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Author Topic: This makes me sad
Coyote
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posted 05 July 2005 07:44 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Haaretz:
quote:
Shooting in the air, dozens of masked gunmen cut short a rock concert by a popular Palestinian singer in the West Bank city of Nablus on Tuesday night [. . .]
The concert was the opening of a shopping festival meant to bring a bit of normalcy to the largest city in the West Bank, hard hit by army operations and curfews.

quote:
"I am depressed," said concert-goer Qassem Ewais, 21, who traveled around army roadblocks from the West Bank town of Qalqiliya. "I came to dance
and sing and suddenly gunmen surrounded the university. ... These people are criminals. They are liars."

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 06 July 2005 01:30 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of which these gunemn are a part, don't seem to like the fact that Palestinians were trying to celebrate while the West Bank remains under milliatary occupation. I don't blame them.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 July 2005 01:32 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Of which are they apart, Al Aqsa or Hamas?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 July 2005 01:40 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First, to Cueball:

The article was not clear on that point; it could be that they were both there? I dunno.

quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
Well, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of which these gunemn are a part, don't seem to like the fact that Palestinians were trying to celebrate while the West Bank remains under milliatary occupation. I don't blame them.
Are you bloody kidding? People have the right not to have their whole lives dictated to them by armed militias (and you damn well know where I stand on the occupation so don't even go there with me); they also have the right not to make every damn minute of their life "the struggle".

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Cueball
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posted 06 July 2005 01:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well almost certainly Al Aqsa, given where it is but I was really trying to acertain wether or not LeftTurn knows that they are different. It could even just be random assholes with guns.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Coyote
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posted 06 July 2005 01:57 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hamas has a prescence in Tulkarem, which is not far away (as the crow flies).
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Cueball
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posted 06 July 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The quoted student says they are "liars." What is the translation on that. It seems to me to be a weird tanslation given the circumstance. Is it some word in Arabic that has a multiple inlflection of meaning?
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Coyote
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posted 06 July 2005 02:01 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Er, Keif halak? That's as far as my Arabic goes. Oh, feesh mooshkala.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 06 July 2005 02:02 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To any Arab speakers, I am sorry for what I just did to your language. Wow.
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lagatta
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posted 06 July 2005 05:44 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Liars" sounds like a bad translation. "Hypocrites" would make more sense. It would be good to find the story in the Arabic; I could ask a friend from that area (Palestine, Lebanon, Syria...).

In any case it is a shame, people have to find some pleasure in life under difficult circumstances. (Bruce Cockburn's song "Lovers in a dangerous time" reminds us of that). I suspect Hamas, for religious/ideological reasons, wouldn't want young people to party and dance under any circumstances.

quote:
About 20 people who said they were members of Hamas held signs reading, "Don't dance on our blood."

I know people from many parts of the world who have lived under horrific dictatorships, in civil wars and under military occupations. They tried to eke some pleasure out of life so as not to go mad or lose their humanity.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Doug
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posted 06 July 2005 09:18 AM      Profile for Doug   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
Well, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of which these gunemn are a part, don't seem to like the fact that Palestinians were trying to celebrate while the West Bank remains under milliatary occupation. I don't blame them.

I do. What the hell is wrong with trying to make the best of the situation and just enjoying yourself for a few hours with a concert?


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Cueball
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posted 06 July 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by lagatta:
"Liars" sounds like a bad translation. "Hypocrites" would make more sense. It would be good to find the story in the Arabic; I could ask a friend from that area (Palestine, Lebanon, Syria...).

I was thinking that word for liar and hypocrite might be the same word, with its meaning nuanced in speech through context.


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Albion1
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posted 07 July 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Are you bloody kidding? People have the right not to have their whole lives dictated to them by armed militias (and you damn well know where I stand on the occupation so don't even go there with me); they also have the right not to make every damn minute of their life "the struggle".

And what would you do if you were living in an occupied country Coyote? How do you think people gain independance? By dedicating every minute of their lives to the struggle. Thats how.

If you are in an occupied country it is your DUTY as well as your RIGHT to resist the occupiers in any way shape or form.

IF YOU ATTEND CONCERTS AND PARTIES SANCTIONED BY THE OCCUPIER, THEN YOU ARE SANCTIONING THEIR OCCUPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2005 12:36 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
If you are in an occupied country it is your DUTY as well as your RIGHT to resist the occupiers in any way shape or form.

So then choose not to attend.

