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Author Topic: Lebanese Communist Leader killed in bombing
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 June 2005 01:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
George Hawi, a Christian who often spoke out against Damascus meddling in Lebanon's affairs, died instantly as he rode in his car through the Wata Musaitbi neighbourhood of Beirut.

According to the CBC, and almost anyone else one might consult, Hawi was an "Anti-Syrian" politician.

If all we had to rely on was the Western media, we would likely lap up this slant, and say it tastes true. Fortunately, there are other sources.

quote:

Lebanese Communist Party leaders seem to be blaming Israel for the assassination of George Hawi. George Hawi remained close to LCP leaders and members after his resignation in 1993, when he became very active in construction business (utilizing his ties to the former Soviet Union).

He was indeed a dynamic personality in Lebanese politics although I do not approve--as I said yesterday--of his past hardcore Stalinist rigidity or his new Christian sectarian flexibility. I could not believe that statement of the US embassy over the death of Hawi. They only identified him as anti-Syrian, although his position toward Syria was more nuanced than the right-wing opposition. But he was much more than that. Did they forget to remember that he spent his entire life fighting (literally in many cases) against Israel and US plots and wars in the Middle East? They made him sound as if he was a right-wing militia type.
How deceptive.

I remember the words he wrote in September 16th, 1982 when the first communique of the Lebanese National Resistance Movement (against Israeli occupation) was issued (co-written with Muhsin Ibrahim, the head of the Lebanese Communist Action Organization) and it said that Israel and US do not want Lebanon to be "sovereign, free, or independent." Those words still ring true today, propaganda efforts notwithstanding.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 23 June 2005 02:19 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes it is interesting how everyone has to fit into the religious model applied to mid=east conflicts. He is a Christian, not a communist in the first report.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 June 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Placing the CBC's actual coverage of an event in a poor light by your "comparison" to an obscure Blogg (appropriately entitled "Angry Arab News Service") filled with gossip, unnamed sources innuendo and hearsay as a "source" is indeed unfortunate but interesting.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How can one be Stalinist and sectarian at the same time?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2005 05:02 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I thought that was the definition of a Trotskyite. [ducks]
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'lance
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posted 23 June 2005 05:02 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Trotskyist, comrade, Trotskyist!!
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2005 05:05 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Spaceba bolshoi, tovarich." I'm out of practice when it comes to identifying and denouncing fellow leftists. My bad.
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skdadl
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posted 23 June 2005 05:10 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Before I join in the sectarian games, my sorrow at Mr Hawi's assassination, and my continuing sorrow for Lebanon.

However, N.Beltov:

quote:
his past hardcore Stalinist rigidity or his new Christian sectarian flexibility

CMOTD asked how one could be both at the same time. In my memory of the Communist Party, no probs, eh?

That sort of thing was definitely not a Trotskyist game.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 23 June 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not to speak for him, but perhaps CMOTD was wondering how one could be Stalinist (meaning, presumbly, atheist) and sectarian in the Lebanese (or other) religious sense.

But it's not unknown for a person to move from one to the other:

quote:
...past hardcore Stalinist rigidity or his new Christian sectarian flexibility.

(emphasis added)


From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2005 05:29 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Actually Josef Vissaronovich Djugashvilli (Stalin) was, before he became a Bolshevik, a seminary student and a prospective church functionary. I've always felt that his religious background in such a conservative institution (the church in pre-revolutionary Russia was very reactionary) was a contributing factor to his future meglomania and fanaticism. Before Stalin was Stalin he was probably sectarian as all hell.

No slight towards Lebanon or trivialization of Hawi's death was intended, skdadl.


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 23 June 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, N.Beltov, I knew that you did not mean to slight Mr Hawi, as neither did I.

My point was rather that the great, one might almost say opportunistic?, shape-changers of the last century were much more likely to be products of Stalinist CP parties than of Trotskyist groupings.


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N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I'm using "sectarian" as a negative description here but the Angry Arab blogger wasn't. Edited to add: I think he was and I just misread him. The entire quote is:
quote:
He was indeed a dynamic personality in Lebanese politics although I do not approve--as I said yesterday--of his past hardcore Stalinist rigidity or his new Christian sectarian flexibility.

What does Christian sectarian flexibility actually mean, anyway? A Christianized democratic centralism? That would seem to substantiate skdadl's view.

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: N.Beltov ]


From: Vancouver Island | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 06:25 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Not to speak for him, but perhaps CMOTD was wondering how one could be Stalinist (meaning, presumbly, atheist) and sectarian in the Lebanese (or other) religious sense.

Got her in one!


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
N.Beltov
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posted 23 June 2005 07:18 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stalin doesn't get the credit for the separation of the state and religion in my books, even if the SU under Stalin was officially atheistic. Stalin made a religion of himself in the form of a cult of personality, which is something his predecessor, among others, rejected.
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al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 June 2005 08:44 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think one of the points that As'ad AbuKhalil was making is that there is a tendency in the Western media to make facile generalizations such as if one is a Christian Lebanese, one must therefore be anti-Syria.

I think that outside forces are at work in Lebanon, and nothing good will come of their interference. With the stabilizing presence of Syria removed, the possibilities for strife have increased - which may be the plan:

quote:
For Lebanon's 400,000 Palestinian refugees, UN Security Council resolution 1559, and all that has followed it from unrest in Beirut to Syria's withdrawal, has been met with grave concern.

"I am very pessimistic about my future here," says 18-year-old secondary school student Wael Issa, who lives in the Palestinian refugee camp of Wavel, popularly known as al-Jaleel, just south of Baalbeck.

"I am very worried that they might target us after Syria. It's all laid out in 1559: Syria ... Hizb Allah ... then us."


Anxiety grips Palestinians in Lebanon

And on the PR front, the ironies continue:

quote:
The United States sharply increased pressure on Syria, indirectly linking it to "targeted assassinations" of political leaders critical of Damascus. Meanwhile, opposition parties in Lebanon want the United Nations to intervene after the assassination of the former head of the Communist party Georges Hawi in Beirut.

link

Israel signals renewed assassinations
quote:
"The attempt yesterday to kill an Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza signalled the resumption of the targeted killing policy," an Israeli security source said.

