babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » And as the celebrations continue elsewhere...

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: And as the celebrations continue elsewhere...
Yst
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9749

posted 30 June 2005 10:24 PM      Profile for Yst     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
On the heels of good news from Canada and Spain regarding the extension of marriage to same-sex couples in those countries, and following a great many terrific pride celebrations worldwide, sad news comes from Jerusalem regarding Pride celebrations there:

quote:
What started off as a lively parade of nearly 5,000 Gay Pride activists quickly turned violent Thursday as three young marchers were stabbed by ultra-religious protestors of the parade.

From: State of Genderfuck | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 30 June 2005 11:43 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Not only that, but...

quote:
Almost 1,000 protestors lined the parade route. Bottles of urine and bags containing feces were hurled at marchers.

Police arrested a dozen members of an ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect when they attempted to block the street and stop the march.

Other protestors carried signs which read: "People with AIDS belong in hospitals" and "Homosexuality is a sickness."


How very nice...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 30 June 2005 11:49 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes... well... you know... an Island of democracy and hope and tollerance in a region of backwardness and reaction.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 12:00 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thats true Cueball. Hey out of curiosity, how did the Gay Pride parade do In Damascus and Cairo?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 12:13 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'd imagine not very well, Macabee. Have gay people now become part of your rhetorical arsenal? If so, would you mind me lobbing progressive jew-bombs at St. Peters?

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 12:17 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cueball, Macabee... not every G.D. thing in the Middle East is an Arab-Israeli dichotomy, y'know. There are 'phobes in *every* country.

Stop it, both of you.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 12:18 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
I'd imagine not very well, Macabee. Have gay people now become part of your rhetorical arsenal? If so, would you mind me lobbing progressive jew-bombs at St. Peters?

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


Hinterland I have no idea what you are Babbling about. Check some of the threads dealing with SSM and Gay and Lesbian issues. I think you will find that I have always supported Gay issues here on Babble.

Now what the hell are "progressive
jew-bombs?

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 12:22 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Cueball, Macabee... not every G.D. thing in the Middle East is an Arab-Israeli dichotomy, y'know. There are 'phobes in *every* country.

Stop it, both of you.



Well. I am sorry. I have been good on these threads in the past and avoided the dichotomy of which you speak, but then... I guess... I couldn't resist. Sorry.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 12:24 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Heph I have no idea what you are Babbling about. Check some of the threads dealing with SSM and Gay and Lesbian issues. I think you will find that I have always supported Gay issues here on Babble.

Now what the hell are "progressive
jew-bombs?


Heph and Hinterland are two seperate posters. I know it seems that we all meld into one giant indistinguishable anti-semitic blob, but we are all different.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Now what the hell are "progressive
jew-bombs?

The hell if I know. Except something "unformed" to shame the Vatican with. It'd be nice to wield a kind of weapon against the Vatican, to highlight utter hypocrisy and inhumanity, the way some people do with the easy weapon of gays.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 July 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Bolivian Gays don't have an easy time either... The same is true in several Latin American countries, even some with nominally progressive governments. (Brazil, Argentina...) There are no longer anti-gay laws, but the macho heterosexist police act as a law unto themselves and persecute gay people (especially transgendered or "swishy" people) says an Argentinian lesbian friend.

As for the Middle East, once again I think the major protests are in countries with some measure of democratic rights but where the laws are not fully respected. Syria is a very tight military - or single-party - dictatorship despite some superficial loosening up. Remember that this was not an "Islamist" regime, but a secular military regime, as in Iraq.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 03:56 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Not only that, but...
"Almost 1,000 protestors lined the parade route. Bottles of urine and bags containing feces were hurled at marchers.

My buddy Jack had an interesting take on this aspect of the story:

quote:
Typical atavistic behavior.....When threatened, primates will fling shit at their "enemies" Such behavior is also seen among some mentally ill patients. Kinda gives ya pause when so-called "religious" types do it, huh? On second thought, maybe not

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 09:10 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The protesters were disgusting. They should be ashamed of themselves. However the term "jew-bombs" smacks of anti-Semitism and it should be removed.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 10:13 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I see Heph so you feel the term is OK?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 01 July 2005 12:12 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, your obtuseness broke the meter.

The point is, you actually didn't first condemn the idiots throwing human waste, and stabbing marchers. Instead, what you did first, was as usual, instinctively bring up some Arab country as though that made your case that people in Israel acting like prize idiots was OK with you because they were Israeli.

Only later did you find it within you to condemn a bunch of assholes.

Now I know where your priorities really lie: if you can use anything in your obtuse quest to praise Israel by bringing up comparisons to countries that come in dead last on any gauge you want (except maybe GDP per capita thanks to geological accidents), you will. Even if it means you denigrate the struggles of the most marginalized people and overlook the activities of right-wing religious extremists.

Religion can stop a working mind like little else I've seen and this spate of incidents is more proof, as if I needed it, that my anti-religious bias is not without foundation.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That is not completely fair, Macabee was reacting to my interlocution.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 01:19 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Macabee, your obtuseness broke the meter.

The point is, you actually didn't first condemn the idiots throwing human waste, and stabbing marchers. Instead, what you did first, was as usual, instinctively bring up some Arab country as though that made your case that people in Israel acting like prize idiots was OK with you because they were Israeli.

Only later did you find it within you to condemn a bunch of assholes.

Now I know where your priorities really lie: if you can use anything in your obtuse quest to praise Israel by bringing up comparisons to countries that come in dead last on any gauge you want (except maybe GDP per capita thanks to geological accidents), you will. Even if it means you denigrate the struggles of the most marginalized people and overlook the activities of right-wing religious extremists.

Religion can stop a working mind like little else I've seen and this spate of incidents is more proof, as if I needed it, that my anti-religious bias is not without foundation.



I can't get over what a twit you can be. First of all I had no idea what the term even related to. Once I read it I was appaled at both the demonstrators and the anti-Semitic slogan that followed.

Conway your distatsetful targeting of me knows no bounds. But alas I guess you just dont get out much.

Forgive me folks one can put up with only so much drivel before one also responds.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 01 July 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
J'lem gay parade halted after protester stabs 3 marchers

It's important to recognize Jewish fundementalism for the destructive force it is. Like other racist, reactionary ideologies, it doesn't confine itself to dehumanizing one group of people, be they Palestinians or gays or secular Israelis. It is intolerent in a broad sense, and combined with unprecedented influence in Washington, an unmatched conventional arnsenal, and hundreds of nuclear weapons, Israel's descent into fundementalism is a concern for the entire world. That is why it matters more than Brazil.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 04:34 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
J'lem gay parade halted after protester stabs 3 marchers

It's important to recognize Jewish fundamentalism for the destructive force it is. Like other racist, reactionary ideologies, it doesn't confine itself to dehumanizing one group of people, be they Palestinians or gays or secular Israelis. It is intolerant in a broad sense, and combined with unprecedented influence in Washington, an unmatched conventional arnsenal, and hundreds of nuclear weapons, Israel's descent into fundementalism is a concern for the entire world. That is why it matters more than Brazil.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


Yes all fundamentalists and all acts of senseless violence against anyone MUST be condemned...but otherwise I take issue with your "point" of "Israel's descent into fundamentalism." FYI Israelis are largely secular. Most are appalled by religious influence over the state(which unfortunately exists). What I take issue with is your post as it is deliberately inflammatory, ill-informed (have you ever been to Israel??) and finally to hold Israel to a double standard is hypocritical. Any blemish is (for you) an example of the evil empire of a country gone to hell in a hand-basket.

PS
I don't see you championing the cause of secular Iranians who suffer under the worst fundamentalist regime soon to armed with nuclear weapans.

(I don't know why I am bothering)

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 July 2005 04:45 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, the ultra-orthodox are definitely a minority in Israel and they piss off a lot of Israelis (and not only the utterly secular). The shit-throwing is the lot of any mainstream Israeli woman who wanders into a Haredi neighbourhood on the Sabbath wearing "immodest" dress.

I can't help wondering what Sigmund would have had to say about that behaviour!

The Middle-East forum is no place to discuss Brazil, but Brazil is a hugely important and influential country. The left is so sorely disappointed in the Lula government as it was such a hope for the workers' and progressive movements throughout the Americas.

As for the "jew-bomb" comment, I thought it was just inane (and far beneath the usual posting aplomb of its author) but it bears no comparison to the serious case of anti-semitism facing us here and now; lawyer Guy Bertrand's accusations about a "parallel" judicial system.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes Peech I know its frustrating especially when its clear farrel has no concept of Israeli secular society. But of course his agenda is to propagandize Israel as evil.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 04:51 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for the "jew-bomb" comment, I thought it was just inane (and far beneath the usual posting aplomb of its author) but it bears no comparison to the serious case of anti-semitism facing us here and now; lawyer Guy Bertrand's accusations about a "parallel" judicial system.

Very inane. That's what I was going for.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 01 July 2005 05:16 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Maybe we should start up an "inane" thread, but I'd be inclined to do that either in banter or "out and about", not "The Middle East".

"Hot enough fer you?"

" 'fait chaud, hein?"

Renzo is lying on the floor. I have to water my plants...


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I thought all threads here were inane?

(just joking)

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
*sigh*

In an EFFORT to get this thread back on track...

Orthodox rabbis discuss homosexuality

quote:
Greenberg believes the problem of homophobia stems from gender issues. "Homophobia is a phenomenon that exists in any society where there is a clear differentiation between the functions of men and women," he said. "Until Orthodoxy deals with the question of the status of women, this problem will not be solved. But even if halakha itself does not change, straight people in the Orthodox community can still show understanding and compassion for those who are different from themselves. One can be ultra-Orthodox and still believe that homosexuality is between a person and God."

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 06:37 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Rabbi Greenberg who is an orthodox Rabbi dmeonstrates admiarbale tolerance given orthodoxy's views on homosexuality.

BTW you also wouldnt likely hear similar views from other non-Jewish Orthodox clergy

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 06:42 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yabbut "admirable tolerance" is not the same as acceptance. There is obviously a ways to travel, yet...
From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 01 July 2005 06:49 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
BTW you also wouldnt likely hear similar views from other non-Jewish Orthodox clergy

I've never once said anything about some of the things you have said. But this is one of the stupidist, most idiotic and foolish thing I've seen. Could you be anymore willfully blind? I doubt it.


From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 06:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry double post

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 06:52 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grant I R:

I've never once said anything about some of the things you have said. But this is one of the stupidist, most idiotic and foolish thing I've seen. Could you be anymore willfully blind? I doubt it.


You will forgive me if I have no idea what you are blathering about. I dont know you, never responded to you, responded to the "About" article. Who are you anyway?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 06:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Yabbut "admirable tolerance" is not the same as acceptance. There is obviously a ways to travel, yet...
I agree however given right wing religious orthodoxy it sure surprised me!

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Bookish Agrarian
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7538

posted 01 July 2005 06:59 PM      Profile for Bookish Agrarian   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The use of other non-Jewish Orthodox clergy is ridiculous. Beyond your pre-occupations what does the religion of the Orthodox have to do with anything. It is gratutious and borders on offensive.
From: Home of this year's IPM | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 01 July 2005 07:16 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Grant I R:
The use of other non-Jewish Orthodox clergy is ridiculous. Beyond your pre-occupations what does the religion of the Orthodox have to do with anything. It is gratutious and borders on offensive.
Clearly you know little about orthodoxy. In Judaism as in many other faiths, the right wing of the faith (usually referred to as the orthodox) reject what they refer to as the Gay and Lesabian lifestyle. They see it as contrary to the bible. The more liberal elements of Judaism (and other western faiths) accept and in the case for example of the Liberal Rabbis group of Canada which intervened on behalf of SSM in the Supreme Court, will perform such marriages. You dont have to apologize but I hope this is a bit of a lesson.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 01 July 2005 11:26 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Yes all fundamentalists and all acts of senseless violence against anyone MUST be condemned...but otherwise I take issue with your "point" of "Israel's descent into fundamentalism." FYI Israelis are largely secular. Most are appalled by religious influence over the state(which unfortunately exists). What I take issue with is your post as it is deliberately inflammatory, ill-informed (have you ever been to Israel??) and finally to hold Israel to a double standard is hypocritical. Any blemish is (for you) an example of the evil empire of a country gone to hell in a hand-basket.

PS
I don't see you championing the cause of secular Iranians who suffer under the worst fundamentalist regime soon to armed with nuclear weapans.

(I don't know why I am bothering)

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Of course it is in your interests to downplay Israel's rapid slide into fundementalism. Sure most Israelis aren't fundementalists. And most Germans didn't vote for Hitler. The real question is who calls the shots at the end of the day, and in Israel, the agenda is increasingly set by the fundementalists, who are more powerful and more radical with each passing year.

Now they are lynching people.

For years knee-jerk apologists for Israeli apartheid tried to pretend that the settlers were sweet, cuddly innocents persecuted by anti-Semitic Palestinians, except for a tiny fringe element. That lie has pretty much fallen apart now that they've turned their hate, in part, onto other Jews. Now you want to sell the idea the Jewish fundementalists are a tiny fringe element. They aren't. And in ten years, as smart secular people leave and the ultra-Orothdox continue to go forth a multiply, they will be more powerful than ever. If you don't believe me, wait and see.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 02 July 2005 12:17 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

With respect, I don't agree. There is a movement in Israel to get rid of or minimize the religious and certainly fundamentalist influence in Israel. I agree it is a dilemma. Israel was founded as a Jewish state by and often led by agnostics ( BTW Golda Meir was a non observant Jew) to preserve Jews. By giving the religious element any power it became a catch 22. Today people are tired of requiring religious approval for marriage, divorce, birth and death. There is much resistance. Israel is on of the only proportional democracies in the world. But at the same time that formula gives marginal parties (like th religious right) more power than they would have in any other regime.
Lately the religious right has become more vocal...perhaps out of fear. Fear of a growing swell of people who no lounge want the influence, no longer want to serve in the IDF if it means enforcing the occupation. So again, with great respect I think the reverse is true. The settlers will ultimately lose territory and power, less zealots from abroad will come (no more free ride) and the religious right will be less influential. The problem of religious fundamentalism is a world wide one grown out of fear. For example USA (your own) is led by a zealot, Iran by a 6th century mentality fundamentalist regime responsible for poverty, abuses of rights and overpopulation, Sudan, and on and on. I don't hear much of an outcry about these regimes. It's this double standard that I have problems with. (and BTW I don't have any "interests".)

I do take issue with the use of comparatives of Nazi Germany with Israel see my last post on:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=001324

and also:

http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_040406.html

"...we have all too frequently in demonstrations almost everywhere in the world the placards and chants equating Israel and its government with its own demonic anti-type, the nazi-ism of Adolf Hitler. We have in effect the Holocaust, the mightiest engine of ethnic cleansing the world has ever seen, thrown in the face of the people who were its targets."

