israel's descent into fundamentalism." FYI Israelis are largely secular. Most are appalled by religious influence over the state(which unfortunately exists). What I take issue with is your post as it is deliberately inflammatory, ill-informed (have you ever been to Israel??) and finally to hold Israel to a double standard is hypocritical. Any blemish is (for you) an example of the evil empire of a country gone to hell in a hand-basket.

PS
I don't see you championing the cause of secular Iranians who suffer under the worst fundamentalist regime soon to armed with nuclear weapans.

(I don't know why I am bothering)

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
Yes, the ultra-orthodox are definitely a minority in Israel and they piss off a lot of Israelis (and not only the utterly secular). The shit-throwing is the lot of any mainstream Israeli woman who wanders into a Haredi neighbourhood on the Sabbath wearing "immodest" dress.

I can't help wondering what Sigmund would have had to say about that behaviour!


quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Orthodox rabbis discuss homosexuality

quote:
Greenberg believes the problem of homophobia stems from gender issues. "Homophobia is a phenomenon that exists in any society where there is a clear differentiation between the functions of men and women," he said. "Until Orthodoxy deals with the question of the status of women, this problem will not be solved. But even if halakha itself does not change, straight people in the Orthodox community can still show understanding and compassion for those who are different from themselves. One can be ultra-Orthodox and still believe that homosexuality is between a person and God."


quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Rabbi Greenberg who is an orthodox Rabbi dmeonstrates admiarbale tolerance given orthodoxy's views on homosexuality.
[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Yabbut "admirable tolerance" is not the same as acceptance. There is obviously a ways to travel, yet...

quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
I agree however given right wing religious orthodoxy it sure surprised me!

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Formal charges laid in Jerusalem Gay Pride stabbings

quote:The man who stabbed three people during last week's gay Pride parade in Jerusalem was formally charged Tuesday with three counts of attempted murder.

Shai Schlissel, a member of an extreme Orthodox sect made a brief court appearance in Jerusalem where the charges were read.

During questioning by police Schlissel said that he had been sent to the parade as an emissary of God to kill gays and to "ensure that such an abomination [as the parade] would not take place in Israel."


[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 06 July 2005 10:48 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks Hephestation for trying to get us back on track. It seems to me that while Israel has a way to go in dealing with its Gay and Lesbian community it is light years ahead of any other state in the middle east as well as other western nations. The acts of a few religious extremists should not be held against the entire state or people. The fact that homosexuality is being addressed, that there have been gay pride parades in israel etc is proof of this.

In my opinion many here look for ways to present Israel ONLY in a dark and negative light. They want to see the cup as half empty because it suits a political agenda that deligitimizes Israel.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 10:59 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for addressing the thread topic.

What I'd *like* to see on this thread is a discussion of the LGBT community in Israel, and surrounding area (Israelis and Palestinians), problems they face, religious issues, etc. *without* it turning into a Jewish-Arab (OR friggin' Nazi!) brawl.

It would be nice if people could contribute links, info, etc. without denigrating other babblers, too. If you want to start a fight, go do it in a different thread, pleeeeeeeease!

Sank Q.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 06 July 2005 12:34 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ohara, I don't think Heph started this thread to denigrate Israel. The problem is the intolerant Haredi and the disproportionate weight they wield in the country, in relation to their numbers.

I kept thinking about my "Freudian" comment and the fact that the Haredi were dumping shit and piss on mostly Jewish people - sadly, the kind of act that was common among anti-semites. Avoiding any comments about the leadup to the Holocaust, I think back to Freud when he was a lad and an anti-semite made his dad Jakob Freud walk in the filthy gutter (horses back then...) instead of on the sidewalk; evidently this humiliation strongly impressed young Sigmund.