From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2005 09:18 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
[QB][/QB]

Ya that's the ticket Israel did it.

And you guys wonder why I feel that some of you are totally preoocupied with demonizing Israel? This is of the same ilk as the Mossad being responsible for 911/SARS/Aids.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 23 June 2005 09:30 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Is he still here? Can someone do something about that, please?
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 09:37 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Don't feed the trolls.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How big is the Lebanese communist party?
I find it fascinating that in a country built on sectarianism, there would be room for a paty based on authoritarian secularism.
How is it possible for The Party to exist in the Labanese political system at all?

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
'lance
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posted 23 June 2005 10:11 PM      Profile for 'lance     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The short if glib answer, perhaps, is just simply that Lebanese politics are very complex.
From: that enchanted place on the top of the Forest | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 23 June 2005 10:49 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Is he still here? Can someone do something about that, please?
Yes get rid of me so there wont be anyone to at least challenge when asinine conspiracy theories are put forward blaming Israel for God knows what.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 23 June 2005 11:24 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
No, get rid of you because you damn well crossed the line. You're a troll, Mac. Live with it.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 23 June 2005 11:42 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It's quite obvious to anyone who isn't here merely to disrupt and deflect, that the purpose of my juxtaposing an article in which a US government official blames nefarious Arabs for targetted killing and another article that notes how Israel is resuming its targetted killing of nefarious Arabs (without similar criticism by US government officials) is to demonstrate the uneven way in which Middle Eastern affairs are treated in the West.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 June 2005 12:43 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
never mind

[ 24 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2005 01:05 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This isn't much of a moral question on babble. Most of us are completely against the idea, as we are completely against Capital Punishment.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2005 01:17 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Just to make sense of my latest post; what Peech deleted went something like, "It would be an interesting moral question whether there are cases when targetted killings would be justified."
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 24 June 2005 01:18 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wow, Peech. Did you not want to go through with the ramifications of that question? It was a good one.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 June 2005 01:25 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
Just to make sense of my latest post; what Peech deleted went something like, "It would be an interesting moral question whether there are cases when targetted killings would be justified."

Actually what I said something more like "the moral question is can there (ever) be a case for targeted killing just like some may justify capital punishment" to be more precise. And It was more of a philosophical musing or rhetorical question. But I suppose those who believe in capital punishment (I do not) may justify them.
Interesting book "One Day In September" by Simon Reeve is an expose on the 1972 Munich Massacre (by Black September) and the targeted killings in revenge. The misery was terrible on both sides. A very compelling read.

http://www.de44.dial.pipex.com/sr/page0/page3/page3.html

[ 24 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 June 2005 01:26 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I wanted to clarify it. But yes, I guess it is an interesting question.

[ 24 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 24 June 2005 01:47 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I suppose if one would want to dispense with concepts such as "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" it might be considered an interesting question.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 24 June 2005 05:08 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I suppose if one would want to dispense with concepts such as "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" it might be considered an interesting question.

Just for the sake of argument (because if you read my post it would not be possible to deduce that I am for targeted killings) the "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" are wishful thinking in the Middle East. But perhaps others will find it interesting.

[ 24 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 25 June 2005 01:26 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[URL=http://www.selvesandothers.org/article9981.html ]Robert Fisk comments on Hawi's death[/URL]
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 June 2005 03:07 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Just for the sake of argument (because if you read my post it would not be possible to deduce that I am for targeted killings) the "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" are wishful thinking in the Middle East.


Right. Arabs are savages. Enough said.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
NDP Newbie
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posted 25 June 2005 04:13 AM      Profile for NDP Newbie     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
If Hawi was a Stalinist, the world is a better place without him.
From: Cornwall, ON | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 25 June 2005 04:40 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That's right; LIQUIDATE THE STALINISTS!

Good grief.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 25 June 2005 12:35 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
While Stalanism was surely a despotic and I would say evil mind set I agree that we must find ways to change minds not eliminate.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 25 June 2005 12:54 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" are wishful thinking in the Middle East.

Hmmmn. We have a contradiction here. Macabee would certainly not agree with that statement.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 25 June 2005 07:11 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I do not understand what you mean Skdadl in terms of a "contradiction". Why does it matter if Mac agrees with Peech or not? Do they not have the right to their seperate opinions?

You see this is what I have been trying to point out to some of you. There can be those of us who generally support a two-state solution, rights for the Palestinians within that context and yes believe it or not amongst us we can disagree even passionately.

As far as some of you here are concerned anyone who shows the least bit of support for Israel's right to exist within the two-state framework as a Jewish state are all lumped into the same basket. That is precisely what I mean by intolerance.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 25 June 2005 07:25 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As far as some of you here are concerned anyone who shows the least bit of support for Israel's right to exist within the two-state framework as a Jewish state are all lumped into the same basket.

Wrong. And hence, Ohara; generalisations like these are the problem. And why some us can't post in the Middle East threads anymore.


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 25 June 2005 09:21 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Ohara, most of us are two-state supporters, or at least are not completely opposed to a two-state solution. If you don't pay any attention to what we actually say, why should accord you the least respect? You certainly do not show it to us.

Macabee proved this in the other thread, where he implied that somehow that babblers are soft on American or British (read: Iraq) abuses but hard on Israel. Well, he's wrong; and he'd know he was wrong if he paid any attention to what we said about the issue. It is HE that is obsessed with Israel, and with spinning things in his favour. You aid and abet him in that process, which a shame.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 25 June 2005 09:55 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
I suppose if one would want to dispense with concepts such as "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" it might be considered an interesting question.

Hey, it's a serious moral question. If violence is ever justified, then there must be times when it is all right to kill someone, and presumably having a specific target doesn't automatically make it evil.

