babble home
rabble.ca - news for the rest of us
today's active topics

Topic Closed  Topic Closed


  
FAQ | Forum Home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» babble   » archived babble   » the middle east and central asia   » Abbas to Sharon: Set My People Free

Email this thread to someone!    
Author Topic: Abbas to Sharon: Set My People Free
Coyote
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4881

posted 02 June 2005 02:48 PM      Profile for Coyote   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Open letter:
quote:
For the next few months, world attention will focus on Israel's planned
unilateral withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. The Palestinians have no
illusions about this action: It is not a gesture of peace; rather it diverts
attention away from Israel's settlement expansion of the West Bank. While
much is being made of Israel's withdrawal of 7,300 settlers from Gaza, homes
for another 30,000 Jewish settlers are being built in the West Bank.
Moreover, even after Israel withdraws its settlers from Gaza it wants to
continue to control Gaza's borders, airspace and seacoast. No one will be
able to enter or leave without Israel's approval, and the Israeli army has
made clear its intention to operate at will within Gaza. The 1.3 million
Palestinians in Gaza who have lived under an oppressive occupation will
hardly be made free by Israel's evacuation. Palestinians fear that the Gaza
Strip will become a large prison.

quote:
Time is the greatest enemy of peace in the Middle East. And the time for
interim agreements and partial accords is over. It is no longer enough to
simply manage the conflict while Israel unilaterally acts. For the sake of
peace and democracy, it is time to end the conflict. Israelis and
Palestinians now have an opportunity to do just that -- to bring a permanent
end to our tragic conflict. I am ready immediately to sit down with Ariel
Sharon and start permanent peace negotiations. When I meet with President
Bush today, I will ask him to fulfill his vision of two sovereign, viable,
democratic states, living side-by-side in peace and security. If he is still
convinced and committed to his original vision, as I hope he will be, and if
Prime Minister Sharon is pressed to abandon a unilateral solution, we can
together make 2005 the year of peace in the Middle East.


From: O’ for a good life, we just might have to weaken. | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
WingNut
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 1292

posted 02 June 2005 03:01 PM      Profile for WingNut   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Every day, Israel is undertaking steps that undermine President Bush's vision and effectively preclude a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Israel's ongoing settlement construction in the West Bank, its insidious Wall which, since not built on the 1967 border, is suffocating Palestinian cities and towns, and its illegal attempts to cut off East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank will, if allowed to continue, render a two-state solution to our conflict an impossibility.

From: Out There | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 12:29 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Coyote:
Open letter:

got your source sorry.

OK Mr. Abbas...as I recall this credible leader wrote a thesis on how 6 million didn't die and how the Halocaust was a Jewish hoax to justify "stealing" Palestinian land. Right. Then he denied but never apologized for his racist hateful beliefs. So why should we take him as sincere?

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by WingNut:
[QB][/QB]

You too. State your source, please


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 June 2005 12:30 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Click on the link. It's that easy.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 12:33 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
Click on the link. It's that easy.

Got it thanks.

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 June 2005 12:34 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
al-Q quoted from the same source. He was highlighting another passage from the same page.
From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 12:37 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Michelle:
al-Q quoted from the same source. He was highlighting another passage from the same page.

Thanks got that too. (now) (duh?)


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 04 June 2005 12:39 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post

From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Left Turn
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 8662

posted 04 June 2005 02:17 AM      Profile for Left Turn     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Mahmoud Abbas needs to realize that George Bush has never had a plan for a viable Palestinian state. What George Bush and Ariel Sharon have had plans for are three bantuized Palestinian enclaves making up only 22% of the West Bank. That plus the Gaza Strip, which is already the world's largest prison.
From: Burnaby, BC | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 04 June 2005 02:21 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
I think the evidence confirms that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Yet I find it interesting, Peech, that questioning this number is defined as "hateful," while questioning the equally-well-established fact of 700,000 Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Israel is not. Indeed, you implied that using the historical figure was "hateful" since it was clearly "exaggerated" (which is pretty much what Abbas is accused of arguing).

So it seems that it is hateful to question the historical record, and also hateful to believe the historical record, depending solely on whether the history in question is supportive of your ideological presumptions.

Do you see why hypocritical statements like these make it hard to take you seriously?

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 June 2005 05:13 AM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
What do you espect from someone who only uses Israeli government sources to inform their world view?
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 02:08 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
I think the evidence confirms that 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Yet I find it interesting, Peech, that questioning this number is defined as "hateful," while questioning the equally-well-established fact of 700,000 Palestinians ethnically cleansed by Israel is not. Indeed, you implied that using the historical figure was "hateful" since it was clearly "exaggerated" (which is pretty much what Abbas is accused of arguing).

