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Author Topic: Canada Park
solarpower
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Babbler # 7609

posted 15 June 2005 11:30 PM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Why IS Canada's name still on Canada Park in occupied Palestine?
Three Palestinian villages destroyed so Israeli's can have a park donated by Jewish Canadians.
Type Canada Park in Google. It's the top listing.
A humanitarian effort? With Canada's name on it.


I didn't know about it until I saw it mentioned in a commentary July 15, 2005 in The Jordan Times.

[ 15 June 2005: Message edited by: solarpower ]


From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 16 June 2005 03:38 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
[quibble]

Shouldn't this thread be in the "Middle East" forum?

[/quibble]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 16 June 2005 08:24 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yes. Sigh. I'll move it. If I have to.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
solarpower
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Babbler # 7609

posted 16 June 2005 10:43 AM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, I thought it would be a Canadian issue with Canada being on the sign.
If it's representing our country, was it approved at the time by our government?

From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 16 June 2005 12:34 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by solarpower:
Why IS Canada's name still on Canada Park in occupied Palestine?
Three Palestinian villages destroyed so Israeli's can have a park donated by Jewish Canadians.
Type Canada Park in Google. It's the top listing.
A humanitarian effort? With Canada's name on it.


I didn't know about it until I saw it mentioned in a commentary July 15, 2005 in The Jordan Times.

[ 15 June 2005: Message edited by: solarpower ]


If they changed the name, it wouldn't force an end to the occupation or make Sharon rebuild the villages that his government destroyed.
obsessing over tiny details is pointlesss especially when there are more important things to worry about( the wall, the uprooting of olive groves etc.)

[ 16 June 2005: Message edited by: CMOT Dibbler ]


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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Babbler # 7770

posted 16 June 2005 02:46 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
You should be happy someone had the balls to put their name on it. Maybe if we called it the "America Strip," in honor of the bulldozers, rifles, planes and bombs that make it possible, Joe Taxpayer would give a damn about what is being done on his dime.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4117

posted 16 June 2005 05:28 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
You should be happy someone had the balls to put their name on it. Maybe if we called it the "America Strip," in honor of the bulldozers, rifles, planes and bombs that make it possible, Joe Taxpayer would give a damn about what is being done on his dime.

We? Do you live in Isreal?


From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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Babbler # 7770

posted 16 June 2005 06:19 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by CMOT Dibbler:

We? Do you live in Isreal?


If the American people called it by that name in order to reflect our contribution to the state of affairs there.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 17 June 2005 12:46 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Uri Avneri, then a Knesset member, described the

Uri Avneri, then a Knesset member, described the destruction of these villages as a definite war crime. This was carried out on the direct orders of Yitzhak Rabin, then Chief of Staff of Israel's armed forces. These acts are in direct violation of The Fourth Geneva Convention, 1949 , to which Israel is a signatory. Article 53 of the convention states: " Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the state, or to other public authorities or social or cooperative organizations is prohibited".

It is now difficult to spot the ruins and the rubble. Today there stands on the spot the infamy called "Canada Park", with picnic areas for Israelis, built with Canadian tax-deductible dollars provided by the Canadian Jewish National Fund

It is now difficult to spot the ruins and the rubble. Today there stands on the spot the infamy called "Canada Park", with picnic areas for Israelis, built with Canadian tax-deductible dollars provided by the Canadian Jewish National Fund (JNF).


web page

Canada should make it illegal for any Canadian to support terrorist organizations such as the JNF.

[ 17 June 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CMOT Dibbler
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posted 17 June 2005 02:43 PM      Profile for CMOT Dibbler     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Where is Canada park, exactly?
From: Just outside Fernie, British Columbia | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 June 2005 08:42 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

web page

Canada should make it illegal for any Canadian to support terrorist organizations such as the JNF.

[ 17 June 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


This moral relativism is sick. Can you name any JNF member who has strapped a bomb to her/his body and murdered innocent people.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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Babbler # 478

posted 21 June 2005 08:48 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Excuse me, but if the word "Canada" appears on that park, then it appears that that park has been built in my name. No other conclusion is possible.

I had no idea that had been done, and I have to protest, on principle: Not in My Name.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
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Babbler # 4748

posted 21 June 2005 08:56 AM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
This moral relativism is sick. Can you name any JNF member who has strapped a bomb to her/his body and murdered innocent people.

They don't have to do that. They have an army to do their murdering.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 21 June 2005 09:18 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Nobody was accusing the JNF of suicide bombing. The thread is about the destruction of three Palestinian villages to build a park, with Canadian money. Many Israelis have spoken out against this act, by the way.

Destroying people's homes and villages is an act of terror and of ethnic cleansing. Odd one should have to tell Jewish people that, given their long history of expulsions (even when not by means of pogroms).

And I haven't heard anyone defending suicide bombings against civilian targets.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 11:41 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Melsky:

They don't have to do that. They have an army to do their murdering.



It is this precise hateful diatribe which makes Jews believe that some on the left cross the line into anti-Semitism. There can be no equivalence between the IDF and terrorists. Only Israel is pointed to for such equivalance. When was the last time the US army were referred to as terrorists? When was the last time the Bristish Armed forces were equalled to terrorists? Israel is a touchstone for much of the poison emenating from thoose on the left who wear blinders to all but what is happening there. Israel is always wrong in this dispute.

Nothing is absolute ...other than it seems for those here who absolutely hate the Jewish state.


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 June 2005 11:45 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When was the last time the US army were referred to as terrorists? When was the last time the Bristish Armed forces were equalled to terrorists?


Gee, Mac. You don't read much of babble outside of this forum, do you.

You will find no shortage of babblers -- such as moi, eg -- perfectly happy to make those connections any day of the week.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 June 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It is this precise hateful diatribe which makes Jews believe that some on the left cross the line into anti-Semitism.

Are you accusing Melsky of crossing the line into anti-semitism? Put up or shut up.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
pogge
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Babbler # 2440

posted 21 June 2005 11:52 AM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
There can be no equivalence between the IDF and terrorists. Only Israel is pointed to for such equivalance.

To put it more succinctly than skdadl did, bullshit.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
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Babbler # 2534

posted 21 June 2005 11:55 AM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
At any Iraq demo here, "Bush - Blair -
Criminels de guerre!" will resound several times. Gosh, I've been hearing the US Army being called terrorists since Vietnam ...

But I would prefer that this thread centre on the question of Canada Park if possible.


From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 21 June 2005 11:56 AM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mac, you're slowly starting to get it! We shouldn't hold Israel to extraordinary standards; we should apply the same standards to ALL those who stand today as occupiers, who deny the occupied their right to self-determination, and who ignore (as you do) the injustice done in their (our) names.

So please find an instance where we hold Israel, the US, and the UK to different standards; where we justify American or British occupation or war crimes. I would be very interested to find it.

That, or maybe you could just drop your "Leftist anti-Semitism" crap, and focus on, remarkably, what we focus on: Occupation, war crimes, and the denial of self-determination. It might be a revelatory experience; perhaps, finally, you could join us in trying to end the injustice done by the powerful to the power-less.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 04:41 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:


Gee, Mac. You don't read much of babble outside of this forum, do you.

You will find no shortage of babblers -- such as moi, eg -- perfectly happy to make those connections any day of the week.


But have you?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 04:42 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:

Are you accusing Melsky of crossing the line into anti-semitism? Put up or shut up.


Im trying to give Melsky the benefit of the doubt.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 June 2005 04:42 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Wha?

Are you sober, Mac?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 04:43 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:

To put it more succinctly than skdadl did, bullshit.



Then show me where. And can you tell me without cracking a smile that sauch comments (if they are indeed on Babble) out number in total the number of times the IDF have wrongly been painted as terrorists?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 June 2005 04:46 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
F*** off, Macabee, you troll.

Many of us post regularly to this board about the horrors of American and British foreign policy, of which you say nothing, absolutely nothing, unless something particular happens to come up on your talking points.

No babbler present has any responsibility to find you a single post that you could or should have read yourself if you were a half-decent and committed member of this community.

Shame. Shame on you for hurting babble. Shame.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 04:48 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:

So please find an instance where we hold Israel, the US, and the UK to different standards; where we justify American or British occupation or war crimes. I would be very interested to find it.


[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: Coyote ]


Lets star with the other way around. Can you find for me or come close to calculating the number of times the USA and Britain were referrred to was murderers and terrorists. Are you willing to tell me that both the USA and Britain are held to the same standard as is Israel? My guess is thatn Israel (which is a country of 6 million as compared to the largest superpower 8in the world) basically warrants its own discussion forum. Isnt this just a bit out of equlibrium?

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 21 June 2005 04:49 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, you're the one who made the accusation. You find where we have been "soft" on either the US or the UK, as opposed to be being "hard" on Israel. You won't find it. Our objection, and the subject you seek so desperately to avoid, is to Occupation, crimes of war, and the denial of self-determination - no matter who carries it out.

Can you say the same? Can you honestly say the same?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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Babbler # 4881

posted 21 June 2005 04:55 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
And once again, you've hijacked a thread.

Why should there be a Canada Park, in MY name, on occupied Palestinian land? Why, Macabee? Why do you defend occupation, crimes of war, and the denial of the right to self-determination?


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 21 June 2005 04:56 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I can't believe this crap.

I can't count the number of times that I have equated Dick Cheney to every and any cultural equivalent of the devil anyone wants to come up with, and I am happy to do so again, here and now.

So many of us have made it crystal clear, almost daily over four years, that we believe that American imperialism drives many of the horrors of our world, the crises in the Middle East among them.

Mac, you either have never read anything on this board except this forum, or you are just plain lying, and that for your usual reason: you wish to divert this thread from its original focus.

I repeat: Shame. Shame. You are a destroyer.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 21 June 2005 05:00 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This really is sick, Mac. You owe babble an apology.
From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 June 2005 05:17 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, your latest is disgusting. Just disgusting. War crimes are war crimes. As it's co-creator, I am one of this board's first babblers. I can say with ease that the UK and U.S. have been criticized many times for state terrorism. Gosh, I even wrote about it!

quote:
“The worst act of terrorism on U.S. soil was committed on September 11, 2001.”
—U.S. Department of State

The above claim was made within hours of the attacks last year. It is still made today. On that golden autumn day, what did Native Americans feel when they first heard it? What did the descendants of enslaved Africans feel? Perhaps, for some reason, the suffering of their ancestors doesn’t count as terrorism.


What Happened

You owe a big huge apology, or you should not show up on this board again.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
nister
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7709

posted 21 June 2005 05:26 PM      Profile for nister     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Israel is Mac's saltlick. Mac, old stick, your handle should be spelled Maccabee..
From: Barrie, On | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
remowilliams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9639

posted 21 June 2005 05:28 PM      Profile for remowilliams        Edit/Delete Post
Actually Remo Williams is the Destroyer. Look it up. Destroyer #140 in book stores next month.

Please,babble owes mac an apology and the JNF and the Catholic church etc etc. and on it goes. Someone did label JNF terrorists. It's right there in black and white a few posts back and like a bunch of sheep all the other little babblers, roll right along with it.
Don't worry mac this place is the poster board for intolerance, bigotry, fanatical rantings and general blind lefty stupidity. eg I have learned on this board that if one even suggests they don't support abortion as a personal choice,not a legislative one, they are "a woman hater".
Some foul mouthed cat goddess worshipper apprised me of this little insight. Whatever.
Don't worry. The fringe left shall always remain just that. The reasonable mainstream will always prevail. Places like this are just a curiosity.
Best of luck to Canada Park! A worthy Canadian initiative.


From: Toronto | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 21 June 2005 05:32 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Amazing how those who hold babble in such disdain just can't seem to stay away, isn't it?

Remo— follow your heart. Fuck off.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Melsky
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4748

posted 21 June 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for Melsky   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyone who supports the current regime in Israel has an army to join. If you are a Palestinian whose land has been taken, whose family members have been killed, what army can you join to defend your rights?

I don't think there is any excuse for terrorism. But I also don't think there is any excuse for the actions of Israel in many cases.

I think that the current regime in the US should be tried as war criminals and Blair and crew should be right next to them on the bench. I have never hesitated to say that on babble or anywhere else. I don't treat any government diferently because of race or religion. I think if I gave Israel a pass on it's occupation of Palestine it would be judging diferently based on religion and I don't do that.


From: Toronto | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
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posted 21 June 2005 05:36 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee? Are you prepared to apologize, or should we put your revolving door of alias generator for rest once and for all?
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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Babbler # 7554

posted 21 June 2005 05:41 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
To try to get this thread back on topic a bit.

Why is there a Canada Park? Why does the name still stand. It seems to me that the name has been around since the '70s.

So if this is true then nothing has been done for 30 years.

Has anyone here who is against the name written, called or met with their MP? The Ministry of Foreign affairs etc?

It seems to me that if the name is so offensive then the government would be notified, a question asked about it in the House of Commons or the Senate.


As far as the thread drift about the JNF goes.

al-Qa'bong did write in a posting on this thread on June 17 at 12:46 above that

quote:
Canada should make it illegal for any Canadian to support terrorist organizations such as the JNF.

I have to wonder how does the JNF fit the definition of terrorism that is used here?

Who has JNF Canada Killed? Who has JNF Canada maimed?

Or is JNF guilty for funding a park that is on at best disputed land at worst occupied land.

IMHO equating JNF Canada with Terrorism was the problem that started the entire thread drift.

I have to wonder. Will anyone call for AlQ to apologize?

No one has yet.

So Al-Q withdraw your statement that the Jewish National Fund JNF is a terrorist organization.

If you will not withdraw then show proof that JNF has directly maimed or killed innocent civillians. Not Israel, Not the IDF, Not Kach Not Kahane Chai.

Show me where and when JNF has killed and maimed.

If you can not withdraw your comment.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


From: City of Toronto | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
audra trower williams
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2

posted 21 June 2005 05:45 PM      Profile for audra trower williams   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
remo: If you're here just to troll, you won't be here long. This is a warning.
From: And I'm a look you in the eye for every bar of the chorus | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 06:33 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by audra trower williams:
Macabee? Are you prepared to apologize, or should we put your revolving door of alias generator for rest once and for all?
Am I prepared to apologize?

For what exactly, for thiking that on babble Israel is more focused on (on balance) than other countries? Well one thing is clear there are those here who feel I am wrong wrong wrong. So if anyone here was offended by my post I sincerely apologize.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
swallow
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2659

posted 21 June 2005 06:35 PM      Profile for swallow     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Babble is soft on Bush? Now i've heard it all. Well, fellow dupes of the Empire: where do we get our CIA paychecks this week?
From: fast-tracked for excommunication | Registered: May 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5594

posted 21 June 2005 06:48 PM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
I can't believe this crap.

I can't count the number of times that I have equated Dick Cheney to every and any cultural equivalent of the devil anyone wants to come up with, and I am happy to do so again, here and now.


Cheney - born of a jackal. Bush - grandson of a fascist banker. Check, check and re-check. Yes, the right wing in America are the kiss of death and a cancer on the world. I'll second that.


From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
lagatta
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2534

posted 21 June 2005 07:23 PM      Profile for lagatta     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then there was this disgusting old terrorist, the KKK leader Killen who was behind the murder of three young civil rights workers -one African-American, the other two Jewish-American.
From: Se non ora, quando? | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
writer
editor emeritus
Babbler # 2513

posted 21 June 2005 08:05 PM      Profile for writer     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Macabee, that was no apology. Someone e-mail me when he's (finally) kicked off. I can't take it any more.

And that, my friends, is an official flounce.


From: tentative | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 21 June 2005 08:05 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:

IMHO equating JNF Canada with Terrorism was the problem that started the entire thread drift.

I have to wonder. Will anyone call for AlQ to apologize?

No one has yet.

So Al-Q withdraw your statement that the Jewish National Fund JNF is a terrorist organization.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


I've noted the imperative in your demand, and respectfully ask that you go stick it.

As lagatta said:

quote:
Destroying people's homes and villages is an act of terror and of ethnic cleansing. Odd one should have to tell Jewish people that, given their long history of expulsions (even when not by means of pogroms).

I agree with her. Should she apologise as well?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 21 June 2005 10:00 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by writer:
Macabee, that was no apology. Someone e-mail me when he's (finally) kicked off. I can't take it any more.

And that, my friends, is an official flounce.


Im sorry you dont consider that an apology

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 21 June 2005 10:04 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't consider it one either. You didn't even come close to apologizing for implying that Melsky is an anti-semite. And don't insult our intelligence by claiming you didn't. You most certainly did, everyone saw it, and I'm pretty sure I speak for most of us when I say that we are disgusted.

And that doesn't even touch on your latest lie, that somehow we give the US and Britain a free pass and would never accuse those countries of war crimes or terrorism. It is YOU who are obsessed with Middle East issues on babble to the exclusion of just about every other forum and every other issue, with the very occasional exception, which might explain why you never see babblers criticize anything else.

You don't see it because you don't look for it. And you don't look for it because your purpose here isn't to participate as a well-meaning member of this community. Your purpose here is to disrupt, hurl false accusations, and throw out whatever talking points you happen to be pushing on any given day.

It's laughable that you should accuse regular posters here of being obsessed with Middle East issues. Even some of the most dedicated Middle East forum posters, aren't anywhere near as obsessed with this issue to the exclusion of all others as you are on babble.

Watching you disrupt, dodge, weave, and intimidate with false accusations on a regular basis for the last two or three years has been sickening. You don't give a shit about this board or this site. You don't give a shit about this community. You have occasionally posted interesting points of view and contributions, which I have appreciated in the past, but they are dwarfed by your almost constant poisonous accusations against this site and the individuals posting here.

And your "apology" doesn't even come CLOSE to covering that.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: Michelle ]


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Coyote
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posted 21 June 2005 10:43 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would say something, but I think Michelle about covered it.

Frankly, Mac, I think you should take your ball and go home. I really think we're done with you, now.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
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posted 21 June 2005 11:17 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup. Last fucking straw, Mac. See ya.

When he's gone, we can all go back to being "soft on Bush & Blair" without further disturbance.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 21 June 2005 11:26 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have been here in good faith. On many matters here on other issus I find myself very much in sympathy. On Israel we are worlds apart.

I am more than saddened you take the position that I either lie or am being purposely obstructive. I am not. I feel strongly about what i write and I can tell you that there are many Jews from all political stripes including many from the left who feel exactly as I do. Your protestaions that somehow I only want to disrupt this board is more sad than real. I write what I feel. I have never asked anyone to agree or support me. And yes I am often alone here but knowing that I speak for many of my leftists Jewish friends who like me will not remain silent when people like Melsky call IDF soldiers murderers assures me that I will nver be lonely.

Sure you hate it when I confront you on the vile language employed against Israel. I hate it when you call my friends, nephews, nieces, cousins all of whom have been in the IDF and all of whom are decent good people "murderers". Wouldn't you?

So ignore me, if you will. Audra I do not believe I have violated any babble rules other than strongly expressing my opinion. I have been strongly associated with social welfare causes all my adult life and will continue to fight for issues like social housing, legal reform, I will continue to speak out against the tragedy in Darfur and work with others who have suffered tragdies. And I will continue to support Israel, a two-state solution and I will support the need for justice for Palestinian refugees within this framework.

I regret that you hate my passion. I regret that I have to become passionate to express my revulsion at those who casually toss around terms like murderer. I believe that the fact Israel is a Jewish state plays into part of that mindset. You can despise me for saying that but it is not a lonely narrative , many many other progressives have reached that same conclusion. You can shut us out but you will not shut us up.

[ 21 June 2005: Message edited by: Macabee ]


From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
beluga2
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3838

posted 21 June 2005 11:48 PM      Profile for beluga2     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Was that a flounce?

If so, I see you couldn't resist hurling your standard rhetorical stinkbomb one last time.

quote:
I regret that you hate my passion. I regret that I have to become passionate to express my revulsion at those who casually toss around terms like murderer. I believe that the fact Israel is a Jewish state plays into part of that mindset. You can despise me for saying that but it is not a lonely narrative , many many other progressives have reached that same conclusion. You can shut us out but you will not shut us up.

If you can't understand why people get upset when you determine, apparently thru ESP, that the people you disagree with have hidden anti-Semitic thoughts lurking somewhere deep within their cerebellums, then maybe it is time for you to take the hell off. You might as well accuse critics of Israel of having hidden inclinations towards pedophilia. Such grotesque slurs can have no other effect but to obliterate all possibility of reasonable discussion, which is what you've done time and time again.

Enough.

Maybe now those of us who see current Israeli policy leading inexorably to massive destruction for both Jews and Arabs can talk about it without being distracted by McCarthyist witchhunts.


From: vancouvergrad, BCSSR | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
kingblake
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posted 21 June 2005 11:50 PM      Profile for kingblake     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
That reads a lot like a flounce. Is it?
From: In Regina, the land of Exotica | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 22 June 2005 02:37 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I doubt it. He's pulled out the violin and sung that tune more than once before.
From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
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Babbler # 4795

posted 22 June 2005 05:03 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Here's a novel idea. How's about discussing Canada Park?

quote:
The destruction of these villages was witnessed and described by the Israeli journalist Amos Kenan, who was a reserve soldier in the occupying force in Beit Nuba. He gave this account to the Israeli newspaper Ha'Olam Hazeh, which was prohibited by the censor from publishing it. It was sent to all members of the Knesset, and to the Prime Minister and Defence minister, but no response was received.

"The unit commander told us that it had been decided to blow up three villages in our sector; they were Beit Nuba, Imwas and Yalu ... We were told to block the entrances of the villages and prevent inhabitants [from] returning .... The order was to shoot over their heads and tell them not to enter the village.

"Beit Nuba is built of fine quarry stones; some of the houses are magnificent. Every house is surrounded by an orchard, olive trees, apricots, vines and presses. They are well kept. Among the trees, there are carefully tended vegetable beds.

"At noon the first bulldozer arrived and pulled down the first house at the edge of the village. Within ten minutes the house was turned into rubble. The olive trees and cypresses were all uprooted. After the destruction of three houses, the first refugee column arrived from the direction of Ramallah. We did not fire in the air. There were old people who could hardly walk, murmuring old women, mothers carrying babies, small children. The children wept and asked for water. They all carried white flags.

"We told them to go to Beit Sira. They told us they had been driven out. They had been wandering like this for four days, without food, some dying on the road. They asked to return to their village ... Some had a goat, a lamb, a donkey or a camel. A father ground wheat by hand to feed his four children ... The children cried. Some of our soldiers started crying too.

We went to fetch the Arabs some water. We stopped a car with a major, two captains and a woman ... We asked the officers why these refugees were sent from one place to another and driven out of everywhere. They told us that this was good for them, they should go. 'Moreover', said the officers, 'what do we care about the Arabs anyway?' "

"We drove them out. They go on wandering like lost cattle. The weak die. Our unit was outraged. The refugees gnashed their teeth when they saw the bulldozers pull down the trees. None of us understood how Jews could behave like this. No one understood why these fellaheen [villagers] shouldn't beallowed to take blankets and some food.

"The chickens and doves were buried in the rubble. The fields were turned into wasteland in front of our eyes. The children who went crying on the road will be fedayeen [freedom fighters-I.Z.] in nineteen years, in the next round. Thus we have lost the victory." (From Israel Imperial News, March1968 .)

Uri Avneri, then a Knesset member, described the destruction of these villages as a definite war crime. This was carried out on the direct orders of Yitzhak Rabin, then Chief of Staff of Israel's armed forces. These acts are in direct violation of The Fourth Geneva Convention, 1949 , to which Israel is a signatory. Article 53 of the convention states: " Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the state, or to other public authorities or social or cooperative organizations is prohibited".


[...]

quote:
The glossy guidebook, published by the JNF of Canada, has an entire page devoted to the history of the area, including the biblical, Roman, Crusader and British periods, but has no mention of these villages or their destruction. Another step in the obliteration of the villages from memory can be seen in their absence from Israeli maps.

[...]

Father Louis, who worked at the Latrun Franciscan Monastery for 40 years, said, "Every time I go by Canada Park, I still get angry. Why does the Canadian government allow it to be called Canada Park? It is built on the ruins of people's homes."


[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: Hephaestion ]


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
solarpower
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Babbler # 7609

posted 22 June 2005 06:49 AM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thanks to those trying to get this back on the subject.
I can't understand how any group of people can raise money for any project anywhere in this world and then put Canada's name on it.
Is Canada's name not a trademark?
Even Rabblers could build an amusement park in defoliated Colombia and name it for Canada.
I wouldn't want my countries name proudly displayed on that either.

From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 22 June 2005 07:15 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Thank you for that quotation, Heph. Parts of it rise to the rhythms and hard vision of the King James Version:


quote:
"We told them to go to Beit Sira. They told us they had been driven out. They had been wandering like this for four days, without food, some dying on the road. They asked to return to their village ... Some had a goat, a lamb, a donkey or a camel. A father ground wheat by hand to feed his four children ... The children cried. Some of our soldiers started crying too.

We went to fetch the Arabs some water. We stopped a car with a major, two captains and a woman ... We asked the officers why these refugees were sent from one place to another and driven out of everywhere. They told us that this was good for them, they should go. 'Moreover', said the officers, 'what do we care about the Arabs anyway?' "

"We drove them out. They go on wandering like lost cattle. The weak die. Our unit was outraged. The refugees gnashed their teeth when they saw the bulldozers pull down the trees. None of us understood how Jews could behave like this. No one understood why these fellaheen [villagers] shouldn't beallowed to take blankets and some food.

"The chickens and doves were buried in the rubble. The fields were turned into wasteland in front of our eyes. The children who went crying on the road will be fedayeen [freedom fighters-I.Z.] in nineteen years, in the next round. Thus we have lost the victory." (From Israel Imperial News, March1968 .)



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 22 June 2005 09:42 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
It is this precise hateful diatribe which makes Jews believe that some on the left cross the line into anti-Semitism. There can be no equivalence between the IDF and terrorists. Only Israel is pointed to for such equivalance. When was the last time the US army were referred to as terrorists? When was the last time the Bristish Armed forces were equalled to terrorists? Israel is a touchstone for much of the poison emenating from thoose on the left who wear blinders to all but what is happening there. Israel is always wrong in this dispute.

Nothing is absolute ...other than it seems for those here who absolutely hate the Jewish state.


Your obtuseness surpasses new records every time I visit the Middle East Forum and see a post with your name on it. I have no choice but to conclude that you love play-acting at being deliberately dense, in order to avoid having to actually answer any question directly asked that offers any chance of ambiguity you can exploit in favor of pushing your black-and-white view of the world.

Your "apology" was the most disgraceful facsimile attempted thereof and deserves to be labelled under the more accurate "excuse" or "rationalization".

You know, it really is sad. Every time I think you can't sink any lower in rushing to point the finger of accusation and innuendo, you surpass my expectations.

quote:
I regret that you hate my passion. I regret that I have to become passionate to express my revulsion at those who casually toss around terms like murderer. I believe that the fact Israel is a Jewish state plays into part of that mindset. You can despise me for saying that but it is not a lonely narrative , many many other progressives have reached that same conclusion. You can shut us out but you will not shut us up.

Ah, yes, the perpetually invisible silent majority. Everybody always hauls this out when they're being piled on. It's an old trick, and I'm not impressed.

As for Israel being a Jewish state and all - you know better than to pull that old trick. But the state that claims to be a shining light unto the world had better expect to get called on it when people in it behave like boorish examples of humanity. You cannot lay claim to a special standard on the one hand and then deny the application of one on the other.

Even so, Jewish state or no, it matters very little to me. I have little use for religion, and its constant insertion into every facet of worldwide politics is wearying no matter which country is the latest to succumb to theocratic impulses.

[ 22 June 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 23 June 2005 08:17 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
As for Israel being a Jewish state and all - you know better than to pull that old trick. But the state that claims to be a shining light unto the world had better expect to get called on it when people in it behave like boorish examples of humanity. You cannot lay claim to a special standard on the one hand and then deny the application of one on the other.
I couldnt agree more. Israeli policy is always open to criticism as long as those being critical do so with some semblance to balance and understanding.

From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4795

posted 23 June 2005 08:35 AM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Mac. This thread is for discussing Canada Park.

Go ride your hobby horse somewhere else.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 23 June 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
To be a little fair to Mac I honestly believe that many here make him the taregt for their frustrations on Israel. I can understand on a personal level his discomfort with those of you who repeat the "IDF as murderers" mantra. He has family who are IDF he takes it personally as would anyone.

Instead of demanding he be tossed (which certainly goes against any progressive thinking) might I urge that you either ignore him or challenge and argue.


From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
aRoused
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Babbler # 1962

posted 23 June 2005 12:51 PM      Profile for aRoused     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"Milamber, your tongue is as slippery as a relli's." -- Hochopepa
From: The King's Royal Burgh of Eoforwich | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Scout
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Babbler # 1595

posted 23 June 2005 12:52 PM      Profile for Scout     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
might I urge that you either ignore him or challenge and argue.

After about 4 years of his smearing leftist and a list as long as your arm of differnt handles he has used I think plenty of people have a right to be as they wish to Macabee. The history is long and sordid.


From: Toronto, ON Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
ohara
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7961

posted 23 June 2005 02:12 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
I didnt know it was against Babble policy to change your pseudonym. Is that true?
From: Ottawa | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hephaestion
rabble-rouser
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posted 23 June 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for Hephaestion   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
And, as usual, the thread becomes "all about Macabee" and his latest outrageous f—ing comments, not the topic introduced in the original post CANADA PARK, which Macabee doesn't want to discuss.

Nice of you all to play along, people.


From: goodbye... :-( | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
solarpower
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posted 29 June 2005 01:53 PM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I've left a private message here:
http://izayid.tripod.com/
And hoping for a reply.
I want to do something about this.
I have asked if writing to the Canadian Jewish National Fund to get them to fix their own mistake would do any good.
I can't just sit on my thumbs now that I know.

From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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Babbler # 3807

posted 29 June 2005 02:42 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I wouldn't look for official Canadian help in this matter.

Canada complicit in Israeli aggression

quote:
Israeli warplanes are practising for precision bombing missions at a Canadian air force range in Northern Alberta. Ten F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter-bombers of the Israeli Air Force participated in Exercise Maple Flag, which ran until last Friday at Cold Lake, and stayed for some extra training. The U.S.-supplied Israeli aircraft arrived with an Israeli Boeing 707 aerial tanker for refuelling... The United States has been putting pressure on Iran to abandon its nuclear facilities before it develops an atomic bomb. In 1981, Israel had pre-empted Iraq's threat to build a nuclear bomb with an air strike on that country's Osirak nuclear reactor. A similar attack on Iran, farther away, would require aerial refuelling if F-16s were used.



From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 29 June 2005 05:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
To be a little fair to Mac I honestly believe that many here make him the taregt for their frustrations on Israel. I can understand on a personal level his discomfort with those of you who repeat the "IDF as murderers" mantra. He has family who are IDF he takes it personally as would anyone.

Instead of demanding he be tossed (which certainly goes against any progressive thinking) might I urge that you either ignore him or challenge and argue.



So I have several friends who were in the IDF that means nothing. They basically agree with me about the occupation and they all live here now.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
solarpower
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posted 29 June 2005 05:43 PM      Profile for solarpower   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Not just Israelis forces.

tiny url

I actually don't expect official government response on Canada Park as it's been ignored for years already by them.


From: that which the creator created from | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
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Babbler # 9652

posted 02 July 2005 03:03 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
When was the last time the US army were referred to as terrorists? When was the last time the Bristish Armed forces were equalled to terrorists?

Macabee: To answer your question. All the time now that the US has invaded Iraq. As a matter of fact, all throughout US imperialist history, the US has been refered to as terrorists by the very people that they have "liberated" in the past.

Get a clue dude!


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
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posted 03 July 2005 11:56 PM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Can you point out where this was publicly stated
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 490

posted 04 July 2005 12:45 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
How 'bout we ask the Vietnamese what they think of all that Agent Orange?
From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 05 July 2005 12:14 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Macabee:
Can you point out where this was publicly stated

Either you're joking, you're trolling, you're clueless, or you never read babble.

Ask your buddy, Mr. Magoo, about the arguments we've had with him about US war criminals.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
satana
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 2798

posted 07 July 2005 01:20 AM      Profile for satana     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Association For Reconstruction Of Emmaus
quote:
The village was occupied by the Israeli army in 1967, destroyed by bulldozers and the inhabitants expelled. Amos Kenan, an Israeli soldier who was in the sector, wrote a report and a recent programme made by the Swiss Italian Television showed photographs taken at the time by another soldier, Youssef Ohman of Kibboutz Ga'ash. According to witnesses, some of the sick and elderly who couldn't flee in time were buried alive under the rubble of their houses. Similar actions by bulldozer also destroyed two neighboring villages, Beit-Nuba and Yalu.
The Jewish National Fund, with the help of the Jewish Canadian Fund, planted a forest called Canada Park on the site of Emmaus. Canada Park has become a favorite weekend picnic area for Israeli families -but the former inhabitants of Emmaus are not even allowed to bury their dead in the village cemetery. They, and their descendants, now number about 11'000 in Amman (Jordan) and 2,000 more live on the West Bank, near Ramallah, according to a letter from the inhabitants' Committee (2 May 1987).
Nearly 20 years after the destruction, they have not forgotten their village. Several times they have asked the Israeli authorities for permission to return to their lands. But there have been no official replies at all to their letters. Despite this attitude, the inhabitants are determined to continue demanding their rights and have formed a committee to represent them.
Their goal is not to destroy the trees of Canada Park, but only to rebuild their houses on an unplanted 4000 donum plot (1 donum = 900 sq meters) that belongs to the Muslim Waqf (or foundation for religious properties), to be allowed to bury their dead in the cemetery and to return to the cultivated lands which were their livelihood.


this is the same article referenced by Hephaestion above:
Canada Park: Canadian Complicity in a War Crime
from "Outlook" Sept./Oct. issue, 2001, published by Canadian Jewish Outlook Society, Vancouver. (PDF file)
By Dr. Ismail Zayid

[ 07 July 2005: Message edited by: satana ]


From: far away | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Albion1
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9652

posted 15 July 2005 04:50 PM      Profile for Albion1     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Can you point out where this was publicly stated


I can point you to other sources if you want me to Macabee. I am sure they can be of help to you:


- Talk to any of the Aborigionals in the US who are currently living on reservations about their views of the USA.

- Go to Vietnam and ask anyone who is still living with the effects of "Agent Orange" how they view the Americans.

- Go to Nicaragua and ask them how they viewed the Contras who were backed by the US.

- Or for that matter, go to any Central American country that the US has meddled in and ask the populace how they enjoyed the many US backed death squads.

- Chile had their own 9/11 but their September 11th was on 1979 when Allende, a democratically elected ruler was overthrown by Pinochet who was trained in.... you guessed it... the School of the America's. Ask the people of Chile what they think of Pinochet and the US backing of his rulership.

- Go to Iraq and ask the majority of Iraqi's how they currently view the Americans and their behaviour. A good starting location would be Abu Garib prison.


I hope this will help you in your search.


From: Toronto, ON. Canada | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 15 July 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I think we've already answered that question of Macabee's quite sufficiently, since we've been debating about nothing else ever since in other threads. Since this thread with so many arguments has been bumped, I'm going to close it before people start rehashing the whole thing.

Please feel free to start a new one on the original subject if you like.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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