We should praise and encourage trolls who offer substansive questions for discussion; positive reinforcement for good behavior, people!


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 26 June 2005 05:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Coyote and others I dont believe I claimed that Babblers have not taken on both Britain and the USA. Of course you have. My contention was different. I have held that Israel is focused on out of proportion to all others. It has basically its own thread (yes as does the USA but that is part of my point, given the USA and all of its world impact surely it cannot and should not be compared with Israel)and in proportion I still believe Israel has much more attention paid to it.

Ohara and peech, while I appreciate your support dont put yourself in a position where those who would want to shut you or I down have reason to do so.

To those who insist I'm a troll or worse a "stooge" for the Israeli propoganda machine
, I can only assure you my thoughts and feelings are simply my own. Hate the thoughts hate the messenger its all the same I guess. For my part I will do my best to contiue supporting a two-state solution, one that brings peace to both Paleatinians and Israelis. I can only hope that most Babblers and lurkers will do the same.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Wilf Day
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posted 26 June 2005 06:09 PM      Profile for Wilf Day     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Israel is focused on out of proportion to all others. It has basically its own thread . . .

Well, I was told once that a post on Afghanistan belonged in the Middle East thread. As far as I can see the Middle East includes the whole Arab world, likely Iran too, sometimes Turkey, arguably the Islamic parts of the Caucasus, with occasional incursions into Central Asia.

[ 26 June 2005: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]


From: Port Hope, Ontario | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 26 June 2005 06:11 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Mac! The "proportions" would change a lot if you would ever contribute to my threads about Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. Eh?

Like, a few of us try. And what is happening there right now is very serious.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 26 June 2005 11:33 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:


Ohara, most of us are two-state supporters, or at least are not completely opposed to a two-state solution. If you don't pay any attention to what we actually say, why should accord you the least respect? You certainly do not show it to us.


Most people on this board are anti Zionist, and believe wholeheartedly in a one state solution, but I sincerely doubt that anyone here is stupid enough to lump Ariel Sharon in with Uri Avnery. We have never said that all Zionists are entirely alike.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 27 June 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CMOT say most here believe in a one-state solution while Coyote tells us that most are two-state solution people. Is it any wonder we are confused? And Coyote who then not paying attention to what is being posted?

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2005 01:08 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I have held that Israel is focused on out of proportion to all others. It has basically its own thread...

And this thread's about Lebanon.

You brought Israel into it. Your narcissistic obsession with Israel not only clouds your perspective, it knocks threads about other places in the Middle East off track - or out of proportion if you will.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
miles
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posted 27 June 2005 08:48 AM      Profile for miles     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:
You brought Israel into it. Your narcissistic obsession with Israel not only clouds your perspective, it knocks threads about other places in the Middle East off track - or out of proportion if you will.

With respect Al-Q you brought Israel into it and I fail to see what any mention or quote about Israel and Gaza is relevant to the topic of this thread.

Unless you think that Israel was behind this killing as well.

Here is where you brought Israel into this thread. It was with this quote in an above post:

quote:
al-Qa'bong posted 23 June 2005 08:44
posted 23 June 2005 08:44 PM

Israel signals renewed assassinations
"The attempt yesterday to kill an Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza signalled the resumption of the targeted killing policy," an Israeli security source said.



Al-Q pot meet kettle


But back to the thread topic. What is really sad is that killings and violence continue in a country that was once the jewel of the entire Middle East

Hopefully peace will come to this jewel of a nation and I hope that Lebanon gets what it deserves eace and security for all of its residents

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: miles ]


From: vaughan | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 27 June 2005 09:13 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can we get this off the subject of Macabee's hobby horse and back onto the subject of Lebanon? Or is it time to close the thread?

And al-Q, the subject has been Israel's involvement in this killing right from your first post. It's true, that doesn't mean it has to go to the usual Macabeean "babble is full of anti-semites who believe in the one-state solution" crap, but to say that this thread was supposed to be about Lebanon and that Israel hasn't been central to the topic of the thread from the first is somewhat disingenuous.

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 June 2005 11:43 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
[nit]Correction: Are antisemites because they believe in the one state solution. [/pick]
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2005 12:01 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And al-Q, the subject has been Israel's involvement in this killing right from your first post.

Well, no, that is not the subject of this thread. Including reports that demonstrate that Hawi did not fit into a black-and-white Western-conceived role as a "Christian anti-Syrian" and nothing else does not make Israel the focus of that original post.

As I said earlier, my post was an attempt to show how the Western media have painted the region, and how stilted reports dumb down the issues there and give us the impression that there are only two sides (black hat vs. white hat usually) involved.

And then babblers leap in to confirm the media bias.

ed.] Miles posted:

quote:
al-Qa'bong posted 23 June 2005 08:44
posted 23 June 2005 08:44 PM

Israel signals renewed assassinations
"The attempt yesterday to kill an Islamic Jihad leader in Gaza signalled the resumption of the targeted killing policy," an Israeli security source said.


Yes, but your selective quoting left out why I posted that bit, which was:

quote:
The United States sharply increased pressure on Syria, indirectly linking it to "targeted assassinations"

Pot meet kettle indeed.

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 27 June 2005 12:20 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh please, miles simply noted that you were the first to bring Israel into the equation and you were.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 27 June 2005 12:56 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Fine. The word "Israel" was included in something I quoted.

Is it now safe to talk about Lebanon, and the views the media show us about the situation in Lebanon?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 27 June 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This notion of an 'anti-Syrian' does cover up important political points. Is it possible to be a "pro-Lebanese" Lebanese? Or is that something only reserved for us - as in "we really just want what's best for those poor, feuding Lebanese."

It's fascinating that successive interference in Lebanon, from France, to Israel, to Syria, to the U.S., is always 'pro-Lebanon' and yet it seems impossible for a man with credentials as solid as Hawi's to be so.

[ 27 June 2005: Message edited by: B.L. Zeebub LLD ]


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 27 June 2005 01:47 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
...the "Rule of Law" or "civilized behaviour" are wishful thinking in the Middle East.