Don't choose to attend, armed with a gun, to try and force others to share your viewpoint.

Note to self: if we ever have a big babble party, make sure Albion1 has no idea where it's being held.


From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
voice of the damned
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posted 07 July 2005 01:08 PM      Profile for voice of the damned     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
IF YOU ATTEND CONCERTS AND PARTIES SANCTIONED BY THE OCCUPIER, THEN YOU ARE SANCTIONING THEIR OCCUPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!


How exactly was this "sanctioned by the occupier"? Was Ariel Sharon the emcee? Talk about playing to a tough crowd.

Sarcasm aside: okay, yes, if something takes place under an occupation, and the occupier doesn't shut it down, then in a sense it is sanctioned by the occupier. But come on. By that logic, any Frenchman who had patronized a cafe in Occupied Paris circa 1943 was sanctioning the occupation, since the Nazis had allowed the cafe to remain open.


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Coyote
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posted 07 July 2005 01:19 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I was going to post something rather snarkish to Albion1 relating to personal experience, but I thought better of it because I think this is more a matter of principle than one-upmanship.

Nothing is as frightening as a totalizing society. Nothing. If your solidarity is with the Palestinian struggle for freedom, one must remember that "freedom" is the objective and not "struggle"; and that freedom includes the right to lay down the struggle for a moment, to take a breath, to dance and sing and smile a moment. In some ways, to do such things in the face of occupation is the most compelling act of resistance possible: You occupy us, but you will not define us.

Moreover, the notion of unaccountable militias determining what may be done or not done by the broader society is a dangerous and frightening notion.

Let there be bread, but roses also.


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Mr. Magoo
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posted 07 July 2005 02:26 PM      Profile for Mr. Magoo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'll give you a dollar if you say the snarkish thing. Two dollars if you SAY IT IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS AND USE MORE EXCLAMATION POINTS THAN MR. REBELLION DID!!!!!!
From: ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°`°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø,¸_¸,ø¤°°¤ø, | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
Well, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of which these gunemn are a part, don't seem to like the fact that Palestinians were trying to celebrate while the West Bank remains under milliatary occupation. I don't blame them.

Three cheers for a totalitarian state!

I am not surprised at Hamas and the AAMB's reaction. If normalacy ever catches on they are out of business.


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Cueball
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posted 07 July 2005 03:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I am still trying to understand why people here write about Al Aqsa and Hamas as if they are linked organizations that do joint operations. If both groups showed up at the event armed and with similar intent to disrupt the perfromance there might very well have been a gunfight between them.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 03:20 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I am still trying to understand why people here write about Al Aqsa and Hamas as if they are linked organizations that do joint operations. If both groups showed up at the event armed and with similar intent to disrupt the perfromance there might very well have been a gunfight between them.

Sounds like American style gang warfare.

from Gang Life In Los Angeles:

[I took the picture out because it was causing major sidescroll. Click the link to get to it. - Michelle]

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


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Cueball
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posted 07 July 2005 03:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well that is a pretty picture and all but there are differences between the organizations, like one is a religious group, and the other is not. Some people think that is a small thing, others do not.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 07 July 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I am still trying to understand why people here write about Al Aqsa and Hamas as if they are linked organizations that do joint operations. If both groups showed up at the event armed and with similar intent to disrupt the perfromance there might very well have been a gunfight between them.

Well, that depends on the situation, Cueball. They have co-ordinated attacks in the past.

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rsfarrell
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posted 07 July 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Left Turn:
Well, Hamas and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, of which these gunemn are a part, don't seem to like the fact that Palestinians were trying to celebrate while the West Bank remains under milliatary occupation. I don't blame them.

I understand the reflexive desire to believe in the Palestinian resistence, but I'm afraid this is a case in which decades of oppression and orchestraed economic disaster have coroded the bonds of Palestinian society and given birth to a culture of thuggry, in which young men who have never known peace or freedom, who have been brutalized and humilated their entire lives, fail to reach the high moral and social loyalty that allows a rebel movement to arm its young men without society tearing itself apart.


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rsfarrell
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posted 07 July 2005 04:56 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
According to the article Al-Asqa did the shooting. All Hamas did was hold up some signs. I would have been surprised to read different. Hamas is a highly disciplined organization that values Palestinian unity. This would be a little crude for them.

As for "sanctioning the occupation"; Fuck you. You do not live there, I do not live there, nobody on this board lives there. They have been under military occupation for 38 years. That is, for most of them, they have been under occupation for their entire lives. You think you have a right to judge them because they went to a rock concert? You've got to be kidding me. People have to live. They have to keep themselves sane. They are human beings, not symbols of some abstact struggle. You are going to sit across an ocean in peace and safety and call that choice collaboration? You've got to be kidding me.


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Rufus Polson
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posted 07 July 2005 05:19 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Albion1:

IF YOU ATTEND CONCERTS AND PARTIES SANCTIONED BY THE OCCUPIER, THEN YOU ARE SANCTIONING THEIR OCCUPATION!!!!!!!!!!!!

"If I can't dance, I want no part of your revolution"


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scooter
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posted 07 July 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for scooter     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well that is a pretty picture and all but there are differences between the organizations, like one is a religious group, and the other is not. Some people think that is a small thing, others do not.

Neither group has anything to do with religion. Saying so is an insult to Islam.

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rsfarrell
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posted 07 July 2005 05:52 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Neither group has anything to do with religion. Saying so is an insult to Islam.

Hamas is a religious organization and in many ways a credit to Islam. You are probably thinking of the actions of Hamas' armed wing, which have in some cases targeted civilians. Targeting civilians is wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that Hamas is a self-proclaimed Islamic organization. It would be more accurate and fair to say that the actions of Hamas are sometimes those of bad Muslims, rather than to say they are not Muslims.


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Cueball
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posted 08 July 2005 01:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by scooter:

Neither group has anything to do with religion. Saying so is an insult to Islam.

What gave you the right to determine what is and is not Islamic? Are you Muslim? Hamas most certainly is an Islamic organization and I have never met a Muslim who has said they are not. I am no big fan, but it seems to me that the way we sometimes impart to ourselves the right to determine what is and is not 'correct,' not only within our own culture but in the cultures of others, is the height of cultural arroganance.

I think it is likely that if you are not a Muslim, your asserting that Hamas is not Islamic would be interpreted as an Insult to islam. After all it is explicit in the Qu'ran that determining religious piety is the domain of god and not men and women. In most cases a Muslim will say, 'if you say you are a Muslim, you are, and it is not for me to judge you on that.'


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 13 July 2005 08:09 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ho boy oh boy oh boy. Look at ALL the responses that I got. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough. Even though I am half way around the world let me add further clarification.

-------------

Suppose you don't like the fact that China is occupying your country (as a matter of fact China is occupying TIBET) then you BOYCOTT China. This means that any goods/services that come out of China you do not buy. You do not invest in this country whatsoever.

If the Chinese government or any parties that are sympathetic to the Chinese government is sponsoring a party/event/gathering then you BOYCOTT it as well. It doesn't matter how much you like to dance or get drunk. If you are truely serious about ending the Chinese occupation of Tibet then you do not attend.

If, however, there is a party/event/gathering that is NOT sponsored nor sympathetic to the Chinese government that is happening and you want to attend, THAT IS DIFFERENT!

GET THE POINT??? This is what I was origionally talking about!!!

One cannot speak out about the evils of the Chinese occupation, say that they want to make a difference then go and buy goods that are made in China. If you do so, then you are giving money to the companies that are in China and thus tax monies will go to the Chinese government. It is the same in any country that has occupied another nation or people.

This is what I origionally meant.


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Hephaestion
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posted 14 July 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Palestinian national poet lashes out at militants trying to restrict the arts

quote:
RAMALLAH,
West Bank (AP) - It's been a hot summer on the Palestinian arts scene: gunmen broke up the concert of a popular West Bank singer after he refused to limit his repertoire to political songs, and a Hamas-run town banned a music festival to prevent mingling of the sexes.

Now, Palestinian national poet Mahmoud Darwish is striking back, saying fanatics have no right to deprive Palestinians of beauty in their lives. "There are Taliban-type elements in our society, and this is a very dangerous sign," Darwish told a gathering of artists and intellectuals this week.

It's not just an argument over artistic freedom, but over whether a future Palestinian state will be a theocracy or a pluralistic democracy.

Compared to other Arab societies, the Palestinians were once largely secular and tolerant of western customs, even with Islam as the majority religion. Many Palestinians have strong ties with the West, including relatives living abroad or years spent studying in foreign universities.

However, more than four years of Israeli-Palestinian fighting have led some Palestinians to seek solace in religion or return to tradition, also a reflection of a regional trend.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged

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