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 02 July 2005 01:28 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
[QB]RS:

With respect, I don't agree. There is a movement in Israel to get rid of or minimize the religious and certainly fundamentalist influence in Israel. I agree it is a dilemma.


And I agree that important forces are fighting the slide into fundementalism. Who will win? I'm pessismistic.


quote:
Israel was founded as a Jewish state by and often led by agnostics ( BTW Golda Meir was a non observant Jew) to preserve Jews. By giving the religious element any power it became a catch 22. Today people are tired of requiring religious approval for marriage, divorce, birth and death. There is much resistance.

All true. Very informative post.

quote:
Israel is on of the only proportional democracies in the world.

PR is common to most of the democracies of Europe; Italy, Germany, Spain and (I believe) France are all PR.

quote:
So again, with great respect I think the reverse is true. The settlers will ultimately lose territory and power, less zealots from abroad will come (no more free ride) and the religious right will be less influential. The problem of religious fundamentalism is a world wide one grown out of fear. For example USA (your own) is led by a zealot, Iran by a 6th century mentality fundamentalist regime responsible for poverty, abuses of rights and overpopulation, Sudan, and on and on. I don't hear much of an outcry about these regimes. It's this double standard that I have problems with.

I agree it is a huge problem. I don't agree that there is the kind of double standard you are talking about. There is a huge outcry against Bush. This whole site is riddled with abuse of Bush. Just today I told a close friend "This isn't the country I love any more."

Sudan and Iran are also getting a lot of negetive attention.

quote:
I do take issue with the use of comparatives of Nazi Germany with Israel

It was a limited comparison meant only to imply "sometime the nature of a society is defined not by what the majority thinks, but by what they allow a committed minority to do." The Nazi reference was probably unnecessary.

I feel strongly that to learn the lessons of Nazi evil, we must be able to reference it, even though nothing in the world today can compare to the sheer scale of Nazi crimes. If we cannot say "so the Nazis did; and this is where it ended" then we cannot make use of the history of Nazism to help us recognize and oppose evil.

This was an unnecessary and hasty reference which I am happy to withdraw. But any regime that follows the path of facism, racism, aggression and evil in ways large and small ought to be held up to that comparison; American, Sudan, and Iran all have their Nazi-like moments, and so does Israel.

Good post, very thoughtful.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 02 July 2005 01:53 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
However, Peech, you'll prolly find you do less damage to your credibility on babble if you find someone *else* to quote, rather than that obsequious Liberal Party ass-kisser, Rex Murphy.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 02 July 2005 02:20 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The settlers will ultimately lose territory and power, less zealots from abroad will come (no more free ride) and the religious right will be less influential.

I hope you're right, but I predict the opposite will occur; the two-front war with the Palestinians and the settlers will drive out of the country those Jews who have the money and the cultural connections to settle elsewhere in the West. These will tend to be mosty educated, Ashkenazi "liberals" (for why I am putting that word in quotation marks, see the "Prince of Peace" thread.

The knuckle-draggers have nowhere to go, and tend to have lots of kids. If Israel ever really leaves the West Bank and Gaza, these people will focus their energies on the Gailee and the Negev, where 1.2 million Palestinian citizens of Israel are struggling for equality under the law and to hold on to the tiny pieces of land they have left.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 02 July 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree it is a dilemma and unfortunately fundamentalism is a world-wide problem. Let's hope it's "just" a cycle, and the "settlers" find another home. After all the world survived the 50's..... however I don't think USA will survive as a world power much longer. Environment, oil and economics is going to get the USA and all of us.This is a very scary article that might interest you:

http://www.ckln.fm/~asadismi/usempire.html

As for the Nazi imagery, as you may have leaned from your experience here (if not else where) it's a very touchy subject and drawing a parallel between that unspeakably evil regime to Israel (no matter how strong and occasionally valid the criticism of it is) is just not acceptable. However I acknowledge with thanks your retraction.

PS

Heph:

Sorry.I guess I am just an ass-kisser myself...especially if they are soft and not so hairy.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 02 July 2005 03:08 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee. What is your stand on a Palestinian homeland? Do you feel that they should have one or not?
From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 02 July 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for the Nazi imagery, as you may have leaned from your experience here (if not else where) it's a very touchy subject and drawing a parallel between that unspeakably evil regime to Israel (no matter how strong and occasionally valid the criticism of it is) is just not acceptable.

I think the real outrage is that there are parallels between what Hitler did to the Jews and others and what people are doing in Palestine ostensibly on the Jews' behalf.

We should always respect the incomparible horror of the Holocaust, but no one, not even the Jewish people, "owns" the Holocaust and gets to dictate when and how it is remembered.

When I have time I may start a thread (tenative title "The N-word") about Nazism as it relates to the Middle East; the comparisons with Israel, with Israel's enemies, when it is a valid comparison, when it is invalid, and what purpose it serves to invoke Nazism.

There is no question it is a touchy subject, and bringing up Nazism at every opportunity simply cheapens the importance of Nazism as a negetive example for the world. For while when we cannot cite Nazism in exposing similar evils, its meaning is lost to us, it is equally true that if every evil is compared to Nazism, its meaning is equally lost.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 02 July 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

I think the real outrage is that there are parallels between what Hitler did to the Jews and others and what people are doing in Palestine ostensibly on the Jews' behalf.

We should always respect the incomparible horror of the Holocaust, but no one, not even the Jewish people, "owns" the Holocaust and gets to dictate when and how it is remembered.

When I have time I may start a thread (tenative title "The N-word") about Nazism as it relates to the Middle East; the comparisons with Israel, with Israel's enemies, when it is a valid comparison, when it is invalid, and what purpose it serves to invoke Nazism.

There is no question it is a touchy subject, and bringing up Nazism at every opportunity simply cheapens the importance of Nazism as a negetive example for the world. For while when we cannot cite Nazism in exposing similar evils, its meaning is lost to us, it is equally true that if every evil is compared to Nazism, its meaning is equally lost.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]



I agree that the Nazi regime must be held up to the world as an example of evil to overcome. However I disagree with it being permissible to compare Israel (a nation founded largely by survivors of the Holocaust). To do so is to throw that horror directly into the victims and their descendants faces (which was the point of my Rex Murphy quote above). It's also an emotional issue because most descendants of survivors (including myself) know that their family tree ends at a point when this unspeakable evil began. As for the Jews "owning" the Holocaust ...it's an interesting point. Elie Wiesall said "while not only Jews were victims all Jews were." (or something like that.) The point is that although Gypsies, Communists, Gays etc were also victims, the Holocaust was designed and intended to cleanse Europe of ALL Jews. Furthermore the Catholic church has made great attempts to Universalize the Holocaust as an effort to whitewash it's complicity and even case of the Holocaust. It blamed the jews for centuries for a whole host of wrongs starting with decide. That is why the attempt to establish a Carmelite convent on Auschwitz was resisted so strongly. So while I totally agree the Holocaust must be remembered by all in an effort to learn and never repeat any kind of genocide (Sudan Rwanda etc) but an attempt to trivialize or universalize it (ie "we suffered too...never mind the Jews") is a very slippery slope indeed. What I find disturbing in the Middle East is that the Arab (and Palestinian) culture has wholly embraced the canard of antisemitism and Nazi analogy (not to mention Holocaust denial). Some here have attempted to justify or explain this away as an understandable expression by an oppressed people. I couldn't disagree more. By way of analogy, Jews were oppressed for centuries by the Church yet have not expressed racist and hateful beliefs against the Church. In short...hate is never justifiable. I am certain that your motives are sincere. I am just attempting to explain why this is a sensitive issue.

PS:

Happy Holidays!

[ 04 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 05 July 2005 06:34 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Formal charges laid in Jerusalem Gay Pride stabbings

quote:
The man who stabbed three people during last week's gay Pride parade in Jerusalem was formally charged Tuesday with three counts of attempted murder.

Shai Schlissel, a member of an extreme Orthodox sect made a brief court appearance in Jerusalem where the charges were read.

During questioning by police Schlissel said that he had been sent to the parade as an emissary of God to kill gays and to "ensure that such an abomination [as the parade] would not take place in Israel."



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 05 July 2005 09:14 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Peech, thank you for an intelligent response to RSFarrel.

It never ceases to amaze me that Israel seems to be one of the few states here regularly compared to the nazi regime. I am convinced that most Babblers find this as repugnant as both you and I but the sheer fact that rsfarrel seems intent on bringing it up both frightens and saddens me.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 05 July 2005 09:26 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You may appreciate it, ohara, but I find this:
quote:
. What I find disturbing in the Middle East is that the Arab (and Palestinian) culture has wholly embraced the canard of antisemitism and Nazi analogy (not to mention Holocaust denial).
To be completely hyperbolic. I am not going to say that anti-Semitism is not prevalent, but to suggest that it is "wholly embraced" in Arab culture is wrong, and defames those who have fought this stereotype.

You know, why is it NOT acceptable to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel (and I do agree that it is inaccurate and needlessly offensive to do so, as I have explained in other threads), but it is alright to label an entire society as "anti-Semitic"?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 05 July 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
AGAIN with the holocaust bullshit...

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD?!?!

Bugger OFF ohara!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 06 July 2005 02:08 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
You may appreciate it, ohara, but I find this: To be completely hyperbolic. I am not going to say that anti-Semitism is not prevalent, but to suggest that it is "wholly embraced" in Arab culture is wrong, and defames those who have fought this stereotype.

You know, why is it NOT acceptable to make comparisons between Nazi Germany and Israel (and I do agree that it is inaccurate and needlessly offensive to do so, as I have explained in other threads), but it is alright to label an entire society as "anti-Semitic"?


Coyote, I agree it is wrong to label an entire society as anti-Semitic. Perhaps Peech could take a second look at what he/she wrote.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 02:14 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks O'Hara.

Coyote if you read media from the Arab states then you could not help but notice it is steeped in anti-semitism. Sorry but it's the truth.

Besides you have taken my well-intentioned post out of context. All Arab culture is not anti-semitic. But it is prevelant. And since you raised it (and seemingly can't leave well enough alone) then how about this as an example of racism found in Muslim teaching:

In the May 13 sermon Ibrahim Mudayris reiterated many of the often-repeated PA justifications for the anticipated genocide, including the following hate messages:

1. The Jews have inherently evil character traits that Muhammad warned Muslims about in the Koran.
2. The Jews have been the source of conflict throughout all of history: “The Jews are a virus similar to AIDS, from which the entire world is suffering.”
3. The persecution of Jews throughout history is presented as natural responses of self-defense by numerous countries against the evil of the Jews. Britain, France, Portugal, Czarist Russia, Nazi Germany, all persecuted and/or expelled Jews – as acts of self-defense and revenge.
4. Zionism was created by Britain in order solve its Jewish problem by sending them to Israel.
5. God has predetermined that the Jewish problem will be solved with the extermination of the Jews.
6. God has predetermined that the Christian -Islam interactions will end with today's Christian countries under Islam.
7. Israel has no right to exist and will be destroyed

http://www.pmw.org.il/index.html

Not to mention that the "Horsemen" (based on the Proticals of Zion) was broadcast in Egypt, Syria and many Arab nations, the actual text is widely circulated in Arab nations.

If you want more examples I could go on and on.
And please read my post in it's proper context which was meant as an explanation not accusation. Unfortunately there aren't enough outspoken people the Arab world condemning anti-semitism, Abbas himself comes from this background. But I do agree hate on all sides must end.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 July 2005 02:34 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Coyote if you read media from the Arab states then you could not help but notice it is steeped in anti-semitism. Sorry but it's the truth.

No, it is not the truth.

I regularly read media from Qatar, Egypt and Lebanon, and I have never come across anything even resembling what Peach quoted.

One might wonder why Peach is trying to convince babblers that Arabs are "steeped in anti-semitism."


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 02:38 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
One might wonder why Peach is trying to convince babblers that Arabs are "steeped in anti-semitism."
quote:

How about this for a rationale ....truth!!!!?


Holocaust denial and blatant antisemitism on display in Al-Liwaa Al-Islami, the official newspaper of Egypt's ruling political party:

"The Zionist enterprise on the land of Palestine succeeded by means of lies and myths, from the myth of the 'Chosen People' and the 'Promised Land' to the lie about the burning of the Jews in the Nazi gas chambers during World War II. When these means were scientifically examined, it was proven that they were untrue, that their reasoning was weak, and that they cannot withstand the test of solid fact.

"What interests us here is that this lie [about] the burning of the Jews in the Nazi crematoria has been disseminated throughout the world until our time in order to extort the West and make it easier for the Jews of Europe to hunt [sic] Palestine and establish a state on it, in disregard of the most basic principles of international law and the right of peoples to independent life without occupation. [This lie] was raised [also] so that [the Jews] would receive financial, technological, and economic aid from the West.

http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/2004_07.html


http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=11897

previous entry:
The Truth Hurts current weblog next entry:
RoP Burns Sudanese Alive

7/28/2004: Arabs Hate, Euros Shocked

Ambassadors from EU countries pretended to be shocked by the hate speech of their Arab partners, at a closed meeting in which Arab states “bluntly” told the EUroweenies that they’re going to block a UN resolution against antisemitism: Arabs shock Europeans, refuse to condemn anti-Semitism.

NEW YORK - Arab states at the United Nations are trying to foil a proposal to raise a vote condemning anti-Semitism in the General Assembly this September.

At a closed meeting held recently in New York, UN ambassadors from Arab and EU countries met and the Arabs made clear that they do not accept the initiative for the UN General Assembly to condemn anti-Semitism.

The blunt language used by the Arabs describing their opposition, and their plans to use diplomatic means to prevent the resolution from reaching a vote, shocked the Europeans, said a UN source.

According to UN sources, the Arab delegates were also critical of a UN seminar on anti-Semitism held last month. A senior Western diplomat said that among the Arabs who spoke with the Europeans was PLO observer Nasser al Kidwe, and he was particularly outspoken in his objections to a UN General Assembly resolution on anti-Semitism.

The source said Kidwe attacked the content of UN Secretary general Koffi Anan’s speech to the seminar last month, particularly Annan’s pride in the cancelation of the 1975 Zionism equals racism resolution. “The Europeans were depressed when they left the meeting,” said the source.

Jordanian Ambassador to the UN Prince Ziad Hussein argued that the resolution would reinforce the tendency to call any criticism of Israel, anti-Semitic. Moroccan Ambassador Mohammed Banone, said that the seminar against anti-Semitism was a terrible idea and a decision would only divide the world body. Arab League Ambassador Mahamas Hani warned that a UN resolution condemning anti-Semitism would have a negative impact on the Middle East.