One chance to clarify?


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by B.L. Zeebub LLD:

One chance to clarify?


Sure;

Which states in the middle east have: a "rule of law", or democracies? (not completely rhetorical)


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Right. Arabs are savages. Enough said.


Typical response. If Mac "jumps to conclusions" about your anti-Israeli agenda then he is labelled by you as a hack Zionist...but your obvious and one sided blinded bias is just fine because.....it's politically correct?

See below which is worth repeating here:

quote:
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 25 June 2005 12:30 PM

What I find sad Peech is that you seem to have identified the problem. Some on Babble do view this Board not for discussion but rather as "secret garden" open to only one view specifically when it comes to Israel.

Now for the record I surely do not believe that this is true for the vast majority of Babblers because on other thread I have seen a tremendous diversity of opinion. Even the dreaded maccabee agrees with many progessive issues outside the Middle East topic. But here Maccabbee is loathed, I would say feared because he (and you) have the audacity to buck the politcal way as expressed by those like Cueball, Al A'ubong, Hephestation and others.

Even those who on many other threads would agree with you and Macabbee when it comes to anything on Israel you are both shunned in a way that is very intolerant of your views.

Now that stated, I would say that from time to time Macabbee's passion gets the best of him/her/her and while I understand his/her feelings his passion is not just rejected but used against him/her. Despite the fact that I too may disagree with hisher feelings on what as he/she puts it "crosses the line" I would never engage in the intolerant rhetoric I have seen from some here.

Yes I guess I too may be pegged now for coming to your defence and understanding the despised Macabee but I am hoping that my words will have a sobering effect on some and help them realize that we are all not cut from the same cloth, that we have passionately held ideas and sometimes may say things that deeply disturb but to demand these people be silenced is neither the progressive way nor is it mature.

Just my thoughts as they may be.

ohara


[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2005 07:20 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
WOW
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 07:39 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry Peech I take grave exception to Ohara's sweeping characterization of anti-zionist poster's on this board.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 07:51 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Sorry Peech I take grave exception to Ohara's sweeping characterization of anti-zionist poster's on this board.

Cue:
I would agree to some extent. You for example. Although I don't (always) agree with your viewpoint, and find your opinions entrenched...I do believe you are willing to listen to the other side...which is more than a lot of others here. I think that was O'Hara's point and this has certainly been my observation.

PS: Don't be so grave. It's not becoming!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 01 July 2005 08:01 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
[Cueball — ]

Not only that, but this is utter horse shit:

quote:
But here Maccabbee is loathed, I would say feared because he (and you) have the audacity to buck the politcal way as expressed by those like Cueball, Al A'ubong, Hephestation and others.

I usually avoid the ME forum like the plague, as do most other babblers, because of how *EVERYTHING* in this forum seems to turn into a Arab-Israeli slanging match. My very first post in the ME forum (regarding the Pride parade in Jerusalem), I was "jumped" by the "Israel-can-do-no-wrong" crowd and smeared as an anti-Semite. I guess you can say my opinion of some of that gang of Israeli apologists has been rather low ever since, but I completely reject this bullshit character smear by ohara.

It's kind of typical of the tactics ussually employed by that bunch, though...

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Actually I get where you are coming from from your own words. As I recall you were "attacked" by "that bunch" of "apologists" for using the term "Jew-bomb". Even though if you bother to read the thread NO ONE condoned the anti-gay appalling acts. So I believe O'Hara was 100% right in the characterization of people like YOU!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 01 July 2005 08:06 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People's position are entrenched, but that is no reason that discourse can not proceed on the basis of the actualy views that people hold, as stated. Ohara's comments are nothing but an ad homenym attack.

But on the the issue of Macabee, it is my considered opinion that his position is based not on any logic of arguement, but on predisposition alone. This is evidenced by Macabee's consitent attempts to define arguements in terms of what is anti-semitic and what is not antisemtic, raising the charge in almost every thread and against any poster who challenges the actions of the Israeli state.

This is not the manner of a person seriously trying to engage in discusion, but that of someone articulating a view for its politcal effect, alone.

I find, even though I disagree with you on almost every one of the core issues, to be entirely different. It is clear that when new information is brought to your attention, or an arguement is clear, you at least admit the arguements validity, or recognize its cogency, even if you disagree with its conclusion.

Macabee simply changes the subject to a charge of antisemestism.

Frankly, I find this abuse of the meaning of antisemetism to be a dangerous politicization of what is a serious issue, for the benefit of supporting Israeli policy, not for defending Jews in general. By devaluing the weight of antisemetism by equating it not with bigotry against Jews, but with opposition to Israel and the policies of its government, Macabee and those who support this position, ironically, open the door antisemetism in the manner of the little boy who cried wolf -- it no longer becomes possible for lay-people to recognize the difference between criticism of the policies of a government, -- a prefectly legitimate practice recognized as such by people all over the world -- and bigotry, they will have heard it once to often to care, and simply dismiss the charge when and if it is actually appropriate.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 01 July 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
What l do you mean by "that bunch"?

I mean the Likudist morons who view ANY criticism of Israeli policies and/or actions to be free licence to scream "anti-Semite!" in an effort to squelch discussion and debate.

THAT bunch.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:18 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I agree and disagree with your last post. I think that the charge of anti-semitism is a dangerous and often over used accusation. But having said that it has been argued by many theorists that to: use an unequal standard , single out, use hyperbolle, use nazi or apartheid adjectives to describe or criticize Israel is bigoted and can be and has been considered-semitic. In short there is nothing wrong with criticizing (even harshly) Israel (I do it myself) but it's question of degree. I certainly do not think anything you have posted is anti-semitic. I think that's the problem It's a big subject so let's not diverge.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 08:19 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Actually I get where you are coming from from your own words. As I recall you were "attacked" by "that bunch" of "apologists" for using the term "Jew-bomb". Even though if you bother to read the thread NO ONE condoned the anti-gay appalling acts. So I believe O'Hara was 100% right in the characterization of people like YOU!
[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]

Nice try, asshole. The incident I was referring to happened back in 2004.

And the term "Jew-bomb" was NEVER used by me. Once again, you Likudist morons can't even get your facts straight.

Why do I bother coming to this fuckin' forum? You people are pathetic!


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:30 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Nice try, asshole. The incident I was referring to happened back in 2004.

And the term "Jew-bomb" was NEVER used by me. Once again, you Likudist morons can't even get your facts straight.

Why do I bother coming to this fuckin' forum? You people are pathetic!



Yes you are right I sincerely apologize for inferring that you were an ignorant ass hole based on incorrect information. But thanks to this post I can now be sure that you are an ignorant ass hole.
By the way your not fooling me or anyone with your use of the word Likud instead of some select expletives from your normal (but limited) vocabulary. I think you will find some kindred spirits slithering under a rock somewhere.

PS

You are the very reason why "we people" keep coming back to this forum. So suck it up!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes it was a really errie moment when Macabee responded to Hephastion by using a quote from Hinterland.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 08:37 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Likudnik! Likudnik! Likudnik!

Jeez, what fascism and thought-policing.

Anyway, you made that mistake Peech because all us gays look alike to you...homophobe!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 08:37 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
By the way your not fooling me or anyone with your use of the word Likud instead of some select expletives from your normal (but limited) vocabulary.

Well, at least you're showing some imagination... calling me an an anti-Semite without saying the actual words. Does this count as "progress"?

And by the way, when I say "you people", I am referring to assholes. No more, no less.

Asshole.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 08:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:

Anyway, you made that mistake Peech because all us gays look alike to you...homophobe!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Hinterland ]


You're post is too funny to take seriously. If you read my posts you would see that I condemed the acts against the gay parade. But I don't care about your sexuality ..or how much you get or not....

Israelphobe!
( 2 can play that game)

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 08:42 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hephaestion:

Well, at least you're showing some imagination... calling me an an anti-Semite without saying the actual words. Does this count as "progress"?

And by the way, when I say "you people", I am referring to assholes. No more, no less.

Asshole.


Never even thought to cal you an anti-semite. Just an ignorant jerk. Wouldn't glorify you with an actual idealogy. That would require you to have a brain. Moron.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 08:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Listen Peech. Hephastion is not an antisemite. On the last thread about the issue of the gay march in Israel he directly challenged me when I contextualized the events in the context of the Arab Israeli conflict. His interest is in defending the rights of gay people -- Jewish gay people in this context.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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posted 01 July 2005 08:43 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
Peech's cat: get off the computer!
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
Peech's cat: get off the computer!

LOL!!!!!!
Dog!!

Thanks. Now maybe back to the topic???????


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 08:45 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Ahhhh! You can tell the difference between Hinterland and me now? Well, this IS progress!

Homophobe.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 08:47 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
I'll check back when we're back on topic...or when the brats are taking a nap.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 08:48 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
I'm being infantilised. How oppressive. Fascist!
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:50 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Hinterland:

You are boring me now.
And running out of cliches.....
What next Capitalist, Imperialist?

(I'm shooing away my chien)
PS:
I actually really like you two...really!

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hinterland
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Babbler # 4014

posted 01 July 2005 08:54 PM      Profile for Hinterland        Edit/Delete Post
How about moron? Is moron good? Does moron work for you? Yes? No? Ok.
From: Québec/Ontario | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 08:55 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Hinterland:
How about moron? Is moron good? Does moron work for you? Yes? No? Ok.

Sure I can can call you that if you like. So from now on Moron-land. Works for me.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 08:55 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
I'll check back when we're back on topic...or when the brats are taking a nap.

Wassa matter? ad hominem attacks only acceptable when the Likud-apologists do it?

quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
What next Capitalist, Imperialist?

Ahhh, now we get into the Red-baiting?

Pish.....


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 08:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Red baiting would at least put the thread in the range of a discusion of the recently deceased former leader of the Lebanese Communist Party.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 08:59 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CUE:
you are so right. I apologize for the divergence.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 01 July 2005 09:03 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Heph:

Sorry I grew up in a Red household.
SO I guess the humour was lost on you.
And ok touche I get your Lekud point thank you.
(Even though I am more of a Labour supporter myself)


That's better than I've ever gotten from Mac. I'll take it. Truce.

And Cueball — thanx for the defense.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 01 July 2005 09:06 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Done Deal.

Now what does any one think is going to happen next in Lebanon?
http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=6391

And what about the Arar enquiry uncovering that Canada exchanged information with Syria?

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/30/arar050630.html

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 09:22 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
One of these people on this board, I can't remember wich, is really good on Lebanon, its Lance I think. Very detailed knowledge of a very complex situation.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 01 July 2005 10:19 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
But on the the issue of Macabee, it is my considered opinion that his position is based not on any logic of arguement, but on predisposition alone. This is evidenced by Macabee's consitent attempts to define arguements in terms of what is anti-semitic and what is not antisemtic, raising the charge in almost every thread and against any poster who challenges the actions of the Israeli state.


I have only been consistant on one point, those who want to rid the wrold of a Jewish state. Those who then utilize racist and nazi imagery to demonize Israel. Yea I have been consistant in believing that such postings are anti-Semitic. Now back to Lebanon

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 01 July 2005 10:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Now Peech look at what Macabee has just stated. Now go back to Al Q's original post, and find for me where Al Q:

a) Suggests that Israel should be "gotten rid of."

b) Uses racist or Nazi imagery to demonize Israel.

Nothing of this kind whatsoever.

But Macabee pulls out the old Anti-semetism canard right away, as soon as there is even the slightest suggestion that certain Israeli interests might have wanted the gentleman rubbed out, as they have rubbed out Palestinian opponents, something they do quite regularly and publically!

Macabee is quite simply completely insincere, and opportunistically jumps on anything at all as antisemtism, though he poses his objection as based in the plausibly reasonable grounds stated in the post immediately above.

