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Author Topic: The Third Intifada
rsfarrell
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posted 20 June 2005 02:15 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
So within 24 hours we have two fatal attacks; one solider, one settler; one in Gaza and the other in the West Bank. Israel's relentless war on the Palestinian people has not so much as paused for thought in the five months since a Palestinian ceasefire brought the number of attacks plummeting to pre-2000 levels. It seems that time has run out on the ceasefire and the patience and forebearence of the Palestinians has been exhausted.

It seems appropriate to begin to talk about the Third Intifada. What will it look like? What tactics will characterize it, and what goals? And who will prevail?


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Briguy
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posted 20 June 2005 09:15 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Surprisingly, Palestinian deaths and injuries have been at a low ebb since November, averaging only about 100 per month (and only about 10 deaths per month since February). The IDF is showing incredible restraint in the face of peace, to only be shooting, firing rockets at, or driving bulldozers over only 1/10th of the people as last year. Kudos!

Red Crescent Society Department of Grim Numbers.


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Erik Redburn
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posted 20 June 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
It seems appropriate to begin to talk about the Third Intifada. What will it look like? What tactics will characterize it, and what goals? And who will prevail?

My guess would be that more innocent people will be turned into screaming hamburger and more holes will be ripped into mothers hearts, others will just see their homes and orchards bulldozed, more incursions will be made into Palestinian camps with nomore effective resistence than before, but attitudes will harden again, lots more still breathing people will die, and Condie and Rummy will take more grand tours talking to the cameras about restarting the 'peace plan' or the 'roadmap to peace' or 'peace in our time' or whatever the newest fashion dicates. If only the 'terrorists' see reason first. That about sum it up? Good news is it's not likely to start up again so easily, most of the serious killing is going on in Iraq now.

[ 20 June 2005: Message edited by: Erik the Red ]


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 20 June 2005 08:29 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Isrealis. They have superior firepower.
quote:
...And who will prevail?


[ 20 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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Left Turn
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posted 20 June 2005 08:48 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinians may not have the resources of the Israeli millitary, but they have world opinion on their side. The Israelis can never take this away.
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DrConway
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posted 20 June 2005 09:27 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And just how many divisions does "World Opinion" contribute to a problem in which one side is applying the use of force as the solution?
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rsfarrell
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posted 20 June 2005 09:31 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
The Isrealis. They have superior firepower.

[ 20 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]



quote:
The Jewish people are slowly losing the Negev, and the Galilee. Losing - because Jews are abandoning them while Palestinian who are citizens of Israel are taking them over. . .

Without mass settlement of Jews in the Negev and Galilee, the situation will only get worse. Members of the nation that is competing with us will take over these two regions, which comprise approximately 80 percent of the state. They will not just take over the land, they will also take sovereignty over them.


quote:
"Without the Negev and the Galilee, there is no Israel," said Peres.

quote:
"The flies have conquered the flypaper."

John Steinbeck, The Moon is Down



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Erik Redburn
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posted 20 June 2005 10:27 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
And just how many divisions does "World Opinion" contribute to a problem in which one side is applying the use of force as the solution?

Even better question for this thread is how many divisions would apply if both sides are applying the use of force as a solution.


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Erik Redburn
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posted 20 June 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RSF: "Without the Negev and the Galilee, there is no Israel," said Peres.

quote:"The flies have conquered the flypaper."

John Steinbeck, The Moon is Down"

Are you agreeing with Peres now? I think the answer is obvious after four wars and two intifadas, neither side really 'wins' employing these tactics or objectives.


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rsfarrell
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posted 20 June 2005 11:45 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
RSF: "Without the Negev and the Galilee, there is no Israel," said Peres.

quote:"The flies have conquered the flypaper."

John Steinbeck, The Moon is Down"

Are you agreeing with Peres now? I think the answer is obvious after four wars and two intifadas, neither side really 'wins' employing these tactics or objectives.


I don't agree with Peres, and I do agree that everybody loses from conflict. Unfortunately, sometimes conflict is the only option.

I disagree with CMOT's belief that Israel is going to win this struggle because they are wealthier, better armed, better connected, etc.

I think the Zionist movement has bitten off more than they can chew in Palestine, and that any victory they have will be Pyrric.

That's all I was saying.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 June 2005 12:16 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Who has the ear of Dubya? Sharon.
Who has the most powerful Army in the Middle East? Sharon.
Who Has a massive collection of nukes in the Negev? Sharon
quote:
I think the Zionist movement has bitten off more than they can chew in Palestine, and that any victory they have will be Pyrric.


Your logic bothers me... a lot. You are treating the Israeli Palestinian conflict as though it were a pastry making competition. No one really wins in war. Your speaking as though Isreal's Jewish population deserves to be "loose" That isn't very humanistic and will not create constuctive solutions to the conflict. Please stop gloating.


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Left Turn
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posted 21 June 2005 01:37 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
CMOT Dibbler, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is hardly a war. It's an illegal occupation by Israel of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Not to mention the illegal Israeli settlments, the illegal apartheid wall, and the illegal house demolitions.

Most Palestinins now have about the same rights as the blacks in south Africa under apartheid. Only a withdrawal of the Israeli army from the West Bank and Gaza Strip, the removal of the illegal Israeli setlements, and the removal of the Apartheid wall, can begin to adress this situation.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 June 2005 12:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, that is true. I misspoke. I still think it's pointless to talk about winners and losers.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


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rsfarrell
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posted 21 June 2005 03:47 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

Your logic bothers me... a lot. You are treating the Israeli Palestinian conflict as though it were a pastry making competition. No one really wins in war. Your speaking as though Isreal's Jewish population deserves to be "loose" That isn't very humanistic and will not create constuctive solutions to the conflict. Please stop gloating.


This confuses me. How am I treating the conflict less seriously than you, because I think that the Palestinians have some long-term and advantages and you think Israel is holding all the cards? That is simple a difference of opinion as to the balance of power, not contrasting moral judgements on war.

quote:
Your speaking as though Isreal's Jewish population deserves to be "loose"

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here, but if you mean, do I think Israel deserves to lose the war, then yes, I do. But I would rather see an outcome in which everyone wins in the long run. Both Jews and non-Jews are likely to be in Palestine for a very long time and they are going to need to find a basis for coexistence. I believe that Zionism, by its very nature, is exclusionary and intolerant, and cannot be the basis for coexistence. But my dream is to seperate Israeli Jews from their ideology, rather than seperating Zionists from the land.

The longer the conflict continues, the more likely it is that it will proceede with massive destruction to the Palestinian people, end with the murder or expulsion of the Jewish population. Both that and a single democratic state could be considered "wins" for the Palestinians; but one is defenitely preferable to the other. By working for the latter I hope to render military victory impossible by making it unnecessary.

quote:
Please stop gloating.

I'm not gloating, any more than you are. You may think it is wishful thinking on my part, but when people have been trying to destroy a people for a hundred years, and haven't been able to do it, it becomes a question whether they will ever be able to, with all their power. I'm not happy that we have decades more of war and suffering to look forward to. I have no illusions about the amount of harm these two peoples can inflict on one another. But some causes are worth fighting for, and cause of freedom is one of them. And freedom has a good track record in defeating occupation. It isn't gloating to point that out; just realism.


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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 21 June 2005 05:20 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
This confuses me. How am I treating the conflict less seriously than you, because I think that the Palestinians have some long-term and advantages and you think Israel is holding all the cards?