Is that enough for you????????

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 06 July 2005 02:48 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

No, it is not the truth.

I regularly read media from Qatar, Egypt and Lebanon, and I have never come across anything even resembling what Peach quoted.

One might wonder why Peach is trying to convince babblers that Arabs are "steeped in anti-semitism."



Im sorry but that is not how I read her post. She provided text and links. You provided no links whatsoever only the fact that you have read Arab press. On balance Peech seems to have provided the necessary documentation to show that major entities within certain middle east and predominantly Arab states engage in wilfull and even state-sponsored anti-Semitism.

From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 03:02 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
O'Hara:
Thanks. Actually I'm a "he." Not that that matters.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 03:11 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Well, since this seems to have beecome a catch-all thread for things about Israel, here's a piece on the average annual rainfall in Israel

quote:
Yair Goldreich Professor

Faculty: Faculty of Social Sciences
Departments: Department of Geography
Telephone: +972.3.531.8613
Facsimile: +972.3.534.4430
E-Mail: goldrey@mail.biu.ac.il
Key Words:

Topoclimate, Climate of Israel, Urban Climate, Wind Energy, Spatial Analysis, Meteorology, Climatology.

Research interests:

- Urban climate
- Topo-climate
- Climate of Israel
- Wind energy utilization
- Spatial organization of discrete variables

Publications:

Goldreich, Yair "Spatial Variation of Midseason Rainfall Date in Israel - A Unique Phenomenon" Merhavim.

Goldreich, Yair ; Mozes, H. ; Rosenfeld, D. "Analysis of Rainy Cloud Systems By Radar And Satellite Images in Israel, Inter-month Variations"[in Hebrew]. Merhavim.

Goldreich, Yair "Spatial distribution of mid-season rainfall date in Israel - a review" Horizons in Israel, vol. 60-61, 2004, p. 177-182.

Goldreich, Yair ; Mozes, Hanan ; Rosenfeld, Daniel "Radar analysis of cloud and their rainfall yield in Israel " Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 53, 2003, p. 63-76.

Goldreich, Yair ; The Climate of Israel - Observations Research and Applications, 298 pp.New York, Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers, 2003.

Karni, O. ; Goldreich, Yair "The Climate of the Arava" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 50, 2001, p. 53-59.

Revivo, V. ; Goldreich, Yair "Coastal Plain Rainfall Precedes Judea and Samaria Rainfall"[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 10, 2001, p. 369-378.

Goldreich, Yair "Diurnal Summer Wind Variability in Samaria "[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 8, 1999, p. 275-280.

Goldreich, Yair ; The Climate of Israel - Observations, Research and Applications[in Hebrew], 400 pp.Ramat Gan, Bar-Ilan University Press, 1999.

Koscielny-Bunde, E. ; Bunde, A. ; Havlin, Shlomo ; Roman, H.E. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Schellenhuber, H.J. "Indication of a Universal Persistence Law Governing Atmospheric Variability" Phys. Rev. Lett., vol. 81, 1998, p. 729.

Goldreich, Yair ; Levin, A. "Temperature Changes in the Last 40 Years in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1997, p. 51.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "Dividing the Year Into Four Seasons According to Temperature Data in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Res. Studies, vol. 6, 1997, p. 293-297.

Goldreich, Yair ; Freundlich, A. ; Alpert, P. "Rainfall Anomaly Over the Lee-Side of Mt. Carmel (Israel) and the Associated Wind Field." J. Of Appl. Meteor., vol. 36, 1997, p. 748-762.

Goldreich, Yair "Water Problem in Israel" The Marbug Geography Society Year Book, p. 245-249., 1997.

Goldreich, Yair ; Hazan, E. "On the Connection Between Annual Rainfall Amount and Number of Rain Spells"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Geogr. Soc., 1996, p. 54.

Koscielny-Bunde, E. ; Bunde, A. ; Havlin, Shlomo ; Goldreich, Yair "Analysis of Daily Temperature Fluctuations" Physica. A, vol. 231, 1996, p. 393.

Goldreich, Yair "Israeli Cities' Contribution to Urban Climate Studies" Invited Lecture Proc. Int. Conf. On Urban Climatology, 1996, p. 66-67.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "The Annual March Temperature Phase in Judea and Samaria in Comparison with That in the Coastal Plain"[in Hebrew]. Proc. 6th Annual Meeting Judea and Samaria, 1996, p. 10.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "Temperature Annual March and Seasons in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1996, p. 30.

Goldreich, Yair "Rainfall Enhancement by Urbanization Versus Cloud-Seeding Operations in Israel" In: Lipshitz, G. and Grados, Y.(eds.)The Mosaic of Israeli Geography - At the Close of the Twentieth Century, p. 411-417.Beer Sheva, The Negev Center for Regional Development, 1996.

Goldreich, Yair "General Problems in Urban Climatology" Invited Lecture, Proc. Conf. IGU Commission on Climatol. And Air Pollution, 1995, p. 37-39.

Goldreich, Yair "Three Decades of Urban Climate Studies in Israel" Proc. Int. Symp. On Environ. And Biometeor., 1995, p. 342-350.

Goldreich, Yair "The Rainfall Midseason Spatial Distribution in Mediterranean Climate Regions"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1995, p. 6.

Goldreich, Yair "Applications of Spatial Analysis Techniques for Assessing of Cloud Seeding Contribution to the Rainfall in Israel" Proc. Jehuda Neumann Memorial Symp. On Mesoscale Modeling and Climate History, 1995, p. 92-95.

Goldreich, Yair "Temporal Variations Rainfall in Israel" Clim. Res., vol. 5, 1995, p. 167-179.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate Studies in Israel - A Review" Atmos. Environ., vol. 29, 1995, p. 467-478.

Shoshany, Maxim ; Aminov, R. ; Goldreich, Yair "The Extraction of Roof - Tops from Thermal Imagery for Analysis the Urban Heat Island Structure" Geocarto International, vol. 9, 1994, p. 61-69.

Goldreich, Yair ; Aminov, R. ; Shoshany, Maxim "The Removal of Roofs from Thermal Images by Image Processing for Urban Heat Island Studies"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1994, p. 26.

Goldreich, Yair ; Freundlich, A. "The Yagur Rainfall Anomaly"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1994, p. 23.

Goldreich, Yair "Applications of Spatial Analysis Techniques to Determine the Cloud Seeding Contribution to the Rainfall in Israel" Phys. Geogr., vol. 15, 1994, p. 573-593.

Goldreich, Yair "The Spatial Distribution of Annual Rainfall in Israel - A Review" Theor. Appl. Clim., vol. 50, 1994, p. 45-59.

Goldreich, Yair "The Nature of Reaction Towards the Topographical Factor in Urban Climate Research" Isr. Meteor. Res. Papers, vol. 5, 1994, p. 58-66.

Goldreich, Yair "New Approaches in Climatic Regionalization of Judea and Samaria Area."[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 3, 1994, p. 315-330.

Goldreich, Yair "Climate of Israel Studies-Main Topics in the Last Two Decades"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Abst. Of the Annual Conference of Isr. Geogr. Soc., 1993, p. 33.

Goldreich, Yair "Climatic Classification of Judea and Samaria, According to New Research Approaches"[in Hebrew]. Proc. 3rd Annual Meeting Judea and Samaria Res. Studies, 1993, p. 27.

Goldreich, Yair "The Forthcoming Book: The Climate of Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1993, p. 8-9.

Goldreich, Yair ; Raveh, A. "COPLOT Display Technique as an Aid to Climatic Classification" Geog. Analysis, vol. 25, 1993, p. 337-353.

Goldreich, Yair "The Climate of Israel" Encyclopaedia Hebraica, p. 203-222., 1993.

Goldreich, Yair ; Raveh, A. "Determination of Israel Climate Regions by COPLOT Display Technique" Proc. Yale Mintz Memor. Int. Symp. On Climate and Climatic Change, 1992, p. 37-39.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Influence on Climatic Classification in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1992, p. 31.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate Study in a Sub-Tropical City Located on a Ridge - A Review" Atmos. Environ., vol. 26B, 1992, p. 407-420.

Goldreich, Yair ; Kaner, M. "Advertent/Inadvertent Effect on 'Rainfall Centre' Displacement in the Northern Israel" Atmos. Environ., vol. 25B, 1991, p. 301-309.

Goldreich, Yair "Operation "Truce" to Study the Tropical Urban Climate - Report on an International Research Group"[in Hebrew]. Bull. Isr. Geogr. Soc., vol. 3, 1990, p. 21.

Goldreich, Yair "The 1961-90 Rainfall Normals, Their Annual March and Relevance to the Urban Climate in Israel." Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 39, 1990, p. 85-92.

Goldreich, Yair ; Gadot, G. "Temporal and Spatial Changes of the Centre of the Rainfall Map of Israel." In: Shachar, A. and Aviram, Y.(eds.)Eretz Israel (David Amiran Volume)[in Hebrew], p. 52-60.Jerusalem, Israel Exploration Society, 1990.

Goldreich, Yair ; Tyson, P.D. "Diurnal and Inter-Diurnal Variations in the Large-Scale Atmospheric Turbulence Over South Africa" South African Geogr. J., vol. 70, 1988, p. 48-56.

Goldreich, Yair ; Surridge, A.D. "A Case Study of Low Level Country Breeze and Inversion Climate in the Johannesburg Area" J. Climatol., vol. 8, 1988, p. 55-66.

Surridge, A.D. ; Goldreich, Yair "On the Spatial Characteristics of the Nocturnal Stable Boundary Layer Over a Complex Urban Terrain" Atmos. Environ., vol. 22, 1988, p. 1-6.

Goldreich, Yair "Temporal Changes in the Spatial Distribution of Rainfall in the Coastal Central Plain of Israel" In: Gregory, S.(ed.)Recent Climatic Change - A Regional Approach, p. 116-124.London, Belhaven Press, 1988.

Goldreich, Yair "Advertent/Inadvertent Changes in the Spatial Distribution of Rainfall in the Central Coastal Plain of Israel" Climatic Change, vol. 11, 1987, p. 361-373.

Duryan, L.M. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Maximov, Z. "Wind Energy in the Negev" Appl. Geogr, vol. 6, 1986, p. 241-254.

Goldreich, Yair ; Druyan, L.M. ; Berger, H. "The Interaction of Valley/Mountain Winds with a Diurnally Veering Sea/Land Breeze" J. Climatol., vol. 6, 1986, p. 551-561.

Druyan, L.M. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Mishaeli, Y. "Characteristics of Mesoscale Precipitation Patterns" Phys. Geog., vol. 7, 1986, p. 25-45.

Goldreich, Yair "The Structure of the Ground Heat Island in a Central Business District" J. Climate Appl. Meteor., vol. 24, 1985, p. 1237-1244.

Goldreich, Yair "Comparison of DISTCORMAT Technique with Other Spatial Methods" Proceedings of the 25th International Geographical Congress, 1984, p. 104-105.

Goldreich, Yair "Distcorrelation Matrix - A Spatial Correlation Trend Analysis" Geog. Analysis, vol. 16, 1984, p. 358-368.

Goldreich, Yair "Reaction Towards the Topographical Factor in Urban Climate Studies"[in Hebrew]. Horizons, vol. 11/12, 1984, p. 3-12.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban-Topo-Climatology" Progress in Phys. Geogr., vol. 8, 1984, p. 336-364.

Goldreich, Yair "The Dispute Concerning the Date of the New Year for Tress - Climatic Point of View" Jewish Quarterly Review, vol. 74, 1983, p. 80-87.

Goldreich, Yair "Aspects in the Greater Tel Aviv Urban Climate" In: Grossman, D.(ed.)Between Yarkon and Ayalon[in Hebrew], p. 11-22.Ramat Gan, Bar-Ilan University Press, 1983.

Goldreich, Yair "Comments of "musings About Rainfall"" Speculation Sci. Tech., vol. 5, 1982, p. 466-467.

Goldreich, Yair ; Von Gogh, R.G. ; Nijl, J.A. ; Leal, N. "Topographical and Urban Influences on the Mesoclimate of Shallow Valleys in Johannesburg" South African Geogr. J., vol. 63, 1981, p. 147-164.

Goldreich, Yair ; Tyson, P.D. ; Von Gogh, R.G. ; Venter, G.P. "Enhancement and Suppression of Urban Heat Plumes Over Johannesburg" Boundary Layer Meteor., vol. 21, 1981, p. 115-126.

Goldreich, Yair "The Urban Effect as an Additional Factor Determining Rainfall Spatial Distribution in Israel" Israel Meteor. Res. Papers, vol. 3, 1981, p. 193-202.

Tyson, P.D. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Von Gogh, R.G. "Acoustic Sounder Observation of the Dissipation of Nocturnal Surface Inversions Over Ridge and Valley Terrain" South African Geogr. J., vol. 62, 1980, p. 62-71.

Goldreich, Yair ; Manes, A. "Urban Effects on Precipitation Patterns in the Greater Tel Aviv Area" Arch. Meteor. Geophys. Biokl., vol. 27, 1979, p. 213-224.

Goldreich, Yair "A Possible Heat-Island Effect on Bezuidenhout Valley Air Circulation and Temperature Distribution" South African Geogr. J., vol. 61, 1979, p. 123-127.

Goldreich, Yair "Terminological Remarks on the Annual March of Relative Humidity in Israel" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 27, 1978, p. 88-90.

Goldreich, Yair ""Rhodes Cecil John", "Rhodesia"" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 30[in Hebrew], 1978.

Goldreich, Yair ""Kalahari", "Cape Town", "Kimberley"" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 29[in Hebrew], 1977.

Goldreich, Yair "Climatic Regions of Judea and Samaria Classification by the Method of Thornthwaite" In: Shmueli, A.; Grossman, D. and Zeevy, R.(eds.)Judea and Samaria[in Hebrew], p. 29-33.Jerusalem, Kna'an, 1977.

Goldreich, Yair "Regional Variations of Phase in the Seasonal March of Rainfall in Israel" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 25, 1976, p. 133-137.

Goldreich, Yair "Pretoria" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 28[in Hebrew], 1976.

Goldreich, Yair ; Hermoni, Z. "Results of Night Teperature Measurements Using a Survey Moblie in the Hule Valley"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 11, 1975, p. 29-34.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate"[in Hebrew]. Mada, vol. 19, 1975, p. 298-302.

Goldreich, Yair "Port Elizabeth" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 27[in Hebrew], 1975.

Goldreich, Yair "Observations on Urban Humidity Island in Johannesburg" Isr J Earth Sci, vol. 23, 1974, p. 39-46.

