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Author Topic: Hizballah Sweeps Elections in South Lebanon
al-Qa'bong
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posted 08 June 2005 12:57 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hizb Allah and its Shia Muslim allies have swept south Lebanon's elections by a landslide, according to Beirut's interior minister.

quote:
The group hopes its victory will prove its strength and send a message of defiance to the United States amid international pressure on the group to disarm.

Why defiance? Hezbollah has proven its legitimacy in a democratic forum. The US, that champion of freedom, is sure to respect the decision of the people of Lebanon. It shouldn't be long before Hezbollah is taken off those racist and politically-motivated lists of "terrorist" groups, and welcomed into the international community of freedom-loving democracts.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the United States still sees Hezbollah as a terrorist group that must disarm if it is to become a political player despite its sweeping electoral successes in South Lebanon on Sunday. McClellan said his administration wants to see "fair elections' going on without intimidation or foreign interference as he said...

In occupied Jerusalem, Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Mark Regev said that Hezbollah is a heavily armed terrorist organization, and that solving Lebanon's problems begins with implementing resolution 1559 that calls for its disarmament.

Israel and the US singing the same song? It's probably just a coincidence, and soon they'll both, shining beacons of freedom that they are, be singing a different tune, and embrace the democratic will of the Lebanese people.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 June 2005 02:23 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yup.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 08 June 2005 08:13 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"Hezbollah has been linked to a series of attacks against Israel, the United States and other Western targets, including the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. marines at their barracks in Beirut in 1983."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/hezbollah.html

A terrorist by any other name is still a terrorist.
Democracy in Lebanon??? Come on, you're kidding right?

[ 08 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 08 June 2005 08:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Naw.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 08 June 2005 08:15 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Naw cancels out Yup in my books.

[ 08 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 08 June 2005 09:19 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
So apparently Sampson was a terrorist -- he committed suicide when he pulled the temple down.

In fact, it's not dying in an attack that makes you a terrorist. Soliders die in attacks all the time, and to describe an action as a "suicide mission" is typically used in praising the soliders' bravery.

As long as they're "our" soliders, of course.

Terrorism is the delibrate murder of civilians for political ends. Just ask Sharon -- in Unit 101, terrorism was their primary mission.

The marines were soliders in a combat zone, occupying a land 5,000 miles from their own shores. They were killed doing it. That was an act of war, not terror.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2005 12:10 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Democracy in Lebanon??? Come on, you're kidding right?

Oh yeah, I forgot. Arabs are nothing but terrorists.

By the way, your military analysis doesn't explain much about tactics, but it reveals quite a bit about you.

Have you ever seen the film Gallipoli? Have you heard of The Somme? Does the term, Kamikaze ring any bells?

What did Sgt. Dan Daly tell his fellow Marines at Belleau Wood?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 12:18 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
thermopylae. The Three Hundred Spartans. What a mess. Slipping on blood, bodies, yuk.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 09 June 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Not to mention Masada, where 900 Hebrew terrorists ended their hopeless attack on Rome (in the course of which they murdered thousands of moderates Hebrews) by butchering their wives and childern before killing themseves(link).

These particular suicide terrorists are national heroes in Israel. New officers in IDF combat units go to Masada to swear their oaths of alliagence. Not kidding.

They even admit to having a "Masada complex," which is supposed to mean they are afraid of being destroyed. Of course, the real history of these intolerent, suicidal fanatics suggests a whole new meaning of the words "Masada complex."

73: As the Romans have a huge earth assault ramp built from west over to the summit of Masada, the Zealots realize that their defeat is near. Their leader, Eleazar Ben Yair, orders that all Zealots are to be killed. 10 men are appointed to kill the others, then 1 of the remaining 10, and then he commits suicide.

1963-65: The Masada is excavated, and has ever since been a tourist attraction, in addition to the position it enjoys as an Israeli national symbol.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 09 June 2005 08:03 AM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Democracy in Lebanon??? Come on, you're kidding right?

[ 08 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Still siding with this racist, Mac? Just curious.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 June 2005 08:42 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Beautiful Lebanon. How could anyone not want Lebanon to thrive and prosper?

And who should decide their future but the Lebanese?


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Blind_Patriot
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posted 09 June 2005 10:51 AM      Profile for Blind_Patriot     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hezbollah Terrorist? I don't think so. They haven't done anything (yet) in their long history that is of the Boogy-Man Terrorist Complex.
From: North Of The Authoritarian Regime | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 11:41 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Oh yeah, I forgot. Arabs are nothing but terrorists.

By the way, your military analysis doesn't explain much about tactics, but it reveals quite a bit about you.

Have you ever seen the film Gallipoli? Have you heard of The Somme? Does the term, Kamikaze ring any bells?

What did Sgt. Dan Daly tell his fellow Marines at Belleau Wood?


REALLY? Well what it REVEALS about me is that I use the CBC as a source. Now what does that reveal about your rush to judgment???


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 11:41 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Blind_Patriot:
Hezbollah Terrorist? I don't think so. They haven't done anything (yet) in their long history that is of the Boogy-Man Terrorist Complex.

Open your eyes.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 11:46 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
Not to mention Masada, where 900 Hebrew terrorists ended their hopeless attack on Rome (in the course of which they murdered thousands of moderates Hebrews) by butchering their wives and children before killing themselves(link).

These particular suicide terrorists are national heroes in Israel. New officers in IDF combat units go to Masada to swear their oaths of alliagence. Not kidding.

They even admit to having a "Masada complex," which is supposed to mean they are afraid of being destroyed. Of course, the real history of these intolerent, suicidal fanatics suggests a whole new meaning of the words "Masada complex."

73: As the Romans have a huge earth assault ramp built from west over to the summit of Masada, the Zealots realize that their defeat is near. Their leader, Eleazar Ben Yair, orders that all Zealots are to be killed. 10 men are appointed to kill the others, then 1 of the remaining 10, and then he commits suicide.

1963-65: The Masada is excavated, and has ever since been a tourist attraction, in addition to the position it enjoys as an Israeli national symbol.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]



Great "restatement" of history.
How you can compare the collective act of suicide in the face of extermination to homicide bombers is beyond common sense According to your source (without your interpretation):

"In 66 C.E. the Jews rose up in what has come to be known as the Great Revolt against Rome, which called it the Jewish War. Even after defeat by the Romans, a group of Zealots were not ready to surrender. They barricaded themselves with their women and children in the mountain fortress of Masada and for three years held out against a Roman siege. Their resistance, which had no military purpose, ended in collective suicide. In recent years, the Zealots have become heroes to Israelis and to Jews elsewhere in the world. "

Then somehow you equate this to fanatics murdering innocent women and children in...pizzerias. Wonderful!!! Well then there is more room for discussion is there?

A more neutral recounting of Masada:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 11:49 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Beautiful Lebanon. How could anyone not want Lebanon to thrive and prosper?

And who should decide their future but the Lebanese?


I agree. But I think the results and process is the question. And regrettably the result. One can only hope that Hezbullah becomes less "militant" over time.Lebanon was once the Paris of the Middle East. Let's hope it reflourishes.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:

Still siding with this racist, Mac? Just curious.


Excuse me...exactly what do you mean?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 June 2005 11:50 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
There it is again. The ... pizzerias.

Are pizzerias on someone's "talking points" or something?

Because I'm not aware that Hezbollah has ever been accused of bombing a pizzeria.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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posted 09 June 2005 11:59 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Briguy:
Still siding with this racist, Mac? Just curious.

Please don't, Briguy.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:00 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
There it is again. The ... pizzerias.

Are pizzerias on someone's "talking points" or something?

Because I'm not aware that Hezbollah has ever been accused of bombing a pizzeria.


OK you are right,sorry. Forget Pizzerias that was another one of their partners just embassys, or MacDonalds or farmers (on the border) but just "legitimate targets"


http://www.bnaibrith.ca/institute/dfait/DFAIT2003-06.html


http://www.infoisrael.net/cgi-local/text.pl?source=2/a/i/archives/050120031

And after all just because a little known undemocratic country like...Canada has determined that Hezbulah is a terrorist organization....we shouldn't accept that should we??

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
No Yards
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Babbler # 4169

posted 09 June 2005 12:11 PM      Profile for No Yards   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
"Hezbollah has been linked to a series of attacks against Israel, the United States and other Western targets, including the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. marines at their barracks in Beirut in 1983."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/middleeast/hezbollah.html

A terrorist by any other name is still a terrorist.
Democracy in Lebanon??? Come on, you're kidding right?

[ 08 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]



Wouldn't a military target be a legitimate target?

And isn't Isreal and the USA linked to attacks on Palestine, Lebanon, and other Arab targets?

And how many babble IDs does one person need?