I hope, Heph, that my musing is not too close to a comment on anti-semitism, but it does strike me as very sad that the Haredi attacked other Jews (here LGBT people, and frequently "immodestly-dressed" Israeli women) in ways long familiar among anti-semites.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Thanks Hephestation for trying to get us back on track. It seems to me that while Israel has a way to go in dealing with its Gay and Lesbian community it is light years ahead of any other state in the middle east as well as other western nations. The acts of a few religious extremists should not be held against the entire state or people. The fact that homosexuality is being addressed, that there have been gay pride parades in israel etc is proof of this.

In my opinion many here look for ways to present Israel ONLY in a dark and negative light. They want to see the cup as half empty because it suits a political agenda that deligitimizes Israel.


You know. When Heph started the original thread on this topic, I entered in with some comment that reflected on these events contextualized in the comparison to other countries in the Middle East. He asked me to bugger off and I did.

Hephastion has been quite clear and good on this issue, also posting information on Saudi crimes against gay men their. Now Heph has started another thread legitimately critcizing the behaviour of some persons in Israel. This is not the time to enter into cultural comparison between Israel and other countries of the Middle East, which reflect well on Israel because others may be forced to remind you that Israel is not just a part of the Middle East and is in fact part of the world as a whole, and these events certainly do not bare up well in comparison to the behviour of people in say Sweden.

Areil Sharon is also somewhat better that Ida Amin Dada, what of it?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 July 2005 07:25 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
In the true spirit of this thread I thought this site may shed some needed light on Gay life in Israel

Gay life in Israel

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 06 July 2005 07:27 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And here is what a progressive jewish group is doing to try and improve lives for LGBT in Israel.

NIF


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Crippled_Newsie
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7024

posted 08 July 2005 04:22 AM      Profile for Crippled_Newsie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
‘I acted in God’s name’

quote:
JERUSALEM – An ultra-Orthodox man suspected of stabbing three people during Jerusalem’s Gay Pride Parade last week [also]says...

“I came to murder on behalf of God. We can’t have such abomination in the country,” Yishai Shlisel said during his interrogation.

On Tuesday, Shlisel was indicted on three counts of attempted murder at the Jerusalem District Court.



From: It's all about the thumpa thumpa. | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 08 July 2005 11:38 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh boy. Just like those idiots that shoot abortion clinic doctors.
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 08 July 2005 07:10 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I came to murder on behalf of God.

Remember the old days, when God used to take care of his own business?

He wouldn't send some psycho homicidal doofus to do his work; he'd send a flood, or a plague of locusts or just turn folks into pillars of salt.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 08 July 2005 07:17 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I came to murder on behalf of God.

Q: Who gets orders to murder from God?

A: The Son of Sam with dyslexia.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9723

posted 08 July 2005 07:32 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here are two interesting pieces of media regarding homophobia and Judaism, or, in a larger context, homophobia and religious extremism.

The first is a movie, which I previously mentioned in ...that other thread...the thread that dares not speak its name... called "Trembling Before G-d"; an interesting take on gay and lesbian Orthodox Jews trying to be involved in their communities (and having to face a lot of prejudice in return). I would also suggest checking out the book "What the Bible Really says about Homosexuality", by Daniel A.
Helminiak.

Here's a link for the book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-items/-/096247519X/0/101/1/none/purchase/ref%3Dpd%5Fsxp%5Fr0/002-9423456-6631214

The most frustrating aspect of this for me, as a Jewish person and as somebody who would like to think that religion can actually be about open-ness and community-building, is that these hateful individuals consistently use God, or their respective religious documents, to justify actions which run contrary to the spirit of religion (I'd like to think). Because, you know, I thought religion was supposed to be about love, and understanding, and peace, and those sorts of things. Not bigotry, and hate, and throwing urine on people you don't like. I don't remember the section of the Torah which mentions "thou shalt throw a bunch of crap on people who art cooler than thou, and thus thou art jealous". I guess I missed that part...


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 21 July 2005 12:50 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I came to murder on behalf of God


How about locking these people up in an insane assylum and getting them the proper treatment that they need to live normal lives again.


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged

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