Goldreich, Yair "Natal" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 25[in Hebrew], 1974.

Goldreich, Yair "Influence of Topography on Johannesburg's Temperature Distribution" South Africa Geography Journal, vol. 53, 1971, p. 84-88.

Goldreich, Yair "Reduction of Data Measured in a Meteorological Mobile Unit"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 7, 1970, p. 22-28.

Goldreich, Yair "Computation of the Magnitude of Johannesburg's Heat Island" Notos, vol. 19, 1970, p. 95-106.

Goldreich, Yair "Low Teperatures in the Arava Valley"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 1, 1963, p. 11.



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 03:15 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Here's another interesting one about camels in Palestine...

quote:
Sinai 1916. Sgt Frederick Mercier - Imperial Camel Corps - 1st Camel Battalion [1st Company]. The original of this photo was badly damaged by the 125 degree heat of the Dead Sea/Jordan Valley - digital restoration took 3months! (Donor J. Van Luyn)

From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 03:19 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Why, a diatribe about anti-semitic Jews!

That should keep *everyone* happy! (He's even thoughtfully got everything CAPITALIZED, so he's fit right in here...)

quote:
ALL I CAN SAY IS I AM SICK AND TIRED OF HEARING BAD THINGS ABOUT YIDDISH. I SPEAK THIS LANGUAGE AND I TAKE GREAT OFFENCE OF WHAT SO CALLED "JEWS" HERE ARE SAYING ABOUT IT. ITS TOO BAD THE HEBREW LANGUAGE DID NOT DIE IN THE HOLOCAUST AS WELL... JEWS KEEP DERIDING JEWS, MEANWHILE, CHRISTIANITY IS INCREASING IN ISRAEL AND MORE JEWS ARE SIMPLY DESTROYING THEIR IDENTITIES AS JEWS. THATS FINE WITH ME, BUT DONT' TAKE YIDDISH LANGUAGE WITH YOU!!! TO THOSE WHO CONTINUE TO SAY "OH, BUT MANY ARE OPTING FOR IVRIT, OR YIDDISH IS A NON-REVIVED LANGUAGE WHY BOTHER? " ALL I CAN SAY IS THIS: IF WE LET YIDDISH DIE, THEN THE NAZI GERMANS HAVE WON! THE NAZIS IN GENERAL HAVE WON, HITLER WON, STALIN WON... BUT, YOU ALL KEEP DERIDING YIDDISH(THIS IS TARGETED TO ANTI-SEMITIC JEWS AND SABRAS!) ONE DAY, JUST ONE DAY ISRAEL WILL BE DESTROYED BY A CATACLYSMIC EVENT. I SUPPORT PALESTINIANS DRIVING ISRAELIS INTO THE SEA.. WHO NEEDS ISRAEL!? AFTER ALL, IT WAS THE ZIONISTS WHO MADE THE PICTURE OF YIDDISH CULTURE AS BAD.. TELL ME, AS YOU KEEP DERIDING YIDDISH, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE ARE LEARNING IT!!! JEWS ARE ASHAMED OF THEIR HERITAGE.. YIDN HAYNT ZENEN SHEMEVDIK AF ZEYERE KULTUR... AND WITH NO DOUBT THIS WILL LEAD TO A 2ND HOLOCAUST... BY THOSE WHO KEEP DERIDING JEWS, BUT IT WON'T BE A WAR AGAINST NON-JEWS.. OH NO!!! BUT, IT WILL BE A WAR AGAINST ISRAEL AND THE JEWISH DIASPORA!!! JEWS KEEP SPREADING HATE LIES ABOUT POLES.. I AM SICK OF THIS CRAP! I AM ALSO SICK OF THE MENTIONING OF THE HOLOCAUST! BIG DEAL! MENTION MILLIONS OF OTHERS THAN JEWS WHO DIED IN THE HOLOCAUST!!! YIDDISH AIN'T NO HOLOCAUST LANGUAGE EITHER, AT LEAST THE ONE I SPEAK.. SO TO ALL THOSE JEWS, JULIAN, AND THE REST WHO KEEP DERIDING YIDDISH: MAY YOU BE SCORNED FOR THE REST OF YOUR FAKE JEW LIVES!!!

NADAV

YIDDISH LIVES!!! AND WILL LIVE BECAUSE IT HAS A SOUL.. I AM THE OWNER OF THE LANGUAGE, I EVEN PERFORM ROCK CONCERTS IN IT!!! HEBREW IS NOT THE ONLY LANGUAGE JEWS SPEAK, NOR IS IT THE SPOKESMAN FOR ASHKENAZIC JEWS!!! ISRAEL, HANDS OFF YIDDISH!



From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 06 July 2005 03:23 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
What's the point of this...?

quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:
Well, since this seems to have beecome a catch-all thread for things about Israel, here's a piece on the average annual rainfall in Israel

Yair Goldreich Professor

Faculty: Faculty of Social Sciences
Departments: Department of Geography
Telephone: +972.3.531.8613
Facsimile: +972.3.534.4430
E-Mail: goldrey@mail.biu.ac.il
Key Words:

Topoclimate, Climate of Israel, Urban Climate, Wind Energy, Spatial Analysis, Meteorology, Climatology.

Research interests:

- Urban climate
- Topo-climate
- Climate of Israel
- Wind energy utilization
- Spatial organization of discrete variables

Publications:

Goldreich, Yair "Spatial Variation of Midseason Rainfall Date in Israel - A Unique Phenomenon" Merhavim.

Goldreich, Yair ; Mozes, H. ; Rosenfeld, D. "Analysis of Rainy Cloud Systems By Radar And Satellite Images in Israel, Inter-month Variations"[in Hebrew]. Merhavim.

Goldreich, Yair "Spatial distribution of mid-season rainfall date in Israel - a review" Horizons in Israel, vol. 60-61, 2004, p. 177-182.

Goldreich, Yair ; Mozes, Hanan ; Rosenfeld, Daniel "Radar analysis of cloud and their rainfall yield in Israel " Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 53, 2003, p. 63-76.

Goldreich, Yair ; The Climate of Israel - Observations Research and Applications, 298 pp.New York, Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers, 2003.

Karni, O. ; Goldreich, Yair "The Climate of the Arava" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 50, 2001, p. 53-59.

Revivo, V. ; Goldreich, Yair "Coastal Plain Rainfall Precedes Judea and Samaria Rainfall"[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 10, 2001, p. 369-378.

Goldreich, Yair "Diurnal Summer Wind Variability in Samaria "[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 8, 1999, p. 275-280.

Goldreich, Yair ; The Climate of Israel - Observations, Research and Applications[in Hebrew], 400 pp.Ramat Gan, Bar-Ilan University Press, 1999.

Koscielny-Bunde, E. ; Bunde, A. ; Havlin, Shlomo ; Roman, H.E. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Schellenhuber, H.J. "Indication of a Universal Persistence Law Governing Atmospheric Variability" Phys. Rev. Lett., vol. 81, 1998, p. 729.

Goldreich, Yair ; Levin, A. "Temperature Changes in the Last 40 Years in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1997, p. 51.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "Dividing the Year Into Four Seasons According to Temperature Data in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Res. Studies, vol. 6, 1997, p. 293-297.

Goldreich, Yair ; Freundlich, A. ; Alpert, P. "Rainfall Anomaly Over the Lee-Side of Mt. Carmel (Israel) and the Associated Wind Field." J. Of Appl. Meteor., vol. 36, 1997, p. 748-762.

Goldreich, Yair "Water Problem in Israel" The Marbug Geography Society Year Book, p. 245-249., 1997.

Goldreich, Yair ; Hazan, E. "On the Connection Between Annual Rainfall Amount and Number of Rain Spells"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Geogr. Soc., 1996, p. 54.

Koscielny-Bunde, E. ; Bunde, A. ; Havlin, Shlomo ; Goldreich, Yair "Analysis of Daily Temperature Fluctuations" Physica. A, vol. 231, 1996, p. 393.

Goldreich, Yair "Israeli Cities' Contribution to Urban Climate Studies" Invited Lecture Proc. Int. Conf. On Urban Climatology, 1996, p. 66-67.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "The Annual March Temperature Phase in Judea and Samaria in Comparison with That in the Coastal Plain"[in Hebrew]. Proc. 6th Annual Meeting Judea and Samaria, 1996, p. 10.

Goldreich, Yair ; Ovadia, A. "Temperature Annual March and Seasons in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1996, p. 30.

Goldreich, Yair "Rainfall Enhancement by Urbanization Versus Cloud-Seeding Operations in Israel" In: Lipshitz, G. and Grados, Y.(eds.)The Mosaic of Israeli Geography - At the Close of the Twentieth Century, p. 411-417.Beer Sheva, The Negev Center for Regional Development, 1996.

Goldreich, Yair "General Problems in Urban Climatology" Invited Lecture, Proc. Conf. IGU Commission on Climatol. And Air Pollution, 1995, p. 37-39.

Goldreich, Yair "Three Decades of Urban Climate Studies in Israel" Proc. Int. Symp. On Environ. And Biometeor., 1995, p. 342-350.

Goldreich, Yair "The Rainfall Midseason Spatial Distribution in Mediterranean Climate Regions"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1995, p. 6.

Goldreich, Yair "Applications of Spatial Analysis Techniques for Assessing of Cloud Seeding Contribution to the Rainfall in Israel" Proc. Jehuda Neumann Memorial Symp. On Mesoscale Modeling and Climate History, 1995, p. 92-95.

Goldreich, Yair "Temporal Variations Rainfall in Israel" Clim. Res., vol. 5, 1995, p. 167-179.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate Studies in Israel - A Review" Atmos. Environ., vol. 29, 1995, p. 467-478.

Shoshany, Maxim ; Aminov, R. ; Goldreich, Yair "The Extraction of Roof - Tops from Thermal Imagery for Analysis the Urban Heat Island Structure" Geocarto International, vol. 9, 1994, p. 61-69.

Goldreich, Yair ; Aminov, R. ; Shoshany, Maxim "The Removal of Roofs from Thermal Images by Image Processing for Urban Heat Island Studies"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1994, p. 26.

Goldreich, Yair ; Freundlich, A. "The Yagur Rainfall Anomaly"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1994, p. 23.

Goldreich, Yair "Applications of Spatial Analysis Techniques to Determine the Cloud Seeding Contribution to the Rainfall in Israel" Phys. Geogr., vol. 15, 1994, p. 573-593.

Goldreich, Yair "The Spatial Distribution of Annual Rainfall in Israel - A Review" Theor. Appl. Clim., vol. 50, 1994, p. 45-59.

Goldreich, Yair "The Nature of Reaction Towards the Topographical Factor in Urban Climate Research" Isr. Meteor. Res. Papers, vol. 5, 1994, p. 58-66.

Goldreich, Yair "New Approaches in Climatic Regionalization of Judea and Samaria Area."[in Hebrew]. Judea and Samaria Research Studies, vol. 3, 1994, p. 315-330.

Goldreich, Yair "Climate of Israel Studies-Main Topics in the Last Two Decades"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Abst. Of the Annual Conference of Isr. Geogr. Soc., 1993, p. 33.

Goldreich, Yair "Climatic Classification of Judea and Samaria, According to New Research Approaches"[in Hebrew]. Proc. 3rd Annual Meeting Judea and Samaria Res. Studies, 1993, p. 27.

Goldreich, Yair "The Forthcoming Book: The Climate of Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1993, p. 8-9.

Goldreich, Yair ; Raveh, A. "COPLOT Display Technique as an Aid to Climatic Classification" Geog. Analysis, vol. 25, 1993, p. 337-353.

Goldreich, Yair "The Climate of Israel" Encyclopaedia Hebraica, p. 203-222., 1993.

Goldreich, Yair ; Raveh, A. "Determination of Israel Climate Regions by COPLOT Display Technique" Proc. Yale Mintz Memor. Int. Symp. On Climate and Climatic Change, 1992, p. 37-39.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Influence on Climatic Classification in Israel"[in Hebrew]. Proc. Annual Conf. Isr. Meteor. Soc., 1992, p. 31.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate Study in a Sub-Tropical City Located on a Ridge - A Review" Atmos. Environ., vol. 26B, 1992, p. 407-420.

Goldreich, Yair ; Kaner, M. "Advertent/Inadvertent Effect on 'Rainfall Centre' Displacement in the Northern Israel" Atmos. Environ., vol. 25B, 1991, p. 301-309.

Goldreich, Yair "Operation "Truce" to Study the Tropical Urban Climate - Report on an International Research Group"[in Hebrew]. Bull. Isr. Geogr. Soc., vol. 3, 1990, p. 21.

Goldreich, Yair "The 1961-90 Rainfall Normals, Their Annual March and Relevance to the Urban Climate in Israel." Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 39, 1990, p. 85-92.

Goldreich, Yair ; Gadot, G. "Temporal and Spatial Changes of the Centre of the Rainfall Map of Israel." In: Shachar, A. and Aviram, Y.(eds.)Eretz Israel (David Amiran Volume)[in Hebrew], p. 52-60.Jerusalem, Israel Exploration Society, 1990.

Goldreich, Yair ; Tyson, P.D. "Diurnal and Inter-Diurnal Variations in the Large-Scale Atmospheric Turbulence Over South Africa" South African Geogr. J., vol. 70, 1988, p. 48-56.

Goldreich, Yair ; Surridge, A.D. "A Case Study of Low Level Country Breeze and Inversion Climate in the Johannesburg Area" J. Climatol., vol. 8, 1988, p. 55-66.

Surridge, A.D. ; Goldreich, Yair "On the Spatial Characteristics of the Nocturnal Stable Boundary Layer Over a Complex Urban Terrain" Atmos. Environ., vol. 22, 1988, p. 1-6.

Goldreich, Yair "Temporal Changes in the Spatial Distribution of Rainfall in the Coastal Central Plain of Israel" In: Gregory, S.(ed.)Recent Climatic Change - A Regional Approach, p. 116-124.London, Belhaven Press, 1988.

Goldreich, Yair "Advertent/Inadvertent Changes in the Spatial Distribution of Rainfall in the Central Coastal Plain of Israel" Climatic Change, vol. 11, 1987, p. 361-373.

Duryan, L.M. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Maximov, Z. "Wind Energy in the Negev" Appl. Geogr, vol. 6, 1986, p. 241-254.

Goldreich, Yair ; Druyan, L.M. ; Berger, H. "The Interaction of Valley/Mountain Winds with a Diurnally Veering Sea/Land Breeze" J. Climatol., vol. 6, 1986, p. 551-561.

Druyan, L.M. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Mishaeli, Y. "Characteristics of Mesoscale Precipitation Patterns" Phys. Geog., vol. 7, 1986, p. 25-45.