From: Defending traditional marriage since June 28, 2005 | Registered: Jun 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:17 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Yard:

I am talking about civilian targets by way of homicide bombing. Last time I looked at the news neither the USA nor Israel were blowing up women and children in buses, or farmers (intentionally).

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 June 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
just because a little known undemocratic country like...Canada has determined that Hezbulah is a terrorist organization....we shouldn't accept that should we??

Look, Peech: I am a Canadian citizen. Do you read me?

I am a Canadian citizen.

I, and all other Canadian citizens -- we run this country. Do you read me? Nobody else runs this country. We do.

And if any one of us feels that our public servants -- that is as in SERVANTS -- has made an error in designating a group as a terrorist group, then it is our responsibility as citizens and as human beings to fight that designation.

Do you read me, Peech?

And if some of our public SERVANTS have lost the understanding that they act for us, rather than the other way 'round, then that is sad, but it mainly means that we have to fight back all the harder to preserve democracy here at least.

Do you read me, Peech?

How DARE you imply that I should be following the advice of limp noodles like Bill Graham and Irwin Cotler? How DARE you? They work for me -- not the other way 'round.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
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Babbler # 560

posted 09 June 2005 12:23 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You can't be serious.

No, instead the US blows them up at wedding ceremonies, and in their homes, and at checkpoints. And then tortures them in prisons.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
ronb
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posted 09 June 2005 12:24 PM      Profile for ronb     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Then you haven't been looking carefully.

That's to the "Last time i looked" comment BTW.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: ronb ]

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: ronb ]


From: gone | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
SKALDL:

LOUD and clear.
Maybe you should run for office?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:28 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
For clarification whom is the US blowing up at wedding ceremonies, checkpoints etc?
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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Babbler # 9272

posted 09 June 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ronb:
[QB]Then you haven't been looking carefully.

That's to the "Last time i looked" comment BTW.[QB]

BTW:

please give some exapmples of: "the USA nor Israel were blowing up women and children in buses, or farmers."

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And regrettably the result. One can only hope that Hezbullah becomes less "militant" over time.Lebanon was once the Paris of the Middle East.

I'm not sure why I bother, but do you recall the circumstance that led to the creation of Hezbollah?

Do you know how many thousands of Lebanese were killed by the country that invaded them, who helped precipitate their civil war and who helped bomb "The Paris of the Middle East" into rubble?

Hezbollah drove the invader out of most of Lebanon (Israel hasn't left all of the country - call it an "occupation" if you will), and not through being "terrorists"; but by being a superior fighting force supported by the people whom they were liberating.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 June 2005 12:30 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
People getting married or trying to pass checkpoints in Iraq.
From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:32 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I'm not sure why I bother, but do you recall the circumstance that led to the creation of Hezbollah?

Do you know how many thousands of Lebanese were killed by the country that invaded them, who helped precipitate their civil war and who helped bomb "The Paris of the Middle East" into rubble?

Hezbollah drove the invader out of most of Lebanon (Israel hasn't left all of the country - call it an "occupation" if you will), and not through being "terrorists"; but by being a superior fighting force supported by the people whom they were liberating.



For a moment I thought you were accurate and were going to refer to the real culprit....Syria and internal civil war...but alas....

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
People getting married or trying to pass checkpoints in Iraq.

Any specific examples?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2005 12:33 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

please give some exapmples of: "the USA nor Israel were blowing up women and children in buses, or farmers."


I'm sure you'll have no problem with the source.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 12:37 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

I'm sure you'll have no problem with the source.


Again let's compare apples to Apples such as "intentional acts of terror" (blowing up civilians in buses etc. You may recall that when your heroes kill Israelis they celebrate.
According to you source (which I like thanks) the shelling were an attempt to stop acts of terror and an error was made. According to your source
shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre

Cheers

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
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posted 09 June 2005 12:43 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sorry, Peech, you're boring me now. There are lots of threads on rabble where, over the past three years, we've been documenting case after case of US atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan. Go find them. I don't feel like doing it all over again.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 09 June 2005 12:47 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech, you are trolling.

You don't even have to search babble. Just read the Grope and Flail every day. All these incidents are massively overdocumented. You'd have to be a recluse to have missed them.

And there is absolutely no way that any other babbler should be required to do your research for you.

Troll this way any longer, and I will protest to the moderator.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Black Dog
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posted 09 June 2005 02:13 PM      Profile for Black Dog   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Boy, those Israelis, despite having the best-funded and most sophisticated military in the region sure are prone to mistakes. Hardly a day goes by without reading about some kid getting shot by accident (oops!), civilians dying when extrajudicial murder (sorry!) attempts go awry, UN peackeepers mistakenly shelled (my mistake!), Arab villages massacred (whoopsie!), U.S. Navy ships attacked (accidents happen!) etc etc etc.

In that spirit I submit to you the new Israeli national anthem!

(I'm laughing, but it's a laugh of disgust.)

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: The Dude ]


From: Vancouver | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 09 June 2005 03:04 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
By the way, longsuffering fellow that I am, I checked Peech's links and read through them.

Guess what? To nobody's surprise, while both claim Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, neither refers to any terrorist act Hezbollah might have committed. Much like Peech. One doesn't mention *anything* Hezbollah might have actually *done*, just makes a bald assertion. The other talks about the bombing of those marines. Sorry, marines aren't civilians, killing soldiers is not an attack designed to terrorize a population.

Peech, like a whole buncha others that denounce Hezbollah, are basically just saying "Well, they're A-rabs and they don't align with US policy aims, and all A-rabs that disagrees with U.S.A! are the same, so they must be terr'ists." Buncha bullshit, implicitly racist.

Please. Hezbollah are a Lebanese self-defence organization--and apparently a very popular one. They are not Palestinian, they are not Iraqi, they are not Afghans, they are not Al-Quaeda. They are not even identical to other Lebanese organizations dominated by Muslims--fancy that!
And they're not terrorists, perhaps largely because they're militarily tough enough that they don't have to be. The elections suggest that they're also electorally tough enough to have no need for terror. And we know perfectly well that if there were any hint that the elections were less than free and fair (say, with as many irregularities as in the US) the media would be all over it saying they'd stolen the election.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
YPK
rabble-rouser
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posted 09 June 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for YPK     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Hezbollah are a Lebanese self-defence organization--and apparently a very popular one. They are not Palestinian, they are not Iraqi, they are not Afghans, they are not Al-Quaeda. They are not even identical to other Lebanese organizations dominated by Muslims--fancy that! And they're not terrorists, perhaps largely because they're militarily tough enough that they don't have to be. The elections suggest that they're also electorally tough enough to have no need for terror.

Jeez. Can you gush any more? This sounds like material for a booklet to accompany a Hezbollah action figure.


From: GTA | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 09 June 2005 04:35 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Excuse me...exactly what do you mean?

Democracy in Lebanon??? Come on, you're kidding right?



In your short thesis (italics above), you imply that the Lebanese are unable to form (or support?) a democratic government. Why would you think suggest such a thing? What is it, in your mind, that makes mentioning democracy and Lebanon in the same sentence a joke? I'm genuinely curious as to the answer.


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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Babbler # 7770

posted 09 June 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peech:

Great "restatement" of history.

If by "restatement" you mean "stripping away of nationalist propaganda" then yes, it is.


How you can compare the collective act of suicide in the face of extermination to homicide bombers is beyond common sense

But of course they weren't facing "extermination," but rather occupation -- just like the Palestinians and the Lebanese.

And "homicide" implies murder. The Marines were combatants. Their deaths were not murder. Hence, "homicide bomber" is an incorrect term.

According to your source (without your interpretation):

"In 66 C.E. the Jews rose up in what has come to be known as the Great Revolt against Rome, which called it the Jewish War. Even after defeat by the Romans, a group of Zealots were not ready to surrender. They barricaded themselves with their women and children in the mountain fortress of Masada and for three years held out against a Roman siege. Their resistance, which had no military purpose, ended in collective suicide. In recent years, the Zealots have become heroes to Israelis and to Jews elsewhere in the world. "

Key points: surrender to Rome was not "extermination." You're confusing the loss of power with the loss of existence -- a common Zionist mistake.

Then somehow you equate this to fanatics murdering innocent women and children in...pizzerias.

It never fails . . . any post by Peech is certain to include at least one completely fabricated account of the other side's position.

Of course, I never defended the pizzeria attack or any other attack on the civilians. I said dying in an attack doesn't make you a terrorist -- the choice of target makes you a terrorist. By your "logic," since pilots in bombers sometimes kill civilians, any combat pilot anywhere at any time is a "terrorist."