He even goes so far as to lump us all together as fellow travellers:

quote:
And you guys wonder why I feel that some of you are totally preoocupied with demonizing Israel? This is of the same ilk as the Mossad being responsible for 911/SARS/Aids.

Now go through the thread carefully again, and look at what people are discussing up until Macabee's intervention. Are they talking about Israeli assassins? No. In fact the people on this board are talking about the history of the LCP, and making jokes about Trotsky and Stalin. Israel is a teenie-eenie-weenie element in one of the articles presented by Al Q.

Its sick and manipulative, because it is a complete misrepresentation of the discussion wich is 99.99% not even about Israel. Macabee is not interested in refuting the allegations raised with facts and evidence, or furthering the discussion. His entire approach is simply a propoganda exercise based on an ad hominem attack upon the messengers character.

It has taken me some time to come to this conclusion, and I for a long time took Macabee seriously as a person interested in discussion, but the reality is that this kind of double talk (saying he is doing one thing -- opposing Nazi imagery defending Israel right to exist -- but actually doing another -- attacking even the slightest suggestion of criticism of Israel) is so consistent, and the only possible conclusion is that Macabee is intentionally trying to deflect criticism of Israel by impuning people through slanderous accusations of antisemetism.

[ 01 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 01 July 2005 11:57 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

As a relative newcomer to the Babble here are my observations: people bring their very firm beliefs (and in some cases prejudices and bias) with them, people react to what others are saying (or what they "think" they are saying, and also from their previous experience with those people on other threads. Since we are all guilty of hasty or reactive postings (at least I am)there is some history to overcome. Now anti-semitism is a huge issue which many here have not had to deal with personally (except maybe being accused of it.) The problem with it is that it is often subjective. At some point criticism becomes hateful. It is also on the rise.

Here is a quote from Rex Murphy:

" So we have swastikas on Jewish homes in placid Toronto, we have the upsurge in assaults on Jews in Europe, and we have all too frequently in demonstrations almost everywhere in the world the placards and chants equating Israel and its government with its own demonic anti-type, the nazi-ism of Adolf Hitler. We have in effect the Holocaust, the mightiest engine of ethnic cleansing the world has ever seen, thrown in the face of the people who were its targets."

http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_040406.html

Therefore demonizing Israel for the mere pleasure of it is in dangerous waters. Now I agree on this particular thread I could at worst see biased or one-sided postings with innuendo. (ie look how western media connects Syria to the assignation but Arab media says it's Israel.) It's a question of degree. I get where Mac is coming from here....by using Hyperbole or exaggeration (Egypt, Saudi and many many "alternative" news services/web sites still say Masad, the CIA and the Jews were responsible for 911.) Al Kabong quoted from an alternative Blog entitled the "Angry Arab" for his reference that "many" believe Israel was connected to the assignation. (Arab media also blames Israel for Arafat's death.)So I can see how Mac connected the dots. Here's the rub Cue, you in a previous posting stated that Lebanon is a very complex issue. So why is it that the Israeli/Palestinian issue is so neatly black and white? I respectfully suggest that it is ideology which makes it so tidy. In reality it is very complex and requires much examination and patience by all sides to find a solution to end the bloodshed. That's my 3 cents worth. Now perhaps we can all find a way towards world peace?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 July 2005 12:13 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cue are you telling me that A Qbong does not advocate for a one-state solution? You know that this is tantamount to the dissolution/destruction/eradicaion/elimination call it what you will of the Jewish state of Israel. I hold as do what I believe are the vast majority of Jews, that this is tantamount to anti-Semitism. I have been perfectly consistant on this from day one.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 12:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Observing that the western press and the Arab press view things differently is not anti-semetism. Neither is taking the view that Arab opinion should be considered relevant.

For the last four years Israel has publically followed a policy of executing Arab Palestinian militants without trial. It is not so strange that one might "connect the dots" and suggest that Israel, under circumstance where it would be diplomatically inconvenient to publically have an Arab opponent snuffed out, might do so secretly. Especially given that Mossad was caught trying to kill the leader of Islamic Jihad in Jordan in the 90's, and also almost certainly killed one of the leaders of Hamas in Syria last year.

The weight of evidence certainly is not conclusive in this case, however, at first glance it is not unreasonable to suggest that Israeli interests (however manifested) might be a suspect, among a few others. It is not in any way shape or form comparable to the Israel-9/11 conspiracy theories, given that Israel has no history of fabricating such large scale plots involving the death of large numbers of its allies civilians. On the other hand it has a clear history of offing Arab leadership regionally.

Macabee knows all of that, and approves all of it, and his insistance that such a suggestion is part of a "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" type conspiracy charge can only be propogandizing.

Lets get real: Israel kills Arabs that are problematic for them. To say such is merely to state a well established fact that can be sourced on the IDF web site.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 02 July 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

I don't think you read my post as carefully as I wrote it. Do so again please. I am NOT condoning or denying targeted killings (I have here condemned them.) I am also not saying Al Kabong's post was antisemitic. I am pointing out that bias can prevail on BOTH sides of the coin which can get in the way of honest and open debate, Nothing more nothing less less.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 July 2005 01:10 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I do of course note with interest that Cue has not responded to my question. And that my friends is the rub. I have never quarelled about the legitimacy of criticizing Israeli policy as long as it does not degenerate into talk of eliminating the Jewish state.

Ah yes I may passionately disagree with you; I may passionately defend Israel but I have also condemned the continued occupation; I have berated religious fanatics both Jewish and Muslim who make peace near impossible; and when appropriate have criticized the IDF when it has acted in a manner unbecoming the state. Yes I have done all this but the fact that my detractors only see an "evil Zionist" is terribly sad.

I condemn those who would try to make the term "Zionist" evil. I am a proud Zionist as are most Jews from many Jewish trade unionists to Jewish leftists. However too many here disparage us for our simple support of the Jewish state.