Goldreich, Yair "The Structure of the Ground Heat Island in a Central Business District" J. Climate Appl. Meteor., vol. 24, 1985, p. 1237-1244.

Goldreich, Yair "Comparison of DISTCORMAT Technique with Other Spatial Methods" Proceedings of the 25th International Geographical Congress, 1984, p. 104-105.

Goldreich, Yair "Distcorrelation Matrix - A Spatial Correlation Trend Analysis" Geog. Analysis, vol. 16, 1984, p. 358-368.

Goldreich, Yair "Reaction Towards the Topographical Factor in Urban Climate Studies"[in Hebrew]. Horizons, vol. 11/12, 1984, p. 3-12.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban-Topo-Climatology" Progress in Phys. Geogr., vol. 8, 1984, p. 336-364.

Goldreich, Yair "The Dispute Concerning the Date of the New Year for Tress - Climatic Point of View" Jewish Quarterly Review, vol. 74, 1983, p. 80-87.

Goldreich, Yair "Aspects in the Greater Tel Aviv Urban Climate" In: Grossman, D.(ed.)Between Yarkon and Ayalon[in Hebrew], p. 11-22.Ramat Gan, Bar-Ilan University Press, 1983.

Goldreich, Yair "Comments of "musings About Rainfall"" Speculation Sci. Tech., vol. 5, 1982, p. 466-467.

Goldreich, Yair ; Von Gogh, R.G. ; Nijl, J.A. ; Leal, N. "Topographical and Urban Influences on the Mesoclimate of Shallow Valleys in Johannesburg" South African Geogr. J., vol. 63, 1981, p. 147-164.

Goldreich, Yair ; Tyson, P.D. ; Von Gogh, R.G. ; Venter, G.P. "Enhancement and Suppression of Urban Heat Plumes Over Johannesburg" Boundary Layer Meteor., vol. 21, 1981, p. 115-126.

Goldreich, Yair "The Urban Effect as an Additional Factor Determining Rainfall Spatial Distribution in Israel" Israel Meteor. Res. Papers, vol. 3, 1981, p. 193-202.

Tyson, P.D. ; Goldreich, Yair ; Von Gogh, R.G. "Acoustic Sounder Observation of the Dissipation of Nocturnal Surface Inversions Over Ridge and Valley Terrain" South African Geogr. J., vol. 62, 1980, p. 62-71.

Goldreich, Yair ; Manes, A. "Urban Effects on Precipitation Patterns in the Greater Tel Aviv Area" Arch. Meteor. Geophys. Biokl., vol. 27, 1979, p. 213-224.

Goldreich, Yair "A Possible Heat-Island Effect on Bezuidenhout Valley Air Circulation and Temperature Distribution" South African Geogr. J., vol. 61, 1979, p. 123-127.

Goldreich, Yair "Terminological Remarks on the Annual March of Relative Humidity in Israel" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 27, 1978, p. 88-90.

Goldreich, Yair ""Rhodes Cecil John", "Rhodesia"" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 30[in Hebrew], 1978.

Goldreich, Yair ""Kalahari", "Cape Town", "Kimberley"" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 29[in Hebrew], 1977.

Goldreich, Yair "Climatic Regions of Judea and Samaria Classification by the Method of Thornthwaite" In: Shmueli, A.; Grossman, D. and Zeevy, R.(eds.)Judea and Samaria[in Hebrew], p. 29-33.Jerusalem, Kna'an, 1977.

Goldreich, Yair "Regional Variations of Phase in the Seasonal March of Rainfall in Israel" Isr. J. Earth Sci., vol. 25, 1976, p. 133-137.

Goldreich, Yair "Pretoria" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 28[in Hebrew], 1976.

Goldreich, Yair ; Hermoni, Z. "Results of Night Teperature Measurements Using a Survey Moblie in the Hule Valley"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 11, 1975, p. 29-34.

Goldreich, Yair "Urban Climate"[in Hebrew]. Mada, vol. 19, 1975, p. 298-302.

Goldreich, Yair "Port Elizabeth" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 27[in Hebrew], 1975.

Goldreich, Yair "Observations on Urban Humidity Island in Johannesburg" Isr J Earth Sci, vol. 23, 1974, p. 39-46.

Goldreich, Yair "Natal" Encyclopaedia Hebraica - Vol. 25[in Hebrew], 1974.

Goldreich, Yair "Influence of Topography on Johannesburg's Temperature Distribution" South Africa Geography Journal, vol. 53, 1971, p. 84-88.

Goldreich, Yair "Reduction of Data Measured in a Meteorological Mobile Unit"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 7, 1970, p. 22-28.

Goldreich, Yair "Computation of the Magnitude of Johannesburg's Heat Island" Notos, vol. 19, 1970, p. 95-106.

Goldreich, Yair "Low Teperatures in the Arava Valley"[in Hebrew]. Meteor. Beisrael, vol. 1, 1963, p. 11.


Well, maybe people can go start their OWN THREAD if they don't like this hodge-podge of topics, eh?


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 July 2005 03:50 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
She provided text and links.

Indeed. Littlegreenfootballs and "EUroweenies."

Knock yourself out with links, kid:

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/ (Egypt)

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/home2.asp (Lebanon)

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage (Qatar)

(And more from Lebanon) al-Manar - the Hizbollah Station You'd expect to find antisemitism there, right? Go look for it.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 06 July 2005 04:16 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No kidding. Peech, I'm pretty well versed in Arabic media (he said modestly) relying, of course, on translation - as I do for Israeli media. In which one will find such sites as Gamla, dedicated to the promotion of Eretz Israel and the denial of a Palestinian state. Or Arutz Sheva, which features the charming Arlene Peck:
quote:
Which reminds me of Sharon and his continuing policy in Gaza. Personally, I'm all for transfer. But folks, I don't mean moving the Jews out of the Jewish State [by which the author means Occupied Palestine]. When you have a cancer, you cut the sickness out.

Sauce. Goose. Gander.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 01:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks for the links Kabong:

I read/watch them too. Which is where I found out about the broadcast of the show based on the Protocols and also about a guest on Al Jazeera who gave a history of how Jews were descendants of Monkeys and dogs. Charming.

quote:

eblog
Muslim Scholars Who Acknowledge Muslim Antisemitism
March 16, 2004

Muslim Scholars Who Acknowledge Muslim Antisemitism. How deep runs Muslim antisemitism today? Listen to the loud voices of militant Islam and you will hear it disparaged as a non-issue. But at least two informed insiders are saying otherwise.

Khaleel Mohammed, assistant professor of religion at San Diego State University, addressed a conference on anti-Semitism taking place in Montreal, according to a report in today's Montreal Gazette:

Anti-Semitism has become an entrenched tenet of Muslim theology, taught to 95 per cent of the religion's adherents in the Islamic world, a U.S. scholar said yesterday at an international conference in Montreal. …

In an interview after his talk, Mohammed, a Muslim who is assistant professor of religion at San Diego State University, said anti-Semitic sentiments have become endemic in Muslim religious teachings. "It has become part of Islamic theology, so the average Muslim learns anti-Semitism in probably a subtler form, not overt anti-Semitism, but learns it as part of his theology," he said.

Although the Muslim holy book, the Koran, preaches respect for Judaism, the Hadith, a collection of the prophet Mohammed's oral proclamations, contains anti-Semitic passages widely quoted by Muslim clerics, Mohammed said. "In Hadith literature ... which Muslims have made to be part and parcel of Islamic teaching, you cannot respect the Jew, the Jew is God's enemy until the end of time. And that's ingrained."

Irfan Khawaja, an adjunct professor of philosophy at The College of New Jersey, wrote a remarkable article in Pakistan Today; just over a year ago, on "The Problem of Muslim Anti-Semitism."

Contempt for Jews was a ubiquitous and inescapable phenomenon in the Arab/Muslim community in which I grew up in New Jersey in the 1970s and 1980s; the bigotry there was such that my brother jokingly referred to the community as "The Fourth Reich." And such attitudes remain in place today.

In the interesting discussion that follows, Khawaja considers several sources of antisemitism in Islamic tradition and muses on the his own experiences.

Once again, I hold that "militant Islam is the problem and moderate is the solution." If Muslim antisemitism is to be addressed, it will have to be done by Muslims. At least we can see the first wisps of a solution in this area. (March 16, 2004)

quote:



W

All I can say is that perhaps both you and Coyote are guilty of the very same things that you accuse Mac of....reading part of a (last)post, taking it out of context and then writing flaming responses. Ironic maybe? Trolling likely.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 06 July 2005 01:50 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech, I'm absolutely flummoxed. We provided links, to Arab and Israeli media. What exactly is your problem?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 02:01 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Peech, I'm absolutely flummoxed. We provided links, to Arab and Israeli media. What exactly is your problem?

Context. I wrote a long carefully thought out post (to try and be even handed) about why the "nazi" analogy is caustic and both you and El Kabong (as usual) chose to lift three or four words out of context and then get on your hobby horses(i.e. Arabs inherintently innocent/naive and Israel always evil) which is EXACTLY the same thing you accuse Mac of and any opposition to your politically correct forum here. This is not a forum it's a giant PC group hug or worse wank.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 06 July 2005 02:37 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But what I said was that anti-Semitism is indeed prevalent in Arab culture; I objected (and ohara agreed with me) to your blanket statement that anti-Semitism is "wholly accepted" in Arab or Palestinian culture. Your words, not mine.

Neither the links I nor Al-Q provided state that a)anti-Semitism does not exist, is not prevalent in the Arab discourse, nor b) that anti-Arab racism is "wholly accepted" in Israeli culture. I often, religiously even, read and post articles from Israeli media (predominately Haaretz).

The point here is nuance, Peech. Anti-Semitism is unacceptable; so is qualifying an entire culture as "wholly accept[ing]" of anti-Jewish racism, particularly when that can be proven not to be the case. Clear?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 02:55 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech. I have met hundreds of Arabs, I have discussed these issues at length. I have found occasionally that they have embedded racist ideas about Jews. Those are more or less of the same type that one can get hanging out in any pool hall in Canada... Jews are "good with money," etc. etc. I have never heard an Arab person deny the Holocaust, and the worst thing I ever heard was from an Arab-Canadian teenager who said "Hitler should have finshed the job," which is not Holocaust denial but quite the disgusting opposite.

You will be suprised to know that the one with the least prejudicial ideas was a regular defender of Hizbollah. In fact I would say he is completely un-racist. Anti-racist ideas are very much among the bed-rock of the multicultural traditions of Arab culture and also, despite quite a few instances of the opposite, fundamental to many strains of Islamic thought.

In fact when I have heard Arabs make the Nazi comparison you find so provocative and antisemitic it is clear they are doing so with a very conciouse knowledge the Holocaust, and as such it can not be denial, even if it may be exageration.

Cherry picking a list of antisemitic statements from the Arab press and extrapolating that to an entire society is simply bad sociology. As well, it has the methodology often characteristic of those who will cherry pick a list of "Jewish sounding" names in the corporate world and in government and then use that as evidence of the existance of "the grand conspiracy."

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 July 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Speaking of extrapolating:

quote:
I wrote a long carefully thought out post (to try and be even handed) about why the "nazi" analogy is caustic and both you and El Kabong (as usual) chose to lift three or four words out of context and then get on your hobby horses(i.e. Arabs inherintently innocent/naive and Israel always evil)

All I did was provide some links to Arab media, and that gives you grounds to make the above accusations?

Perhaps you should "carefully" think some more.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 03:21 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Coyote, & Cue:

Ok I have your points. Thank you

quote:
Cherry picking a list of antisemitic statements from the Arab press and extrapolating that to an entire society is simply bad sociology. As well, it has the methodology often characteristic of those who will cherry pick a list of "Jewish sounding" names in the corporate world and in government and then use that as evidence of the existence of "the grand conspiracy."


Although I am not sure this is a good analogy because of the volume of hate being circulated in the Arab world, and especially at the educational level. However I do fundamentally agree that hate is harmful and destructive no matter the source. Unfortuately it may take generations for that to disappear.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 06 July 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Although I am not sure this is a good analogy because of the volume of hate being circulated in the Arab world, and especially at the educational level.

I see no reason to continue discussion with Peech.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 08:36 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I see no reason to continue discussion with Peech.


Great idea !

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 09:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I do, Al Q.

We have gone over much of this stuff on this board before, and many of us our tired of it. There have been numerous threads about the supposed bigotry of Palestinian Arab teaching materials, and the kinds of criticism leveled are so rarified as to make them meaningless. Claims being made, for instance, that the inclusion of maps that fail to demarcate Israel and Palestine as two seperate regions, as a hate crime fall stiffly flat in the face of the fact that a good number of maps on Israeli government web sites also fail to make that distinction.

Go look at maps of Israel, you will see what I mean.

There have also been studies made by US teaching professionals of Palestinian teaching materials, that suggest they are no more racist than US teaching materials and contain within them the same kind of political biases that are existant in teaching materials everywhere. A look at the difference between US renderings of the war of 1812 (sometimes they don't seem to be aware that they lost the war) and Canadian renderings indicate politcal differences and are not necessarily indicative of hate crime, against one or the other, but the accent of politcal focus.

I find that the claims being made by many of those accusing Palestinian teaching materials are politicizing truth, holding that unless teaching materials accept wholeheartedly the orthodox Israeli political position, that they are racist in content.

I have to disagree. Questioning the "right" of Israel to exist is not antisemetism, it is making a politcal analysis. Antisemetism is preaching that Jews are trying to control the world through a conspiracy of bankers and communists, etc.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 09:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I don't think this i sth ekind of "political" bias you would find in US textbooks.

quote:

Jerusalem Post Editorial, June 29, 2003.

Planting seeds of the next war:
The Truth about the Palestinian schoolbooks
by Itamar Marcus, director PMW

Introduction:
One of the most meaningful gauges of the integrity of a peace process and its likelihood for success is the degree to which the “peace partners” educate towards peace. It is for this reason that the entire Palestinian Authority (PA) education apparatus, both formal and informal, has been such a dismal disappointment. Instead of seizing the opportunity to educate the future generations to live with Israel in peace, the PA has done everything in its power to teach hatred to young minds.

Making matters worse, the Palestinian Authority has been spreading two clever lies about the schoolbooks that have succeeded in deflecting international pressure for change. This week, at a meeting in Jordan, Nebil Shaath answered Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom’s complaint about the schoolbooks saying that the PA has “spent five years” rewriting the books, implying that they are now proper. Then he added, that Israel used the same old Jordanian books for educating the local Arab population “for 30 years”, and therefore has no valid complaint to the PA. Many European governments, and many Israelis, have come to the PA’s defense, citing these and other arguments.