So it seems that it is hateful to question the historical record, and also hateful to believe the historical record, depending solely on whether the history in question is supportive of your ideological presumptions.

Do you see why hypocritical statements like these make it hard to take you seriously?

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]



Don't care how you take me. It's clear you are locked into your idialogy. Secondly it's perverse and historically incorrect to compare the plight of the Palestinians to the mass, organized, documented and efficient extermination of an entire group of people. If you truly believe there is a comparison then no one can take your point of view seriously.

http://www.jewishtribune.ca/tribune/jt-050203-02.html

http://www.syracuse.com/forums/newswatch/index.ssf?artid=58667

http://hnn.us/articles/1414.html

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 02:10 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
What do you expect from someone who only uses Israeli government sources to inform their world view?

I don't expect you to read anything but what is politically correct. Do you deny that Abbas held (holds) this point of view or are you just trying to to be oblique in order to discredit ?

See my links above.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 June 2005 03:42 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
First of all Memri is not a credible source. I have been to their web page, and no one seems willing to take personal repsonsibility for its content. There is not list of donors, sponsors or staff -- it is almost as if they don't want people to know whom is running it. It is operated out of a P.O. Box in Washington, and no one there sees fit to put there names to any of the translations.

Frankly, I am perfectly willing to believe that Abbu Mazen wrote something in that vein, as that kind of thing is part of the popular mythology of the Arab world, just as is the idea that 700,000 Palestinians "voluntarilly" up and left their homes in 1948 is part of the popular mythology of Zionists.

It is historical denial.

A non-zionist source for the quote would be nice.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 03:49 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
First of all Memri is not a credible source. I have been to there web page, and no one seems willing to take personal responsibility for its content. There is not list of donors, sponsors or staff -- it is almost as if they don't want people to know whom is running it. It is operated out of a P.O. Box in Washington, and no one there sees fit to put there names to any of the translations.

Frankly, I am perfectly willing to believe that Abbu Mazen wrote something in that vein, that kinf of thing is part of the popular mythology of the Arab world, just as is the idea that 700,000 Palestinians "voluntarilly" up and left there homes in 1948 among Zionists.

It is historical denial.

A non-zionist source for the quote would be nice.


OK thanks Cue. I thought it was common knowledge of his views but I will look for other sources (in my spare time). I apologize for my previous (tone) in some of my replies to you. I am quite frankly despondent about the prospects of peace (even with Abbas) given the history of mutual hatred and violence.Cheers


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 04 June 2005 03:53 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
However, the idea that Zionists actively co-operated with Nazis is not new, and does not exclude Jewish critics of Israel, Torah True Jews assert the following for instance:

quote:
It is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily.

The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber.


I have not seen enough of the historical documentation used to support this, but the idea has surfaced repeatedly.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 04:05 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
However, the idea that Zionists actively co-operated with Nazis is not new, and does not exclude Jewish critics of Israel, Torah True Jews assert the following for instance:

I have not seen enough of the historical documentation used to support this, but the idea has surfaced repeatedly.


This is a libel. and definately a "Historical fact". So until you can point to a real source (and not 3rd party hearsay) I dispute this.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 04:08 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue :

Regarding my statements on Abbas' anti-semitism and Holocaust denying here's some reading for you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Abbas

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0403/0403nazipal.htm

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=ia&ID=IA9502

From Abbas himself:

“It seems that the Zionist movement's stake in inflating the number of murdered in the war was aimed at [ensuring] great gains. This led it to confirm the number [6 million], to establish it in world opinion, and by doing so to arouse more pangs of conscience and sympathy for Zionism in general. Many scholars have debated the question of the 6 million figure, and reached perplexing conclusions, according to which the Jewish victims total hundreds of thousands. The well-known Canadian author Roger Delarom[3] said on this matter: 'To date, no proof whatsoever exists that the number of Jewish victims in the Nazi concentration camps reached four million or six million. Zionism first spoke of 12 million exterminated in these camps, but then the number decreased greatly, to half, that is, only six million. Then the number decreased further, and became four million, as the Germans could not have killed or exterminated more Jews than there were in the world at that time. In effect, the true number is much smaller than these fictitious millions.”