Of course you would like us to believe that everything done with roadside bombs and explosive belts is terrorism and therefore immoral, and everything done with F-16s and tanks is war and therefore not immoral. But this self-serving, intellectually dishonest definition serves no one but Israeli (and American) terrorists.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 09 June 2005 05:24 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Yard:

I am talking about civilian targets by way of homicide bombing. Last time I looked at the news neither the USA nor Israel were blowing up women and children in buses, or farmers (intentionally).

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Look harder.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 09 June 2005 05:30 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
"As reported on numerous Palestinian and international human rights web sites, as well as by foreign journalists, there has been an upswing of attacks by armed Israeli civilians against unarmed Palestinian civilians. For instance, on Friday, March 25, armed groups of Israeli Talmudic settlers from the Yitzar settlement (outside of Nablus in the center of the West Bank) attacked the Palestinian village of Asira Al-Qibliya. Wearing black masks and screaming, the Israeli settlers went into people’s homes, threw rocks through people’s windows and beat Palestinians.

Masked Israeli settlers were also attacking villages in the Hebron area as well. On March 24, Israeli settler militias attacked shepherds and international peace activists (including two Americans) who were merely attempting to document the attacks while the Israeli military did nothing to stop them. “KL”, a Danish ISM activist wrote of the incident:

“Three young soldiers get out just to stand around and do nothing, despite the fact that we repeatedly ask, as the settlers begin to kick and beat us. Not until a grown man has thrown himself on top of our female American friend and punched her many times in the face, neck and chest, does one of the soldiers help to get him off of her. Afterwards the soldier decides to help the man find his glasses. We draw back toward the village with the shepherds, as the screaming settlers try to get past the soldiers. We phoned the police as soon as the two youngsters got out of the pick-up, and were positively surprised that they promised to come quickly. I had heard that the police often don't really handle cases involving settlers out of fear. My positive attitude toward the Israeli Police did not last long. It took several calls before they finally showed up one and a half hour later. We tried to explain to them what happened, but soon the settlers came driving down again and started yelling in Hebrew at the police. Before we knew it, the police had taken our passports, the settlers were going home, and we are on our way to the police station”. (Electronic Intifada, April 1, 2005). "link

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 09 June 2005 05:33 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Chris Hedges writing in Harper's:

"Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen.

Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered – death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo – but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport."

link

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Reason
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posted 09 June 2005 06:28 PM      Profile for Reason   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Any specific examples?


There is one that leaps to mind unfortunatly. It is a case study, if you will in cultural differences.

I Iraq, about a yr & 1/2 ago, an Iraqi family was out for a drive, celebrating a birthday or something (the full story escapes me, but I'm sure someone here has it).

Said family approaching a US check point miss the stop sign (or it was in the wrong language, regardless, drove through). Soldiers fire warning shots into the air, as per their Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs)... To an Iraqi, this is a sign of celebration, so let's honk the horn and keep on trucking.

The soldiers mistook the still advancing vehicle as a threat and opened up on the vehicle, killing the parents in the front, and wounding the children in the back.

Warnign shots must be directed near an Iraqi to have effect, otherwise, they will think you are celebrating something...

(Shooting in the air is not something I understand... Have these people not ever dropped something on the table to gain an understanding of gravity? Celebratory fire kills people just as well as aimed shots. the difference is, celebratory fire is completely random).


From: Ontario | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 09 June 2005 06:57 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"These people"? Yes, gravity is a post-Newtonian concept, not easily understood by a primitive people whose culture was arrested sometime during the Middle Ages.

I know a guy whose dad, on V-J Day, grabbed a machine gun from its Guam storehouse and fired off a magazine into the air to celebrate. This, from someone whose people had just proved that most modern of theories of physics, nuclear fission.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 07:21 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Never mind him, he thinks soldiers shoot stray dogs because dogs eat corpses and then move on to children. He's full of weekend-hunter campfire wisdom, and common-sense lay-anthropology with an anglo-christian buff, and such.

I read an interesting entry in an Iraqi blog about how there is actually a code system understood by some Iraqis regarding the firing off of ammunition.

This blogger related how he had been visiting the country with a friend and they had a hand gun which they were firing off into the air. A local Iraqi came up shortly and offered condolences to the bloggers friend for the death of his father, which the bloggers friend had signalled by the patern of shots.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 09 June 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by YPK:

Jeez. Can you gush any more? This sounds like material for a booklet to accompany a Hezbollah action figure.

By which you appear to mean "I have nothing factual with which to dispute any of your points, but I can't stand the concept of you being right so I'll resort to sneering without substance."

Unless maybe you think they *are* Iraqis?

Look. As far as I'm concerned, Hezbollah are good guys. I don't see why it's impossible for them to be good guys just 'cause they're brown. The facts:
Item--Israel invaded Lebanon, a sovereign country
Item--Israel killed lotsa civilians in Lebanon, worsened the chaos generally, committed some atrocities, and bombed the crap out of Beirut
Item--The US came along and helped, in a UN mission which was doubtless hypothetically neutral but which clearly supported the invaders. They also, incidentally, shelled the coast nearly randomly with big naval guns.
Item--Hezbollah took up arms against the invaders and was the most important force involved in the process of driving them out.
Item--Hezbollah does not seem to have targetted a single goddamn civilian in that whole time
Item--Hezbollah didn't invade nobody
Item--Hezbollah didn't terrorize their own local citizenry
Item--Hezbollah also established significant charitable operations
Item--Hezbollah is now so popular that in the region where they mainly operate, they win elections handily.

ITEM--if Hezbollah had been a resistance force in the US against a Mexican invasion, you'd think they were fucking saints. No way would you be accusing anyone who didn't happen to be making false claims that they were terrorists of "gushing".

I've no doubt that, given that they're politically active, the political wing of Hezbollah has indulged in some sleazy sectarian politics, like every other political group in Lebanon. But terrorists? Nope, sorry, bzzt--terrorism does not mean "defending your country when we don't want you to."


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:02 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
"As reported on numerous Palestinian and international human rights web sites, as well as by foreign journalists, there has been an upswing of attacks by armed Israeli civilians against unarmed Palestinian civilians. For instance, on Friday, March 25, armed groups of Israeli Talmudic settlers from the Yitzar settlement (outside of Nablus in the center of the West Bank) attacked the Palestinian village of Asira Al-Qibliya. Wearing black masks and screaming, the Israeli settlers went into people’s homes, threw rocks through people’s windows and beat Palestinians.

Masked Israeli settlers were also attacking villages in the Hebron area as well. On March 24, Israeli settler militias attacked shepherds and international peace activists (including two Americans) who were merely attempting to document the attacks while the Israeli military did nothing to stop them. “KL”, a Danish ISM activist wrote of the incident:

“Three young soldiers get out just to stand around and do nothing, despite the fact that we repeatedly ask, as the settlers begin to kick and beat us. Not until a grown man has thrown himself on top of our female American friend and punched her many times in the face, neck and chest, does one of the soldiers help to get him off of her. Afterwards the soldier decides to help the man find his glasses. We draw back toward the village with the shepherds, as the screaming settlers try to get past the soldiers. We phoned the police as soon as the two youngsters got out of the pick-up, and were positively surprised that they promised to come quickly. I had heard that the police often don't really handle cases involving settlers out of fear. My positive attitude toward the Israeli Police did not last long. It took several calls before they finally showed up one and a half hour later. We tried to explain to them what happened, but soon the settlers came driving down again and started yelling in Hebrew at the police. Before we knew it, the police had taken our passports, the settlers were going home, and we are on our way to the police station”. (Electronic Intifada, April 1, 2005). "link

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


good source the electronic "Intifada"...neutral i'm sure. Believeable too, I'm sure. After all nothing to gain....right? Just more street theatre.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:03 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

By which you appear to mean "I have nothing factual with which to dispute any of your points, but I can't stand the concept of you being right so I'll resort to sneering without substance."

Unless maybe you think they *are* Iraqis?

Look. As far as I'm concerned, Hezbollah are good guys. I don't see why it's impossible for them to be good guys just 'cause they're brown. The facts:
Item--Israel invaded Lebanon, a sovereign country
Item--Israel killed lotsa civilians in Lebanon, worsened the chaos generally, committed some atrocities, and bombed the crap out of Beirut
Item--The US came along and helped, in a UN mission which was doubtless hypothetically neutral but which clearly supported the invaders. They also, incidentally, shelled the coast nearly randomly with big naval guns.
Item--Hezbollah took up arms against the invaders and was the most important force involved in the process of driving them out.
Item--Hezbollah does not seem to have targetted a single goddamn civilian in that whole time
Item--Hezbollah didn't invade nobody
Item--Hezbollah didn't terrorize their own local citizenry
Item--Hezbollah also established significant charitable operations
Item--Hezbollah is now so popular that in the region where they mainly operate, they win elections handily.

ITEM--if Hezbollah had been a resistance force in the US against a Mexican invasion, you'd think they were fucking saints. No way would you be accusing anyone who didn't happen to be making false claims that they were terrorists of "gushing".

I've no doubt that, given that they're politically active, the political wing of Hezbollah has indulged in some sleazy sectarian politics, like every other political group in Lebanon. But terrorists? Nope, sorry, bzzt--terrorism does not mean "defending your country when we don't want you to."



Just because YOU put the word item doesn't make it FACT.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:06 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS::


Excuse me...for the record Are YOU accusing me of fabrication???


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:08 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

Yes everything done with explosive belts is terrorism and will soon be universally declared as crimes against humanity as was done by Amnesty International, BTW RS.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 10:16 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well that is a silly politicization of a war tactic. Gross actually, given that it essentially vilifies a kind of weapon that is commonly used by the disenfranchised against the well armed. Killing civilians is already a war crime, no matter what manner it is done. Trying to identifying a specific weapon, which is far less lethal than a 500 kg bomb is ridiculous abuse of legality that can only serve the purpose of vilifying those who do not have access to professional war fighting means.

I'd like to see the Amnesty statement in this regard to idenfying suicide bombing as a Crime Against Humanity. Theoretically, you could use water to commit a crime against humanity.

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:17 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
No action can ever justify the deliberate and arbitrarily killing of civilians, said Amnesty International. The right to life is a fundamental right which must be respected by all. There has to be an end to such acts of carnage.
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150131996

And BTW home come there is no discussion here about a real occupation that of Lebanon by Syria or is that just too politically incorrect?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:18 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well that is a silly politicization of a war tactic. Gross actually, given that it essentially vilifies a kind of weapon that is commonly used by the disenfranchised against the well armed. Killing civilians is already a war crime, no matter what manner it is done. Trying to identifying a specific weapon, which is far less lethal than a 500 kg bomb is ridiculous abuse of legality that can only serve the purpose of vilifying those who do not have access to progessional war fighting means.

I'd like to see the Amnesty statement in this regard.


Murder is murder. Do you really think Amnesty International would take (your) such a highly politicized view on homicide bombings?

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 10:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The term crime against humanity has a very specific legal meaning. Nowhere in that Amnesty release does the phrase Crime Against Humanity appear.

They note, as I just did that: "The deliberate and arbitrary killing of civilians can never be justified in any circumstances. We call on Hamas and other armed opposition groups to stop such attacks immediately.

Deliberately killing civilians is a war crime. Full Stop. But there is a big step to go commiting such 'war crimes' and rounding up a group of a thousand civilians and drowning them in a river en masse. The latter is also a war crime, but also could be classified as a Crime Against Humanity.

I would not pay too much attention to the press releases from the Simon Wiesenthal Center, in regards to this issue.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:28 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Of course never mind the Simon Wiesenthal studies because.........?

Well how about the guru Noam Chompsky would you pay any attention to what he says about mutual atrocities in the Middle East (Israeli aggression and Palestinian suicide bombings)????

Thought you might.

"NC: Those who defend suicide bombing, and there are very few, don't have a leg to stand on. Those who defend the Israeli atrocities, including the U.S. government, most intellectual opinion, a good bit of the West generally, they don't have a leg to stand."

http://www.cbc.ca/hottype/season02-03/middleeast_chomsky.html

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The term crime against humanity has a very specific legal meaning. Nowhere in that Amnesty release does the phrase Crime Against Humanity appear.

They note, as I just did that: "The deliberate and arbitrary killing of civilians can never be justified in any circumstances. We call on Hamas and other armed opposition groups to stop such attacks immediately.

Deliberately killing civilians is a war crime. Full Stop. But there is a big step to go committing such 'war crimes' and rounding up a group of a thousand civilians and drowning them in a river en masse. The latter is also a war crime, but also could be classified as a Crime Against Humanity.

I would not pay too much attention to the press releases from the Simon Wiesenthal Center, in regards to this issue.


Deliberately walking into a deli, supermarket, disco bus etc where the person knows civilians are and killing them (ie: homicide bombing) is a crime against humanity even by your definition Cue. DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 10:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You really just don't get it do you.

I am saying that there is a legal distinction between war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

They are still all crimes regardless.

The attempt to elevate the suicide bombings (a tactic specific to certain Arab religious groups) to the level or Crimes Against Humanity, is a deliberate attempt at politicizing legal language to fit an Israeli agenda.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 10:36 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The point is that killing civilians is not necessarily genocide, not is it necessarily a crime against humanity, it is definitely a war crime.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 09 June 2005 10:37 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You really just don't get it do you.

I am saying that there is a legal distinction between war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide.

They are still all crimes regardless.

The attempt to elevate the suicide bombings (a tactic specific to certain Arab religious groups) to the level or Crimes Against Humanity, is a deliberate attempt at politicizing legal language to fit an Israeli agenda.


Right! Deliberately murdering civilians FOR ANY cause is a war crime.

For example: "Amnesty International strongly condemns the killing of civilians in a suicide bombing on Sunday 25 February 1996 and calls on Hamas to stop such bombings.

We utterly condemn this appalling attack, said Amnesty Internationals Secretary General Pierre Sané, who recently led a delegation to Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

The deliberate and arbitrary killing of civilians can never be justified in any circumstances. We call on Hamas and other armed opposition groups to stop such attacks immediately."

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/ENGMDE150131996

[ 09 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 09 June 2005 10:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Right! Deliberately murdering civilians FOR ANY cause is a war crime.


Right, and this is what I have been saying.

I was simply trying to clarify terms so that everyone is clear in the discussion. War crimes, Crimes against humanity and genocide are different things. And you keep lumping them all together.

Now would you please stop jumping up and down on everyone, anytime people try and explain things in a perspectuve that does not seem immdediatly positive to Israel.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 June 2005 12:58 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
And BTW home come there is no discussion here about a real occupation that of Lebanon by Syria or is that just too politically incorrect?

No, but it might be because Syria no longer occupies Lebanon. By the way, who is occupying the Golan Heights these days?

I realise that talking to you is a waste of time, but I couldn't let this go:

quote:
According to you source (which I like thanks) the shelling were an attempt to stop acts of terror and an error was made. According to your source
shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_Massacre

No, it wasn't "according to my source" it was

quote:
Israel immediately expressed regret for the loss of innocent lives, saying that the UN compound was not the intended target of the shelling, but that it was hit "due to incorrect targeting based on erroneous data.

The source said:

quote:
The UN investigated the incident in detail, concluding "while the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, the pattern of impacts in the Qana area makes it unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of technical and/or procedural errors".

A video recording made by a UNIFIL soldier showed an Israeli unmanned observation drone in the vicinity at the time of the shelling. The leaking of the recording caused considerable embarrassment to Israel, which had repeatedly denied the presence of a drone.


The Israelis were lying.

Are you that stupid, that you think you can prove the opposite of the article's meaning by selectively quoting from it, when you must know that whoever posted it in the first place would know you are lying?


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 01:09 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
He's that stupid.
From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 01:19 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
It seems pointless to try and pin you down, Peech, because you either have no idea what you are saying, or it seems advantageous to you for some reason to pretend to be dumber then you really are.

If the killing of civilians is a war crime, and the killing of soliders is not, than killing soliders with an explosive belt is not a war crime, and therefore not every use of an explosive belt is a war crime. It's simple logic. Maybe if you go to a quiet place and count on your fingers it will help you grasp the concept.

On another subject, you can start complaining about other people's supposedly not "neutral" sources when you find some neutral of your own, and cite them.

You always claim the sources are bad because you don't like the politics. It's just an excuse to discard facts you don't like. Your own sources are typical flaming bigots with reputations for lying and a passionate love of the Israeli Reich.

I sorry you hate people who tell the truth about Israel, but that doesn't make it any less true.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
DrConway
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posted 10 June 2005 06:01 AM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Deliberately walking into a deli, supermarket, disco bus etc where the person knows civilians are and killing them (ie: homicide bombing) is a crime against humanity even by your definition Cue. DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS.

See, this is what skdadl was talking about when she brought up that pizzeria thing.

Ever single geedee time y'all bring up the suicide bombers it's always a goddamn pizzeria you guys say the suicide bomber was at when they went up in pink mist.

I dunno about you but I sure as hell don't think ever single suicide bomber in Israel ALWAYS goes to a freakin pizza place to turn themselves into so much pink mist along with whoever else is in the area.

It's this insistent refrain of suicide-bomber-pizzeria, suicide-bomber-pizzeria, that gives rise to the notion that it might be one of them recycled talking points pro-Israeli folks get.


From: You shall not side with the great against the powerless. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fidel
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posted 10 June 2005 08:06 AM      Profile for Fidel     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They have to do the blowing themselves up in pizzerias thing, because they don't have any bulldozers or helicopter gunships. It's counter-terrorism on a budget.
From: Viva La Revolución | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 June 2005 09:12 AM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I also brought up the pizzeria thing because I thought that this was a thread about Hezbollah. Yes?

And as far as I'm aware, Hezbollah has not bombed any pizzerias. Peech keeps trying to slide the focus on to Hamas, in order to fuzz the issue, I guess, and to smear Hezbollah by association.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 June 2005 11:20 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I don't think he's trying to fuzz them together. I think he honestly doesn't know the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah.

Robert Fisk recently pointed out in an Alternative Radio interview with David Barsamian, that Israel created the necessity for Hezbollah when it invaded Lebanon, and then was active in creating Hamas as a way to undermine the PLO and the Palestinian secular nationalist movement.

One could say that Israel is its own worst enemy.


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 01:35 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Ever single geedee time y'all bring up the suicide bombers it's always a goddamn pizzeria you guys say the suicide bomber was at when they went up in pink mist.


How very prosaic of you.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Briguy
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posted 10 June 2005 01:52 PM      Profile for Briguy     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Fidel:
They have to do the blowing themselves up in pizzerias thing, because they don't have any bulldozers or helicopter gunships. It's counter-terrorism on a budget.

Actually, they don't. And shouldn't. But that is far beside the point if this thread, seeing as how Hezbollah doesn't employ this tactic.

Peech, I can understand why you've ignored the questions in my second post. Most racists don't actually think they're racist (or think that racism against certain groups is just dandy, because those groups are Bad People).


From: No one is arguing that we should run the space program based on Physics 101. | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 01:54 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The real question is did Peech actuall read more than the first sentence of your post?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 10 June 2005 02:22 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Peech:
Deliberately walking into a deli, supermarket, disco bus etc where the person knows civilians are and killing them (ie: homicide bombing) is a crime against humanity even by your definition Cue. DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIANS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.Conway: See, this is what skdadl was talking about when she brought up that pizzeria thing.

Ever single geedee time y'all bring up the suicide bombers it's always a goddamn pizzeria you guys say the suicide bomber was at when they went up in pink mist.

I dunno about you but I sure as hell don't think ever single suicide bomber in Israel ALWAYS goes to a freakin pizza place to turn themselves into so much pink mist along with whoever else is in the area.

It's this insistent refrain of suicide-bomber-pizzeria, suicide-bomber-pizzeria, that gives rise to the notion that it might be one of them recycled talking points pro-Israeli folks get.


I do not see the word pizzeria at all in what you quoted from Peech. I see "deli, supermarket, disco bus etc " but no pizzeria.

However I find this kind of a post a bit callous simpply because one of the most infamous suicide bombings (and I believe one of the first during the second intifada) that caught the attention of the world was at Sbarro's Pizzeia in Jerusalem. You may recall that dozens of innocent people were murdered there including 7 children.

In case you have forgotten about the circumstances I have attached a report from the Guardian.

Sbarro suicide bombing

Many peoples lives were effected and what appeaers to be your indifference to their suffering by your causal misuse of the pizzeria issue was not worthy of you.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 02:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
We have all read that. Very sad indeed.

I think people are objecting to the apparent inability of some people to distinguish one Arab from another, In this case Hamas and Lebanon's Party of God. I don't think any of their militants have ever engaged in a suicide bombing against civilians, have they?


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 02:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Jewish Virtual Library identifies the following groups as being involved in suicide bombings, The Labanese Party of God, is not among them:

quote:
The majority of attacks were carried out by the radical Islamic terrorist groups, Hamas (89 attacks) and Islamic Jihad (59), followed by Fatah (58) and the PFLP (8).

JVL WEB PAGE

I mean why are we talking about an Hamas action committed in Israel by Palestinian Sunni Arabs, in the context of actions by Lebanese Shia Arabs? Seen one Arab militant you have seen them all, I guess.

It seemd vaguely, well, racist.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
ohara
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posted 10 June 2005 02:58 PM      Profile for ohara        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
We have all read that. Very sad indeed.

I think people are objecting to the apparent inability of some people to distinguish one Arab from another, In this case Hamas and Lebanon's Party of God. I don't think any of their militants have ever engaged in a suicide bombing against civilians, have they?


Well according to the web page you attach Hamas was certainly involved in many suicide bombings.

And as for Dr.Conway his post was quite clear. You need not defend him. His words speak well for themselves.


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johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:00 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Even if we do not use the marine barricks or the kidnapping and murder of the Beruit CIA station chief Buckly as an example or terrorist acts.

How about these ones.

Was Hezbollah not the same group that kidnapped American AP reporter Terry Anderson and held him for years in Beruit?

Also and I might be mistaken but did this group not carry out the 1994 i believe it was a bombing of the Argentine Jewish community in Buenos Aires Argentina. Which if memory serves killed 100 civillians and wounded about 300 more.

Even if one does not talk about attacks on "legitimate military targets" but rather only talks of attacks on civillians. Hezbollah has attacked civillians, it has kidnapped civillains and killed civillians.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:05 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Conways comments come on the tail end of series of posts talking about Palestinian Sunni Arabs attacking Israeli civilians by Peech, as if that relates to the actions of Lebanese Shia Arabs.

The only real suicide bombing I remember the Lebanese Party of God being involved with is the attack against the US Marine Barracks that killed 250 US soldiers and 50 odd French. A perfectly legitimate act of war if you ask me.

I really find your ongoing attemps at tarring any and all Arabs with a single war crime committed by Palestinian Sunni Arabs to be disgustingingly manipulative.


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:09 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Arresting someone you believe is a foreign spy and then releasing him is not up their in the ranks of serious war crimes. Please.
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pogge
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posted 10 June 2005 03:12 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Was Hezbollah not the same group that kidnapped American AP reporter Terry White and held him for years in Beruit?

Do you mean Terry Waite, who was kidnapped by Islamic Jihad and held in Beirut for 4 years?

quote:
Also and I might be mistaken but did this group not carry out the 1994 i believe it was a bombing of the Argentine Jewish community in Buenos Aires Argentina.

Certainly Israel has accused Hezbollah, along with Iran, of being behind the bombing but to the best of my knowledge it's never been proven. Unless you have a cite that says otherwise.


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johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:14 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball,

Are you saying that Terry Anderson was a spy?

As for being released i am glad to know that it only took 7 years to find out he was not a spy.


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:14 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:

Also and I might be mistaken but did this group not carry out the 1994 i believe it was a bombing of the Argentine Jewish community in Buenos Aires Argentina. Which if memory serves killed 100 civillians and wounded about 300 more.

Why oh why don't you google your shit. The amount of gossip that gets parlayed as "proven fact" when it is simply unsubstantiated rumour elvated to fact by repetion is astounding;

JVL again.

quote:
Later in 1994 came the first of several breakthroughs in the embassy bombing case. Six Lebanese and one Brazilian, arrested for operating a drug cache, were found to be members of Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed Lebanese terrorist organization. The Argentine government announced that the men were tied to the embassy bombing. After several days, however, the suspects were released due to a lack of evidence.

I mean, please Argentina? Isn't that were Mousad dug up Eicheman. There is no possibility that regular home grown anti-semite facists might have done this job and then tried to pin it on some Arabs?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Pogge i just corrected my post to Terry Anderson I got the last name wrong
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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:15 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Cueball,

Are you saying that Terry Anderson was a spy?

As for being released i am glad to know that it only took 7 years to find out he was not a spy.



He was held as a spy.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:17 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Pogge i just corrected my post to Terry Anderson I got the last name wrong

Oh you mean, again you show that you know shit from Shineola. Stop reading true crime mags published in Tel Aviv, that is my suggestion.


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pogge
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posted 10 June 2005 03:18 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh, you meant Terry Anderson. That apparently was Islamic Jihad as well.
From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:20 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball go to hell.

I got a last name wrong. I am sorry that i got Anderson's last name wrong. I will send a note to Terry Anderson to apologize for posting an incorrect last name.

I hope to someday be as good as you and never post anything in error.


Then again I do try when I am not sure if something is 100% factual to preface my post with "I am not sure ....."


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johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:25 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by pogge:
Oh, you meant Terry Anderson. That apparently was Islamic Jihad as well.

According to the bbc:

quote:
Iran has denied it has any link with the Lebanese Shi'a Muslim group Hezbollah, which Mr Anderson says held him hostage.

Hezbolla kidnapps Anderson


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:28 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Reading your drivel is a hellish punishement that is for sure.

Then why do you insist on making statement of fact such as:

quote:
Even if one does not talk about attacks on "legitimate military targets" but rather only talks of attacks on civillians. Hezbollah has attacked civillians, it has kidnapped civillains and killed civillians.

On the basis of information you are not sure about. What happened to "I am not sure ....." there?

Clearly you are operating on the basis of a preconcieved political bias, not formulating your opinions on substantiated facts.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:33 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would, just on the basis of my knowledge of war say that it is true that the Labnese Party of God has killed civilian, such is the prima facie reality of modern war. The same can be said of any militant group or army, such as the IDF.

In fact if we are going to talk about heinous attrocities we might as well bring up Sabra and Shatila, which is by any strech of the imagination the event that sets the bar for war crimes committed in Lebanon, and it was not the Party of God that was doing the killing but Israel's allies the Christian Flenagists, under the direct supervision of the IDF.


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pogge
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posted 10 June 2005 03:34 PM      Profile for pogge   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by johnpauljones:
Hezbolla kidnapps Anderson

Granted. This is supported by other news stories I've found. But I've found no evidence that Hezbollah had any part in the Argentina bombings - just accusations.


From: Why is this a required field? | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
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posted 10 June 2005 03:39 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
jpj, perhaps you can understand that the people responding to you right now have responded to these few same reports about Hezbollah again and again on this board over the years, and yet no amount of documentation ever seems to succeed against attempts to revive clear errors, or against categorical statements about what remain uncertainties.

That is where some of the anger is coming from. It is as though there were some kind of powerful propaganda out there that is simply impervious to evidence or careful argument.


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johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:40 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball you are right. Because as you have pointed out clearly and properly.

Hezbollah has never kidnapped any civillians

Hezbollah has never attacjed any civillians

And

Hezbollah has never killed any civillians.

I want to apologize to those whose kidnapping maiming and or killing has been attributed to Hezbollah.

I want to apologize to those members of Hezbollah that have been accused of kidnapping, maiming and killing anyone.

Skdadl and I am guilty because of history on this board that is unknown to me?

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: johnpauljones ]


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I would, just on the basis of my knowledge of war say that it is true that the Labnese Party of God has killed civilian, such is the prima facie reality of modern war. The same can be said of any militant group or army, such as the IDF.

In fact if we are going to talk about heinous attrocities we might as well bring up Sabra and Shatila, which is by any strech of the imagination the event that sets the bar for war crimes committed in Lebanon, and it was not the Party of God that was doing the killing but Israel's allies the Christian Felangists, under the direct supervision of the IDF.

[Smirk]Cut and paste has really improved the nature of discourse.[/Smirk]

What you need to establish though, if you want to put the Party of God in the same bracket as Hamas or the IDF, is that there is a consitent "joint criminal enterprise," in which killing civilians is part of an explicit policy of the organization, not just the advent of mistakes, or the acts of individuals.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
johnpauljones
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posted 10 June 2005 03:44 PM      Profile for johnpauljones     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Cueball touche

I give my undertaking to better research my thoughts prior to posting.

Can you cut me a bit of slack?

I think it is time to find a cold beverage and an airconditioned environment to drink it in


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 03:46 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Sure.

What you need to establish though, if you want to put the Party of God in the same bracket as Hamas or the IDF, is that there is a consitent "joint criminal enterprise," in which killing civilians is part of an explicit policy of the organization, not just the advent of mistakes, or the acts of individuals.


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caoimhin
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posted 10 June 2005 04:07 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Ghaleb Awali?

Didn't the leader of hizbullah say he would write 'their history in blood'. Standup guy. The lebanese have something to look forward to?

I think what Peach was getting at was Iran's hand and Syria's hand joining hands with hizbollah hands - support and more support. That word suzerain keeps coming to mind. Democracy indeed.

I think congradulations are due. What were those rallys after Hariri's death about anyway.


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N.Beltov
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posted 10 June 2005 04:54 PM      Profile for N.Beltov   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
caoimhin: I think what Peach was getting at ...
Peach asserted that Hizb Allah was a terrorist organization and the Lebanese are incapable of governing themselves. Most of us have a pretty good idea what he was "getting at".

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rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 06:09 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by ohara:
I do not see the word pizzeria at all in what you quoted from Peech. I see "deli, supermarket, disco bus etc " but no pizzeria.

However I find this kind of a post a bit callous simpply because one of the most infamous suicide bombings (and I believe one of the first during the second intifada) that caught the attention of the world was at Sbarro's Pizzeia in Jerusalem. You may recall that dozens of innocent people were murdered there including 7 children.

In case you have forgotten about the circumstances I have attached a report from the Guardian.

Sbarro suicide bombing

Many peoples lives were effected and what appeaers to be your indifference to their suffering by your causal misuse of the pizzeria issue was not worthy of you.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: ohara ]


Let's try to be accurate. Last time I checked, 15 was a little over a dozen, not "dozens."

Still murdering 15 civilians, that's really bad. Evil, in fact.

I'll see your 15 and raise you 2,000:Sabra and Shatila massacre

Two wrongs don't make a right. But let's keep a sense of proportion about things.


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rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 06:26 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
The Jewish Virtual Library identifies the following groups as being involved in suicide bombings, The Labanese Party of God, is not among them:

JVL WEB PAGE

I mean why are we talking about an Hamas action committed in Israel by Palestinian Sunni Arabs, in the context of actions by Lebanese Shia Arabs? Seen one Arab militant you have seen them all, I guess.

It seemd vaguely, well, racist.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


I know that there were a lot of suicide bombings in Southern Lebanon during the Israeli occupation. There were directed at the occupying forces, natch., and since Israel, in a rare fit of common sense, failed to plant settlements in South Lebanon, civilians were not among the targets.

Hiz. did carry out a lot of kidnappings of civilians (they picked up this nasty habit from Israel)
(by the Irgunand the state of Israel.)

Kidnapping could be considered terrorism, but, as is often the case, the question is why kidnapping makes Hiz. "terrorists" but makes Israel and the United States nothing of the kind.


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rsfarrell
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posted 10 June 2005 06:32 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
[QB]Ghaleb Awali?

Didn't the leader of hizbullah say he would write 'their history in blood'. Standup guy.
[QB]


Kind of like Jacobinsky saying "Judea will be reborn in blood and fire."

Still, I like either one better than "drugged cockroaches in a bottle."


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 10 June 2005 07:28 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:

Didn't the leader of hizbullah say he would write 'their history in blood'. Standup guy.

Whose history? The invaders'? So what?

That's the kind of thing you say about invaders. For instance, if the US were ever to invade Canada, I'd write their fucking history in blood.


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al-Qa'bong
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posted 10 June 2005 08:28 PM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Didn't the leader of hizbullah say he would write 'their history in blood'.

I don't know. Did he?

As for Hezbollah attacking civilians, the US military and the IDF must be pretty puny for such attacks to have caused them both to scurry out of Lebanon.

The US was so traumatised from messin' with the Lebanese that they promptly invaded Grenada to reassert their manhood.


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DrConway
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posted 10 June 2005 10:05 PM      Profile for DrConway     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
How very prosaic of you.

Wasn't my literary device, either. It was from the book of the movie Alien Nation, where Matthew Sykes acidly notes that "some asshole put enough C4 in my car to turn me into pink mist." (His police partner had disarmed the explosive because he was sleeping in the car when someone wired it. Anyway, I didn't post here to yack about a movie. )

---

Edit to add:

While we're on the subject of those damn discos it's also suicide-bomber-disco, suicide-bomber-disco. Ever time some hoo-haw talking head brings up suicide bombers it's always the same two things. Pizzerias and discos.

I seem to recall a suicide bomber got on a bus once, so you'd think the talking heads would mention that, too, but they must be going for the word-association game or something.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ]


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Cueball
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posted 10 June 2005 10:24 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well I am glad we got this opportunity to deMISTify the misconceptions regarding the Lebanese Party of God's history in regards to suicide bombing.
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caoimhin
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posted 10 June 2005 11:34 PM      Profile for caoimhin        Edit/Delete Post
Encouraging words for the Lebanese.

Anything about rule from afar?
Democracy or no? Some form of? From your silence......??


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rsfarrell
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posted 11 June 2005 12:27 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by caoimhin:
Encouraging words for the Lebanese.

Anything about rule from afar?
Democracy or no? Some form of? From your silence......??


That is one of the most disjointed, poorly written posts I have seen on this site. The only person I've seen who writes even close to this badly is . . . Peech. Hmmmm.


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Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:05 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:07 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

Once again you are wrong about your definition of Crimes against Humanity unless of course the law is irrelevant to your cause .

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-45.9/41465.html#rid-41474
"crime against humanity" means murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution or any other inhumane act or omission that is committed against any civilian population or any identifiable group and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, constitutes a crime against humanity according to customary international law or conventional international law or by virtue of its being criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations, whether or not it constitutes a contravention of the law in force at the time and in the place of its commission.

So according to the definition of C A H suicide bombing (murder targeting civilians) is a CAH.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:17 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

Let's try to be accurate. Last time I checked, 15 was a little over a dozen, not "dozens."

Still murdering 15 civilians, that's really bad. Evil, in fact.

I'll see your 15 and raise you 2,000:Sabra and Shatila massacre

Two wrongs don't make a right. But let's keep a sense of proportion about things.


This Apples to Oranges. One was a Crime against Humanity comitted deliberately and the other an unproven allegation of atrocities attributed to Israel yet actually and directly committed by the Lebanese Christian Militia.

And in case you forgot the facts about the Sabra & Shatila Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre

This points out that the "war crimes" allegations against Sharon were dismissed (unlike suicide bombers.)


On September 24, 2003, Belgium's highest court dismissed the war crimes complaints against Ariel Sharon, ruling there was no longer a legal basis for the lawsuit

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:19 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
---

Edit to add:

While we're on the subject of those damn discos it's also suicide-bomber-disco, suicide-bomber-disco. Ever time some hoo-haw talking head brings up suicide bombers it's always the same two things. Pizzerias and discos.

I seem to recall a suicide bomber got on a bus once, so you'd think the talking heads would mention that, too, but they must be going for the word-association game or something.

[ 10 June 2005: Message edited by: DrConway ][/qb][/QUOTE]

If it's so hilarious I suggest you stay out of Discos and Pizerias in Israel or tell the survivers of these crimes just how funny and sarcastic you think it is.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


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Peech
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posted 11 June 2005 01:23 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by N.Beltov:
Peach asserted that Hizb Allah was a terrorist organization and the Lebanese are incapable of governing themselves. Most of us have a pretty good idea what he was "getting at".

Actually no you don't know what I was "getting at". I meant Syria and Iran have been controlling Lebanon for some time now. Now for the1st time there is a possibility for Lebanon to return to Democracy.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 11 June 2005 01:46 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

Right, and this is what I have been saying.

I was simply trying to clarify terms so that everyone is clear in the discussion. War crimes, Crimes against humanity and genocide are different things. And you keep lumping them all together.

Now would you please stop jumping up and down on everyone, anytime people try and explain things in a perspectuve that does not seem immdediatly positive to Israel.


Cue:

refer to my post above and you will that legal experts have in fact lumped Crimes against Humanity and War Crimes into the same statute.
So you are incorrect.'
Secondly as to your allegations that I am "jumping up and down on everyone"...I think the record here shows that I am only trying to put forth other points of view to the "club". It's now very clear to me that this "forum" is not about debating but merely parroting whatever the politically correct chants of the day are without any real discussion of alternate POV. Furthermore as for jumping on people????? I can tell you that I for one am quite sick of certain individuals (such as RS) who think personal attacks on intelligence, allegations of fabrication and other belittling personal comments and sniping are what proper debating is. So have a good night or day wherever you are. And enjoy yourselves!


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 11 June 2005 03:52 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peech:
[QB]

This Apples to Oranges. One was a Crime against Humanity comitted deliberately and the other an unproven allegation of atrocities attributed to Israel yet actually and directly committed by the Lebanese Christian Militia.[/Q]

You call it an "unproven allegation," but of course it is nothing of the kind. Everyone admits what happened. Israelis bused the killers (whom they had armed and trained) to the camps, which were surrounded by Israeli soliders, who fired flares over the camp to provide illumination to the murderers, who knew the camps had already been evacuated under a truce between Israel and the PLO (which Israel broke when it occuppied West Beruit.)

The facts are not in question. Nor is Israel's cupability in the killings. The evidence of that was clear enough at the time to bring a quarter million Israelis into the streets to express their loathing. An Israeli court may dispute whether they were "directly" responsible or "indirectly" responsible, but reguardless of the semantics, it's murder by Israel of civilians, plain and simple.

"And in case you forgot the facts about the Sabra & Shatila Massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre"

In case I forgot the facts? You never knew the facts. The facts are as I've described. Impeach them if you can -- but that would probably be too much work for a bottom-feeder like you.

"This points out that the "war crimes" allegations against Sharon were dismissed (unlike suicide bombers.)"

Again, you have been shown, in words of one syllable, that suicide bombing is not necessarily a war crime, nor has in any court ever found that it is, by definition, a war crime. So it comes back to the same question about you: are you dishonest or just slow?

"On September 24, 2003, Belgium's highest court dismissed the war crimes complaints against Ariel Sharon, ruling there was no longer a legal basis for the lawsuit"

Of course, grown-ups know that a charge being dismissed by one court, in one juristication, does not establish whether or not the accused is guilty. In this case, the charge was dismissed because the murderers and their friends in high places brought pressure on Begium, which change its laws as a result:

"On 23 June 2003, as a result of strong international pressure, the Belgian Parliament modified the law known as “universal jurisdiction” which allowed prosecution in Belgium of war crimes, crimes against humanity and acts of genocide committed outside of Belgian territory. The parliament decided to add restrictions which had the notable effect of making it impossible to open up proceedings when there was no direct connection to Belgium.

Thereupon, the Cour de cassation affirmed the lack of jurisdiction of the Belgian judiciary in this affair with effect from 24 September 2003. The case is therefore closed in Belgium."

link

Translation: Sharon is still a murdering scumbag, but because of political pressure, the law was change to remove the case from the docket. I.E, THE FACTS OF THE CASE SUPPORTED THE CHARGE AND WERE NOT THE REASON FOR THE DISMISSAL.

For the nth time, your sources fail to support your claims.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 11 June 2005 04:06 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
[QB]
Furthermore as for jumping on people????? I can tell you that I for one am quite sick of certain individuals (such as RS) who think personal attacks on intelligence, allegations of fabrication and other belittling personal comments and sniping are what proper debating is. [QB]

This from Peech, who thinks that calling people "morons" and saying they "didn't finish elementary school" is a contribution to the debate.

Peech, you are a hypocrite. You should know that about yourself. You are also a bad writer, intellectually dishonest, slow, vain, hysterical, and screamingly racist. That's not a personal attack -- just a helping hand on your journey towards self-knowledge.

Now I am here to have a content-based discussion, which you seem far from being able to comprehend, let alone participate in. That is what I prefer. But you chose to make it about personalities, and now you are experiencing the consequences of changing the subject.

[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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posted 11 June 2005 04:22 AM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

So according to the definition of C A H suicide bombing (murder targeting civilians) is a CAH.

Suicide bombing is not necessarily either murder or targetting civilians, idiot.
Suicide bombing is setting off an explosive despite the fact that it will kill the person doing the detonating. Theoretically, you could do it to take down a fortification or a symbol of oppression, killing nobody at all.
The attack on the US marines in Lebanon was a suicide bombing. Those marines did not, however, magically morph into civilians as the explosives detonated.

How hard is this, really?


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
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Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

Suicide bombing is not necessarily either murder or targeting civilians, idiot.
Suicide bombing is setting off an explosive despite the fact that it will kill the person doing the detonating. Theoretically, you could do it to take down a fortification or a symbol of oppression, killing nobody at all.
The attack on the US marines in Lebanon was a suicide bombing. Those marines did not, however, magically morph into civilians as the explosives detonated.

How hard is this, really?


Read my post!!!
The killing of civilians intentionally by "suicide" or homicide bombers is murder and therefore a CAH according to the law which I quoted a cite for and which you obviously didn't read.Read before you shoot your fat ignorant mouth off! But apparently that's too hard for you.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 12:47 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

That's not a personal attack -- just a helping hand on your journey towards self-knowledge.
[ 11 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


I'd give you a helping hand alright........


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 12:52 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

"Translation: Sharon is still a murdering scumbag,"

That's really good RS. Any other sound "legal" arguments you care to raise from your wealth of "expertise".


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 12:58 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
He's that stupid.

Don't talk that way about yourself . We might lose "respect" for you!


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3807

posted 13 June 2005 01:12 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
This week I picked up some Ricard pastis on sale. It's an acquired taste, but I'm starting to get used to it. My guess is that it tastes similar to this:

Now this looks like a nice apéro.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 13 June 2005 02:42 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

I'd give you a helping hand alright........


You're funny. I'm not impressed by your random insults, so you are graduating to vauge threats.

Grow up, kid!


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
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Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2005 02:52 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
RS:

"Translation: Sharon is still a murdering scumbag,"

That's really good RS. Any other sound "legal" arguments you care to raise from your wealth of "expertise".


I am very very happy that you have offered me the opporunity to say that Sharon engaged in a "joint criminal entertprise" with the Christian Felange at Sabra and Shatila. If Milosevic can be tried at the Hague for being involved in a "joint criminal enterprise" with Serb commanders (not directly under his command) for Srebrenica, then Sharon can go there for Sabra and Shatila.

Simple.

or this:

quote:
"I couldn't believe my ears. As I went back over each step of the operation, I began to understand what must have happened. For years Israeli reprisal raids had never succeeded in doing more than blowing up a few outlying buildings, if that. Expecting the same, some Arab families must have stayed in their houses rather than running away. In those big stone houses... some could easily have hidden in the cellars and back rooms, keeping quiet when the paratroopers went in to check and yell out a warning. The result was this tragedy that had happened".

Qybia 1953

Of course this is another one of Sharon's sick jokes:

quote:
The UN observer who inspected the scene, Major General Vagn Bennike, chief of staff of the U.N. Truce Supervision Organization (which investigated the scene the next day) said: "one story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them".

He is a butcher and you should not defend him.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
al-Qa'bong
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posted 13 June 2005 11:27 AM      Profile for al-Qa'bong   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Yeah, the 800 lb gorilla standing beside the argument that Hezbollah is illegitimate because they are "terrorists."

Menachem Begin and Itzak Shamir were both once terrorists.

Ariel Sharon was a death squad commander.

Menachem Begin led the bone breakers (you can see footage of his work in action here - someone is being held down while a large rock is dropped on his elbow).


From: Saskatchistan | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
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Babbler # 7770

posted 13 June 2005 01:13 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by al-Qa'bong:

Menachem Begin led the bone breakers (you can see footage of his work in action here - someone is being held down while a large rock is dropped on his elbow).


It's a shame, if he'd been born a little later he could have worked for Rabin.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
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Babbler # 3308

posted 13 June 2005 05:43 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Read my post!!!
The killing of civilians intentionally by "suicide" or homicide bombers is murder and therefore a CAH according to the law

Who are you, Anne Coulter?
Let's break down the grammar here. You said,

quote:
So according to the definition of C A H suicide bombing (murder targeting civilians) is a CAH.

Now, when you say "noun phrase (noun phrase)", as in "suicide bombing (murder targeting civilians)", that means that the two are the same--the bit in the brackets is acting as an explanation or alternate phrasing of the meaning of the bit immediately before. So, you were saying, once again, although it had been more or less patiently explained to you repeatedly, that suicide bombing == murder targeting civilians. Whether you had figured it out for yourself or not, that's what your post meant.

Having read that, I pointed out chapter and verse both in concept and in specific historical example why that equation is wrong and the two are not, in fact, the same.

And you have the utter gall to completely ignore both what you yourself said and what I said and tell me to "read your post"? Read your own post! The meaning is clear, the grammatical denotation is precisely the one I drew from it. Further, that denotation repeats a claim you've made a number of times. Further still, that claim is empirically false and based on a complete confusion in both meaning and logic. I have demonstrated this confusion with irrefutable clarity, and you have the moronic effrontery to completely ignore all reason and tell me to "read your post"!

You seem stupid and foolish, but nobody who can type three words together is that stupid. Rather, you are so intellectually dishonest that you hope to avoid acknowledging the utter falsity of your stance by pretending to be dimmer than you are, and to avoid seeming to be defeated through repetitive aggression. Well, it's worked for the right often enough before. But I'll bandy no further words with a dishonest buffoon.


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 05:52 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

He is a butcher and you should not defend him.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]



You can "say" he is a murdering etc. but once again I advised you (and asked you to point to) any LEGAL precedent that CONVICTS him of such as pertaining to the Sabra and Shatila "massacre.". You can't because there is no legal proof of the fact that this was caused by Sharon. Sorry. Secondly you have (skillfully albeit) avoided my point above as does you're buddies El KaBongo and RS Ferret that suicide bombing or homicide bombing ARE Crimes against Humanity AND war crimes by LEGAL DEFINITION. So instead you have ofiscated by pointing to Qybia (which may come as a surprise to you) I agree was a massacre.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 05:58 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:

Now, when you say "noun phrase (noun phrase)", as in "suicide bombing (murder targeting civilians)", that means that the two are the same--the bit in the brackets is acting as an explanation or alternate phrasing of the meaning of the bit immediately before. So, you were saying, once again, although it had been more or less patiently explained to you repeatedly, that suicide bombing == murder targeting civilians. Whether you had figured it out for yourself or not, that's what your post meant.

Having read that, I pointed out chapter and verse both in concept and in specific historical example why that equation is wrong and the two are not, in fact, the same.

And you have the utter gall to completely ignore both what you yourself said and what I said and tell me to "read your post"? Read your own post! The meaning is clear, the grammatical denotation is precisely the one I drew from it. Further, that denotation repeats a claim you've made a number of times. Further still, that claim is empirically false and based on a complete confusion in both meaning and logic. I have demonstrated this confusion with irrefutable clarity, and you have the moronic effrontery to completely ignore all reason and tell me to "read your post"!

You seem stupid and foolish, but nobody who can type three words together is that stupid. Rather, you are so intellectually dishonest that you hope to avoid acknowledging the utter falsity of your stance by pretending to be dimmer than you are, and to avoid seeming to be defeated through repetitive aggression. Well, it's worked for the right often enough before. But I'll bandy no further words with a dishonest buffoon.


Rufus you are a piece of work. What can I say about someone who is deliberately ignorant like you? So once again...

I posted a cite for a LEGAL STATUTE that DEFINED Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes.
http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/C-45.9/41465.html#rid-41474
which you were too deliberately ignorant or hostile to read. So I will post it for others.

Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act

2000, c. 24

An Act respecting genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes and to implement the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, and to make consequential amendments to other Acts

"crime against humanity" « crime contre l'humanité »

"crime against humanity" means murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, persecution or any other inhumane act or omission that is committed against any civilian population or any identifiable group and that, at the time and in the place of its commission, constitutes a crime against humanity according to customary international law or conventional international law or by virtue of its being criminal according to the general principles of law recognized by the community of nations, whether or not it constitutes a contravention of the law in force at the time and in the place of its commission.

So the plain reading means murder of or targeted against CIVILIANS = CAH.

If you can't get that then don't think of applying to law school and continue to bury your head in the sand and hurl abuse instead of logic. (Isn't it interesting hom the most abusive posters on this forum like Ferret and now you hide behind a bullshit moral platitude like "intellectual dishonesty"???)

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Rufus Polson
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 3308

posted 13 June 2005 07:59 PM      Profile for Rufus Polson     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Are you, or are you not, saying that the act of using a delivery method for a bomb which involves committing suicide, is equivalent to/is always the result of targetting civilians with that bomb?

Incidentally, the word "suicide" does not appear on the page you link. Therefore they clearly don't define suicide bombing as anything, much less as a crime against humanity.

. . . D'oh! I'm bandying more words.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


From: Caithnard College | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 13 June 2005 08:03 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:


You can "say" he is a murdering etc. but once again I advised you (and asked you to point to) any LEGAL precedent that CONVICTS him of such as pertaining to the Sabra and Shatila "massacre.". You can't because there is no legal proof of the fact that this was caused by Sharon. Sorry. Secondly you have (skillfully albeit) avoided my point above as does you're buddies El KaBongo and RS Ferret that suicide bombing or homicide bombing ARE Crimes against Humanity AND war crimes by LEGAL DEFINITION. So instead you have ofiscated by pointing to Qybia (which may come as a surprise to you) I agree was a massacre.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]



Uhh Nuremberg?

The point I am making is that there is a precedent right now be enacted in the Hague where a leader is being charges in connection with a massacre as part of a "joint legal entertprise," with forces not directly under his command, and that is the trial of Slobodan Milosevic. By that precedent there is no reason that Sharon should not face a legal procedure at the Hague in regards to Sabra and Shatila.

The Kahane commision may have been an ivestigation, but it was not a legal proceeding it was a parlimentary commission


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 13 June 2005 08:10 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus Polson:
Are you, or are you not, saying that the act of using a delivery method for a bomb which involves committing suicide, is equivalent to/is always the result of targetting civilians with that bomb?

Incidentally, the word "suicide" does not appear on the page you link. Therefore they clearly don't define suicide bombing as anything, much less as a crime against humanity.

. . . D'oh! I'm bandying more words.

[ 13 June 2005: Message edited by: Rufus Polson ]


Oh my (can you hear the sound of my hand slapping my head. Forget about "suicide" bombing.OK!!!!!!!!!???
If someone targets and deliberately kills (by way of bombing, suicide or not or poisoned freaking koolaide for god's sake!!) then it's the deliberate act of targeting and killing civilians that the statute defines!!!!It's the deliberate (premeditated) act
of INTENTIONALLY KILLING civilians. Capiche?


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 13 June 2005 08:12 PM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Oh wow, how did this thread get so long?
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

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