The truth about the PA schoolbooks is first, that both new and old are far from proper - both include anti-Semitism, de-legitimize Israel’s existence and incite to hatred and violence. In the new 6th grade book “Reading the Koran”, anti-Semitism is presented openly, as children read about Allah’s warning to the Jews that because of their evil Allah will kill them: “...Oh you who are Jews ...long for death if you are truthful... for the death from which you flee, that will surely overtake you ...”In other sections they learn of Jews being expelled from their homes by Allah, and in another Jews are said to be like donkeys: “Those [Jews] who were charged with the Torah, but did not observe it, are like a donkey carrying books...” [Reading the Koran, grade 6. p.20, 23, 78]. This religious based anti-Semitism is the most dangerous, as children are taught that hating Jews is God’s choice. And while Islam is not being critiqued, it is very grave that although Islam has positive traditions regarding Jews, the PA educators chose to incorporate only hateful religious traditions.

The new PA schoolbooks that Shaath was so positive about, also teach that Israel has no right to exist, de-legitimizing Israel as a foreign occupier, compared to colonial Britain: “Colonialism: Palestine faced the British occupation after the First World War in 1917, and the Israeli occupation in 1948 …”[National Education, sixth grade, p. 16].
Since all of Israel is said to be an “occupation”, all of Israel’s cities, regions and natural resources are presented as being part of “Palestine”. For example:
“Among the famous rocks of southern Palestine are the rocks of Beersheba and the Negev” and “Palestine’s Water Sources - ... The most important is the Sea of Galilee.” [Our Beautiful Language, grade 6, Part A, p. 64, National Education, sixth grade, p. 9-10]

The Negev, Beersheba and the Sea of Galilee are in Israel and do not border the disputed territories of Judea and Samaria. Yet PA children are taught these are “Palestine”. Continuing this ideology a book is citing dedicated to “...Palestinians, so that they would remember their stolen homeland and work for its salvation...”[Our Beautiful Language, sixth grade, Part A, p. 112] and it is referring, not to the disputed territories, but Israel pre 1967.

Educating not to recognize Israel’s existence is cemented through tens of maps in the schoolbooks in which “Palestine” encompass all of Israel. Israel does not exist on any map, within any borders. The PA defense of their schoolbook map, that since there are no final borders the map is not portraying modern “Palestine” but “Mandatory Palestine”, is an insult to our intelligence. Are we expected to believe that when Palestinian children see the map called “Palestine” in all their schoolbooks they imagine Britain a half a century ago? And when Beersheba is called Palestine, the children are picturing Biblical history?

Another new book teaches what must be done for “occupied Palestine” and the “stolen homeland”: “Islam encourages this [love of homeland] and established the defense of it as an obligatory commandment for every Muslim if even a centimeter of his land is stolen. "I, a Palestinian Muslim, love my country Palestine...” [Islamic Education, sixth grade, Part A, p. 68]

The complete and total message Palestinian children are taught is that Jews, according to Allah, are like donkeys; Israel is a colonial occupier who stole their land; the cities, lakes and deserts of Israel are “occupied Palestine”; and they, the children, have an obligation to liberate it “even if a centimeter is stolen”.

All the above messages are found in new schoolbooks written and published by the PA since 2000. The first claim that new PA books are “proper” is flagrantly untrue. However, the majority of the books still in use by the PA schools are books they republish under the symbol of their own Ministry of Education, that were written by Jordan. These books include the following hate promotion:
“One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal.”
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade p. 79, these and below from CMIP report]
“I learn from this lesson: I believe that the Jews are the enemies of the Prophets and the believers.”[Islamic Education, Part Two, for Fourth Grade p. 67]
“Remember: “The final and inevitable result will be the victory of the Muslims over the Jews.” [Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade p. 67]
“The clearest examples of racist belief and racial discrimination in the world are Nazism and Zionism. “ [The New History of the Arabs and the World, P. 123]


Here is my "favourite" also not just "political"

quote:

"Marketing Ashes" -
The Fable of the Holocaust

Introduction:
This article defining the Holocaust as a “fable” appeared just days before Holocaust Memorial Day in the official daily, and includes the following:

o The Holocaust “history” is a “fable.”
o The Zionists use the Holocaust fable for political and financial profit.
o The Jewish controlled media in the West perpetuate Holocaust myths.
o The 6 million figure is a lie as “the vaults in the camp could not have held even one percent of that number”.
o The Jews brought the European anti-Semitism on themselves because Zionism needed a unifying factor against assimilation.
o The Palestinians are the true Holocaust victims.


And many more can be found on http://www.pmw.org.il/

So I completely disagee that it's not main stream. I also don't think you will find the same degree in Israel mainstream society.

However, my point was that the hate (on all sides) needs to stop. Hopefully once there is peace and a Palestinian state then the hate will fade away. But to minimize it's existence is just, with great respect, factually incorect.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 06 July 2005 09:51 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
I don't think this i sth ekind of "political" bias you would find in US textbooks.

The first time Itamar Marcus and the Palestinian Media Watch came up in these threads I did a little research. Marcus himself lives in a West Bank settlement and is a close ally of Sharon and Netanyahu. His bias is obvious and easily evident in his work.

Much of his research on Palestinian teaching materials was called into question when it was discovered that he was cherry-picking his facts and overlooking minor details like the fact that some of the textbooks he was criticizing for having inaccurate maps weren't prepared by the PA. They were hand-me-downs from neighbouring Arab countries. They were old and long since out of date. Much of the bias Marcus claimed was inherent in the Palestinian school system was actually the result of it being too poor to have up to date teaching materials.

And no, I'm not going to bother going back out to find all the links in support of this. You can believe me or not, Peech. I'm posting for the benefit of the others who read this.

Edited for clarity.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 09:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Look Peech, that entire JP article is an example of exactly what I am talking about, except for the excerpted parts about Islam. The article is also almost entirely editorial content. All of this:

quote:
The new PA schoolbooks that Shaath was so positive about, also teach that Israel has no right to exist, de-legitimizing Israel as a foreign occupier, compared to colonial Britain: “Colonialism: Palestine faced the British occupation after the First World War in 1917, and the Israeli occupation in 1948 …”[National Education, sixth grade, p. 16].

Etc. is about a political analysis. This is not antisemetism. This is saying that Palestinian history must conform to what is taught in Israeli schools. What is being said is that the PA text books must conform to the Zinoist narrative. Also, it reiterates the whole bogus issue of maps once again, even though I specifically critiqued this in my last post that you are responding to.

I think you are aware that I think the Zionist narrative is largely false, and I have presented evidence from several Israeli historians, elsewhere, that conform much more closely to the conception of history portrayed in the Palestinian text in question than the counter history used by the JP.

I referenced in the past Illan Pappe, and Benny Morris. Have you looked into, "Israeli Historians ask: what really happened fifty Years ago," by Illan Pappe, that I linked to previously, or are we just going over the same old stuff one more time?

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 09:59 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

Yes I agree that part is political except the denial of the right of Israel to exist invites extremism. Hate begets hate. But the other examples (donkeys, killing and Holocaust denial)are nasty pieces of hate (note I am avoiding th word anti-semitism) and yes I did look at some of your sources which is why I said the hate must stop on ALL SIDES. Again once there is peace, a Palestinian state and security in Israel then the hate will evaporate (hopefully). I think you would agree with that.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is a map provided by the Israeli Ministry of Tourism.

This is better than some I have seen, as there are demarcations between the West Bank and Gaza and the rest of Israel. But is it clear that these zones are not part of Israel? no.

Notice the Golan heights has simply become the Hulla valley, and it is all the same colour and there is no real distinctions between the zones as not being part of Israel. Is this incitement to hate?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Tour haifa.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

Tour the Holy land: Israel


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:10 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Here is the one I was really lookig for...

The West Bank and Gaza have disapeared here on the InfoTour -- Israeli Tourism and Recreation Web Site, it is Samaria. What could more readily support the contention of Palestinian School books of Israel's imperial designs, other than there complete erasure from the maps produced at the behest of the Israeli establishment.

Is it a hate crime Peech?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 10:10 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

Looks like a good tour.

Aples and oranges.
Look I have your point but nowhere in the tour or map is the call to arms to "liberate the heathen or infidels" from the holy land. This is the message in the Palestinian dogma

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html

So let's just agree to disagree BUT can we agree all hate must stop no matter the source?

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 06 July 2005 10:12 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:


I agree that the Nazi regime must be held up to the world as an example of evil to overcome. However I disagree with it being permissible to compare Israel (a nation founded largely by survivors of the Holocaust).


The idea that Israel was founded by Holocaust survivors is a myth. Zionists had been colonizing Palestine for more than fifty years before the first refugee from Hitler's Germany set foot in Palestine. And they were far from being universally welcomed. As refugees rather than pioneers, they were often objects of scorn. "Poor human material" was the ugly phrase used by Zionists to describe the new arrivals.

I suggest Tom Segev's "The Seventh Million" for a full discussion of the complex relationship of Zionists to survivors.

quote:
To do so is to throw that horror directly into the victims and their descendants faces (which was the point of my Rex Murphy quote above). It's also an emotional issue because most descendants of survivors (including myself) know that their family tree ends at a point when this unspeakable evil began.

There have been many examples in Israel's history of the Holocaust survivors themselves standing up and making the comparison. Regardless, hurt feelings are not a good reason to leave idle any truthful words which could stir into activity the moral sense that lies idle for many.

quote:
As for the Jews "owning" the Holocaust ...it's an interesting point. Elie Wiesall said "while not only Jews were victims all Jews were." (or something like that.)

I'm glad you brought up Mr. Wiesel, whose hypocrisy is a prime example of how Zionists first pervert the meaning of Hilter to make it all about Jews, then twist the true meaning of the Holocaust (“Whenever men or women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must - at that moment - become the center of the universe”) to it opposite ("The nations that kept silent during the Holocaust ought to keep silent now as well. The world that then condemned itself by its silence has lost all right to judge Israel now.")

Mr. Wiesel is a terrorist (who worked for the Irgun before, during and after Deir Yassin), thug and hypocrite who uses the Holocaust to advance what he believes are Jewish aims. The task of finding meaning in the Holocaust must not be left to the likes of him.

quote:
The point is that although Gypsies, Communists, Gays etc were also victims, the Holocaust was designed and intended to cleanse Europe of ALL Jews.

So are you implying that they planned to leave a certain number of gays and gypsies (and the mentally ill and invalids and others) alive in their Brave New World? And in any case, what difference does it make? An extremity of suffering does not grant either a person or an entire religion the exclusive right to judge the perpetrator.

quote:
Furthermore the Catholic church has made great attempts to Universalize the Holocaust as an effort to whitewash it's complicity and even case of the Holocaust. It blamed the jews for centuries for a whole host of wrongs starting with decide.

Sounds like a new thread to me. Whatever the Catholics' motives, do you deny that the Holocaust is universal in its lessons? That it could happen again? That Jews may not necessarily be its targets any more than Germans will necessarily be its executioners?

quote:
So while I totally agree the Holocaust must be remembered by all in an effort to learn and never repeat any kind of genocide (Sudan Rwanda etc) but an attempt to trivialize or universalize it (ie "we suffered too...never mind the Jews") is a very slippery slope indeed.

You've lumped in "trivialize" with "universalize." An odd equivilence! The reality is that all serious efforts to understand the Holocaust are forced to universalize it. Unless we realize that the forces that spawned the Holocaust are everywhere and in all of us, we have not yet begun to learn from it.

The reality of the "universal" Holocaust versus the "Jewish" Holocaust is not a Gentile saying "we suffered too...never mind the Jews." It is a Jew saying "we suffered as no one else has ever suffered . . . never mind the Palestinians." It reduces the Holocaust to a blank check for evil people with the good luck to be Jewish.

Both of the quotes above, you will have guessed, come from Mr. Wiesel. They might approxiamately be called the universal and the Jewish views of the Holocaust. You might also call them two ideas about the Nazis, one which will bring the shadow of Hitler anywhere where racism and evil must be shamed, and the other which sees the Nazis as some sort of monstrous "get out of jail free" card for the Jewish people. These ideas contradict each other, so you have to chose which, to you, is the moral truth of the matter. To me, the choice is clear.

PS: Happy Holidays to you, although for me the Fourth these days is more like a day of mourning for the spirit of 1776, now in retreat across the land.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well of course, but 'hate' has a dimension that must not be confused with analysis, or variance of view or legitimate criticism.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

I am afraid that all I can agree with from your last post is that it is a universal lesson indeed.

Sorry the 4th no longer has the resonance it once had.

PS
Sometimes I think we Canadians are too smug and I fear we may be headed for a similar reality...after all "everyone" loves to shop at Walmart !
(But that' another thread)

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CUE: OK...I got it .. Yes I agree. It's a question of degree.

(Somtimes I'm sooooo slow.... )

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 July 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Cue:

Looks like a good tour.

Aples and oranges.
Look I have your point but nowhere in the tour or map is the call to arms to "liberate the heathen or infidels" from the holy land. This is the message in the Palestinian dogma

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/slideshowimages/slide1.html

So let's just agree to disagree BUT can we agree all hate must stop no matter the source?

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


But the second map I posted has religious content as well: Tour the Holy Land / Israel.

Israel is the Holy Land apparently. Internal to that statement is a whole lot of religious connotations regarding Israel's ownership of the Holy Land, metaphysically and materially.

And in point of fact, PLO propoganda, the philosophical ideas which served as the basis for the foundation of the PA, eschewed the religious construct largely in favour of a secular construct. Arafat went through great lengths to assert his representation of Christian Palestinians and in fact married a Christian (later converted I believe.) The rise of the PLO's arch enemy Hamas in the Gaza Strip was largely the result of the government of Menachem Begin alliance with the Muslim Brotherhood under the tutelage of Sheik Ahemed Yassin in the 1970's.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 06 July 2005 10:38 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

The first time Itamar Marcus and the Palestinian Media Watch came up in these threads I did a little research. Marcus himself lives in a West Bank settlement and is a close ally of Sharon and Netanyahu. His bias is obvious and easily evident in his work.

Much of his research on Palestinian teaching materials was called into question when it was discovered that he was cherry-picking his facts and overlooking minor details like the fact that some of the textbooks he was criticizing for having inaccurate maps weren't prepared by the PA. They were hand-me-downs from neighbouring Arab countries. They were old and long since out of date. Much of the bias Marcus claimed was inherent in the Palestinian school system was actually the result of it being too poor to have up to date teaching materials.

And no, I'm not going to bother going back out to find all the links in support of this. You can believe me or not, Peech. I'm posting for the benefit of the others who read this.

Edited for clarity.