Holocaust denial as part of Palestinian culture:

Hassan al-Agha, a professor at the Islamic University in Gaza City, declared on PA television in 1997:
"The Jews view it [the Holocaust] as a profitable activity so they inflate the number of victims all the time. In another ten years, I do not know what number they will reach... As you know, when it comes to economics and investments, the Jews have been very experienced ever since the days of The Merchant of Venice."


http://www.ajc.org/InTheMedia/Publications.asp?did=503&pid=1203


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 04 June 2005 08:23 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
However, the idea that Zionists actively co-operated with Nazis is not new, and does not exclude Jewish critics of Israel, Torah True Jews assert the following for instance:

I have not seen enough of the historical documentation used to support this, but the idea has surfaced repeatedly.


There were definitely relationships between the Zionist movement and the Nazi regime. Whether one defines it as collaboration or not is probably mostly a matter of your point of view.

There have been many books on the subject, the most recent being "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis." I haven't read the book, but the author cites some grudgingly respectful reviews from mainstream papers:

In 1983, Croom Helm Ltd. published my 1st book, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. American writers don't expect favorable reviews from the London Times, but editorialist Edward Mortimer declared that "Brenner is able to cite numerous cases where Zionists collaborated with anti-Semitic regimes, including Hitler's."

Still less could a Trotskyist dream of a review from Izvestia, the Soviet government gazette, but they hailed it. "During the world war, Brenner points out, Zionism showed its real meaning: for the sake of its ambitions, it sacrificed the blood of millions of Jews."

Louis Rapoport, a failed Berkeley radical, denounced the book in the Jerusalem Post as "leftist babble." Nevertheless, he conceded, there were "very real charges that will continue to haunt" Zionism "until they are dealt with honestly."

A review of "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis"full article

Brenner's earlier book, "Zionism in the Age of Dictators" is on the web.

I prefer not to editorialize too much on the matter, for two reasons:

a) This was a complicated relationship, with different people pulling the Zionist movement in different directions, over a long period of time, only at the very end of which was Hitler's commitment to the Final Solution clear.

b) A lot of what Zionists wrote and said and did in defense of or in collaboration with the Zionists is just too incredible to believe second-hand. Interested parties are referred to the documentary evidence, and can draw their own conclusions.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 04 June 2005 09:01 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rsfarrell:
[QB]

There were definitely relationships between the Zionist movement and the Nazi regime. Whether one defines it as collaboration or not is probably mostly a matter of your point of view.

There have been many books on the subject, the most recent being "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis." I haven't read the book, but the author cites some grudgingly respectful reviews from mainstream papers:

anti-Semitic regimes, including Hitler's."


Isn't this just all to convenient to coincide with your perversion of History. I read your "sources" which are very dubious to say the least. Quite frankly I think it's a smoke screen to cover the well-known and well-documented collaboration of the Palestinians with the Nazis. After all they had a common cause (and still do) the extermination of the Jews. Your thesis is feces.

[B][/B]

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 04 June 2005 10:47 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
[QB][QUOTE]Originally posted by rsfarrell:
[QB]

There were definitely relationships between the Zionist movement and the Nazi regime. Whether one defines it as collaboration or not is probably mostly a matter of your point of view.

There have been many books on the subject, the most recent being "51 Documents: Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis." I haven't read the book, but the author cites some grudgingly respectful reviews from mainstream papers:

anti-Semitic regimes, including Hitler's."


Isn't this just all to convenient to coincide with your perversion of History.


Since I didn't draw any conclusions, it's hard to see how. No capitialization needed, BTW.

quote:
I read your "sources" which are very dubious to say the least.

Really? You read "51 documents," "Zionism in the Age of Dictators," the London Times Review, Ivestia, and the Jerusalem Post, all in an hour or so? When you're too lazy to even read the threads you're writing in? I find that claim "very dubious, to say the least."

quote:
Quite frankly I think it's a smoke screen to cover the well-known and well-documented collaboration of the Palestinians with the Nazis.

Source please. The Mufti of Jerusalem, after the British kicked him out for his role in the 1936-39 uprising, made common cause with Hitler. "The Palestinians" did no such thing.

quote:
After all they had a common cause (and still do) the extermination of the Jews.

On the contrary; the Zionists and the Nazis had a common cause; a Europe without Jews.

Palestinians (especially in 1940) could care less about whether Jews were exterminated -- they just didn't (and don't) want to be ruled by them.

quote:
Your thesis is feces.

I would say you are confused about my thesis. Perhaps the position of your head when you are composing these screeds is to blame?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 05 June 2005 05:04 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

Your "links" to the actual 51 "documents" are 3 sets of propaganda and diatribes written by ani-zionists.
Since you are such a history mavin point out the REAL SOURCES!!

BTW for a link to Palenian ant-semitism in the media see: http://www.pmw.org.il/


Ever considered a career in stand up comedy?

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 June 2005 05:18 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
"the media," to Peech, equals an organization called Palestinian Media Watch, led by this utterly objective authority:

quote:
Itamar Marcus is director of PMW.

Mr. Marcus was also the Director of Research for the Center for Monitoring the Impact of Peace from 1998 - 2000, writing studies on Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian school textbooks.

Mr. Marcus was a member of the Israeli delegation to the “Tri-lateral [American, Israeli and Palestinian] Committee to Monitor Incitement” established under the Wye Accords.

PMW prepared the material for the Israeli delegation that was submitted at these negotiations



From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 05 June 2005 05:23 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
"the media," to Peech, equals an organization called Palestinian Media Watch, led by this utterly objective authority:



Oh my my so the contents aren't valid even though the video clips, and newspaper quotes are authentic...because YOU don't like the source (ie Israeli)?
Why not take your head out of the sand a look at the contents? I guess you wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of your opinion?

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
skdadl
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 478

posted 05 June 2005 05:24 PM      Profile for skdadl     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Hey, Peech: You were "impeeching" the objectivity of other people's sources, so I thought, y'know, fair's fair.

Have a nice night.


From: gone | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 05 June 2005 05:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by skdadl:
Hey, Peech: You were "impeeching" the objectivity of other people's sources, so I thought, y'know, fair's fair.

Have a nice night.


OK I get it. Touche!
Impeach the Peech!
You too have a GREAT night!
(it's day here)


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 05 June 2005 09:57 PM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
RS:

Your "links" to the actual 51 "documents" are 3 sets of propaganda and diatribes written by ani-zionists.
Since you are such a history mavin point out the REAL SOURCES!!

BTW for a link to Palenian ant-semitism in the media see: http://www.pmw.org.il/

Ever considered a career in stand up comedy?

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


The links were exactly what they said they were, two reviews and an older book . . . you don't find link to book the author's are actively seeking to sell . . . something about copyright . . . no one cares what a person of your limited integrity thinks are "propaganda and diatribes."


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 05 June 2005 10:11 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

There were definitely relationships between the Zionist movement and the Nazi regime. Whether one defines it as collaboration or not is probably mostly a matter of your point of view.
I prefer not to editorialize too much on the matter, for two reasons:

a) This was a complicated relationship, with different people pulling the Zionist movement in different directions, over a long period of time, only at the very end of which was Hitler's commitment to the Final Solution clear.

b) A lot of what Zionists wrote and said and did in defense of or in collaboration with the Zionists is just too incredible to believe second-hand. Interested parties are referred to the documentary evidence, and can draw their own conclusions.

[ 04 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]



I think this is the correct approach, the question isn't really so much were Zionists as a whole complicit in the Holocaust, but which cliques within the Zionist movement, gave themselves to much credit by believing they were players in the war. Some organization such as the Stern Gang, whom are generally also regarded as the main perpetrators of the massacre at Deir Yassin, actually believed that Hitler would be interested in an official alliance. This document surface regarding communications between the Stern Gang and the German embassy in Anakara.

It would seem that the Grand Mufti of Jersualem was not alone in thinking support for the German's might affect British withdrawal from Egypt, Jordan and Palestine. Even the late Anwar Sadat, when he was friends with Nasser in the early years of the Egyptian independece movement was part of the clique of Egyptian army officers who saw the potential for national liberation as a potential of a German victory in North Africa.

[ 05 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:28 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
On more careful analysis of the "51 papers" it's more accurate that A. Stern approached the Nazis at the early part of their reign and tried to negotiate the release of Jews so they could populate Israel. To somehow change this into "collaboration" is revisisionism.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 07:34 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Well, I'm glad that's all cleared up. Thanks for the link to the original source document.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:35 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Colloboration requires active agreement and acting in concert. "As a pejorative term, the word "collaboration' can describe the treason In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who reneges on an oath of loyalty or a pledge of allegiance, and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor."
In fact the intent of stern was to save his people and the Nazis never agreed.In 1940 and 1941, Lehi proposed intervening in the Second World War on the side of Nazi Germany to attain their help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine and to offer their assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe arguing that "common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO (Lehi)." Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.without success

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:38 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
Well, I'm glad that's all cleared up. Thanks for the link to the original source document.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Gang

http://encyclopedia.tfd.com/collaboration


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 07:47 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I guess you didn't bother to look through the documentation that I provided as th Wykpedia entry is exacly the one that I sourced in my post. It said this:

quote:
Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig and delivered a letter from Lehi offering to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich". Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

It is hard to take you seriously, when you not only don't read my sources, but also fail to read your own.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:49 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
A treaty or collaboration REQUIRES CONSENT
Read your own post damn it!!! It was a desperate offer butwithout accpetance. Maybe you should attend 1st year law school or invest in a dictionary.

Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 07:50 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Anyway, the point of this is that there is a certain amount of evidence and sources that indicate Zionist manipulations around the Holocaust. As you say "tried to negotiate the release of Jews so they could populate Israel." Even many Jews accept these authorities to some extent or other.

Even if you dispute them, and even if you are right this fact sheds some light on how an Mamoud Abbas, a complete alien to European coverage of the Holocaust, might come to similar conclusion based on simillar sources.

It is interesting, no, that no one at the Jerusalem Post or Ha'aretz has followed up on this allegation about Abbas's beliefs. Or has it been researched and discredited?

I mean you are saying that Areil Sharon knowingly shook hands with dyed in the wool Holocaust denier. In public -- On TV -- In front of the entire diaspora. Not only that he backed him as the best candidate for the PA presidency?

Very strange indeed, don't you think?

Here we have the PM of Israel shaking hands and making deals with a Holocaust denier, but for some reason you seem to doubt that there might have been a little behind the scene collaboration between Lehi and Stern and the NSDAP.

You seem a little inconsitent on these points. Perhaps you could explain.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 07:51 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
A treaty or collaboration REQUIRES CONSENT
Read your own post damn it!!! It was a desperate offer butwithout accpetance. Maybe you should attend 1st year law school or invest in a dictionary.

Von Hentig forwarded the letter to the German embassy in Ankara, but there is no record of any official response. Lehi tried to establish contact with the Germans again in December 1941, also apparently without success.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


The point is that the contact was instigated by a Zinoist clique not by the German diplomatic corp, apparently, and the point was to enter into a "treaty with the German Reich."

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:52 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
"the point of this is that there is a certain amount of evidence and sources that indicate Zionist manipulations around the Holocaust."

Uh oh here we go..........manipulations around the Holocaust.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 07:54 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
initiationof contact does not equal to a deal. Again it was a desperate situation (look at eh dates) and the Nazis NEVER AGREED to anything. So it's irrelvent.
From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 07:58 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
initiationof contact does not equal to a deal. Again it was a desperate situation (look at eh dates) and the Nazis NEVER AGREED to anything. So it's irrelvent.

So you are saying prominent Zionists wanted to cooperate with the NSDAP but were rebuffed. How nice. These nice people who wanted to help Hitler make Europe Judenrein, they are the ones most commonly accused of being behind Deir Yassin.

Based on our undestanding of their character as open supporters of the Third Reich, do you think it is likely or unlikely that they perepetrated the massacre?


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 08:07 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:

So you are saying prominent Zionists wanted to cooperate with the NSDAP but were rebuffed. How nice. These nice people who wanted to help Hitler make Europe Judenrein, they are the ones most commonly accused of being behind Deir Yassin.

Based on our undestanding of their character as open supporters of the Third Reich, do you think it is likely or unlikely that they perepetrated the massacre?


Cue lay off the cafine it's affecting your logic. As I said in prior postings ...they were desperate and they wanted to get Jews out. (is tha tcooperation with Nazis??) Knowledge of the camps or exterminations were non existent (given the dates). To make the leap in "logic " you have made is insanity so I wont dignify it with a response. Read my lips THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT. There was an attempt to save lives. How you can leap to an agreement or collobartion with Nazis is insanity.


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 08:08 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
So here are the allies, in 41, backs against the wall fighting the German Riech. El Alemein is on the brink. Cairo is next! Manstein's forward observers have the Kremlin in sight.

Does Stalin say surrender? No.

Does Chruchill? No.

But these loyal sons of democracy and liberty say "We'll help you take Cairo, and give you access to all tha middle eastern oil, (and strangle Britain at the same time) so that you can turn your full weight against Russia, and then crush the allies in detail -- for Israel and our refugees."

"Surely once the Middle East falls Turkey will at least give military access to the triumphant Wermacht, so that it can flank Russia in the Caucuses in 42 -- what other choice does Turkey have? Rommels orders will not be "Counter attack at Kasserine Pass" but "North along the Volga and to Stalingrad."

Its 41 and Lehi and Stern know that millions of Russians have already died, and the British civilians in London are being mercilessly bombed by the Luftwaffe, (can they have missed the brutal occupation of Yugoslavia, Greece, Norway?) and these loyal friends of justice offer let Hitler win the war, even though you say "knowledge of the camps or exterminations were non existent."

In there minds it really isn't much more than an bad refugee problem, and short rations and other hardships -- tough condition but not insurmountable.

So all of this NSDAP burtality against others (the U-boat campaign -- Canadian sailors hoping they drown before they burn in oil slicks iof the shores of Greenland) is ok, but Lehi and Stern don't give a shit about that, let't cut a deal with Hitler.

And you bother to write one word in defence of these traitorous and stupid men? You are your own worst advocate.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 08:43 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
I have never been more ashamed to be Jewish, as I do now, after hearing your sick platitudes.
From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 08:47 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
I have never been more ashamed to be Jewish, as I do now, after hearing your sick platitudes.

You ar right I am ashamed of you.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/qar54.html


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 08:52 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
You have already admitted that Stern and Lehi tried to make a pact with Hitler, and help him win the war, and you think it is defensible on the grounds that the Germans rebuffed them?

That's like saying I tried to shoot you but the gun jammed.


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 08:58 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You have already admitted that Stern and Lehi tried to make a pact with Hitler, and help him win the war, and you think it is defensible on the grounds that the Germans rebuffed them?

That's like saying I tried to shoot you but the gun jammed.



You have twisted what I said read my fucking posts!


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 09:02 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
They offered a deal: support for complete defeat of the British in Middle East for Jewish immigration to Israel. What could be more plain: "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".

The Germans didn't reply.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 09:08 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
They offered a deal: support for complete defeat of the British in Middle East for Jewish immigration to Israel. What could be more plain: "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".

The Germans didn't reply.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball

Complete defeat of the British on Palestine who were their enemies. Not in the context of the world. I beleive

I can't reply any more now my dog just got skunked.

]



From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Cueball
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 4790

posted 06 June 2005 09:20 PM      Profile for Cueball   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
The Middle East was the keystone of the British War effort. That is why they threw everything into El Alemain -- it wasn't just about pride you know.

The Suez Canal was the essential conduit through which the entire British suppy system ran, oil, clothes, tea, etc. etc. Not only that without the oil from the Middle East it is very likely that both the US and British military machines might have collapsed. These were the three sailent aspects of the German North Africa Strategy:

  • 1) Knock out British supply and especially the oil for its fleets, and aircraft.
  • 2) Attain the oil itself.
  • 3) Open up a possible second route of attack in Russia through the Caucuses.

As I said before:

quote:
But these loyal sons of democracy and liberty say "We'll help you take Cairo, and give you access to all tha middle eastern oil, (and strangle Britain at the same time) so that you can turn your full weight against Russia, and then crush the allies in detail -- for Israel and our refugees."

"Surely once the Middle East falls Turkey will at least give military access to the triumphant Wermacht, so that it can flank Russia in the Caucuses in 42 -- what other choice does Turkey have? Rommel's orders will not be "Counter attack at Kasserine Pass" but "North along the Volga and to Stalingrad."


The Lehi and Stern plan to create a facist sub-state in the Middle East, could easily have won the war for Hitler, if succesful.

Vain and stupid men. You should not defend them.

PS: Sorry about your dog.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Cueball ]


From: Out from under the bridge and out for a stroll | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 06 June 2005 09:25 PM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Cue:

Ok I have your point. Let me do some reading because I just can't believe their objective was to set up a fascist state but rather that they were idealists (naive ones). But I will look further. Meanwhile off to de skunk the dog and house.....yuck!

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 12:40 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
On more careful analysis of the "51 papers" it's more accurate that A. Stern approached the Nazis at the early part of their reign and tried to negotiate the release of Jews so they could populate Israel. To somehow change this into "collaboration" is revisisionism.

[ 06 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Two things: first, have you read these documents? You imply you have, but I find it hard to believe.

The review states that:

Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious “Stern Gang,” late in 1940, made a written proposal to Hitler, by which the Jewish militias in Palestine, would fight on “Germany’s side,” in the war against England, in exchange for the Nazis help in resolving the “Jewish Question” in Europe, and their assistance in creating an “historic Jewish state.” By this date, German troops had already marched into Prague, invaded Poland, and had built the first concentration camp at Auschwitz. The deranged Stern had further bragged about how the Zionist organizations were “closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in [their] ideology and structure.” Stern’s obscene proposal was found in the German embassy, in Turkey, after WWII.

This collaboration:

* Was not "at an early stage" but followed the invasion of Poland and was five years after the Nurenberg laws.

* Was not limited to negoitiating immigration but offered armed support to Germany.

If you have sources that say otherwise, please cite them.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 12:44 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS (should BS) obviously YOU read nothing other than a BOOK REVIEW (which is NOT the papers...YFM)which BTW says:

"Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious “Stern Gang,” late in 1940,...."

Now I guess you didn't finish grade school but THE WAR ended in 1945 (late) so 1940 by everyone else in this planet is EARLY in the war.
Smarten up!!!!!

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 12:45 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Cueball:
You have already admitted that Stern and Lehi tried to make a pact with Hitler, and help him win the war, and you think it is defensible on the grounds that the Germans rebuffed them?

That's like saying I tried to shoot you but the gun jammed.


Well said.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 12:50 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS: I don't know why I bother with you but maybe you can't speak english:

http://www.tfd.com/collaboration

1. collaboration - act of working jointly

It takes TWO to colloborate Capiche???????

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 12:52 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
RS (should BS) obviously YOU read nothing other than a BOOK REVIEW (which is NOT the papers...YFM)which BTW says:

"Incredibly, Avraham Stern, the leader of the notorious “Stern Gang,” late in 1940,...."

Now I guess you didn't finish grade school but THE WAR ended in 1945 (late) so 1940 by everyone else in this planet is EARLY in the war.
Smarten up!!!!!


and read it.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


You didn't answer my question. I have never claimed I read the book. I don't own it and it isn't online. You claimed you did. I'm going to go out on a limb and call you a liar.

As for whether it was "early," it was late enough it know who Hitler was and what he stood for. Other posters have pointed out that Zionist efforts continued into 1941 and 1942, so the whole "it was early in the war" argument is weak, to say the least.

You lie about what you've read, you misrepresent what other people have posted, and you top it off by being whiny and abusive. Grow up.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 12:58 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rsfarrell:
[QB]

You didn't answer my question. I have never claimed I read the book. I don't own it and it isn't online. You claimed you did. I'm going to go out on a limb and call you a liar.

I'm going to climb out on a limb and call a spade You are an ignorant moron. I never said I read the BOOK. I said I read the article you referred to you.
What is your point if a book about articles that we don't even know exist hasn't even been read by you is true....then what is your point???? .

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 12:59 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
RS: I don't know why I bother with you but maybe you can't speak english:

http://www.tfd.com/collaboration

1. collaboration - act of working jointly

It takes TWO to colloborate Capiche???????

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Reminds me of the people who say they aren't "anti-Semites" because Arabs are Semites. It's verbal hairsplitting and, BTW, it isn't true; the nazis may not have been able to stomach Stern but did have relationships with other Zionists:


>From Tom Segev "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust"

"Ironically the Revisionists also had fairly wide-ranging links with the
Nazis. The Betar youth movement was active in Berlin and several other
German cities. About half a year before the Nazis came to power, the
movement's leadership distributed a memorandum to its members that was
both commonsensical and cautious. The Nazis should be treated politely
and with reserve, the memorandum instructed. Whenever Betar members were
in public, they should remain quiet and refrain from vocal debates and
critical comments. Under no circumstances should anyone say anything
that could be interpreted as an insult to the German people, to its
institutions, or to its prevailing ideology.

The Nazis allowed Betar to continue its activities--meetings,
conventions, summer camps hikes, sports, sailing, and agricultural
training. Members were allowed to wear their uniforms, which included
brown shirts, and they were allowed to publish mimeographed pamphlets,
including Zionist articles in a nationalistic, para-Fascist tone, in the
spirit of the times. The German Betar pamphlets focused on events in
Palestine, and their exuberant nationalism targeted the British, the
Arabs, and the Zionist left. The contained no references to the
political situation in Germany. With this exception, they were similar
to the nationalist German youth publications, including those published
by the Nazis. Jabotinsky decried the influence Hitlerism was having on
the members of Betar." (pp. 32)


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:01 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
BS:

Let's take aleap...evenif your sources are corect what is yourlogical point then.....or conclusion??


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:02 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rsfarrell:
[QB]

You didn't answer my question. I have never claimed I read the book. I don't own it and it isn't online. You claimed you did. I'm going to go out on a limb and call you a liar.

I'm going to climb out on a limb and call a spade You are an ignorant moron. I never said I read the BOOK. I said I read the article you referred to you.
What is your point if a book about articles that we don't even know exist hasn't even been read by you is true....then what is your fucking point???? .

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Help me out, folks, I haven't been here long: Is this within the guidelines we are supposed to be abiding by?


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:06 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

Help me out, folks, I haven't been here long: Is this within the guidelines we are supposed to be abiding by?


Absolutely is OK to call a fellow poster a liar
and to be abusive???

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:10 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
Earlier post:
"On more careful analysis of the "51 papers""

And now:
"I never said I read the BOOK."

Looks like you lied.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:13 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
Here we go again. I said (meant the article) about the 51 papers which you know is only an article and thereforre you KNEW I was referring to the review. So Rather than go around how about answering my question or get off the forum That is:
"EVEN IF your allegation s about the 51 parers etc are true then what is your POINT or CONCLUSION?????

From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:17 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
"or get off the forum"

So now, in addition to lying, spewing profanity, and personal abuse, you are now issuing threats. You are a piece of work. I don't expect you will be here much longer.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:18 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
Here we go again. I said (meant the article) about the 51 papers which you know is only an article and thereforre you KNEW I was referring to the review.
"EVEN IF your allegation s about the 51 parers etc are true then what is your POINT or CONCLUSION?????


So your not going to reveal your cards will you??? Other than being abusive.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:19 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:22 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


Thought the better of it, did you? I hope we see more such self-control in the future.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:24 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:

Thought the better of it, did you? I hope we see more such self-control in the future.


Likewise RS! Now if you wish to continue can you answer the question even if and I say IF the allegations are true what is the point or conclusion you are trying to make?

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:30 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:

Likewise RS! Now if you wish to continue can you answer the question even if and I say IF the allegations are true what is the point or conclusion you are trying to make?

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


1. As I've already said, I have no conclusions as to whether Zionists can be said to have collaborated or not, or what the meaning of such a collaboration would be.

2. Your counterarguments against the idea of the collaboration are flawed, as I've outlined.

3. The manner in which you have conducted yourself in the course of the discussion is shameful on several levels.

There you have it.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: rsfarrell ]


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 01:32 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
RS:

I would agree "the manner in which YOU have conducted yourself in the course of the discussion is shameful." And I take it you just persisted in your allegations to.....raise muck then?

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 01:59 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by Peech:
RS:

I am asking once again WHAT is your point....assuming that the so-called collaboration is true then what is your point?????? Were you just raising an unfounded allegation to throw mud to see if it sticks? And please no more of your personal abuse!

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


1. Read the thread, Peech. I didn't bring it up.

2. Your dishonesty, hysteria, abuse and profanity are all over the board for all to see. I don't think you're fooling anyone when you try to cast blame elsewhere for your own faults.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 02:02 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
YOU called me a liar which you knew to be incorrect.

THIS is dishonest, & abusive and is on the record.

Nice try.

Good night.

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
rsfarrell
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 7770

posted 07 June 2005 02:49 AM      Profile for rsfarrell        Edit/Delete Post
You clearly pretended to have read something which you now admit you didn't read. That's lying. And it's not the first time you've done it.

Pointing it out is part of the process of determining credibility. That's not abuse. Calling someone a "moron," that's abuse. You've already been warned by a moderator. I frankly doubt you'll be here a month from now.


From: Portland, Oregon | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
Peech
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 9272

posted 07 June 2005 03:10 AM      Profile for Peech   Author's Homepage        Edit/Delete Post
You flasely accused ne of being a liar (when you knew what I said was that I read the article on the book which YOU knew wasn't available) and then when I called upon you to explain your posiiton (the point of the accusation) you became personally abusive and acusatory which has been your record. You throw a stones then hide behind the forum.

I apologize (for taking your bait) and responding out of anger. Now let's move on shall we?

[ 07 June 2005: Message edited by: Peech ]


From: Babbling Brook | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Macabee
rabble-rouser
Babbler # 5227

posted 07 June 2005 04:50 AM      Profile for Macabee     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
Peech you might as well get use to this.
From: Vaughan | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged
Michelle
Moderator
Babbler # 560

posted 07 June 2005 08:11 AM      Profile for Michelle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message      Edit/Delete Post
quote:
Originally posted by rsfarrell:
Help me out, folks, I haven't been here long: Is this within the guidelines we are supposed to be abiding by?

Listen, you called the guy a liar. He called you an "ignorant moron". It's snowballed and now you're threatening him with banning (sorry, who died and made you moderator?) for a fight you participated in.

(And of course, Macabee has to come along and add his sanctimonious two cents.)

Peech, don't think I didn't notice that you started this whole thing between you and rsfarrell by saying that he "didn't finish grade school", that "maybe you can't speak English" and only THEN did rsfarrell call you a liar. Something I'm sure that Macabee, who sounds in his last post like he's condoling with a fellow martyr, didn't notice.

This thread has lived past it's usefulness. I don't feel like wading through the rest of the thread for a he-said-he-said play-by-play. It's nothing but childish sniping now, so I'm closing it.


From: I've got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell. | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged

All times are Pacific Time  

   Open Topic    Move Topic    Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | rabble.ca | Policy Statement

Copyright 2001-2008 rabble.ca