I have been threatened with bannishment, called a racist (which I find deeply hurtful) a Zionist which is a badge I wear with pride, some have tried to paint me as a homophobe which is not just a lie but another hurtful one at that and all because in the heart of my hearts I support Jewish state of Israel. So be it.

My fellow babblers trust me when I tell you that Jews today will not turn the other cheek and quietly acquiece to the elimination of their homeland and Jewish state. They are prepared to live side by side with Palestinians in two states that recognizes the unique culture of each but Israel as a Jewish state is here to stay.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 01:11 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee's last post (Edited to amend: prior to this one above) is a perfect exmaple of his politcized insincerity. He is now trying to muddy the waters further, by introducing the rather tenuous link between the support of Palestinian/Israeli integration, with antisemetism. But I don' want to get into that.

He has made the charge that an antisemitic screed is being peddled on this thread. He then stated on what principles his charge is made. Now given that the definition of antisemetism he has given has been proven to be completely unrelatable to what has been said here right now, as he originally charged, he now tries to introduce other new evidence, to shift discussion and support his originally obviously spurious claim.

But that is not what Macabee originally asserted. He originally asserted that what Al Q. was saying here on this thread was antisemitic. He did not originally say that he thought that Al Q's support for an integrated Israeli/palestinian society was antisemitic.

This is why Macabee is generally disregarded as a petty annoyance here on this site. Rather than simply admit that there was nothing antisemitic in what Al Q. posted, and that he was mistaken, he insists on shifting the arguement, to try and show that Al Q. has said things that Macabee asserts are antisemitic, elsewhere.

The fact is that Al Q. made no statement on "states" at all in this thread, nor made comparisons to the Nazis or anything vaguely racist against Jews.

Add to this Macabee's is asserting that a "multicultural" policy is, in-and-of-itself antisemitic, and you can see how dangerous Macabees thesis is. By trying to make what are essentially policy decision of governement qualatitively into hardened aspects of cultural identity inseperable from "Jewishness," upon which opposition to such is "antisemetism" we see how the Macabees of the world will make antisemetism appear to others as merely the mundane rejection of a government policy as opposed to the horrendous bigotry against Jews, known as antisemetism, that fed the fires of the Holocaust.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 01:14 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Cue:

I don't think you read my post as carefully as I wrote it. Do so again please. I am NOT condoning or denying targeted killings (I have here condemned them.) I am also not saying Al Kabong's post was antisemitic. I am pointing out that bias can prevail on BOTH sides of the coin which can get in the way of honest and open debate, Nothing more nothing less less.


Sure I see that. But I am asserting that Macabee is purely "politcizing," not "discussing," and that his constant devaluing of the word antsemetism by applying it to all kinds of things willy-nilly is more dangerous to Jews the world over than Sheik Ahmed Yassin's little army.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 July 2005 01:21 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cue you are a very exasperating person. I did not call Al anti-Semitic. You choose to read into that fine but I did not claim such. I did not chalklenge any multicultural policy. You choose to read into what you drream in your head...fine with me.

Cue, perhaps it is possible within the context of a jewish state to have multiculturalim. The fact that you are blinded to this possibility is something you should examine.

I only ask that you stop putting your spin on my words.

And yes Cue as hard as it may be for you to believe there are many Jewish leftists out there (and yes Im sure you dislike them as much as you dislike me) who are striong and proud Zionists and who hold that engaing in advocay towards eliminating a Jewish state is 21st century anti-Semitism. I know many here want to stop me from holding that position but I can tell you that I am in very good company.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech, look how Macabee shifts, changes and lies, saying whatever comes off best without consitancy:

Here he says:

quote:
Cue you are a very exasperating person. I did not call Al anti-Semitic. You choose to read into that fine but I did not claim such. I did not chalklenge any multicultural policy. You choose to read into what you drream in your head...fine with me.


Meanwhile posted 02 July 2005 12:13 AM

quote:
Cue are you telling me that A Qbong does not advocate for a one-state solution? You know that this is tantamount to the dissolution/destruction/eradicaion/elimination call it what you will of the Jewish state of Israel. I hold as do what I believe are the vast majority of Jews, that this is tantamount to anti-Semitism. I have been perfectly consistant on this from day one.

In the last psot Macabee says he did not call Al an antisemite, after explicitly saying exactly that about Al's position on the nature of Israeli statehood, not 6 post above.

Even worse he claims to make it his right to partake in this shilly-shallying and lying in the name of the "vast majority of Jews." He associates these clear lies with you and with me. It is detestable.

Support Israel all you want, but never in the cause of rank hypocrisy and lies, like these above.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 02 July 2005 03:37 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
George Hawi...? Lebanon...? Nope. Once again, the thread has morphed into "All About Macabee, and His Specious Claims of Anti-Semitism".

That's why I rarely come to the ME forum, Peech, and never stay long when I do. It's *always* the same old shit. Macabee is like a dose of malaria — keeps bringing back the nausea, time after time after time.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 02 July 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cue you are a master propagandist. Indeed I should take lessons from you. Yes to advocate the dissolution of the state of Israel is IMHO engaging in anti-Semitism. Can an otherwise well meaning person inadvertantly do so?...yes. Can they be educated ...can we help them understand that such discussion (in the opinion of many Jews) falls into this category? I hope so (hope springs eternal).

That is what Im trying to say. And yes you can disagree with me and countless others but you cannot rob me of my honestly held opinion


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 02 July 2005 12:13 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you. I find that simply quoting the source that is offensive is usually the best means of undermining what is offensive about them.

In this case I was simply trying to underscore how even basic honesty, let alone intellectual or moral honesty, does not even enter into your opinions.

It is not even clear to me that you understand what honesty is, given that you have blatantly stated that a poster held what you consider to be antisemetic views, and then turned around and stated that you did not say that a poster had antisemtic views.

[ 02 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 July 2005 11:58 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
It is you who understands but there is more cache in twisting my words. You and those who continue this are incorrigible.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 04 July 2005 01:58 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
It would really be productive if we could have debate without accusations and hostility.
After all I think the commonality here is a desire for peace. A bit ironic.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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posted 04 July 2005 04:26 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Cue are you telling me that A Qbong does not advocate for a one-state solution? You know that this is tantamount to the dissolution/destruction/eradicaion/elimination call it what you will of the Jewish state of Israel. I hold as do what I believe are the vast majority of Jews, that this is tantamount to anti-Semitism. I have been perfectly consistant on this from day one.

You're doing it again.

You imagine the worst possible outcome to what you claim your opponent stands for and then you pretend that worst possible outcome is your opponent's goal. You put words in peoples' mouths and then condemn them for things for which they've never advocated. You do it consistently and you do it even after the error of your ways has been pointed out to you.

And you hide behind semantics. Parsing your own post to claim that calling a position "tantamount to anti-semitism" means you didn't actually call it anti-semitic is just silly. It's a distinction without a difference.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 04 July 2005 05:14 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
It would really be productive if we could have debate without accusations and hostility.

Too late. This is the 105th post, and this thread will soon be closed, most of it having been spent saying:

You're an anti-semite!

Am not. You're playing the same old games

That was intolerant and anti-semitic of you to say that!

You're a tool!

ad nauseum

Macabee has been doing this for years, and everyone keeps riding the same fokkin' merry-go-round with him. As I said above,

quote:
George Hawi...? Lebanon...? Nope. Once again, the thread has morphed into "All About Macabee, and His Specious Claims of Anti-Semitism".

And now it's damn near done. You wanna discuss George Hawi? Or Lebanon...? Start another thread, and this time ignore Macabee.

[ 04 July 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 July 2005 02:24 AM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
One can ignore Macabee however his points remain open to either debate or not. While I do not agree with all of his statements, I understand his position on a peaceful two-state solution. He as someone who defends the Jewish state is perfectly within his rights to challenge those who wish to see its demise.

And he is right about one thing there are many Jews on the left who believe as he does. While Macabee may be cantankerous and disgreeable to some here the left is not unanimous on Israel and I have read many who feel exactly as he does. Are they too to be thrown out with the bath water?


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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posted 05 July 2005 03:08 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...

What the hell does *any* of that have to do with this thread?

Nothing.

Congratulations folks, Macabee de-rails yet another thread. If you refuse to respond to his TROLLING ('coz that's what it is) he won't succeed. Let him yammer to his sock puppets and his little choir, and just talk around him. The only reason he keeps coming back is because you let him win, time after time after time.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 05 July 2005 03:09 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Stop it, ohara. Just stop it. The only reason the one-state solution has any viability whatsoever is because Israel has complete power and authority (or, the power to exercise such power) over the whole of an occupied people. The logical extension is that people be citizens of the state that has power over them.

You will also find that most of us really don't care whether one or two states result, so long as it is done democratically which would involve huge concessions on BOTH sides.

Now, I no longer support a one-state solution. I do think that the two-state solution, premised on Israel's FULL withdrawl to the Green Line, is the best formula for the beginnings of peaceful relations. But that is the only way it is going to happen.

I have never once, ever, seen Macabee take that stand. I have never seen him acknowledge that the root of this whole problem is the fact that Israel occupies Palestine. Period.

I have invited him, on numerous occasions, to join with us and put other differences aside to help end this brutal conflict. To be a strong, respected, moderate voice standing strongly for Human Rights and against Occupation. He has not done so. He has preferred to defame and insinuate and misrepresent good people.

He has never acknowledged what happens to real anti-Semites when they come on this forum: They get exposed and they get the boot. No, he prefers to spread poison about good people, all the while stifling and obfuscating as he goes.

And you defend him. How bloody noble of you.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 05 July 2005 12:59 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Yes it was a really errie moment when Macabee responded to Hephastion by using a quote from Hinterland.


I believe babble may have created a new category of humanity, the "flaming antisemite."


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 05 July 2005 02:50 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
Coyote, i have taken the time to search many of Macabee's posts and while he has not recently come out as you say, he indeed has stated his rejection of the occupation. Trouble is he gets short shrift here for all his other pro-Israel posts.

Either way I do agree that we are way off topic and that is my last word on this thread regarding him. I apologize for getting us off track.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 05 July 2005 03:38 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Thanks: to Coyote, and yes Mac for your strong, divergent voices and interesting points and especially to O'Hara for your voice of moderation.
Now Does any one have any expertise on the Lebanese situation?

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 06 July 2005 03:37 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
Coyote, i have taken the time to search many of Macabee's posts and while he has not recently come out as you say, he indeed has stated his rejection of the occupation. Trouble is he gets short shrift here for all his other pro-Israel posts.

Either way I do agree that we are way off topic and that is my last word on this thread regarding him. I apologize for getting us off track.


That is not why he gets short shrift.

He gets short shrift for constantly manipulating the discourse through charges of antisemetism, which he then later retracts, or suggests he did not make, against the same posters again and again and again. There is no way to engage in productive discourse with someone who is either constantly engaged in slander, or when challenged on that then retreats into semantic preverication about the nature of the accusation. The result is complete derailment of the topic at hand, whatever that is.

How many times do we have to go through Macabee accusing Al Q. of antisemetism and then retracting the statement? Surely, once is enough?

Since no one with Mac's obvious intelligence could possibly be so unaware of the impact of his behaviour, it is apparent that it is calculated "politcs" not honest discussion.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
B.L. Zeebub LLD
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posted 06 July 2005 04:27 PM      Profile for B.L. Zeebub LLD     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Sure;

Which states in the middle east have: a "rule of law", or democracies? (not completely rhetorical)


Rule of law? All of them. By defintion, a 'state' is a series of laws and institutions which regulate the lives of those within the territory claimed by the state. You might not like the laws, but they are there nonetheless.

Democracies? If we take that to mean nominally (i.e. constitutionally provided for) universal suffrage then Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, (almost) Lebanon, Syria...


From: A Devil of an Advocate | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 06 July 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Long thread.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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