[ 06 July 2005: Message edited by: pogge ]


Here is a piece from the IHT:

link.

quote:
At the political level, a U.S. Senate subcommittee on Palestinian education and the Political Committee of the European Parliament have both held hearings on the matter. No country's textbooks have been subjected to as much close scrutiny as the Palestinian.

The findings? It turns out that the original allegations were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks and incorrect translations. Time and again, independently of each other, researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.

The European Union has issued a statement that the new textbooks are free of inciting content and the allegations were unfounded. The IPCRI 2003 report states that the overall orientation of the curriculum is peaceful and does not incite to hatred or violence against Israel and the Jews, and the 2004 report states that there are no signs of promoting hatred toward Israel, Judaism or Zionism, nor toward the Western Judeo-Christian tradition or values.


I would also like to point out that, in addition to the anti-Palestinian ideas taught in Israel's state schools, the state of Israel funds a large number of religious schools in which students are indoctrinated in the ideology of the settlers.

The concept of "incitement" is much like the concept of "terrorism," for Zionists: when "they" do it, isolated incidents are treated as representative of the entire society; when "we" do it, it isn't even considered incitement at all.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 July 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

I would also like to point out that, in addition to the anti-Palestinian ideas taught in Israel's state schools, the state of Israel funds a large number of religious schools in which students are indoctrinated in the ideology of the settlers.

The concept of "incitement" is much like the concept of "terrorism," for Zionists: when "they" do it, isolated incidents are treated as representative of the entire society; when "we" do it, it isn't even considered incitement at all.



The cite is an OP Ed piece in the IHT. Very interesting BUT I cited actual quotes or examples of hate propaganda.

Again as I stated above hate = a question of degree. So anti-Palestinian dogma (I have no doubt it exists) is NOT equivalent in it's degree to the examples I gave (that all Jews are descendants of dogs and must die, broadcasting programs based on the Protocols of Zion, and holocaust denial). It's the extreme acts that I am referring to (ie Baruch Goldberg was a hate- filled murderer.) The different maps are both political propaganda but again as always a question of degree. I am not going to get deeper into this because it's clear we don't agree. But I gather from your (and Cue's) posts that we all have a common desire; to end bloodshed and that the common parties find a peaceful solution that includes an independent Palestinian state. I going out on a limb here when I say that maybe it's irrelevant who is entitled to hate more or less.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 July 2005 12:15 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The cite is an OP Ed piece in the IHT. Very interesting BUT I cited actual quotes or examples of hate propaganda.

I want to commend you for providing several sources of documentation to support your view.

What I saw in your sources was second-hand accounts of supposed anti-Jewish statements, mostly without context and in many cases paraphrased. We don't know what textbooks they are taken from or whether the statements have been translated correctly or the ideas paraphrased accurately.

They still deserve consideration, but I think the jury is still out as to whether these statements are "examples of hate propaganda" by Palestinians or, well, examples of hate propaganda by Zionists.

The studies cited in the Op-Ed found no incitement (according to the author). This kind of testimony also belongs in the category of interesting but not decisive.

What we really need is someone fluent in Arabic and trustworthy to review the textbooks as objectively as possible and look at the degree of bias (I'm sure there is some) and whether it rises to the level of "incitement."

At the same time, we need a Hebrew scholar to examine Israeli textbooks from state schools, religious schools, yeshivas, and the like, to look for the same things.

Lacking that, I think we have to leave the issue where it is. I think we agree that incitement is bad, even if we might disagree as to what constitutes incitement.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 07 July 2005 12:21 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:


The cite is an OP Ed piece in the IHT. Very interesting BUT I cited actual quotes or examples of hate propaganda.


The JP piece you quoted is almost all interprestation and op/ed.

Most of the quoted material would not be considered hate propoganda in other circumstance but have been interpreted to be such for the explicit purpose of vilifying Palestinians as Anti-semties by the JP. And that is the true purpose of the JP article you cited.

The fact that Syrian maps diverge with Turkish maps, and that Syria considers some border regions of Turkey to legitimately be within Syria, or that there is a divergent national narratives between the two peoples, is not evidence of anti-Turkish hate propaganda, nor would it ever be construed as such by any reasonable editorialist.

The attempt to identify the Palestinian narrative as being in-and-of-itself antisemitic hatred just by the fact of the existance is the actual hate propoganda. The term is being manipulated to locate the Palestinian world view in the same camp as that of Adolph Hitler, and is designed to raise the specter of the Holocaust in order emotionally manipulate readers into false sympathy. Such broad brushed vilification are nothing more than the very hate propaganda the JP says it is opposing.

Were the "journalists" at the JP simply to confine themselves to correcting what is wrong in Palestinian narrative, or present a different recounting of history, or present a counter narrative, that would be fine. But they do not, they make it out that for Palestinians even to pose a counter-narative is antisemtism and hate propoganda.

I mean: I am seriously going to make out that those Israeli maps posted above are evidence of hate propoganda against Arabs? For me to do so would be for me to vilify unreasonably the Israeli people and engage in a kind of hate propoganda of my own.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 July 2005 12:21 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
For example, this appears on one of the website you posted as an example of "incitement":

quote:
PA TV "Historical" series: Year 1956: 12-year-old boy reads essay he wrote [PATV, June 16, 2005]

Boy: "His mother cried and said, "my son! Swear to me! Don't leave me alone! I'm afraid you will be killed". Her son said to her, "Don't cry, my mother! Let me go and fight for the sake of the homeland. The enemy stole our beautiful land... We all must fight in order to redeem the lost paradise...We lived in joy and happiness, until the foreign enemy came and expelled us from our land, and we became refugees in tents. But we will return, by Allah's will!"’ His mother told him, "Farewell, my son. Allah be with you".’ He kissed her and left to fight, and fought until he became a Shahid [Martyr for Allah]".

Uncle: "Let me ask you, if they come and tell you, we will give you a very big house, car ...and money, just resettle there! Would you agree?"

Boy:" No!"
Uncle: "the homeland is greater than individual possessions."

[PATV, June 16, 2005]


National iberation, the patriot risks death, unselfishness, sacrifice. Are there any ideas in this historical fiction which would have been out of place at the Fourth of July celebrations just past?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 July 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

Thank you for your post. Yes I would agree with you about incitement and that we must be vigilant in condemning it no matter what the source. And vigalant to encourage dialogue for finding common ground and then hopefully even peace!
And on this note of consensus I must depart (leaving town for about 6-7 days.)

I'll miss you all but such is life!
Cheerio


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 July 2005 12:37 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

One final note before I pack, I would agree with this:

quote:
I mean: I am seriously going to make out that those Israeli maps posted above are evidence of hate propoganda against Arabs? For me to do so would be for me to vilify unreasonably the Israeli people and engage in a kind of hate propoganda of my own.

However once again it's context and degree. So in the context of a tourist pamphlet it's at the most insulting or inflammatory but it's not hate as it does not invite tourists to kill all Palestinians. (I hope!)

With respect, the JP article had actual quotes from text books in the context of an OP Ed piece.

I don't think the world view of the Palestinians is in the same camp as Hitler. That was never my intention. My point was that unfortunately hate exists and is being taught. I saw a doc which interviewed "failed" suicide bombers. It was clear that they wear filled with hate (and many other emotions). What gives me hope is when I hear Palestinians and Israelis both say enough is enough. (Soldiers who refuse to go to OT and Palestinians who refuse to support violence).
All that remains now is for the majority to feel the same way.

Now I must go.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 July 2005 02:06 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have to disagree. Questioning the "right" of Israel to exist is not antisemetism, it is making a politcal analysis. Antisemetism is preaching that Jews are trying to control the world through a conspiracy of bankers and communists, etc.


Israel is a Jewish state that embodies all the hopes and aspirations of the Jewish people. To single out the Jewish state for extinction is in the opinion of the vast majority of Jews today's anti-Semitism.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 07 July 2005 02:37 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, that's the thousandth time you've said that here; repetition does not equal accuracy.


But let's clear this up, for the sake of consistency. Netanyahu, former PM of Israel, is on the record as opposing the creation of a Palestinian state. Do you agree that he is an anti-Arab racist, made worse by the position of power he has held and continues to hold?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 July 2005 03:19 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Israel is a Jewish state that embodies all the hopes and aspirations of the Jewish people. To single out the Jewish state for extinction is in the opinion of the vast majority of Jews today's anti-Semitism.

Yes, I know its long been one of aspirations of the Jewish people to destroy entire villages and expell their inhabitants.

We all know that the "hopes and aspirations" of the Jewish people include a state among the would's leaders in human trafficking, corruption, and prostitution.

I'm sure in the dark days of the Russian pogroms, fathers said to their sons: "Never lose hope, son, for someday we will find a people even more wretched and disorganized than we are. And we will ring their towns and villages with humilation outposts -- checkpoints they will be called. And pregnant women we be left to die there, so awesome and pitiless will we be in our might."

And the son will have asked "Will the baby die, too?"

Father: "Not at first, but our glorious Jewish men will not allow the baby to pass through to the hospital, so it will die of complications."


"[A]ll the hopes and aspirations of the Jewish people." What nonsense. Who are you to say what all the aspirations of Jews are? Do you know the mind of every Jew in the world? Or is that unnecessary, since you have decided that those who believe that the state of Israel is a nightmare, not a dream, are traitorious and do not count? It's a racist idea: no one would claim that Germany imbodies "all the hopes and aspiritions" of Germans, or Italy of Italians, or Russia of Russians. How much more ridiculous is it to attribute such a magical quality to a state in to which most Jews have never visited and have no wish to reside in?

This idea, which you've presented before, that the state, in some mystical way, imbodies "the people," the Volk, not through ordinary democratic expression of their will, but as their ultimate representative on earth, is Fascist, literally.

Part and parcel of this idealogy is the idea that people exist for the state, rather than the other way around, hence the idea of "extinction"; not the extinction of the Jewish people, or any people, but the "extinction" of "the Jewish state" i.e., democracy and an end to citizenship based on race.

The birth of democracy always brings with it the extinction of the concept of government that has preceeded it. Since that concept of government in this case priviledges Jews over non-Jews, it is natural that it should be popular with many Jews. But if they think it's anti-Semitic to be for racial equality, they're deluding themselves. And so are you.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 07 July 2005 04:17 AM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
i am outraged, to the point of having to wipe spittle off my monitor, at what this thread has become.

homophobia, no matter the philosophical leanings of the perpetrators, is a hatred of humanity for it's very diversity, no better nor worse than any other bigotry or racism that does, or ever has, or ever will, exist.

to reduce this to a "well, your bigots are worse than my bigots" argument is physically sickening...

...almost, though only barely, as much having urine & feces thrown at you for simply being who you are.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: 'topherscompy ]


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 07 July 2005 07:45 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Don't worry, 'topher... they progressed beyond the queers loooooooooong ago. They'd rather have this fresh, illuminating and original debate along these hithertofore unexamined lines. This is fresh rhetorical ground they're covering; don't cramp their style!

You're just delegitimizing their inherent right to sanctimonious hyperbole! How *could* you? Are you some kind of anti-semantic revisionist? Next thing, you'll be dredging up the Protocols of the Sellers of Pylons (and other such necessary and useful items for demarcation and appropriation). Appalling! Shocking!

It is readily apparent that you have approached this discussion with preconceptions and biases that are incompatable with the aims and objectives of the Muddled East Forum. Obviously, you are one of those "useful idiots" that the anti-Pylonists like to use to obfuscate things and muddy the issues until the original discussion is all but forgotten.

Now why don't you be a good chap and run back and play in the "babble banter" section and leave this to those who are experts, m'kay? There's a good boy.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 07 July 2005 08:42 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is readily apparent that you have approached this discussion with preconceptions and biases that are incompatable with the aims and objectives of the Muddled East Forum. Obviously, you are one of those "useful idiots" that the anti-Pylonists like to use to obfuscate things and muddy the issues until the original discussion is all but forgotten.

This is of course extremely fucking funny. "Muddled East Forum," and "anti-Pylonists."


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 07 July 2005 06:09 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
This is of course extremely fucking funny. "Muddled East Forum," and "anti-Pylonists."

Thanks, Q-Ball!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 July 2005 10:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

Yes, I know its long been one of aspirations of the Jewish people to destroy entire villages and expell their inhabitants.

We all know that the "hopes and aspirations" of the Jewish people include a state among the would's leaders in human trafficking, corruption, and prostitution.

I'm sure in the dark days of the Russian pogroms, fathers said to their sons: "Never lose hope, son, for someday we will find a people even more wretched and disorganized than we are. And we will ring their towns and villages with humilation outposts -- checkpoints they will be called. And pregnant women we be left to die there, so awesome and pitiless will we be in our might."

And the son will have asked "Will the baby die, too?"

Father: "Not at first, but our glorious Jewish men will not allow the baby to pass through to the hospital, so it will die of complications."


"[A]ll the hopes and aspirations of the Jewish people." What nonsense. Who are you to say what all the aspirations of Jews are? Do you know the mind of every Jew in the world? Or is that unnecessary, since you have decided that those who believe that the state of Israel is a nightmare, not a dream, are traitorious and do not count? It's a racist idea: no one would claim that Germany imbodies "all the hopes and aspiritions" of Germans, or Italy of Italians, or Russia of Russians. How much more ridiculous is it to attribute such a magical quality to a state in to which most Jews have never visited and have no wish to reside in?

This idea, which you've presented before, that the state, in some mystical way, imbodies "the people," the Volk, not through ordinary democratic expression of their will, but as their ultimate representative on earth, is Fascist, literally.

Part and parcel of this idealogy is the idea that people exist for the state, rather than the other way around, hence the idea of "extinction"; not the extinction of the Jewish people, or any people, but the "extinction" of "the Jewish state" i.e., democracy and an end to citizenship based on race.

The birth of democracy always brings with it the extinction of the concept of government that has preceeded it. Since that concept of government in this case priviledges Jews over non-Jews, it is natural that it should be popular with many Jews. But if they think it's anti-Semitic to be for racial equality, they're deluding themselves. And so are you.


I simply cannot believe that no one here challenges this crap.

Many may have disagreements with Israeli policy but this is nothing but sheer unadulterated hatred against the Israeli people.

This poster engages in vilificastion of an entire people. He spits poison and hatred against an entire group of people. He then tries to turn it around by claiming that those Jews (and yes it is clear that the vast majority of jews support a Jewish state)who support Israel as a Jewish state are fascists. I wonder if this will be permitted to stand here. I really wonder.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 07 July 2005 11:10 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, this I think might be honest misinterpretation.

I took all of this:

quote:
posted 07 July 2005 03:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Macabee:
Israel is a Jewish state that embodies all the hopes and aspirations of the Jewish people. To single out the Jewish state for extinction is in the opinion of the vast majority of Jews today's anti-Semitism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I know its long been one of aspirations of the Jewish people to destroy entire villages and expell their inhabitants.

