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Author Topic: Sharon serious about Gaza disengagement
Macabee
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posted 30 June 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Commenting specifically on pictures of the extremists stoning the Palestinian youth, Sharon said: "This bothers me exceptionally. This is an act of savagery, vulgarity and irresponsibility. These are not the acts of settlers, but of Kach members, who come mainly from outside [Gaza] ... Such things must be stopped. We cannot let a small group of lawbreakers impose a reign of terror."

Ha'aretz

Ariel Sharon has begun to evacuate Gaza of Settlers. He is putting his life both politically and literally on the line to do so.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 June 2005 08:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
He still dosen't get my respect.

Sharon will soon annex 58% percent of the West Bank and intensify the occupation there.
Sharon is more interested in water than he is in peace.

quote:
Ariel Sharon has begun to evacuate Gaza of Settlers. He is putting his life both politically and literally on the line to do so.

[ 30 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 30 June 2005 08:39 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm not even certain the Gaza pullout will work.

Arik might back down, given the religious ferver of the fundamentalist whackjobs who oppose him.


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Cueball
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posted 30 June 2005 10:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ariel Sharon has begun to evacuate Gaza of Settlers. He is putting his life both politically and literally on the line to do so.


He is doing so unilaterally and without the engagement of the other group of persons who are deeply affected by this, the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip. By doing so reasserts that it is the government of Israel and the Israeli people who decide where, when and how any withdrawal is conducted, thereby elminating the possibility that the Gaza pullout might be construed as a precedent whereby Israel will compelled withdraw from other territories it holds and has settled illegally, or that Palestinians have any rights to demand such.

This withdrawal goes hand in hand with continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank, and leaves the Palestinians with an economy devestated by Israeli occupation without compensation. Sharon has simple moved the prize to a different shell, in his shell game and risks sweet fuck all.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 30 June 2005 11:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes of course as usual, Israel/Sharon always wrong. Israel even when by most of the world's reasonable standards begins to create an enviroment for co-existance, there will be those here who can see only poison.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 12:01 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think your pushing the envelope there on the Israel is "always wrong bit" but you are right about Sharon. He is a completely dispicable murderer, war criminal, and land developer come fraud artist. He is a piece of shit. He should have to wait in line to use the washroom with Slobodan Milosovic at the Hague.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2005 12:06 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh Cueball who knew you could wax so poetic. I wish however you wouldnt claim them as my words or thoughts. That would be a lie and you dont lie.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 12:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arik Sharon should be rotting in jail, not shaping government policy.

If not blowing up Arab families up in their homes, or getting his Christian Felangist comrades to run through Palestinian refugee camps slaughtering all and sundry like so many cattle or simply grinding the West Bank into dust through an unending policy of land expropriation and occupation he is ripping off ordinary Israelis with his land scams.

He is a right little fucker, that is for sure. You are right.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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Macabee
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posted 01 July 2005 09:06 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball will be permitted to troll here for what reason exactly?
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 10:35 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This is trademark Sharon brinksmanship such as dragging his blood soaked boots up the Al Aqsa mount in 2000, he is simply amputating the finger in an attempt to save the hand. There is nothing of value in Gaza, except Arabs who have been made angrier and angrier by the repeated violations of their human rights, the destruction of their homes and wanton airial slaughters, sometimes directed personally by the sadist himself. Calling him a troll is an insult to their kind, however.
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WingNut
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posted 01 July 2005 10:52 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Because Sharon is Israeli, Macabee can defend a war criminal. I notice, in true form Mac, you take up the least important argument of those raised.

quote:
Sharon will soon annex 58% percent of the West Bank and intensify the occupation there.
Sharon is more interested in water than he is in peace.

The settlement and confiscation of the West Bank goes on unabated by Israel under the war criminal Sharon, and you focus on the evacuation of the outdoor prison - as expectd.

You say you support a two state solution but everyday the possibility of a viable Palestinian state is eroded by Israel under the war criminal Sharon and you are silent.

You are an unashamed Israeli apologists, And if it were not for Sharon wanting the settlers out of Gaza he would be defending the beating of that teenager as self-defence against terrorism and you would be apologizing for him.

One Palestinian teenager is beaten and Sharon suddenly notices. How many are dead?

quote:
Between September 29, 2000, and November 30, 2004, more than 1600 Palestinian civilians not involved in hostilities, including at least 500 children, were killed by Israeli security forces, and thousands more were seriously injured.8 The IDF informed Human Rights Watch that as of May 10, 2004, it had criminally investigated just seventy-four alleged cases of unlawful use of lethal force, less than 5 percent of the civilian deaths in nearly four years of what is commonly known as the al-Aqsa intifada, or uprising.(9) As of June 6, 2005, the IDF had not responded to a February 2005 request for updated information on indictments and convictions since its May 2004 communication.(10)



The real Sharon and his Israel

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: WingNut ]


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Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 11:08 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Did you see they finally convicted an IDF soldier with manslaughter for killing Hudnall? I posted a link to the story on the threadyou started about IDF investigations. Of course "the first soldier to be convicted of manslaughter in the current intifada," is Bedouin.
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Macabee
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posted 01 July 2005 11:17 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
This is trademark Sharon brinksmanship such as dragging his blood soaked boots up the Al Aqsa mount in 2000, he is simply amputating the finger in an attempt to save the hand. There is nothing of value in Gaza, except Arabs who have been made angrier and angrier by the repeated violations of their human rights, the destruction of their homes and wanton airial slaughters, sometimes directed personally by the sadist himself. Calling him a troll is an insult to their kind, however.


Cueball continues his trolling


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 11:34 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arik Sharon began his blood thirsty career as a member of the IDF special forces Airborne commandos. There he excelled at his job, disenfrachising Arabs of their lives and their property, in a small Arab village. There, the troops under his command laid dynamite around the Arab homes, while ensuring that the villagers remained inside by firing the weapons at the exits. This scene, the Dutch UN head of peacekeeping forces in Israel said, was consitent: the bodies near the door, and the doors filled with bullet holes, indicating that attempts by the Arab famlilies to exit their homes before demolition were directly interdicted by Sharon's band of blood-thirsty killers.

Sharon, always the liar as well as a bigot, later denied any knowledge saying he was shocked that so many had died in their homes.


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Insurrection
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posted 01 July 2005 11:36 AM      Profile for Insurrection     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Cueball continues his trolling

Well, for all the trolling Cueball has been allegedly doing, I think he has brought up some important issues that I'm concerned about like how is continued expansion of settlements in the West Bank, and the occupation of illegal settlements creating an environment of "co-existence" (I wasn't exactly clear on your definition of "co-existence")? Also how is a unilateral disengagement without the engagement of Palestinians of the Gaza Strip, creating an environment of "co-existence"?


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DrConway
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posted 01 July 2005 12:15 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They convicted an Israeli soldier for bumping off a Palestinian? Did he get four days in prison subtract off time served plus a compassionate discharge from the IDF?

WOW! JUSTICE HAS BEEN SERVED, FOLKS!


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Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 12:25 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They convicted an Arab soldier serving in the IDF with manslaughter. Just as the longest time handed down to an IDF soldier for another killing (not manslaughter presumably because the victim was not a British subject but an Arab) was also to an Arab.
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Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But this thread is about Butcher Sharon, we should not destract from the theme of the thread, by talking about the lawless nature of the Israeli occupation, and the institutionalized racism against Arabs that is also manifest in the IDF, itself.
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Albion1
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posted 02 July 2005 05:15 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ariel Sharon has begun to evacuate Gaza of Settlers.


Why wasn't this done along time ago? Why leave now?


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 02 July 2005 05:16 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ariel Sharon has begun to evacuate Gaza of Settlers


Is Sharon also going to be pulling out of the West Bank as well?


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Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 06:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No.
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Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 07:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Israeli drivers by now come equipped with iron bars to open the roads blocked by the settlers: after all, we have a right to move freely in our own land. But Palestinian violence always remains incomprehensible to us. Surely they don't suppose they have any right to move freely in their own land; and even if they do, is this a reason to become violent?!

[SNIP]

The settlers obeyed the state only as long as it obeyed them. Having been used by Israel as its Freikorps, as the thugs who do the dirty jobs the state is unable or unwilling to do for itself, the overflow of settlers' traditional violence into the heart of Israel is a natural development. As the Jewish writer Albert Memmi experienced and described so well during the French colonization of Tunisia, "Every colonial nation carries the seeds of the Fascist temptation." Those deadly seeds flourish these days in Israel.


The Seeds of Fascism


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 July 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can Isreal get the water it needs without disinfrachising arabs living in the West Bank?

[ 04 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 04 July 2005 06:14 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Good question. Personally, it seems to me that for all the expense involved in desalination, it would still be cheaper than a whole military-industrial complex.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 04 July 2005 07:00 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
OK, so why don't they do that? If the people running the occupation were real Zionists they would see that maintaining a millitary presence in the territorys is a futile exercise in nationalist stupidity and focus on disalanation.
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ohara
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posted 05 July 2005 12:56 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I too would hope that Israel pull out of the territoris and beging more work on desalinization. But would that suffice those like Al "ubong and others? Some how I just dont think so.
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Coyote
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posted 05 July 2005 02:37 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't speak for others, but frankly that is the game to me. I don't think any kind of reasonable peace can be negotiated until the occupation is over, until Israel has fully withdrawn to the Green Line (or on a 1:1 basis agreed to by the PA). Once the occupation is ended, peace can start to have a say.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 July 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But would that suffice those like Al "ubong and others? Some how I just dont think so.

Gee O'Hara; thanks ever so much for dragging me into this thread.


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Cueball
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posted 05 July 2005 01:12 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I too would hope that Israel pull out of the territoris and beging more work on desalinization. But would that suffice those like Al "ubong and others? Some how I just dont think so.

Most Babblers would like to see de-Sharonization, more than anything else.


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ohara
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posted 05 July 2005 02:45 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Most Babblers would like to see de-Sharonization, more than anything else.



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Peech
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posted 05 July 2005 03:59 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I don't think a solution to peace the Middle East depends upon one person (such as Arafat, or Sharon). It's way more complicated than that.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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posted 13 July 2005 09:45 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have a very old atlas at home. I looked at the map of Israel and it had all these funny coloured lines through the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Where it said "West Bank" it had Jordan's name underneath and under "Gaza Strip" it had Egypt's name underneath.

Something tells me these lands once belonged to two other countries.

I JUST HAD AN IDEA!!!

Why not give the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. Then let the Jordanians and Egyptians deal with the Palestinians.

I bet they don't want the problems that Israel has had so I bet that Egypt and Jordan will give the lands to the Palestinians and thus we have a Palestinian country.

Jesus, why didn't anyone think of this before??


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 July 2005 10:41 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They were thinking about giving Jordan the West Bank, or more precisely the bad bits that they did not want.

However, Jordan's King Hussein is a Hashemite whom are the royalty of the Arabian Peninsula from a nation called the Hedjaz. They are related but not the same as the Syrians whom the Palestinians are part of. The british attempt to impse Hashemite rule throughout the Syrian territories had mixed result. They shuffled Faisal (T.E. Lawrences buddy and Hussein's of Jordan's brother,) from Syria proper to Iraq, after it was discovered that the French wanted to keep Syria for themselves. He was unseated in Iraq in 1958 by Quasim, who was later gotten rid of by Saddam's people. However they did succeed in imposing Hussein on Jordan.

Be that as it may the Hussein is not very popular with the Palestinians, and seen as another occupier, only marginally less preoblematic than the Israelis (Just can't win for losing, eh?} In 1970 there was a revolt of the PLO in Jordan, which had been sponsoring the organization, and Arafat and numerous Palestinians ended up in Lebanon. Because of the problems Jordan gave up its claim to Jordan to the West Bank.

Who needs more Palestinians when they are the rebelious majority ethnic group in your country?

Enter the PLO and Arafat as the main negotiator for Palestinians with Israel in 1987, the 1st Intifada led by Hamas and the idea for the "two state" solution, and Oslo.

I hope that calrifies things.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 July 2005 11:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hedjaz.

Is that a tribal affilation or an ethnic group?


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Cueball
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posted 14 July 2005 05:47 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Its a region of Saudi Arabia. Mecca is in it. The Hashemites are from the same set of Tribal groups as the Saudis. They were the Sherrifs of Mecca. After a short period of independence the Hedjaz was conquered and incorporated into Saudi Arabia, after ww1.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 14 July 2005 04:01 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
conquered by who?

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 14 July 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Albion1:
I have a very old atlas at home. I looked at the map of Israel and it had all these funny coloured lines through the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Where it said "West Bank" it had Jordan's name underneath and under "Gaza Strip" it had Egypt's name underneath.

Something tells me these lands once belonged to two other countries.

I JUST HAD AN IDEA!!!

Why not give the West Bank to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. Then let the Jordanians and Egyptians deal with the Palestinians.

I bet they don't want the problems that Israel has had so I bet that Egypt and Jordan will give the lands to the Palestinians and thus we have a Palestinian country.

Jesus, why didn't anyone think of this before??


Sweet Jesus.

Somebody get this man a reading list.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 14 July 2005 07:23 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
conquered by who?

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]



The House of Saud.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 16 July 2005 10:43 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Letter in Ha'aretz about the settlements

quote:
But you came at the urging of the government of Israel, a government whose "greatest" security people, headed by Ariel Sharon, anticipated the problems in the Gaza Strip and conceived the "five fingers" plan to split the area by means of Jewish settlements. Because a Jewish settlement is always, always the border, the last furrow.

What bombast. *barf*

But the interesting thing is the feeling of betrayal among the settlers because now Sharon is at least talking a good game of withdrawing them.

quote:
And the worst of it is that behind these winds is the same person who sent you, us. The same person who morning and evening explained to us how vital it was to settle the barren land, the accursed land; the same person whose feverish brain conceived the "five fingers" plan, the same one who already cut off one finger - Yamit - and sent its uprooted people to Gush Katif, too.

And now Sharon gets pilloried.

quote:
So you have no choice. Get up tomorrow morning, go back to the hothouses, which you have been cultivating for many years. Go back to your saplings, go back to your land, the Eternal One of Israel will send you a blessing, because the Eternal People is not afraid of a long road.

Oh, Lord. Manifest Destiny wrapped up in new clothing. All we need now is a few choice descriptions of the "charming natives" that need to "be converted to the light", and it's the Wild Wild West all over again.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
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posted 16 July 2005 10:50 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I don't think a solution to peace the Middle East depends upon one person (such as Arafat, or Sharon). It's way more complicated than that.

I agree. But you will note the entire Israeli and US political systems seized on just that with regard to Arafat. Remember? "The Obstacle to Peace"? The obstacle to peace couldn't possibly the occupation and slow but steady theft of land and resources. Not in Bush "they hate us for our freedoms" land.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged

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