But that's just it. The way you and I have been framing our argument is all wrong.
We have been discussing the conflict as though it were a rugby match(which team is bigger and stronger then the other, which will win the competition.) We shouldn't be discussing it in those terms. If we do, we end up thinking like our enemies. That isn't right.


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rsfarrell
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posted 21 June 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

But that's just it. The way you and I have been framing our argument is all wrong.
We have been discussing the conflict as though it were a rugby match(which team is bigger and stronger then the other, which will win the competition.) We shouldn't be discussing it in those terms. If we do, we end up thinking like our enemies. That isn't right.


I agree that this is a lot more complicated than some sort of a geopolitical win-loss column. Have you read Ilan Pappe's History of Modern Palestine? One of his unifying themes is that throughout the last hundred years there has been a kind of natural movement on both sides towards coexistence and cooperation; that ordinary people are constantly building bridges between communities, and that nationalist ideologies on both sides are constantly expending a large amount of time and energy policing their own people by sowing fear and maintaining hostility. I don't know if I buy it completely, but he makes a good case.

I guess I do differ from a lot of people in that I do see this as a war, a hundred years war between Zionism and the Palestinians, and I do see one side as ultimately prevailing over the other; either it is going to be a Zionist state, which by its nature is allergic to the multicultural reality of Palestine, or it is going it be a Palestinian state, which may have intolerent people among its adovocates, but which is not intolerent by nature. That is the basic difference, as I see it; the human rights of the Jewish community are not incompatible with the goals of Palestinian nationalism; but the human rights of the Palestinian community are incompatible with the goals of Zionism. Therefore Zionism should change, or end.

Zionism doesn't work. It struggles endlessly, and futilely, with reality; in the Negev, in the West Bank, in Gaza, in the Gailee, in the heart of Tel Aviv itself. It is the cause of the war and many other evils. It corrupts and damages everything it touches, Judaism not accepted, for what remains in Israel today of Jewish values? Voices crying in the wilderness. For anybody to win, the ideology of Zionism has to lose. So in that sense, I do look at the conflict as a contest, not ultimately between two peoples, but between bad ideas and better ones, between human beings' desire for peace and their desire for power.


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rsfarrell
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posted 21 June 2005 07:15 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
IDF to resume targeted killings of senior Islamic Jihad militants

. . . and so it continues.


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Erik Redburn
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posted 22 June 2005 12:28 AM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
RsFarrell,
The problem for me still is that "Zionism" as an ideology isn't going to be defeated by physical violence either, and again, and I suspect that Israelis themselves would be more comfortable dealing with this this Zionism/Israel/Judaism question if this spectre wasn't even raised as a viable option. What I mean is the idea that the state of Israel itself (which Zionism in whatever form is predicated on) isn't seen as Threatened by force. You're also apparently assuming the same basic things. First, that those most actively advocating violent resistence to "the state" Israel can effectively oppose it using their tactics, that public opinion aroused by any Israeli reaction to it will improve things for anyone, even on a larger longer term scale (which it hasn't as yet) and more to the point, that those generaly advocating violence against Israel (like Hamas and Jihad) are fighting in the long term interests of other Palestinian Arabs on onehand or will ever recognise the right of Israeli Jews to live Anywhere in Israel/Palestine on the other.

None of this validates the state of Israel's colonial tactics, historically or currently, but using arguments which at the very least would be seen by Jewish Israelis, even of the more moderate or progressive stripes, as undermining the legitimacy of the "Zionist" state itself has no hope of succeeding, and therefore no hope of freeing the Palestinians either. I might get leapt on for saying this, but it's just not the best way to go about it in my opinion. Without clear recognition of the State of Israels right to exist (and therefore its Jewish majority) in some form or another, there's nothing more to bargain with really. Recognising that much doesn't mean have to mean Accepting their usual policies towards the native Palestinians either, nomore than any other established nation-state. Again, there must be better ways that have barely even been tried yet.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 22 June 2005 02:17 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Erik the Red:
[QB]RsFarrell,
The problem for me still is that "Zionism" as an ideology isn't going to be defeated by physical violence either, and again, and I suspect that Israelis themselves would be more comfortable dealing with this this Zionism/Israel/Judaism question if this spectre wasn't even raised as a viable option. What I mean is the idea that the state of Israel itself (which Zionism in whatever form is predicated on) isn't seen as Threatened by force.

No, no, no! That is just what they want us to think. It is a fundemental misunderstanding of the Israeli pysche. Today, I think we agree, Israeli Jews largely refuse a workable negotiated peace. But it is not because they are afraid. They are afraid because they refuse; they do not refuse because they are afraid.

I know this may seem like a discussion of empty semantics, but it isn't. If your assessment were correct, we would expect the Israelis to be generous and eager for peace will they feel confident and expansive, and inflexible and aggressive when they are threatened. Exactly the opposite is the case. Where they have made moves towards peace; in the wake of 1973, in the Oslo process, in the withdrawl from Lebannon, it has been when they have been badly damaged, taken by surprise, and feel surrounded and menanced. The rest of the time -- 1956, 1967, 1981, the retreat from peace from 1995 to 2000 -- they have been aggressive, imperious, and uncompromising. A happy and confident Israeli will soon be placing his foot on someone's neck.

We agree that peace depends on the stronger party making the choice for peace -- Israel. But Israel will make peace only when they feel they cannot win the war.

quote:
You're also apparently assuming the same basic things. First, that those most actively advocating violent resistence to "the state" Israel can effectively oppose it using their tactics, that public opinion aroused by any Israeli reaction to it will improve things for anyone, even on a larger longer term scale (which it hasn't as yet) and more to the point, that those generaly advocating violence against Israel (like Hamas and Jihad) are fighting in the long term interests of other Palestinian Arabs on onehand or will ever recognise the right of Israeli Jews to live Anywhere in Israel/Palestine on the other.

Whoa, long sentence. A) I don't assume any of those things. B) I support resistence. Whether it is violent or nonviolent is a question of tactics. I support Palestinians in whatever choice they make, subject to the laws of war.

quote:
None of this validates the state of Israel's colonial tactics, historically or currently, but using arguments which at the very least would be seen by Jewish Israelis, even of the more moderate or progressive stripes, as undermining the legitimacy of the "Zionist" state itself has no hope of succeeding, and therefore no hope of freeing the Palestinians either. I might get leapt on for saying this, but it's just not the best way to go about it in my opinion. Without clear recognition of the State of Israels right to exist (and therefore its Jewish majority) in some form or another, there's nothing more to bargain with really.

That is true, which is why resistence is necessary. Resistence creates hardship, danger, and fear of ultimate defeat; you bargin with an offer to take those things away.

Israel the nation has a "right to exist," if you like. It's Jewish minority does not have the right to determine the state's character. Any settlement that leaves them with that power guarentees that the conflict will ultimately resume.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 12:16 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
We agree that peace depends on the stronger party making the choice for peace -- Israel. But Israel will make peace only when they feel they cannot win the war.



GAH!

That's what the Isrealis say about the Palestinians!


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nister
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posted 22 June 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The timing of the current push for peace speaks volumes. I think Sharon wants to cement a deal before the advent of the "Arab nuke", for obvious reasons.
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CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 04:19 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So they only understand force?
Christ. with friends like you...
A period of prolonged boodletting will only serve to intrench Zionism and will not neccesarily garuntee palestinian freedom.
Stop using dungeons and dragons logic. You are scaring me.

quote:
Where they have made moves towards peace; in the wake of 1973, in the Oslo process, in the withdrawl from Lebannon, it has been when they have been badly damaged, taken by surprise, and feel surrounded and menanced. The rest of the time -- 1956, 1967, 1981, the retreat from peace from 1995 to 2000 -- they have been aggressive, imperious, and uncompromising. A happy and confident Israeli will soon be placing his foot on someone's neck.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 04:22 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Erik and Dibbler I think you have it right.
Furthermore putting ideology aside (which is impossible for some)I really believe all parties want peace. Everybody wants something and I think wants to give something in return (compromise). Hopefully the actual parties will find a solution free of the bondage of ideology, history, justification and external influence.

Oh yes forgot to ad that his little "gem" of thinking is in itself a recipe for continued conflict:

"Israel the nation has a "right to exist," if you like. It's Jewish minority does not have the right to determine the state's character. Any settlement that leaves them with that power guarantees that the conflict will ultimately resume."

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 04:34 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Erik and Dibbler I think you have it right.
Furthermore putting ideology aside (which is impossible for some)I really believe all parties want peace. Everybody wants something and I think wants to give something in return (compromise). Hopefully the actual parties will find a solution free of the bondage of ideology, history, justification and external influence.

Look, just because
I disagree with RS, dosen't mean I'm willing to let Isreal or Zionism off the Ideological hook.

You haven't made a convert.


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Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 04:36 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CM:

I never thought I would convert you of ANYTHING!!!
Just that I applaud (your) rational thought.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 04:38 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
"Israel the nation has a "right to exist," if you like. It's Jewish minority does not have the right to determine the state's character. Any settlement that leaves them with that power guarantees that the conflict will ultimately resume."

I basically agree with this statement. What I do disagree with most strongly is the idea that the anti Zionist movement will be able to further it's goals by promoting vioence and refusing to work within the Zionist framework.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 04:44 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I basically agree with this statement.


Well that's fine but there will not ever be a possibility for a peaceful solution if this type of thinking is imposed on Israel. So it's inconsistent. But of course you are free to think as you like. I suspect that the negotiators on Palestinian side won't be digging their heels in for this demand(I have actually heard interviews with these people who have said what's great in theory is not possible in reality). And you can't go back in time. I think the character and makeup of the state will change and evolve over time...like any democratic nation.

But I agree with your last sentence of your post above. Totally.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 04:52 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I edited my post to more fully express my views on the subject.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 04:58 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CM:
Thanks for that. I think if all parties (Israelis and Palestinians) are firm on their beliefs then peace is not possible. Only through negotiations and compromise can peace be possible. I have to admit that the Jewish character of the state although originally felt essential has also become a curse in some ways. Elements of the Israeli Democracy are restricted by the religion. The irony is most Israelis are secular. Which is why I say (I hope)the character of the state will evolve to be more inclusive and less divisive.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 22 June 2005 06:59 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
So they only understand force?
Christ. with friends like you...
A period of prolonged boodletting will only serve to intrench Zionism and will not neccesarily garuntee palestinian freedom.
Stop using dungeons and dragons logic. You are scaring me.


That is not what I am saying. I'm saying they only respond to resistence. That resistence may be violent or non-violent, it may be Palestinian or based in the international community (taking the form of sanctions and the like) it may be economic, democratic, and political. A Palestinian who kills an Israeli solider on patrol is resisting; an Israeli Arab who takes a law degree is also resisting. The fence protests are resistence; so is the disinvestment campaign.

All of these forms of resistence may in the short run increase the paranoia and violence of the Zionist movement, but in the absence of resistence, the choice of the Zionist movement has not been peace; it has been an aggressive push for total victory over the Palestinians. No peace that way.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 22 June 2005 07:07 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

I basically agree with this statement. What I do disagree with most strongly is the idea that the anti Zionist movement will be able to further it's goals by promoting vioence and refusing to work within the Zionist framework.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


How does an anti-Zionist work within a Zionist framework? What is your concrete response to the war on the Palestinian communities of the Negev and the Gailee? How can Zionism in its present form ever be compatible with peace and justice?

There was a time when Zionism accomodated strains of thought, like cultural Zionism and binationalism, which were realistic and humanist. But over time the ideology has become more violent and extreme. If you are saying that, as a question of tactics, we should be trying to reinterpret Zionism in a manner compatible with reality, allowing Zionists to see it as a development, rather than a rejection of what they believe, then I agree. But it is a tall order. MLK managed to reinterpret American democracy in a way that supported African American human rights; but he had the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to work with. Israeli society needs to make a bigger transition and has less positive elements in their ideology to work with.


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Erik Redburn
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posted 22 June 2005 09:23 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Interesting development, maybe some grounds here for expanding on these issues past the usual. Busy tending a sick family at the moment but I'll be back with more later, don't mean to be rude.
From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 09:34 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

How does an anti-Zionist work within a Zionist framework?


Apparently not...ever with this line of logic, making peace (which is usually a form of compromise as opposed to victory) impossible. Or (on second thought) maybe it is through evolution and development. (see postings below)

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 09:38 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
How does an anti-Zionist work within a Zionist framework?

By working with good hearted Zionists like Uri Avnery and his comrades in Gush Shalom.

Zionists are not all racist bafoons, and the Zionist left has a much larger constituency then the non zionist left, which is mainly made up of fringe groups like the Isreali anarchists and(I would assume) the Chadash. Charasmatic people like Mr. Avnery are a great asset when it comes to fighting against the Isreali government, why not work with them instead of insisting that they are part of the problem?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 22 June 2005 09:47 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

By working with good hearted Zionists like Uri Avnery and his comrades in Gush Shalom.

Zionists are not all racist bafoons, and the Zionist left has a much larger constituency then the non zionist left, which is mainly made up of fringe groups like the Isreali anarchists and(I would assume) the Chadash. Charasmatic people like Mr. Avnery are a great asset when it comes to fighting against the Isreali government, why not work with them instead of insisting that they are part of the problem?


I would agree with you whole heartedly. I hope that Uri Averny gains a greater voice and power one day. The future of the region depends on people like him


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 22 June 2005 11:26 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

By working with good hearted Zionists like Uri Avnery and his comrades in Gush Shalom.

Zionists are not all racist bafoons, and the Zionist left has a much larger constituency then the non zionist left, which is mainly made up of fringe groups like the Isreali anarchists and(I would assume) the Chadash. Charasmatic people like Mr. Avnery are a great asset when it comes to fighting against the Isreali government, why not work with them instead of insisting that they are part of the problem?


I am happy to work with anyone in the right cause. But what you seem to be saying is that it is a mistake to seek justice and oppose evil because you are going to lose Mr. Avnery. The think that gives too much power to people whose ultimate goal is to maintain Zionist rule over the vast majority of Palestinian land. As long as Mr. Avnery wants to work for justice, I am happy to work with him. When he doesn't, then he is, indeed, part of the problem.

There is something patronizing and colonial about forever focusing one's gaze on the oppressor, ask whether he is feeling comfortable, how we can ease his anxiety, what he will agree to. History (in general and specifically in this case) suggest the answer is: not much.

If you are worried about losing someone, why not worry about losing the refugees, whose first goal is to return to their homeland. Ask yourself what a movement commited to appeasing Mr. Averny can really offer them. If I'm not mistaken, there are several million more of them than there are members of Gush Shalom.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 22 June 2005 11:44 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Would you also be willing to accept a viable Palestinian republic in the occupied territories and then wait patiently for a binational state?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 12:09 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is something patronizing and colonial about forever focusing one's gaze on the oppressor, ask whether he is feeling comfortable, how we can ease his anxiety, what he will agree to. History (in general and specifically in this case) suggest the answer is: not much.


I wish to pretend that their is an Isreali resistance, that their are people in isreal who are not hypocritical zenophobes. Much of the rhetoric I hear from the left is anti isreali.
There is so much of it, that it easy for one to get the impession that the vast majority of Isrealis are arrogant, intolerent bastards who actually do deserve to die in a massive pogrom.
I don't believe I should be thinking like that.

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 12:20 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There is something patronizing and colonial about forever focusing one's gaze on the oppressor, ask whether he is feeling comfortable, how we can ease his anxiety, what he will agree to. History (in general and specifically in this case) suggest the answer is: not much.


Can the non Zionist left offer the refugees more hope then Gush can?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 12:31 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peace has to start somewhere and if you want to work for peace in Israel, peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians without the danger of getting shot, then Gush Shalom is the only game in town. I am a coward, so sue me.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 23 June 2005 12:38 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Would you also be willing to accept a viable Palestinian republic in the occupied territories and then wait patiently for a binational state?

Depending on how you define waiting patiently, yes, I would.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 23 June 2005 01:02 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
[QB]

I wish to pretend that their is an Isreali resistance, that their are people in isreal who are not hypocritical zenophobes.


I don't know that I would call a Zionist a hypocritical xenophobe. Nationalism, religious intolerence, and the corrosive effects of a system of racial supremacy can make good people -- or, more precisely, ordinary people -- do terrible things.

There is an Israeli resistence. Paradoxily, they are most important to the Jewish people, not the Palestinian people. They are too few and too conflicted to reverse their bigoted countrymen's folly. But someday the Jewish people are going to wake up from this moral nightmare, and remember who they are. That is the destiny of the Israeli resistence, I believe. To keep alive what it really means to be a Jew. They are a kind of living Torah, which will survive the destruction of the moral compass of a signifigant fraction of the Jewish people at the hand of Zionism.

quote:
Much of the rhetoric I hear from the left is anti isreali.

And rightly so. If you do evil, people will speak ill of you.

quote:
There is so much of it, that it easy for one to get the impession that the vast majority of Isrealis are arrogant, intolerent bastards who actually do deserve to die in a massive pogrom.

I lost you towards the end. Arrogant -- the vast majority, hmmm. I think a lot of honest Israelis would admit that arrogance is something of a national characteristic. Intolerent? We have statistics that will confirm that; I've referenced them before. Bastards? Only their mothers know for sure. Do they deserve to die in a pogrom? No one deserves to die in a pogrom. Deserve to die in a war, maybe, or deserve to die on a scafold for their crimes, some of them. No need to bring pogroms into it. The only pogroms these days are the ones the settlers inflict on the Palestinians (see "scafold").

In any case, I don't think most people on the left think that way about Israel. On the contrary, they treat Israel with kid gloves, and swallow hook line and sinker the whole brow-skin-demands-freedom = terrorist line of bull.

I'm often amazed by the way that Americans, for example, idolize violent rebellion as long as it is white people doing it. Look at the movies. "Braveheart" (For some reason, a lot of these movies seem to star Mel Gibson) -- violent revolt of Scotland, including the murder of collaborators. "The Patriot" -- violent revolt of Americans against the British, including the killing of prisoners of war. "King Arthur" -- Arthur reimagined as a nationalist in revolt from Rome.

And when one of these heroes hit the big screen, the story is always the same. The goal: complete liberation of all the people and all the land. The means: violent and ruthless. The commitment: death is always better than surrender; failure and defeat is better than ignoble life in slavery.

If the left were really anti-Israeli, do you think they would look at people in the same plight and with the same goals as the fictional heroes they love to cheer, and see extremists and terrorists who must cede three-quarters of their land to even deserve a place at the barginning table?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 June 2005 02:00 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
CM:

I don't know if you're familiar with this group but Peace Now is a reputable organization of decent people who are working for peace in Israel.

http://www.peacenowcanada.org/

I believe they are working to create dialogue that does not succumb to or goes beyond the "Israel &/or Zionism = evil, imperialistic, racially superior rhetoric."

Another progressive publication that is working toward peace and inclusion is Tekun.

http://www.tikkun.org/

[ 23 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 12:21 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for the links, but Peace Now is the most hypocritical oginization in the Isreali peace movement. They suck up to Ehud Barak and support his peace plan which would have seen the west bank turned into a series of bantustans. If I'm going to fight for justice in the WB and GS I'll work with Gush, not peace now.
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 June 2005 01:22 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Thank you for the links, but Peace Now is the most hypocritical oginization in the Isreali peace movement. They suck up to Ehud Barak and support his peace plan which would have seen the west bank turned into a series of bantustans. If I'm going to fight for justice in the WB and GS I'll work with Gush, not peace now.

Fair enough. Peace Now is featured as a link on Gush Shalom's web site. So others affiliated with GS may feel differently. And besides, as long as peace is achieved....soon ideology is secondary.


http://gush-shalom.org/links.html


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 23 June 2005 02:16 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I still endorse Peace Now and am a dues paying member of this group. It would be important that when progressive elements within Israeli and Jewish societies emerge that we show support not derision.
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 23 June 2005 04:00 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I still endorse Peace Now and am a dues paying member of this group. It would be important that when progressive elements within Israeli and Jewish societies emerge that we show support not derision.

I agree as with ALL societies.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 06:13 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
I lost you towards the end.

OK. Here's the thing. When I am at my most pessimistic, I have often thought that Israel's Jewish majority deserves to suffer in some unbelievably horrible way, that there isn't a decent person amongst them.
One of the reasons that I created my "All Hail the Isreali resistence" thread was to reassure myself that there are in fact humanistic Israelis who care about the welfare of the Palestinian people.
There aren't really, but I do like to pretend.

quote:
There is an Israeli resistence. Paradoxily, they are most important to the Jewish people, not the Palestinian people. They are too few and too conflicted to reverse their bigoted countrymen's folly. But someday the Jewish people are going to wake up from this moral nightmare, and remember who they are. That is the destiny of the Israeli resistence, I believe. To keep alive what it really means to be a Jew. They are a kind of living Torah, which will survive the destruction of the moral compass of a signifigant fraction of the Jewish people at the hand of Zionism.



Thank you for lying to me to make me feel better, but it hasn't really worked, the only people who care about the Palestinian cause, are, as I mentioned, fringe groups like the Communists, who don't have a voice.
Uri Avnery, for all that he attacks Sharon at every opportunity, praises Arafat, and calls for an end to the occupation, will never endorse a truly inclusive multicutural state. Neither I fancy would Amira Hass Ilian Pappe, Ben Helper or any of the other so called Isreali "radicals" that so vehemently oppose the occupation. Oh yes, they criticize the IDF for building the wall in the West Bank, but if the refugees were to come back, and settle in Jewish neighbourhoods, Uri Avnery would be in front of the supreme court trying to get a wall built between him and the Arab Newcomers. Isreal could almost be considered humanist free zone. If it wasn't for groups like anarchists who really do keep the flame of internationalism and humanism burning, their would be no one absolutley no one, to stand up for common decency in Isreal.
What a backward, socially bankrupt and incredibly sick little country.
God, but its depressing.


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 23 June 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, CMOT, I feel your pain. It is devastating to watch the brutality of occupation continue day after grinding day. And all too often, it does feel like there is no hope of Israel (or, for that matter, America) reversing their current trajectory. I'm sure there are dialectical materialists who can coldly put forward an end result, but I don't fall in for that, myself.

I think you underestimate the people of Israel, however. Humanism is, essentially, the voice of civilization that must talk down the shouts of barbarism. There are many people, and organizations, that have done what they can to represent that voice.

What are your expectations of the Israeli people? They too, are caught in a climate of fear and recrimination like so many peoples before them. How does one treat that problem.

I can't remember who said it, but there is a saying that goes along the lines of "No one has ever changed a nation without appealling to its soul." I believe that. We must appeal to our better nature, our shared humanity.

Perhaps romantic. But much better than the alternative, which is to curse Heaven and Earth; that is the way to despair and ultimately, the victory of barbarism.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 23 June 2005 08:31 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
There are many people, and organizations, that have done what they can to represent that voice.

Almost none of which are in favour of a one state solution.

Zionism is by it's very nature exclusionary. How are the Israelis and Palestinians supposed to live in peace, if Isreal is allowed by law to treat its arab citizens like garbage and deny the right of return?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erik Redburn
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posted 26 June 2005 11:41 PM      Profile for Erik Redburn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
Thank you for lying to me to make me feel better, but it hasn't really worked, the only people who care about the Palestinian cause, are, as I mentioned, fringe groups like the Communists, who don't have a voice. ..............

I wouldn't be quite so pessimistic about it Dibbler, the conditions which made Israel are mostly historical in making and therefore can change, like it has in other countries with similar dynamics at play. To borrow a quote from one of the many STV threads, if the Irish (or South Africans) can do it, why not...them?

Why I argue what I do here (partly in hopes of finding neglected middleground as well) is because outside pressure maybe essential here to getting Israelis to see the dangerous and ultimately self destructive path they're on. But that I believe also requires recognising their basic right to survive as a nation, that's the only point being contented still. I don't see why the "two state solution" couldn't work as well, if the will is there, and a more likely possibility at present.


From: Broke but not bent. | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 27 June 2005 12:25 AM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even if the occupation ends, conditions in Israel proper will probably not improve. The government will still be obsessed with the demographic problem and will not give Israeli Arabs equal rights.
Besides, most of Israel's water comes from the West Bank. The Israeli government aren't going to give up those aquifers so easily.
However, it's probably going to be easier for Israeli Arabs to right fight against the Israeli government peacefully, given that many of them have been marinated in the Hebrew language and Israeli culture from birth, and who knows, bribing the settlers to return to Israel proper and giving up the settlements and the West Bank aquifers might be the least dangerous option, given the fanaticism of the settlers and the fact that Israel has started to build desalination plants.

From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
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posted 27 June 2005 01:38 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To eturn to the original topic of this thread. We are not yet in a third intifada, but I believe firmly that a third intifada is coming. The israelis have shown no sign of changing their tactics in the West Bank, so it is only a matter of time.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 27 June 2005 02:43 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The important thing, I think, is not to lose hope, or to consider everything as insoluble because we don't see the solution right now.

I've used the analogy before, but truthfully: Who would have thought, in years past, that there would ever be lasting peace amongst the great powers of Europe? French and English and German etc. ad nauseum, how many battlefields mark the landscape of that continent? How many slaughters, for Gods and Kings and greed?

Time passes. Hatreds fade, or become passive things without power. Nothing is inevitable. Nothing.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 27 June 2005 07:24 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
The important thing, I think, is not to lose hope, or to consider everything as insoluble because we don't see the solution right now.

I've used the analogy before, but truthfully: Who would have thought, in years past, that there would ever be lasting peace amongst the great powers of Europe? French and English and German etc. ad nauseum, how many battlefields mark the landscape of that continent? How many slaughters, for Gods and Kings and greed?

Time passes. Hatreds fade, or become passive things without power. Nothing is inevitable. Nothing.


Sometimes we lose. That is just the way it is. The main thing is to try and limit the amount of suffering, and that in itself is the most important project.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 July 2005 05:54 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Back to the future . . . Death toll in Netanya bombing rises to three.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 12 July 2005 11:06 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Nothing like a little revenge murder to ease the pain of grief:

quote:
Report: IDF kills Palestinian policeman in Tul Karm raid

By Reuters

TUL KARM, West Bank - Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed a Palestinian policeman during a West Bank raid on Wednesday, Reuters reported, quoting unnamed witnesses.

The predawn operation in Tul Karm came hours after an Islamic Jihad militant from the area blew himself up in the nearby town of Netanya . . .

Witnesses said some 20 military vehicles swept into Tul Karm, which had been formally under Palestinian Authority security control as part of a ceasefire declared by Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in February.

Troops fired in the air and then at a Palestinian police post in what witnesses called an unprovoked attack.



From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 13 July 2005 10:55 AM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yesterday we saw a return to suicide bombings and a return to Israel retaliating. Once again the road to peace is being potholled with blood. The blood of Palestinians and the blood of Israelis are both red. Any blood spilled now as we are closer to a true 2 state peace is terrible.

I think that UN Secretary General summed up what most of us think about any form of violence in the Middle East.

quote:
ANNAN CONDEMNS SUICIDE ATTACK IN ISRAEL; SAYS NOTHING CAN JUSTIFY TERROR
New York, Jul 12 2005 5:00PM
United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan today strongly condemned the suicide attack in Israel that killed at least two people and wounded many others, saying he was "unwavering in his conviction that nothing can justify terror.

"Now and in the days ahead, it is critical that all measures be taken to ensure that such attacks do not reoccur, and that the admirable restraint recently observed be maintained so that the violence does not escalate," he added.



From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
josh
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posted 13 July 2005 11:08 AM      Profile for josh     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Any blood spilled now as we are closer to a true 2 state peace is terrible.


Closer? How so?

The occupation has just entered its 39th year. The illegal settlement activity has been going on for over 30, and continues. Israel is walling off Palestinians from Jerusalem, and continues to drive them off their land. Of course, the status quo benefits Israel.

Nothing prevents Israel from pulling up stakes and leaving the west bank today. It simply does not want to. As long as the occupation continues, so will the terror.

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=001285


From: the twilight zone between the U.S. and Canada | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 13 July 2005 11:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Palestinians have been occupied as long as the Maple Leafs have been without a Stanley cup. That is a very long time.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 13 July 2005 04:21 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The Palestinians have been occupied as long as the Maple Leafs have been without a Stanley cup. That is a very long time.

Longer; the Palestinians in Israel were occuppied from 1947 onward. Not that the life of a refugee is any better.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 13 July 2005 04:57 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Yesterday we saw a return to suicide bombings and a return to Israel retaliating.

Well, actually, I think the Israel retaliating part never really stopped.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 13 July 2005 04:58 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
But many of the Arabs in Isreal proper do view themselves as Isreali. They watch Isreali movies, read Isreali books and speak Hebrew in everyday life. Their was even a pole in haaretz which stated that a lot of Isreali Arabs said they wouldn't mind living in a Jewish state, so long as it wasn't a Zionist state. I agree that as long as Zionism remains the ideology of the Isreali state, Isreal will never be entirely secure, however Isn't it possible that much of Israel's Arab population(even with seperate, decaying schools and high unemployment) Is intigrated enough into Isreali society that we can stop claiming that Israli Arabs feel they have been occupied for 50+ years?
quote:
Longer; the Palestinians in Israel were occuppied from 1947 onward. Not that the life of a refugee is any better.

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 13 July 2005 06:13 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
But many of the Arabs in Isreal proper do view themselves as Isreali. They watch Isreali movies, read Isreali books and speak Hebrew in everyday life. Their was even a pole in haaretz which stated that a lot of Isreali Arabs said they wouldn't mind living in a Jewish state, so long as it wasn't a Zionist state. I agree that as long as Zionism remains the ideology of the Isreali state, Isreal will never be entirely secure, however Isn't it possible that much of Israel's Arab population(even with seperate, decaying schools and high unemployment) Is intigrated enough into Isreali society that we can stop claiming that Israli Arabs feel they have been occupied for 50+ years?

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


I guess the way to put paid to that claim would be to ask them. I don't imagine that acceptence of the state they are in and a desire to belong to it means they have fogotten it was imposed on them by force.

It is interesting to note that from 1948-1967 Israeli Arabs were subject to military government and, among other things, required permits to travel. This status was lifted soon after the six-day war. Why, I wonder? Perhaps so others and the Palestinians themselves would be less inclined to see both communities plights' as identical, and thus all of Israel as occuppied. That's just speculation on my part.

But one might say, even if one did not they they were occuppied today, that the occupation of the Israeli Arabs did not end, but rather moved to the West Bank and Gaza.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 14 July 2005 08:34 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:
But many of the Arabs in Isreal proper do view themselves as Isreali. They watch Isreali movies, read Isreali books and speak Hebrew in everyday life. Their was even a pole in haaretz which stated that a lot of Isreali Arabs said they wouldn't mind living in a Jewish state, so long as it wasn't a Zionist state. I agree that as long as Zionism remains the ideology of the Isreali state, Isreal will never be entirely secure, however Isn't it possible that much of Israel's Arab population(even with seperate, decaying schools and high unemployment) Is intigrated enough into Isreali society that we can stop claiming that Israli Arabs feel they have been occupied for 50+ years?

[ 13 July 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


The next logical step would then be to include those other Arabs into the Israeli state (officially: with status, human rights, property rights, and perhaps most importantly - security). But be careful who you suggest this path to.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 14 July 2005 04:05 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

The next logical step would then be to include those other Arabs into the Israeli state (officially: with status, human rights, property rights, and perhaps most importantly - security). But be careful who you suggest this path to.


Word.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 14 July 2005 04:10 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Woman killed in Qassam attack north of Gaza Strip

quote:
Hamas and the Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack. . . .

Later in the evening, Hamas militants attempted to renew the fire from the town of Beit Lahiya in the northern Gaza Strip, but were deterred by Palestinian Authority security officers. Seven Palestinians were injured, one seriously, in the gun battle that followed.


This is bad news for everybody; the Palestinians because it brings them closer to the civil war among factions that Israel is salivating for, the Israelis because it makes it clear that the Palestinian leader they saw buried with great fanfare and celebration was, it is becoming clear, the only Palestinian leader with the stature to impose a solution short of total victory.

From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8662

posted 14 July 2005 07:51 PM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Briguy wrote:
quote:
The next logical step would then be to include those other Arabs into the Israeli state (officially: with status, human rights, property rights, and perhaps most importantly - security). But be careful who you suggest this path to.

We need to be careful how we articulate this position, given the nature of the Israeli state.

The Israeli state requires that all citizens of Israel serve a stint in the armed forces upon reaching age 18. From their millitary service, Israelis receive a millitary service number, which functions in the same way as our SIN number here in Canada. So this millitary service number is required to gain legal employment, open a bank account, sign a rent form, take out a mortgage, vote, and access social programs.

At presnet the Arab population of Israel is generally not allowed to join the Israeli armed forces, and thus is denied any kind of meaningful participation in Israeli sociaety. That said, the wrong position for us to take is to demand that Israeli arabs be required to serve in the Israeli armed forces. Rather, our demand needs to be the abolition of compulsory millitary service, and the replacement of the millitary service number with a SIN number the same as in Canada. Then the inclusion of the other arabs into the Israeli state might actually mean something.

[ 14 July 2005: Message edited by: Left Turn ]


From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 14 July 2005 08:35 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
the only Palestinian leader with the stature to impose a solution short of total victory.

Your saying that now, their truly is no Palistinian partner for peace?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 14 July 2005 11:22 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
No partner for surrender, anyway.

I'm sure you could unite all the factions behind a peace basic upon the fundemental human rights of all Palestinians and Israelis.

Failing that, I think we're looking at a long war.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Future1
recent-rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9875

posted 15 July 2005 12:29 AM      Profile for Future1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What a lot of propaganda pap
Israel has shown incredible restraint against terrorists residing on her covenant and war bought soil these last 50 years.
She is the only nation with a deed written thousands of years ago under a covenant with God Genesis 12:3
Any nation or peoples is in deep doo doo if hey try to steal her land [ UN, EU, US,] or afflict her peoples[ Palestinain and Muslim Terrorists]
ie- Bless the Jew- be blessed.
Curse the Jew- be cursed.
The tiny covenant land that Bush and Sharon are trying to whittle down will one day be the place from where the messianic ruler of the Cosmos -Christ ,whom they dont nationaly know yet, will rule on King David's throne in Jerusalem.
Discussion without Bible knowledge of her history and the history of the nations is redundant and futile.
http://www.shamar.org/emet/views/israels_right.htm
f

From: Pacific North West | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 15 July 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
A covenant with God, eh?

I spoke to God yesterday and he told me all your settlements are belong to us?

So, there is a new covenant. Please be off my lands by morning.


From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 15 July 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Carrrrefully steping over the pile of dogshit that was that post . . .

I revise my comment on "a partner for peace."

What I should have said was: That is and has always been a stupid progandistic framing of a biased question. The Israelis, always the chief refusniks, have gotten people to try and predict whether the Palestinian leadership could delivery peace ignoring the fact that it has never been offered to them.

That said, most people want to see the 1967 lines and would agree to a settlement to that affect. The truce is breaking down, not because they reject that, but for two reasons:

*Many people believe, rightly, that Israel will never withdraw to the 1967 until they are a lot more scared than they are right now.

*Palestinian society isw finally cracking under the pressure of 15 years of siege. Extermists and just plain gangsters are becoming harder to control, and having a nonentity at the head of the PA does nothing for that cause.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 15 July 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
As I have said before, whom do you negotiate peace with? The person you are at war with. Who else?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1885

posted 15 July 2005 08:14 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Future1:
What a lot of propaganda pap
Israel has shown incredible restraint against terrorists residing on her covenant and war bought soil these last 50 years.
She is the only nation with a deed written thousands of years ago under a covenant with God Genesis 12:3
Any nation or peoples is in deep doo doo if hey try to steal her land [ UN, EU, US,] or afflict her peoples[ Palestinain and Muslim Terrorists]
ie- Bless the Jew- be blessed.
Curse the Jew- be cursed.
The tiny covenant land that Bush and Sharon are trying to whittle down will one day be the place from where the messianic ruler of the Cosmos -Christ ,whom they dont nationaly know yet, will rule on King David's throne in Jerusalem.
Discussion without Bible knowledge of her history and the history of the nations is redundant and futile.
http://www.shamar.org/emet/views/israels_right.htm
f

Just what we need. The scribblings of 2000 year old mad poets directing the oppression of an entire people. Thanks but no thanks.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 July 2005 05:28 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes, I appreciate it that everyone's sort of sidestepping that post. Let's not get into a big flamefest with him, okay?

As for you, Future1, as a newbie, I'll acquaint you with the rules. If you can't treat this forum with respect instead of calling an ongoing, in-depth conversation "propaganda pap", and equating Muslims and Palestinians with terrorists, you'll find yourself unable to post. That's your first warning.

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 15 July 2005 05:38 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:

Israel resumes targeted hits, kills 6 Hamas men

Same old dumb shit.

quote:
Hamas cells operating out of the northern West Bank have not been involved in terrorist attacks for an extended period of time thanks in large part to its committment to an Egyptian-brokered ceasefire among militant groups

Details, details! Never mind that, call the air force and get the murder bombers in the air!

quote:
as well as to the serious blows Israel inflicted on its terrorist infrastructure.

Throw that in there. Who can disprove it? You'd never want to give credit to Palestinians for showing restraint; restraint for Palestinians is always attributed to incapability, or fear of Israeli retailition.

quote:
The IAF's first strike destroyed a pro-Hamas Islamic charity in Gaza City and a minute later helicopters fired at a cemetery in Khan Yunis militants used as a launching pad to fire mortars at an adjacent Jewish settlement, witnesses said.

Godspeed to the brave murder bombers as they bomb institutions feeding and clothing the poor because they're supposedly "pro-Hamas." Yet if Hamas started bombing "pro-Israel" day care centers, methinks Haaretz would not describe it as a "pinpoint" strike on the "terrorist infrastructure," as they did today.

quote:
The IDF acknowledged one of the raids, saying it had struck an ammunition depot in Khan Yunis used by militants of Hamas, a group sworn to Israel's destruction.

Which is a little like saying Zionists are "sworn to Eygpt's destruction" because some of them still aspire to a state "from the Nile to the Euphrates." Lately Hamas leaders have been endorsing the idea of the 1967 borders "for 50 or 500 years" as one Hamas leader put it, but you would never know that the position of Hamas today is less hard-line than the Likud party platform. Zionists went through the same process with Arafat and the PA; the more moderate and peace-oriented they became, the more Zionists talked up the PLO Charter, a document with exactly the relevence of the proceedings of the fifth Zionist Congress.

Meanwhile six men are dead, the truce is in tatters, and Palestinian elections have been forgotten.

link

[ 15 July 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 15 July 2005 06:50 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The air strikes have come in response to a dramatic upsurge in Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli targets.

Seems Farrel forgot to point this out in the article he linked to.

quote:
IAF helicopters also fired missiles at a vehicle carrying Hamas militants driving through the Tel Ahawa area of the central Gaza Strip, not far from the Jewish settlement of Netzarim. Four militants were killed and the rockets they were carrying in their vehicle were destroyed.

And why would Hamas need rockets I wonder?

quote:
The early Friday morning IAF air strike in Gaza came in retaliation for a rocket attack on a Negev moshav that killed a woman.

In the body count Farrel forgot this young Israeli woman.

quote:
Palestinians have fired upwards of 40 mortar shells and Qassam rockets at settlements in Gush Katif since Thursday evening. Gunmen also fired another 20 rockets that landed inside Israel proper.

You mean there might actually have been a reason for the IDF to go after terrorists?

quote:
Two homes in the Gush Katif settlement of Neveh Dekalim sustained a direct hit and were heavily damaged by mortar shells earlier Friday. A woman and a child were treated for light wounds at the scene.

Friday morning, Palestinian militants fired seven Qassam rockets at Sderot, four of them hitting the town, two hitting open fields in its outskirts and one hitting the town's cemetery. A woman was treated for shock and taken to a hospital.


And all this while Israel prepares to disengage from Gaza.

Sadly there are always to sides to this very complicated and tragic mess.

same link as farrel's


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2776

posted 15 July 2005 07:18 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Any nation or peoples is in deep doo doo if hey try to steal her land [ UN, EU, US,] or afflict her peoples[ Palestinain and Muslim Terrorists]
ie- Bless the Jew- be blessed.
Curse the Jew- be cursed.

Yeah: old Jehovah really came through for them in the '40s.


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 15 July 2005 11:53 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 16 July 2005 02:09 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The air strikes have come in response to a dramatic upsurge in Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israeli targets.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seems Farrel forgot to point this out in the article he linked to.


Seems Mac forgets that quotation, by definition, is selective.

Also, I must reiterate my confusion as to why people who feel compelled to refer to me by something other than my handle cannot seem to remember the second "l". It's strange.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IAF helicopters also fired missiles at a vehicle carrying Hamas militants driving through the Tel Ahawa area of the central Gaza Strip, not far from the Jewish settlement of Netzarim. Four militants were killed and the rockets they were carrying in their vehicle were destroyed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And why would Hamas need rockets I wonder?


That would be the same reason the IDF needs planes. Love the double standard: Zionists never pause in building and upgrading weapons systems, and specialize in the crafting of battle plans to exploit any opportunity, but for Palestinian forces to prepare themselves for the resumption of armed conflict is dark and menancing.

Here's hoping they build a million rockets.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The early Friday morning IAF air strike in Gaza came in retaliation for a rocket attack on a Negev moshav that killed a woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the body count Farrel forgot this young Israeli woman.


Yes, I forgot the sacred rule of hasbara; Israeli murders always retailition for what went before; Palestinian killings, of soliders or civilians, are never given that status.

We could include that women. And the dead Palestinians that came before her. And a couple of dead Israelis before that. And more dead Palestinians. Finally, we get all the way back to the original cause; the genocidal nitwits who thought they could obliterate Palestine and raise up a Jewish state in its place. Thanks, guys. We'll send you the bill.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Palestinians have fired upwards of 40 mortar shells and Qassam rockets at settlements in Gush Katif since Thursday evening. Gunmen also fired another 20 rockets that landed inside Israel proper.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You mean there might actually have been a reason for the IDF to go after terrorists?


Yeah, those terrorist charities are a clear and present danger. Get real. If you, as an apologist for the terrorism of Zionism, want to wave a arm in the direction of all brown people in the region and call them terrorists, you need to run for Congress, not post on babble. We're wise to that dodge around here.

quote:
And all this while Israel prepares to disengage from Gaza.

Reminds me of all the sad fighting that took place while Napolean prepared to disengage from Russia.

The IDF lost. They're running. Now is exactly the time to stick the knife in and keep up the positive momentum.

It was fighting that is clearing Israel out of Gaza; it was fighting that drove them out of Lebannon; it will be fighting that clears them out of Jaffa.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 16 July 2005 05:33 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Yeah, those terrorist charities are a clear and present danger. Get real. If you, as an apologist for the terrorism of Zionism, want to wave a arm in the direction of all brown people in the region and call them terrorists, you need to run for Congress, not post on babble. We're wise to that dodge around here.

That had a nice zing to it.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 July 2005 09:18 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
If you, as an apologist for the terrorism of Zionism, want to wave a arm in the direction of all brown people in the region and call them terrorists

He didn't call "all brown people in the region" terrorists, and calling Macabee "an apologist for the terrorism of Zionism" is a personal attack. This is your first warning. Cut it out. Debate respectfully or debate somewhere else.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 July 2005 09:55 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What I would like to ask is what the killing of a Palestinian police officer does to advance the security of the Palestinian population. One would almost suspect the Israeli government of a deliberate campaign to undermine the effective civil authority in the Occupied Territories to create an excuse to go in wholesale and "clean them out" on the basis that the Palestinian Authority is incapable of effectively governing the area.

Why?

Because the IDF killed all its police officers and trashed all its government offices.

Or did anyone forget the time the IDF pillaged the bureaucracy of the PA a few years ago?


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 16 July 2005 11:07 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conway, please clarify for me which Palestinian police officer was killed and how. I cant seem to find it in the story. Thanks.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 16 July 2005 01:14 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Actually I recall there was an earlier story that the PA Police member was killed by a P. militant. The link is now dead unfortunately. Here is the closest story I can find. As usual there are 2 sides to every story.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArtVty.jhtml?sw=PA+police&itemNo=600503

However it is true that PA policeman(men) were alleged to have been killed by the IDF as per the post below.

quote:
Palestinian sources reported that a PA police force opened fire at a car carrying a number of Hamas activists, who were on their way to carry out more rocket launches at Israeli targets. The driver of the car ignored orders to pull over, and the PA police opened fire on the vehicle, wounding six of its occupants, one seriously.

In response, Hamas sent dozens of armed men out into the street of northern Gaza in a show of strength, which included the firing of an RPG at a base of the PA's national security forces. Clashes between Hamas militants and PA police also took place in other areas of the Strip.


Furthermore the problem with the rocket attacks is that they are intended to end the truce and as a provocation for Israel to retaliate. This an old and unfortunately successful tactic. Because Israel has and will retaliate.

quote:
The operation, which was the biggest attack by Israel in five months, came after Palestinian militants launched dozens of rocket attacks aimed at Israeli settlements during the week and a suicide bomber killed five Israelis in Netanya.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/16/gaza-violence050716.html


quote:
Hamas said the Israeli air strikes in the West Bank and Gaza would "open the doors of hell" on Israel. Palestinian Interior Minister Nasser Yousef said the killings were unjustified and would create more tension.

Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction, said it was reconsidering its commitment to the ceasefire.


quote:
A little after 6 P.M. on Thursday, a volley of four rockets was launched in the direction of Netiv Ha'asara, in the western Negev inside Israel. Dana Glakowitz, 22, who was sitting on the porch of her home, was critically hurt in the blast and pronounced dead shortly thereafter. Two other Israelis were lightly hurt.
Glakowitz was laid to rest Friday at 1:00 P.M. at the cemetery in Kibbutz Bror Hayil.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/600686.html

Regardless of who is at fault or started it the truce is fragile and the cycle of violence can easily recommence. And that is the real causality.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/600672.html

edited for clarity

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 16 July 2005 02:12 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well now Im really confused. As I read Dr. Conway's post it seems to suggest that somehow the Israelis had a hand in the Palestinian Police Officer's shooting:

quote:
What I would like to ask is what the killing of a Palestinian police officer does to advance the security of the Palestinian population. One would almost suspect the Israeli government of a deliberate campaign to undermine the effective civil authority in the Occupied Territories to create an excuse to go in wholesale and "clean them out" on the basis that the Palestinian Authority is incapable of effectively governing the area.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 16 July 2005 03:22 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, your obtuseness rises to dizzying heights as usual. I shall recommend that you be promoted forthwith to Supreme Grand Admiral of the Universal Obtuse Fleet.

As spake by rsfarrell:

quote:
Nothing like a little revenge murder to ease the pain of grief:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Report: IDF kills Palestinian policeman in Tul Karm raid

By Reuters

TUL KARM, West Bank - Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed a Palestinian policeman during a West Bank raid on Wednesday, Reuters reported, quoting unnamed witnesses.

The predawn operation in Tul Karm came hours after an Islamic Jihad militant from the area blew himself up in the nearby town of Netanya . . .

Witnesses said some 20 military vehicles swept into Tul Karm, which had been formally under Palestinian Authority security control as part of a ceasefire declared by Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in February.

Troops fired in the air and then at a Palestinian police post in what witnesses called an unprovoked attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, shucky darn and slop the chickens. GET A LOAD OF THAT!

It's really embarrassing when I have to point out what you should have been able to see in about ten seconds of searching the thread.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 16 July 2005 03:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
The predawn operation in Tul Karm came hours after an Islamic Jihad militant from the area blew himself up in the nearby town of Netanya . . .

Killing civilian Israelis. You omitted that detail. Not that it justifies the cycle of violence.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 16 July 2005 03:41 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Here is the complete story.

quote:
IDF seizes Tul Karm, kills Palestinian said to be policeman

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Staff and Reuters

Israel Defense Forces seized early Wednesday the West Bank city of Tul Karm and killed two armed Palestinians, witnesses said.

Two soldiers were lightly wounded in the raid, and paramedics have evacuated them to Beilinson hospital in Petah Tikva. Another militant was also wounded in the shootout.

Two Islamic Jihad militants have already been apprehended as a result of the operation, and some arms and explosives were seized by the forces raiding the town.
Advertisement

The IDF entered the city in a predawn operation hours after an Islamic Jihad militant from the area blew himself up in the nearby town of Netanya, killing three women.

Witnesses said some 20 military vehicles swept into Tul Karm, which had been formally under Palestinian Authority security control as part of a ceasefire declared by PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon in February.

Troops fired in the air and then at a Palestinian police post.

Military sources said the army shot back after two soldiers were wounded by fire from Palestinian gunmen.

"This operation was mounted in order to carry out pinpoint arrests of the Islamic Jihad terrorists behind the Netanya suicide bombing that killed three Israeli civilians," a military source said.

Head Commander of IDF forces in the West Bank Brig. Gen. Yair Golan told Israel Radio he believes the army would require "several days" in order to achieve maximum results.

According to military sources the PA is not doing anything to thwart terror attacks. The sources said Tul Karm has become a refuge for the Islamic Jihad, and thus Israel will act with full force against the terror infrastructure in the town.

Islamic Jihad militants in and around Tul Karm have been responsible for the deaths of ten Israelis in attacks in the past six months, since a major attack at the Stage club in Tel Aviv.

In addition to the operation in Tul Karm, the army has imposed a closure on the territories, for an indefinite time. Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz has also ordered to halt all talks between Israeli and Palestinian defense officials.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/599521.html

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 16 July 2005 05:09 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
Macabee, your obtuseness rises to dizzying heights as usual. I shall recommend that you be promoted forthwith to Supreme Grand Admiral of the Universal Obtuse Fleet.

As spake by rsfarrell:

Well, shucky darn and slop the chickens. GET A LOAD OF THAT!

It's really embarrassing when I have to point out what you should have been able to see in about ten seconds of searching the thread.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]



Glad to see first of all that you are keeping to the spirit of the changes to the forum we discussed. Many Babblers following a huge thread discussion are trying to bring a new level of civility to the ME forum. It would be nice if you could get on the train Doc.

Secondly I asked a real simple question just wanted some information. Thank you for providing it.

edited to add: And thanks Peech I won't however respond in the obnoxious matter as another babbler has just done.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 16 July 2005 06:39 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

He didn't call "all brown people in the region" terrorists, and calling Macabee "an apologist for the terrorism of Zionism" is a personal attack. This is your first warning. Cut it out. Debate respectfully or debate somewhere else.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


Eleven hours and fifty-three minutes.

That's how long it took after I took issue with your use of the adjective "Nazi" in another thread for you to retaliate here.

Kinda cowardly.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 July 2005 06:46 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by DrConway:
[QB]Macabee, your obtuseness rises to dizzying heights as usual. I shall recommend that you be promoted forthwith to Supreme Grand Admiral of the Universal Obtuse Fleet.

Enough with the personal attacks, DrConway. First warning.

And Macabee, quit playing hall monitor. I'm already on it.

[ 16 July 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 16 July 2005 06:52 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can we also ban people for being condescending?
From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 July 2005 06:55 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Heh. No. Although it's tempting.

In any case, this thread is almost at 100 posts, so I'm going to close it. Please feel free to start another.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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