We all know that the "hopes and aspirations" of the Jewish people include a state among the would's leaders in human trafficking, corruption, and prostitution.

I'm sure in the dark days of the Russian pogroms, fathers said to their sons: "Never lose hope, son, for someday we will find a people even more wretched and disorganized than we are. And we will ring their towns and villages with humilation outposts -- checkpoints they will be called. And pregnant women we be left to die there, so awesome and pitiless will we be in our might."

And the son will have asked "Will the baby die, too?"

Father: "Not at first, but our glorious Jewish men will not allow the baby to pass through to the hospital, so it will die of complications."


To be hyperbole. He's saying Jews, as a whole, do not want this through the rest of the post.

Now, I think rs is harder on the Israeli public than I would ever be, but I understand that anger. It is the same anger and bewilderment I feel when I look at the US and say "How could they do this? How could allow themselves to be used like this?"

However, I'm sure you won't take any of that. Not you. You bully.

You shouldn't even be here in the first place, after lying about, slandering, and defaming the good people of this board.

Have the courage to answer my question: Is Netanyahu, the man who denies the right of the Palestinians to a state, Israel's former PM and currect FM, an anti-Arab racist?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 07 July 2005 11:16 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
This poster engages in vilificastion of an entire people.

Actually, no he doesn't. He engages in vilification -- quite vehemently and with loads of sarcasm, I'll admit -- of your particular characterization of the state of Israel and of your claim to speak on behalf of "the vast majority of Jews" (did you win an election I missed?).

And your response is to pretend that he's done something else and to pretend that there's something wrong with the rest of us if we don't immediately pile on him. Maybe that's because you don't have an answer for him.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 July 2005 11:16 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
It is the same anger and bewilderment I feel when I look at the US and say "How could they do this? How could allow themselves to be used like this?"

[thread drift]How indeed? As an American I am ashamed. As a person I am frightened. As a man I am outraged.

The path that America is on is terrible.[/thread drift]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9723

posted 07 July 2005 11:18 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You see? You see? This is why I stay away from the Middle East forums. Because you have a nice little thread about homophobic idiots in Israel, and the next thing you know, it turns into the same old garbage.

Here's an example of some on-topic, related posts:

"I find this to be another example of the sort of extremism one finds on the religious right. How terrible."

"This post reminds me of a film I saw several years ago called 'Trembling Before G-d'. This film looks at the relationship gay and lesbian orthodox Jews have with their religion, which is often a very tenuous one. Worth seeing."

"I hope this doesn't deter future pride parades from happening in Israel, and around the world."

Etc., etc...

Here are some examples of shitty, bad, unrelated posts:

"bla bla bla all Arabs are anti-semitic bla bla bla Israel is a great democracy bla bla bla"

"bla bla bla Israel is a faschist state bla bla bla state terrorism bla bla bla settlers bla"

I hope you understand how I feel now about this. A perfectly nice, interesting thread rhetoricized into oblivion.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 July 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pogge you dont need to win an election to understand intuitively that Jews support the Jewish state. Those miniscule few who do not are only the exception that proves the rule.

And as for Netanyahu I certainly question his position. I disagree with him. He does not believe there should be a Palestinian state. He is wrong in this belief. When a Palestinian state is created and if Netanyahu then advocates for its destruction/elimination etc as many dio here of the Jewish state that exists recognized by almost all world governments the I will certainly believe he is anti-Palestinian.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
pogge
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2440

posted 07 July 2005 11:25 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Pogge you dont need to win an election to understand intuitively that Jews support the Jewish state. Those miniscule few who do not are only the exception that proves the rule.

And I don't need to have a degree in logic to know that all your claims to represent millions of people here mean nothing. An argument from popularity is a logical fallacy even if you could prove that "the vast majority of Jews" are substantially in line with your opinions. Which you've never done. Your intuition carries about as much credibility as your credibility, which isn't much.

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: pogge ]


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 07 July 2005 11:29 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Pogge you dont need to win an election to understand intuitively that Jews support the Jewish state. Those miniscule few who do not are only the exception that proves the rule.

And as for Netanyahu I certainly question his position. I disagree with him. He does not believe there should be a Palestinian state. He is wrong in this belief. When a Palestinian state is created and if Netanyahu then advocates for its destruction/elimination etc as many dio here of the Jewish state that exists recognized by almost all world governments the I will certainly believe he is anti-Palestinian.


Macabee, you are a full-blown hypocrite.

From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 July 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sticks and stones Coyote. Never asked you to agree with me but if you want to call me names go ahead. Schools out so what the hell.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 07 July 2005 11:47 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You can't even bring yourself to call one of the worst leaders of Israeli society, one of the greatest proponents of settlement and Arab expulsion, a racist. You are truly lost.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 08 July 2005 12:01 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Pogge you dont need to win an election to understand intuitively that Jews support the Jewish state.

I'd rather not take any more part in this thread, but the idea that "intuition" is a significant part of state-making is an unusual twist on nationalism theory.

I'm not sure that Gellner, Kedourie or Kohn ever went so far.

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 08 July 2005 12:01 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MartinArendt:
I hope you understand how I feel now about this. A perfectly nice, interesting thread rhetoricized into oblivion.

Martin—

I gave up on this thread. Please continue the discussion about the homophobic asshats over here..

I understand your frustration, as the Head Pylonist is back...

quote:
This poster engages in vilificastion of an entire people. He spits poison and hatred against an entire group of people. He then tries to turn it around by claiming that those Jews (and yes it is clear that the vast majority of jews support a Jewish state)who support Israel as a Jewish state are fascists. I wonder if this will be permitted to stand here. I really wonder.

*sigh*

I guess I am just a lowly anti-semantic, though. Hope you stop by the other thread...


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 08 July 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[QB]

I'd rather not take any more part in this thread, but the idea that "intuition" is a significant part of state-making is an unusual twist on nationalism theory.

I'm not sure that Gellner, Kedourie or Kohn ever went so far.
[QB]


It's the new Zeitgeist.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 08 July 2005 11:44 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Pogge you dont need to win an election to understand intuitively that Jews support the Jewish state. Those miniscule few who do not are only the exception that proves the rule.

One:

My beef with every smartass who misuses that quote is that the original reads: "the exception disproves the rule."

Two:

Your one-size-fits-all shoehorning of every single Jewish person's complex ideas, thoughts, motivations and emotions into a lazy hand-waving assertion is immensely patronizing and, frankly, stupid.

However I have come to expect that from the Grand Admiral of the Obtuse Fleet himself.

quote:
When a Palestinian state is created and if Netanyahu then advocates for its destruction/elimination etc as many dio here of the Jewish state that exists recognized by almost all world governments the I will certainly believe he is anti-Palestinian.

You love throwing around all these qualifiers and if-this-but-thats. Can you just once make a categorical yes or no statement and be done with it?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'topherscompy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2248

posted 08 July 2005 12:02 PM      Profile for 'topherscompy        Edit/Delete Post
mishabee, fucking go away already.

just fucking go away.

you are a bigot of the first order, and in your obfuscation of the issue presented at the outset of this thread, you only prove yourself again.

i held back from naming you in my previous post, but it is you - almost singlehandedly, though (unintentionally, i am sure) aided by some of your common detractors, what has removed this thread... and many before it, from the op.

just fucking go away, kid. we have all heard your rantings many a time before, and you have added nothing new since, i don't know... 2? 3? 4? years ago.

we don't like you here, the vast majority of us think you are a pompous ass... it has nothing to do with your religion or personal philosophy, just the fact that you are a dick. a fucking grade a dick.

just fucking go away.


From: gone | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 08 July 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I'd rather not take any more part in this thread, but the idea that "intuition" is a significant part of state-making is an unusual twist on nationalism theory.

I'm not sure that Gellner, Kedourie or Kohn ever went so far.

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]



They were probably antisemites.

Wow, that's easier than it looks...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 6914

posted 08 July 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'topherscompy:
mishabee, fucking go away already.

just fucking go away.

you are a bigot of the first order, and in your obfuscation of the issue presented at the outset of this thread, you only prove yourself again.

i held back from naming you in my previous post, but it is you - almost singlehandedly, though (unintentionally, i am sure) aided by some of your common detractors, what has removed this thread... and many before it, from the op.

just fucking go away, kid. we have all heard your rantings many a time before, and you have added nothing new since, i don't know... 2? 3? 4? years ago.

we don't like you here, the vast majority of us think you are a pompous ass... it has nothing to do with your religion or personal philosophy, just the fact that you are a dick. a fucking grade a dick.

just fucking go away.


Word.


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 08 July 2005 03:57 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MartinArendt:
You see? You see? This is why I stay away from the Middle East forums. Because you have a nice little thread about homophobic idiots in Israel, and the next thing you know, it turns into the same old garbage.

Here's an example of some on-topic, related posts:

"I find this to be another example of the sort of extremism one finds on the religious right. How terrible."

"This post reminds me of a film I saw several years ago called 'Trembling Before G-d'. This film looks at the relationship gay and lesbian orthodox Jews have with their religion, which is often a very tenuous one. Worth seeing."

"I hope this doesn't deter future pride parades from happening in Israel, and around the world."

Etc., etc...

Here are some examples of shitty, bad, unrelated posts:

"bla bla bla all Arabs are anti-semitic bla bla bla Israel is a great democracy bla bla bla"

"bla bla bla Israel is a faschist state bla bla bla state terrorism bla bla bla settlers bla"

I hope you understand how I feel now about this. A perfectly nice, interesting thread rhetoricized into oblivion.


I'd have to say I mostly agree, and I'm sorry for contributing to the thread drift.

It's possible to defend a lot of it. What happened at the gay pride parade has everything to do with Jewish fundementalism, and with the culture of violence and harassment which did not spring forth full-grown from the skulls of homophobes. And once you bring in those two things, of course, you're off and running.

But I have to concur with the people who complain that this and other interesting threads get hiajacked and become depressingly familiar. I blame two things; the people who drop flagrantly false and inflammatory claims and accusations into the discussion, and just as important, the people like me who can't laugh it off and lauch themselves into impassioned refutations which, unfortunately, probably only serve to further inflate the swollen heads of those gifted with attention their inaccuracy and libelious rhetoric do not warrent.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 08 July 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

Word.


Yes Mish, leave us in Peech. Peech, although I find his political position to be worse than yours. That I think is mostly because he doesn't play games and doesn't mouth politcal corrrestness occaisionally for the audience, but every once in a while we get a sincere; "Oh I see your point."

But I guess that is the difference between real Israelis and wannabees, the real Israelis really want to resolve the situation, and they really do care, supporing Israel is not just some kind of jacked up messianic sop used to fill an existantial void for them, it means something to them. It is where they were born.

I can't think of the number of Israelis, real ones, who would never even bother to try and excuse Netanyahu -- even his supporters will tell you that Bibi is racist -- they will tell you that is one of the things they like about him.

I'll take that anyday over your preverication.

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 08 July 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by 'topherscompy:
mishabee, fucking go away already.

just fucking go away.

you are a bigot of the first order, and in your obfuscation of the issue presented at the outset of this thread, you only prove yourself again.

i held back from naming you in my previous post, but it is you - almost singlehandedly, though (unintentionally, i am sure) aided by some of your common detractors, what has removed this thread... and many before it, from the op.

just fucking go away, kid. we have all heard your rantings many a time before, and you have added nothing new since, i don't know... 2? 3? 4? years ago.

we don't like you here, the vast majority of us think you are a pompous ass... it has nothing to do with your religion or personal philosophy, just the fact that you are a dick. a fucking grade a dick.

just fucking go away.


So let me understand this, if I point out that a person might engage in anti-Semitic speech I am pilloried , I am called stupid, demands for me to leave are posted , I get PMs with the same demand etc ad nauseum. The moderatord permit it to continue I suppose as a way to balance the fact that at least they accept the need for discussion and yes balance.

This troll calls me a bigot (mostly because I support the Jewisg state truth be told) and that's OK? Ok I see how it works but hell even in the confused minds of those here who love to hate me this is a bit much. Never mind. As the good "Dr" says Ive come to expect it herEdited to add: Oh and Topher you first

[ 08 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
MartinArendt
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9723

posted 08 July 2005 10:23 PM      Profile for MartinArendt     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, for heaven's sake!

This thread has become tremendously rude, off-topic, and generally ridiculous. The issues brought up here should be brought up to the moderator, or through appropriate discussion, or through starting up a new thread.

Sigh. Plus, I posted something on the other thread (that is actually kind of on-topic), and nobody read it. So now I'm sad.

(a lonely tear drops from the eye)


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 09 July 2005 12:41 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by MartinArendt:
Sigh. Plus, I posted something on the other thread (that is actually kind of on-topic), and nobody read it. So now I'm sad.

(a lonely tear drops from the eye)


Awwww... I read it. I just haven't formulated my response yet. And I appreciate your thoughts.

[edited out. I spent 20 minutes writing a plea to Maca/Mishabee that I realized (afterwards) would *never* change his heart. Mac is a TROLL. Why is he still here?)]

Audra?


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 09 July 2005 03:43 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
The moderatord permit it to continue I suppose as a way to balance the fact that at least they accept the need for discussion and yes balance.

I'm beginning to wonder. Seriously. Why DOES *anyone* put up with your bullshit? If we want an opposing view to "play ball with", I'm certain we could find someone more capable than you...

Or are the people e-mailing me correct? Is there more to this than meets the eye?

'Coz I'll tell you something bigot... it doesn't add up that this board would let someone like "writer" sit out while you are allowed to continue to spread your venemous bullshit. That is not a fair trade-off.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 13 July 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

... no one would claim that Germany imbodies "all the hopes and aspiritions" of Germans, or Italy of Italians, or Russia of Russians. How much more ridiculous is it to attribute such a magical quality to a state in to which most Jews have never visited and have no wish to reside in?

This idea, which you've presented before, that the state, in some mystical way, imbodies "the people," the Volk, not through ordinary democratic expression of their will, but as their ultimate representative on earth, is Fascist, literally.

Part and parcel of this idealogy is the idea that PEOPLE EXIST FOR THE STATE, rather than the other way around, hence the idea of "extinction"; not the extinction of the Jewish people, or any people, but the "extinction" of "the Jewish state" i.e., democracy and an end to citizenship based on race.

The birth of democracy always brings with it the extinction of the concept of government that has preceeded it. Since that concept of government in this case priviledges Jews over non-Jews, it is natural that it should be popular with many Jews. But if they think it's anti-Semitic to be for racial equality, they're deluding themselves. And so are you.


Amen. I wholehartedly agree!!!!!!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca